/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2167859]

Ask a drawing teacher anything.

[Anonymous No.2167862]

>>2167859
Where is that picture from?

[Anonymous No.2167863]

>>2167859
Help me understand boolean operations

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2167867]

>>2167862
Rendering in Pen and Ink by Arthur L. Guptill

>>2167863
I dunno.

[Anonymous No.2167869]

>>2167863
>understand boolean operations
TOP FUCKING FLIP FLOP

[Anonymous No.2167872]

do you teach out of necessity or because you always aspired to teach?

[Anonymous No.2167875]

>>2167863

yes / no

[Anonymous No.2167878]

Do you get to choose the stuff you teach or do you have to follow a strict lesson plan? Also do you tell your students about the holy father lord Loomis and Saint Vilppu?

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2167880]

>>2167872
I started out of necessity, I was not considering it before at all, but then I was really in need of some money and got a temporary job in a museum. There, I was involved in education by talking to the public and talking to my colleagues and boss. Next year I started giving private classes and it grew on me like a snowball and have been doing it ever since. I like it a lot. There are easier ways to make money and today I could drop teaching if I wanted, but I really don't want it.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2167888]

>>2167878
I don't teach in schools, I'm my own boss and only give private classes. Which is absolutely great because I can choose whatever the hell I want, but I also have all the responsibility for it. Each student needs specific things and so I tailor the exercises based on those. I use plenty of different sources, including Loomis, Vilppu, Hogarth and so on, but never by just following the books front-to-back, just about showing the students the images and speaking about it in my own terms, considering what I've read about them.

[Anonymous No.2167890]

>>2167867
;_;
>>2167869
>>2167875
I mean substractions and intersections of forms y-you pumpkins

[Anonymous No.2167891]

how do i git gud?

[Anonymous No.2167893]

>>2167859
Where did you learn? Do you haave a degree? If so where did you study?

[Anonymous No.2167901]

Show your work

[Anonymous No.2167902]

Are you happy?

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2167908]

>>2167891
Make drawing as much part of your nature as walking. Always be drawing, bro.

>>2167891
I learned from several places. I started taking it seriously when I was 13 and found a drawing teacher for myself. Later I got into college to study Visual Arts, but I'd rather not tell you where it is because I want to remain as anon as possible, I'm not from the US though. In college I've learned more about different techniques (painting, screenprinting, woodblock printing, sculpture, etc), not to mention theory and also a better understanding of the art world, contemporary art and so on, that I knew nothing about before. But the shared experience with my colleagues taught me even more about art, I think. Besides college I watched lectures and went to workshops about specific things and found great teachers there as well. One thing that helped me a lot is a place near home that has live model sessions every week and that I've been going for the past 3 years. And of course, practicing a lot by myself, looking at tutorials and other artists online just like anyone here.

But I'm not that great in drawing or anything, I hope you don't have that idea just because I teach. To draw well enough is necessary, but it is not the most crucial thing about teaching, I think the hardest part about teaching was to learn how to teach. That I learned in college and by working in museums.

[Anonymous No.2167914]

what have I done to deserve this?

Also how do you get into the industry when you don't know anyone?

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2167920]

>>2167901
I'll post something later on, I don't have anything with me in this pc and I don't want to redirect to my page here.

>>2167902
Sometimes.

>>2167914
>what have I done to deserve this?
wut
What's bugging you?

>Also how do you get into the industry when you don't know anyone?
You get to know someone.

I know there is a lonesome aspect to drawing, every person that draws is in one way or another "living with oneself". But really, I see a lot of people seeking to be recognized, published or shown without being involved and I don't think that works. It's important to get out there, to take courses, to go to museums, to watch lectures, to talk to other people who draw, to learn techniques that are foreign to you and so on.

Also, there is not one industry, there are plenty of ways to do art and plenty of scenarios in which you can work with. There are galleries and museums, but also there is grafitti, there is concept art, pottery, design, photography, comics and zines, editorial illustration, advertising, performance arts, cenography, etc, etc. And to get into any of those you'll have to know people who do it and to engage yourself in it. I also think one should be without prejudice and wander around all of those. Try to see from their point of view, there is always something to learn and even if you don't go that route later on, what you've learned will affect your production on another area positively.

It's not about circlejerking, even if that's a thing, it shouldn't scare you from talking to people. Being humble and genuine interested about what other people are doing in the arts can take you a long way.

My hometown is quite small and things really opened up to me when I moved to a big city. Just saying.

[Anonymous No.2167977]

what can I do if there is no life drawing in my city?
and this year i'll enter an engineering school, but I want to continue improving, any tips?

[Anonymous No.2168008]

>>2167977
>what can I do if there is no life drawing in my city?
It's always preferable to draw from life and of course live model sessions are ideal, not only because you have a person in front of you, but also because you join other artists and learn a lot from just being there.

However, you can still practice life drawing from all else that is around you. Not only you can have people pose for you, but you can also stroll around and draw people everywhere. It's a great exercise precisely because they are moving and not knowing they are being watched, you'll have to learn to adapt, to finish your drawing from memory and so on.

