/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

[Anonymous No.2157448]

>Caravaggio painted "Boy with a Basket of Fruit" at age 22
>Rembrandt painted "The Anatomy Lesson of Dr. Nicolaes Tulp" at 26
>Michelangelo sculpted "The Pietà" at age 23
>Bernini sculpted "The Rape of Proserpina" at age 23
>Raphael painted "The School of Athens" age 26
>Turner painted "Fishermen at Sea" at age 21

How the hell did the old masters get good so early? Like holy shit what the hell did they teach back then.

[Anonymous No.2157450]

They didn't get gud fast, they started early. Nobody back then had the leisure of jacking off to anime and having no clue as to what they should do with their life in their early twenties.

[Anonymous No.2157454]

>>2157448
times were different back then. they devoted themselves to art completely from a young age.

[Anonymous No.2157455]

They were usually apprenticed around 13 or even younger and would be working on art as full time schooling. By the time they were about 22-23 they'd been working on their craft for nearly ten years.

Contrast that to today where we go to school for a general education until we're 17 or so and then can specialize if we're able to get into the right school. But even then we usually need about 2 years of more general education classes before we truly get to focus on the classes we want.

It boils down to what the answer has always been; time and application of effort.

[Anonymous No.2157469]

>>2157450
>>2157454
>>2157455
This. They had a lot of time to put into art and they started young and focused. However, it doesn't mean you can't paint as good as a master because you didn't start early, you just have to apply the same or more effort over the same or more time they did. You'd achieve that quality later in your life of course, if you ever come close to it that is.

[Anonymous No.2157473]

personal pro-mentoring since kidz, that's it, that's how education on human beens work, this is why our education systems are a fucking joke (specially public ones)

[Anonymous No.2157484]

>>2157473
well you can't really have it both ways. Old masters got gud (like literally the best there has ever been) because they were lucky enough to get an apprenticeship. Everyone else their age? Most likely pegged into manual labor for the rest of their lives.

The current system gives most youth an equal opportunity to become good artists (if they want it enough), but at the same time they will never devote the first portion of their lives to art as the masters did.

[Anonymous No.2157505]

>>2157448

Apprenticeship with a master from an early age. General rule I think was you get about as good as your teacher and then you are on your own.

[Anonymous No.2157507]

One more year til I'm as good as Turner at the same age.

I'm gonna fucking make it.

[Anonymous No.2157510]

>>2157507
haha good joke.

[Anonymous No.2157512]

>>2157510
You will see faggot, I'll put five times as much effort into painting as I did before (still not much lel).

I'm gonna fucking make it.

[Anonymous No.2157513]

>>2157448

Imagine having a master painter teacher who teaches you everything he knows about his craft, looks over your work and doesn't hold back in correcting every mistake you make, while you hone your skills 7 days a week from the age of 12.

That's how you git gud by the time you're in your early twenties.

[Anonymous No.2157518]

Do apprenticeships of this style still exist?

In fact, I'm just going to ask: who teaches a renaissance-style process these days?

[Anonymous No.2157519]

>>2157518
>>2150795

[Anonymous No.2157526]

>>2157512
Hope you're putting in at least 8 hours per day.

Godspeed if you actually are. If you're one of those 3 hour per week fags, then kek.

[Anonymous No.2157756]

>>2157484
this.

what is the old master equivalent of shitty anime drawings?

[Anonymous No.2157763]

They were apprentices from the time they were young children. By the time he was 25, Michelangelo had spent more than a decade working on art all day, every day, without stop.

You'd be that good too if you spent a decade painting, drawing, and studying for 8 - 10 hours a day.

[Anonymous No.2157975]

>>2157448
>How the hell did the old masters get good so early?

Because they had talent.

Something 99% of the fags on here don't have.

[Anonymous No.2157981]

How did Mozart get so good at churning out masterpieces (over 600, including operas and long-form symphonic/choral works) before he died in his early 30s? Did starting at age 4, having a father who was a composer, an older sister who was a child prodigy, travelling throughout Europe and studying with the some of the greatest composers of the era before and being accepted into the most prestigious musical academies all before his 18th birthday have something to do with it, or was he just talented?

[Anonymous No.2158241]

>>2157518
Even if you can't find an aprenticeship, at least Turner wrote a lot and worked as a teacher, so you can find some of his lectures and books on project gutenberg. The same is probably true for other great artists.