If that doesn't sound cool to you, use objects. The human body is a great subject, but figure drawing is not all about anatomy, but observation itself. You can learn a lot by constant practice with things around you (instead of, idk, just looking at drawing books and tutorials). Draw your pet, your father snorring in his chair, make compositions with fruits on top of the table, draw jackets hanging on chairs and so on. Find new ways to observe it, even try to start from different points and through different methods.

For these types of study, focus at 30sec - 10 min drawings top. Move quickly from one to the other, the activity itself teaches more than nice looking drawings. You'll see the nice drawings will begin to appear naturally if you continue to practice and focusing on the act of drawing itself.

In spite of life drawing, I really recommend the book by Sarah Simblet "Anatomy for the Artist" as it has great photos, great variety, great explanations. There are also a lot of websites that offer poses, but the quality varies.

If you want to continue improving you'll have to continue to do it. Drawing must feel good, you should relax yourself in practice. Instead of watching tv for that free hour, draw some objects on the table listening to music. A little drawing is better than none. Keep a sketchbook.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168009]

>>2168008
forgot my trip

[Anonymous No.2168016]

How did you begin teaching? You mention you started up some private classes, but how did you attract students? Where do you teach? How old are they? And how much do you charge?

Can you give a sample breakdown of a class? How long it is, what you cover, do you hire models etc.

What is the worst experience you've had? what's the best experience? What surprised you the most about the job? What is something that you didn't expect from the job? Do you recommend it?

[Anonymous No.2168030]

>>2167908
>when I was 13
>But I'm not that great in drawing or anything

So are you just being humble or do you feel you plateaued and just haven't really pushed yourself past a certain point. I imagine as a teacher instructing beginners all day doesn't leave you a whole lot of time to advance yourself.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168049]

>>2168016
I only do private classes. I advertised the classes on facebook and on a find-a-teacher website in my country. I was not betting on it much. I did not know that there were very few drawing teachers qualified here and since I posted along with some work of mine, I think it attracted some attention. The students came to me, but I have to say that for every 15 contacts only 1 or 2 really go to the classes. A lot of people also quit after one or two, for a lot of reasons.

The classes are 2 hours long and I charge the equivalent of ~ $30 per class. I go to a public library/park here and we get a table. My youngest student is 14 years old, the oldest is 35-40 (idk), most are in their 20s.

The first time I meet the student I ask them to take whatever drawings and sketches they have and we have a long chat on what they want with drawing. I give one or two exercises that I use to see what are their difficulties and strenghts. I arrange the other classes based on that. For example, one of them had real motor skill problems and I spent two months working with him on drawing simple shapes, seeing sillhouettes, identifying colors, etc. Another was an architect who already drew in perspective well, but had a very stiff style and wanted to learn how to do portraits, so I focused on anatomy, looking at books, copying from photos, etc. Recently a guy who is working on a mobile game wanted help with pixel art, so I studied pixel art myself to know it more in depth and we work together in the computer, and how to put his ideas onto the paper and then translating it to pixel art.

It's really a matter of listening, we have a conversation, I bring art history references every now and then and show them new tools that could fit what they want to do. Each class is unique.

cont

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168052]

>>2168049 cont
>>2168016
Worst experience was my very first class, I was nervous as hell and I thought it could quite possibly be awful, but on top of that I had a tooth ache and my pills were starting to lose effect, so at the end of the class I was in acute pain and went straight to the hospital afterwards. That student continues to this day though and we are good friends.

The best experiences are the small moments in which I've noticed I made a difference. One student telling me how much he can now observe colors he did not notice before in his daily life, or when they mention the way they applied something I've said three months ago, that sort of thing. Very good feeling.

Honestly, I did not expect how I had to re-learn all that I know. Some really basic things that we take for granted are actually new and hard to begginners. That's why teaching forced me to think of methods through which one could learn these things. The bad teacher would just rock a cool drawing and say "use perspective like this!" which would sound meaningless to the student, frustrating. Also, by doing some of these basic exercises with them I've improved my drawing greatly. It's true when they say you learn more when teaching it.

Of course I recommend it, I like it, but some people also went after me for tips simply because they want to make money with it and get done with it. It's very very easy to be a bad teacher, so I really just recommend it if you are willing to care about it. It also takes some experience, I don't think I'd be able to pull it off the way I do if I started out at 19, but who knows, everyone's different.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168061]

>>2168030
I guess I'm being humble, I don't know. When I was a teenager I was "the kid who draws" in my class, like I imagine a lot of people here are, but I did not take it seriously. In college, a lot of my colleagues were"the kid who draws", so the relationship is totally different and the healthy rivalry pushes you way further. I'm not the "best" draftsman in my circle of friends, but I understand that we are all "ahead" of most people (this sounds awful to say). We also have very different styles and interests, so you begin to value different things. It's not best-worst anymore, but how good you can develop what you have always been doing it. That's why I say I'm not that great in drawing, because the moment I say I teach people expect me to deliver on a certain standard of theirs. I don't know. I'm just some guy.

I've had a lot of plateau moments, slow moments, others of rapid progress. It's not smooth sailing and you also begin to worry about other things besides technique.

>I imagine as a teacher instructing beginners all day doesn't leave you a whole lot of time to advance yourself.
As I said to the other guy, teaching has taught me a lot. The days I draw more are usually days that I gave a class early on, it's inspiring.

[Anonymous No.2168071]

>>2168049
>>2168052
Thanks for the full reply!

>2 hours long and I charge the equivalent of ~ $30 per class
And you do private lessons? like one student per class? Cause that seems like really bad pay then.

[Anonymous No.2168098]

>>2168071
Yeah, I guess it's like $40, I'm adapting currencies. It's not much, I have other sources of income, but more than that and people won't pay for it. I really don't think it is a bad pay, but that's my standards, I wouldn't be able to tell. Later this year I intend to make a course with more people, rent a room and start something a little bigger with all this.

[Anonymous No.2168103]

>>2167859
are you the same anon from a couple months back?

how do i get rid of guilt for trying to learn a hobby, alongside my art studies? every time i sit down at the sewing machine i feel like i'm wasting time i could be life drawing or etc. it makes me anxious especially considering those janked 'draw every day for hours on end then 6 hours sleep' schedules people praise around here

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168104]

>>2168098
trip to confirm

[Anonymous No.2168123]

>>2168103
>how do i get rid of guilt for trying to learn a hobby, alongside my art studies? every time i sit down at the sewing machine i feel like i'm wasting time i could be life drawing or etc. it makes me anxious especially considering those janked 'draw every day for hours on end then 6 hours sleep' schedules people praise around here
I'm not the teacher dude who started the thread, but I can give my advice.

I think other hobbies are important to both mental growth and for being more well rounded. It's not an exaggeration to say that other hobbies help your art. In the example of sewing, you learn about construction of garments, probably about different cloths and materials, patterns etc. These are all things you can bring back into your artwork.

Plenty of the best artists of all time had various non-art hobbies too. And the whole "draw all day erryday" approach just leads to burnout. The people here who praise those are noobs who have never tried it and are speaking from fanciful wishing more than reality.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168153]

>>2168103
Yeah, I'm that anon.

I agree with >>2168123 on it.

You shouldn't feel guilty at all, not about sewing, not about drawing, not about doing something else entirely. One practice helps the other, specially things like sewing/drawing.

To move out of guilty is one of the worst feelings, if you're drawing just because you are guilty of not drawing, then don't. I also hate those schedules, I don't see how they are feasible to anyone. Some artists may work that much in a day, that's not in question, but when you put it as a goal like that you spoil it and you'll be doing it without passion. To take a schedule like that is a good way to start hating drawing and quit.

A lot of people want to know how to draw, but they don't want to draw. I wish I knew five languages and how to play the trumpet, but I have priorities and if I told myself to play the trumpet 6 hours a day, I'd only be frustrated. We are never lacking in time, what we have is priorities. If you feel like sewing, then sew with a light heart about it! Spend all day on it if you want.

You know what I do? I have an alarm clock set to 3pm that pops up in my phone with a message: "Drawing". I don't draw at 3pm, it's just a way to remind me to draw, to make me think "have I drawn anything today?" or "do you remember how important that is to you?" and that's it. Sometimes I don't draw anything, but the next day I'm reminded once again.

And there is no end to any of these activities. If you set yourself to learn something, then trust that the future you will know best about which practices were important in the past. I say this because perhaps drawing is on your way to master your sewing as much as vice-versa. Let the processes unfold themselves, just always be moving and doing what you love. You'll only know best when you look back and see how these processes formed who you are. I did not always knew drawing was going to be the core of my professional life. Experiment new things too.

[Anonymous No.2168200]

>>2167859
do you have to suck to be teacher? because i dont see why you woud be teacher if you were good artist

[Anonymous No.2168202]

>>2167867
>Pen and Ink by Arthur L. Guptill

where do i steal it? its not in the mega link

[Anonymous No.2168208]

>>2168200
Not OP but I get paid $50 per student (4-6 per class) to teach a 2 hour art class. And I'm in school for art, so nor pro yet, not even close. Generally manage to get 3-4 classes a week. Basically, you can make decent money as an art teacher if you are in the right situation. I imagine I could expand this business if it was my career of choice.

[Anonymous No.2168212]

>>2167859
is art one of those professions where you eventually end up being a teacher 50% of the time anyway? like history degrees.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168217]

>>2168200
Nope. You don't have to choose between making art and teaching at all, I didn't. And a lot of people don't see reasons to be a teacher, somehow people think it's less of a job, less challenging or satisfying than something else, I don't know, that's all prejudice.

>>2168202
I don't know, I've looked for it, but not hard enough, perhaps. I have just a few pages. Have another.

[Anonymous No.2168220]

what can i improve on? this was a 20 minute pose

[Anonymous No.2168223]

>>2168217
fug, now thats a must have book

[Anonymous No.2168224]

>>2168220
quit putting your shit everywhere

[Anonymous No.2168225]

Why are your drawings so shitty?

[Anonymous No.2168227]

>>2168220
Your proportions look way off here.

[Anonymous No.2168229]

>>2168224
>implying it's a bad idea to look for critique everywhere when you can
Guess who's not going to make it.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168232]

>>2168212
Not at all.

Teaching is a very broad field, specially for art, because it is not solely about formal work, but also about working in museums and libraries, giving workshops and demonstrations, etc.

But in spite of that, there are several things that you can do with art. Some of my colleagues are artists working on their own pieces, having exhibitions in galleries and so on, some of them are working on more technical aspects of other things like cenography, etc. You can also work in restauration and conservation, which is just a very interesting field. Some of them have taken more office-like jobs working for cultural institutes, arranging concerts, organizing other people's exhibitions and workshops and so on. There are also those who keep up with illustration, concept art and all sorts of design, working freelance or for companies. And finally there is an academic life of researching art history, mapping popular art, rescuing old techniques and writing papers about it. (There are also a lot of rich kids that have it easy... That's true.)

>>2168202
Have another.

[Anonymous No.2168233]

>>2168227
he had a big head
>>2168224
im in 3 threads. calm down.

[Anonymous No.2168249]

>>2168229
>I'm special, I'm just gonna jizz all over this board cause I'm a special snowflake who deserves more attention than the rest of the anons.

[Anonymous No.2168251]

>>2168232
keep the pages comming, i really like them, thanks

[Anonymous No.2168260]

>>2168251
those pages have been posted on this board before if you check the archive, i don't think op has the whole book

[Anonymous No.2168261]

>>2168260

[Anonymous No.2168262]

>>2168261

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168263]

>>2168220
In this cases, I rather have you tell me what you think you can improve and I can tell you how you can improve that. Because if you don't see it, me saying it won't have that great of an effect on you.

The way I see it, the individual parts look better than the relation between them, so that the head is too big for the body, even though it's far advanced for you to correct it. Our mind's eye have a "zoom" that changes with our attention. That's why I think it is more important to do more quick studies and gesture drawing to fix that early on. His right hand is barely developped, while his head is refined. You gotta ask yourself what made you do that, because somehow portions of the piece were more interesting to you than others. A good exercise is to shift your attention, balancing things out, focusing on the most convoluted parts of the image or starting by a place you never started. Ever tried starting the figure by the hips? The elbow?

But I like your drawing, you should just do a hundred of those.

>>2168225
Lol, you got me, posted that in the other thread. You tell me.

>>2168223
Have another.

[Anonymous No.2168266]

>>2168220
I'm not OP but here's my thoughts.

Basically you need to understand more where to simplify and how to unify the image. I'm coming from a more classical approach than you so you may not agree with going as far as I did in this direction, but hopefully you can still take some pieces from it.

Be careful of repetitive shapes like that series of small curves I pointed out. Also I would try to get more variety in your image in general--varying size of shapes, varying line weight and value, varying edges etc.

[Anonymous No.2168270]

>>2168266
Oh yeah, forgot to say that the comment "no sense" and pointing to those two lumps on the shoulder refers to the fact that you added an extra lump there. That's the trapezius so should be one curve.

As Harvey Dunn says: "Even if you think of it as design, it should be based on natural phenomena". Don't go inventing new anatomical features, instead work with what is there and interpret it in your own way.

[Anonymous No.2168271]

>>2168266
the original head looks so much better

[Anonymous No.2168272]

Can you draw anime?

[Anonymous No.2168284]

>>2168263
im lurking throughout the thread but I wanted to say that was one of the best critiques I've read on here. you have a real understanding of what his thought process might have been with the drawing, which makes sense since you're a teacher. I would go to one of your classes for sure

[Anonymous No.2168291]

>>2168260
THANK YOU VERY MUCH for posting these! Is there any other book on the subject?

[Anonymous No.2168293]

>>2168266

Can i have that brush pretty please?

[Anonymous No.2168305]

>>2168263

What is the best way to learn color theory and how to put this knowledge in a painting?

Btw thanks for your time good anon.

[Anonymous No.2168308]

>>2168263
ill do another drawing real quick and tell me if you see any glaring issues between the two drawings.

i could reply and give you a spiel about whatever but i think more examples would be better

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168311]

>>2168266
>>2168270
I appreciate the attention you gave to the anon's drawing, but I really dislike the redlining approach that I often see on /ic/ and that, in my opinion, does more bad than good. I won't enter on whether I agree or not with your points, otherwise I'd be doing the same, but consider the quote you posted:

>"Even if you think of it as design, it should be based on natural phenomena"
This is a great quote, but it can be taken to many places. Whether or not the trapezius is in this or that way as it is explained by any book on anatomy, why do you think that anon added the lump? Is it wishful thinking, imagining that more lumps mean more detail? Did the model move and the anon continued the line towards a different direction? Who knows. That's why the best advice I have is to observe why you do it in a given way, so that you can work the way you want it. It is best than to say one must do in a particular way. The hard edges on the shadow denote a perception of their contrast. The proportions, even if they differ from the books, are an evidence of the importance each element had for the anon at that time. There is nothing more of a natural phenomena than that very model on that very day, with anon at that angle and distorting the image in that particular way (because it is always a distortion).

The greatest thing is to observe the way you observe things. From there you can take drawing to whatever the hell you want. These little particularities of anon's drawing can be used in his favour rather than eliminated. When we talk about style, it is precisely this thing that survives repetition and that is articulated as an ability. How could I ever tell Egon Schiele to ease on the fingers? Artists who work from observation first (that is, on natural phenomena) develop their own ways to adapt their hand work to the way they are seeing things. Better than to fix details, it is more important to provoke one's sensibility and critical vision.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168322]

>>2168272
Not really. I used to, because that's what I was doing when I was 12, but then I stagnated. I tried this one time a few weeks ago from memory and it was hilarious, also very 90's. I could try harder someday though.

>>2168284
I'm glad :)

>>2168308
Sure, but when you post it, post your drawing along with the answers to these:
- How satisfied are you with it?
- What were the hardest and easiest things about it?
- What areas do you think that were more interesting? Why?
- Any specific point that you think you're having trouble with?

[Anonymous No.2168326]

>>2167859
What is my current skill level? What do I need to focus on the most to improve from here as an artist?

[Anonymous No.2168333]

>>2168293
Uploaded them a little while ago for a friend, here is a link: https://www.dropbox.com/s/e9hd0ccglre8xx0/2015.abr?dl=0

That specific brush should be six in and size 35. Hopefully that brushset is up to date and that brush is there, if not let me know.

>>2168311
Nice approach. I must admit that doing redlines is about 50% helping the other anons and 50% me helping myself by analyzing images, discovering where I would make changes, looking for solutions, and coming up with ways to explain my thoughts and decisions.

I usually try to present the paintovers/redlines as one option, and not an ultimate solution or the only solution. I think I mentioned it somewhat in the post about my coming from a different approach and therefore he should take what he can from my comment and disregard what he feels does not apply.

Anyways, to expand on some of your points, I agree fullheartedly with them and on observation, but I think there is a fine line to ride. We must be careful of recognizing when we are truly observing or whether we are changing and distorting things in ways that aren't true to nature or to ourselves. Schiele may have stylized his hands quite a lot, yes, but they were still heavily observed. Freud observed with the same intensity that Sargent did, yet htey look very different. All those examples were true to both themselves and nature, but I feel that it is easy to get into habits or ways of drawing that are not backed by this. A lot of that anon's drawings are shifted away from this observation I feel (this may not be the case, but it is the impression I get when looking at his work as he posts quite a lot of it). There seems to be too much a focus on stylistic choices rather than the intent behind those choices.

[Anonymous No.2168334]

>>2168291
not sure. here's the rest

[Anonymous No.2168335]

>>2168326
not him but I would say you're quite good, your brush work is interesting yet you know how to keep your edge clean/sharp. I like the bit of styling used here. The only thing is the neck seems a little weird, like the sternomastoid (I had to google that, I'm pretty sure thats what it is) shouldnt really curve like that. of course I might be wrong, I'm not sure what reference you used

what kind of brush did you use? just the simple brush tool with the wet edges setting on?

[Anonymous No.2168336]

>>2168333
thank you, will check it when i get home!

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168343]

>>2168305
I think the first thing is to experiment with all of the most basic things. That is, pick the yellow, cyan and magenta colors and a nice thick paper and then do all the variations you can get, taking notes and being organized. Make a yellow square, a magenta square and then mix them 50-50 in a square in the middle, etc. Think of it as meditation or therapy, put some music and really do all of these variations. It might seem boring, but it really pays off and you end up much more sensible to colors. Make several 50% grey squares and then inside them paint other squares in bright color, see how they jump to you. Make gradations, adding 10% each time of one of the colors. When you're done with the three primaries, continue to the secondary and terciary, but try not to use the colors directly from the tube (the green or orange ones, that is), but keep working with the minimum, just the primaries. Make a color wheel like that, start with the primaries, and go mixing them in between, it can have as many spots as you want.

This is a great exercise even for digital artists.

I think it's best to work with acrylic on those exercises (it's also cheaper), but if you're working with oil, try to practice with oil pastels. They work much the same way as oil painting, mixing on the surface, etc. They are also good ways to make miniature color exercises of your paintings before you jump to the canvas. Nothing stops you from using other media as well, a cool exercise is to take a photo with nice color range (grab one of those old NatGeo magazines, they have great pics) and then copy it as precisely as you can only with the yellow, cyan, magenta and black pencils.

When you are accostumed to mixing colors like that, not only you'll be seeing more variations (literally, you'll feel you see colors you don't see today), but you'll be faster when painting. You'll know if a spot lacks a bit of yellow and so on.

If you have more specific questions concerning colors, ask away.

[Anonymous No.2168345]

>>2168335
THanks, didn't realize I had any kind of style going, I appreciate your words. I was running out of steam with the neck because I did this in one session. I'd fix it but I'm just going to move along to something else. As for the brush, it's just the regular old 'hard round' brush with ellipse set to 50% and varying the hardness when necessary.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168346]

Anons, I'll answer you in a moment, I have to go for now and be back in an hour or two.

[Anonymous No.2168349]

>>2168322
>Fairly satisfied
>Hardest was picking values for background objects and making sure things that were farther back weren't too dark. Easiest was measurements and values of things up close.
>The contour lines for the flowers because they aren't just one big black outline to show something is close and are instead parallel lines that allow it to breathe a little better and not be as graphic.
>Not putting hard lines on EVERYTHING. Varying up shading between hatching and blocked values is difficult for me because I can do both but I don't always know exactly where to use them.

Specifically the sprouts behind the flower to the left. I started out doing them as hard lines for the whole thing when I should've varied it between block values and hard lines like I did later on in the piece for sprouts below them and on the left side.

[Anonymous No.2168352]

>>2168349
i fucked up the green text. how to 4chan

[Anonymous No.2168368]

>Sketching and rendering in pencil
by Guptill, Arthur Leighton

https://archive.org/details/sketchingrenderi00guptuoft

[Anonymous No.2168401]

>>2168345
>THanks, didn't realize I had any kind of style going
thats pretty cool then!

>I was running out of steam with the neck because I did this in one session.
Yeah that's pretty understandable, I personally tend to have problems with the neck and have to spend a lot of time getting it to look ok. Nice work overall

[Anonymous No.2168406]

>>2168349
getting sick of you posting your garbage in every single thread

[Anonymous No.2168410]

>>2168368
>not knowing the difference between pencil and pen

[Anonymous No.2168454]

>>2168406
Dude, relax. Other people from the draw thread posted here because the regular draw threads are an easy target for armchair non-artists to shitpost in. At least here there is a chance for getting a real opinion or advice.

[Anonymous No.2168493]

>>2168368
>>2168410
I think it's still a good book, relevant to thread.
I have the Pen and Ink book in PDF. I can upload it if someone has an account to mega or something.

Here is the torrent I downloaded it from.
http://bitsnoop.com/a-l-guptill-drawing-with-pen-and-in-q10898430.html

To the teacher: Thank you, you are awesome.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168546]

>>2168326
Do you have anything in particular that bothers you?

Do you work on paper as well? Even if you're only going to be producing digitally, I advise you to practice on paper as much as you can. Even though the girl has presence, the direction of your brush strokes could be developped to go around the form. Were you to caress her skin, what direction would your hands go and how would it roll over the muscles? Unfortunately, working digitally is not that inviting to experiment in that sense, in my opinion, even if possible.

>>2168333
I think what must be pointed out here is on style. The way I see it, style is what is left as a personal mark when you're looking at the world. It's not something you choose to do, but something that happens to you and you accept it, assume it, admit it. The more you repeatedly look at the world and register it, the more it will show up, because you'll be so comfortable with your subjects, you'll know it all so well that all that what was once minor and almost imperceptible to you will show up. That is, the velocity of your strokes, the way you fill your page, the colors you use and so on. That's how sometimes a minimal work, a single brush stroke from a master appears to have more strenght then the hesitant stroke of the begginner. I don't think Schiele tried to stretch the hands, he looked at the world in that way.

It may be so that the anon wasn't really looking, that he was taking prejudices on how he should be looking (and that's how it is most of the times, one of the things we dance with when learning to draw), but who am I to say it? Afterall, if anon is taking the vision of the other as standard, my word has an authority and by pointing out a problem, he will naturally see it as a problem. What if, instead, I asked him: are you really seeing it in this way? When I ask something like this, usually my students say "no, actually I know it's different, but I don't know why", and there I can enter on a more objective remark.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2168562]

>>2168546
>>2168333
Also, I posted Schiele's photo because I really like to see how artists often look like their pictures in some bizarre way. Look at his crooked eyes, the angular shapes. It's almost as if he couldn't have drawn in any other way than the way he did it.

And I know there is something really annoying about when someone says "this is my style" and settle with it. But you know, what of it? That's their loss. If you come to me and say "look at my drawing, it's perfect", I think I'll probably say "yes anon, that's perfect" regardless on what it is. That person is not interesting in looking, but in something else.

>>2168349
I like it better than the other. The jagged lines are working, but there are better parts than others, the upper flower looks less interesing than the lower one, I think, precisely because there is less variation to its lines, it's more clear.

You can use the hatching as a device to make it appear closer to you. If you use smaller, smoother hatching or just smooth blocking to the background objects, it will appear that they exist in the same world that you just can't see the details on the background thing, get it?

I agree with your observations. Also, don't you think that just saying that which you've said makes you think better about what you can get better and also about what has been working for you?

[Anonymous No.2168625]

>>2167977
Start your own.
Find 3-5 other artist friends - a mix of abilities and genders is good.
Post an ad on your local Craigslist-like site asking for models.
Two hours won't be much more than $30. Split 6 ways is $5 a drawing session.

FUCKING
PROFIT

[Anonymous No.2168633]

>>2168562
>Also, don't you think that just saying that which you've said makes you think better about what you can get better and also about what has been working for you?

if i get what your saying... yes talking out loud about what I want to improve on does help me sometimes. that's why i come here. dialogue is useful, if not just to work through your own ideas.

[Anonymous No.2168637]

>>2168625
>Two hours won't be much more than $30
Not true. It's gonna be likely double that, possibly more depending where you live.

[Anonymous No.2168879]

>>2168637
I live in a pretty expensive country, and I've paid as little as $31 to hire a model for two hours. The model was experienced and chose all her own poses. Shop around.

But I should have figured 4ch would be more interested in nitpicking minor bullshit details than in the advice itself.

[Anonymous No.2170288]

Hello,

I've had trouble with gesture for quite a while(largely self-taught). I think I'm fixing the problem, but I'm still going to take this chance.

You see, I can copy a figure's lines of action/movement just fine from a still picture or photo, but conjuring it in my head was really difficult. Recently read Walt Stancfeld, who emphasized the importance of story and clarity, which got me on the road to fix it. However, my characters are now very angular, since that's what I learnt to use to register stretch/squash.

My question is, how do I ease myself into using curves? I've read about CSI and am trying to learn, though my previous attempts at it have ended with me copying the model without creating a story in my head to go with it, so to speak.

[Anonymous No.2170364]

Hi OP, I am an absolute beginner and I want to get good. I have a month. On what I should focus? Drawing from life? Anatomy? How should I warm up? Any tips?
Thanks OP.

[Anonymous No.2170374]

>>2167859
Would you ever fuck a student?

[Anonymous No.2170421]

>>2168311
Red lines have helped people all of the time here on this board. Sure, you don't like it, but that doesn't mean that your large critique is even better than that.
Usually when a redline happens, the artist can see his/her mistakes just like when you mirror your canvas, "Oh, so that's what form looks like in the arm!"

Yes, redlining depends on the skill of the redliner, but most of the time, the redliner has more skill than the one who is being redlined.

Basically what you said in your post was, >"That's why the best advice I have is to observe why you do it in a given way, so that you can work the way you want it."
Usually, most of the time, life drawing is a step down from photocopying. You still must be able to accurately portray the object in a way that must be conceivable. Style comes second. The only way for someone to truly understand the way they are observing is to understand what is there in the first place. For example, >" The hard edges on the shadow denote a perception of their contrast."
No, the denote a novice perception of the way shadows roll over a form.
>"The proportions, even if they differ from the books, are an evidence of the importance each element had for the anon at that time."
No, it shows that anon had trouble comparing the head to the rest of the body, which is a good sign that his observation skills aren't quite up to snuff yet.
>"...why do you think that anon added the lump? Is it wishful thinking, imagining that more lumps mean more detail? "
No it means that anon has a mediocre idea of anatomy. He knows there's something there, and he might of observed two "lumps" but didn't make them subtle enough, changing the idea from a trapezius to an abstract form. It doesn't make sense.

Saying observe the way your observe things encourages very, very bad habits, especially for having trouble with observational drawing. It's better that we show "HOW to draw" rather than "figure it out"

[Anonymous No.2172856]

>>2170364
why do you have a month, what's the rush

[Anonymous No.2172863]

>>2172856
nothing really, it's more like a personal goal. I just want to see what can I do in a month, and in order to do this I have to spend my time in the better way possible, so I asked him what should I do

[Anonymous No.2172869]

Sorry for the long wait, not sure if I'll come back in time for another round, but we'll see.

>>2168633
Exactly!

>>2168879
>>2168637
>>2168625
I really don't know how much it costs, I guess it depends on a lot of factors. In college the students organized themselves and created a live model session in which anyone could draw and anyone could pose at will. Some people who were not too embarassed took the clothes off, others just posed with clothes on, most never posed at all. They still continue to do it weekly. If you have friends into drawing, one could pose for the other, it's another possibility.

>>2170288
Gesture is one of the hardest things to do, I've never had a student that did not complain about being "stiff", "slow" or even "lifeless" with their lines. To loosen up is very important.

I think one of the key things is to appreciate the practice rather than the final result on those gesture drawings. To go into abstraction just simulating what you see with your hand movements, to get dirty lines or disconnected lines, but that still carry the motion and weight of what you're drawing. Most of the times people want it all at once, to have perfect proportions and perfect movement and perfect rendering... I'm not saying you shouldn't strive for it, but at certain points, sacrifice proportion to get the motion right and practice it. Don't interrupt your drawing by bothering with an eraser, for example, just draw again on top of it, it's a sketch. If you practice like this, later on it will be easier to get each of these elements back together in a harmonious way.

cont

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2172871]

>>2172869 forgot my trip

cont.

A good exercise is to find a nice picture of a model and draw it in 10 min, then draw the same photo in 5 min, then 3min, 2min,1min and then 30 seconds. Do it one after the other non-stop, set a timer or ask help so that you don't have to worry about counting anything, don't look at clocks. Then, do another drawing in 30 seconds... But don't stop, continue it as long as you want.

The effect should feel like this: first you have time to look and draw as you please, then it begins to pressure on you and some drawings might end up really unfinished, but still seek to fit as much information as you can. In the last drawing, you'll see you're much faster and to continue on it will seem like a hell of a long time. The very first impressions on something must be felt as imediate as that. If you practice it like so, the curves will come to you almost effortless and you can take that knowledge to your drawings from imagination as well.

I love the theory, but be careful so that it doesn't weight on your head while you're drawing. Practice very quick drawings and the gesture will come out of necessity, because you'll be forced to simplify and move on.

Another thing is to practice with good materials. Don't use slow tools like mechanical pencils, use pencils or better yet, charcoal. Try to work bigger, draw on old newspaper for example. All of that can help too.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2172874]

>>2170364
In a month you can only get so far. Why the time limit? Learning to draw never ends.

The thing people who don't usually draw always ask is "where to start?" and what I say is: start with the whole, the generic, the broad and keep drawing until you get to the details. For those initiated, this is obvious, but it is important for me to point it out to you. This is the essence of sketching, you look at what portion of the page your drawing is going to take, and what are the limits of what you're seeing. For example, when drawing a full person, ask yourself how far is the head from the feet, where are the hands, where are the hips? Locate those, map them and point to those places in the plane of the paper. Look at generic shapes, is it more vertical or horizontal? Is this angle more open than the other? Is it straight or curve? Look at the uppermost point of the subject, to the corners, to the most far out places, the elbows perhaps, the knees... As you find all of those elements, go marking them on the paper and later go connecting those places. Don't get hung up on a difficult point, just give up on it, move to the next, then go back at it later and draw on top it the right way, don't stop when confused, think that you may have other priorities: the big shapes first, the obvious, the general form of it.

Draw anything. Draw from life: people, animals, plants, fruits, furniture, buildings, objects. Draw from photos: good photos with good composition and light. Reproduce labels from interesting products. Draw hats and shoes of all kind. Think: what am I looking at here? Don't name it or judge it in any way, just look and draw what you look.

cont

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2172875]

>>2170364
>>2172874 cont
To warm up (this is good for >>2170288 too):
First, warm up your eyes. Get up, good posture, hips locked just a bit forward, raise your head until you are looking perfectly straight. That's the height of the horizon line. Be relaxed and alert. Without moving head or body, move your eyes and look at your far right, almost 90 degrees right. Then slowly, really slowly, move your eyes to the far left, as if you were looking at the sea on a beach through all its extension. Then go back, always slowly. Then go up and down in the same way. Your eyes will jump from place to place, try to make it smooth. With time it gets better. It's a shame very few people talk about the importance of this.
Then swirl and stretch hands, elbow, shoulders in that order. To warm up the hands, grab a nice soft pencil and do fast circles, ovals, spirals. Make two straight parallel lines and draw a spiral inside making it a tunnel. Do hatchings towards all directions. Then repeat everything with your left hand, it will feel weird. Then, do it again with the right and you'll be surprised at the control you forgot you had.

Best book for begginners, imho: Keys to Drawing by Bert Dodson. But before anything, draw by yourself without any books. Find it cool to draw, enjoy it. Read this too: >>2168008. And yes, keep a sketchbook.

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2172879]

>>2170374
No, but never say never lol.

>>2170421
I really disagree.

>Usually when a redline happens, the artist can see his/her mistakes just like when you mirror your canvas, "Oh, so that's what form looks like in the arm!"
Observation compares the object with the drawing. The mirror compares the drawing with the same drawing from a different perspective. The redline compares the perception of one anon and the other.

You understand that none of us have seen what the other anon was actually drawing, so when we comment on it, the basis of what we say is what we imagine we would have seen. One is not looking at mistakes in relation to an object that is seen, but highlighting differences between the visions of two artists, while interpreting these differences as signs for mistakes. In this case, we enter a realm outside of drawing, but within psychology. One bit of arrogance here, a little lack of confidence there, a bit of a stretch to one's knowledge and you'll have a person always thinking the other knows better than oneself. This person will have a more difficult time later on, when one is alone with a piece, to see what looks nice and what doesn't, to see what looks like something and where they differ. The very aesthetic attitude towards the world may be harmed.

It's not that it cannot help, but there are downsides to it as well. There are schools that work solely through this method and in the end they have a bunch of people drawing the same way, almost like a canon.

Whenever we present a different way to draw to someone, whether it is a broad mindset, an opinion on style or a simple commentary like "this form is bigger", we must do so in a way that it is a possibility, not a restriction. "You may do it like this, you have this option, why not here?"

cont

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2172882]

>>2172879
>Style comes second.
I see how you understood this in that way, but I was really not talking about style there. First because I don't think style is any separate from observation. Style is not "included" in a drawing, and observation is not a given same for everyone. They bring one another.

Second because I was talking about how our prejudices and our preconceived notions of things are the ones that harm our observation. I was talking only about observation. The reason we are all not born with instantaneous photographic draftsmanship power is that we have other things to consider than just the visual aspect of it. Because we are always evaluating it and forming ideas on them, or we are emotionally engaged in it. We don't look straight, our eyes jump parts and focus harder on others, that's why there are inconsistencies and problems as you have pointed out. So to observe the way you observe things means to pay attention to how that happens.

There is a number of common mistakes in proportion that I always see, skull too short, angles that are not acute enough, etc. Because these are ways to see common to us all. Children have a series of symbols to represent their world and as adults we have a bunch of symbols too. To observe how to observe things is to learn their difference, to see, as you pointed out, that what you drew is not like what you saw. If you perceive a difference, you identify where it is. But not only that, when you identify where it is you try to understand the sensation of not being able to see it the correct way. Sit to draw in detail leaves on the grass or a bunch of shoelaces thrown together, something complex and meaningless and you'll see what it means to have your eyes jump around.

cont

[None !3RrwMIOAo2 No.2172883]

>>2172882
I think not only on how to make a good critique, but how I can make the person do a better critique of their work. I'm not only concerned with what is or what isn't, but what would be most helpful to others.

Bad habits emerge from being stubborn about something and not learning better when you get the chance. Most of the times, it happens when people don't observe how they are doing it.

[Anonymous No.2172926]

>>2172883
Thanks, OP. I surely won't stop learning after one month. Thanks again for the reply.