[Anonymous No.2158339]

>>2157981

Child prodigies aren't as common as you think. Beethoven wasn't a prodigy and he was every bit if not better than Mozart. Rembrandt wasn't a child prodigy, he didn't start painting seriously until 16 or older. Jans Lievens best friend all throughout his apprenticeships and who shared a studio with him early on was considered a great child prodigy. Who's name do you know? I consider Van Gogh every bit as good of an artist as picasso i not better. Picasso was considered a child prodigy (although his academic work never reached a high level), Van Gogh didn't start painting until late in life. All I'm saying is that being a child prodigy isn't essential for being one of the greats at all

[Anonymous No.2158435]

They didn't dick around with "Bargue" and "Drawing with the Right Side of the Brain."

[Anonymous No.2158436]

>>2157975
>implying you have talent
>implying youre in the top 1% of /ic/ skillwise

kek

[Anonymous No.2158437]

>>2158339
That's true that you don't need to be a prodigy to create great works, but plenty of the greats were prodigies. Bernini, Sargent, Alma-tadema, Thomas Lawrence, Schiele, Dore, van Dyck, probably a lot of others, but those are off the top of my head.

[Anonymous No.2158474]

>>2157450
Yeah but not because they didnt have distractions.
im sure the geniuses of today also dedicate large periods of time to their fields.
Hell man if i could id be hanging out with all the other richch folk during the renaissance, getting drunk off wine and fucking peasant girls.
Raphael and all them werent social retards or anything, just dedicated

[Anonymous No.2158487]

>>2158474
>fucking peasant girls
>girls
Heh

[Anonymous No.2158490]

>>2157448
nice collection OP, those concept artists are great!

[Anonymous No.2158496]

>>2158474
It was because they were social that they became good. They were in societies of other painters, poets, musicians, philosophers and general intellectuals of their time. We don't have that anymore. Everyone is too different in their ideals.

[Anonymous No.2158497]

>>2157975
Bones pls go

[Anonymous No.2159160]

>>2158436
Implying being better than the majority of /ic/ would mean you accomplished any fucking thing at all.

[Anonymous No.2159565]

They were genious. You aren't

[Anonymous No.2160221]

>>2158436
i don't count myself as a part of this shit board

[Anonymous No.2160229]

>>2157448
Nice! I'm not even in my 20s yet

[Anonymous No.2160233]

>>2160229
That's cute. Are you going to be an astronaut when you grow up, or just a master artist?
kek.

[Anonymous No.2160236]

>>2157448
Because they started intensive training from a very young age and mentored directly under other masters. If you started learning classical art 8+ hours a day from the age of 10 up, you would be on a similar level too.

[Anonymous No.2160254]

>>2157448
They didn't have videogames and porn to distract them.

[Anonymous No.2160259]

>>2158474
They also did not have the school system the way we have today. This easily shaves of a lot of your time.

[Anonymous No.2160272]

>not linking Sargent
I started at 19 two years ago and I've surpassed Carvagina and Turner. However Ive also had a ton of masters to learn from and many techniques, theories to read etc
Other 2 paintings hold up fine in todays world. Sculptures are probably the most astaunding tbh.

[Anonymous No.2160275]

>>2160272
Please post your work.

[Anonymous No.2160279]

>>2160275

[Anonymous No.2160286]

>>2160272
> I've surpassed Carvagina and Turner

I can't fathom how any serious artist can say something like this and mean it. Surpassed? In what ways? Your experiences really encompass and go beyond the experiences of these artists? Really? You didn't even know them personally, and even if you did what an absurd thing to say. Have some respect for yourself and your capacity to learn and gain new insights.

[Anonymous No.2160287]

>>2160272
>I've surpassed Carvagina and Turner
BAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

[Anonymous No.2160288]

>>2160286
I think it's the delusional green afro guy

[Anonymous No.2160295]

>>2160275
As If I'd post work thats linked to my name after bragging like an ass. Caravagoos painting has bad color harmony, some shadows are too dark, loads of detail everywhere, mediocre composition. Minor structural fallacies on face + he had perfect real life reference and still dropped the ball(by todays standars, for its own time it was really good.) Lot of the things are just copied from reality without adding artisting persona, clothing folds are crappy.
Berninis has levels skewed too much to the dark, bad composition, values, colors, rendering. He does get bonus points for probably doing this mostly from imagination though.
>moon is infront of the clouds
I can see/and have the skill, to improve both paintings

[Anonymous No.2160305]

>>2160286
>>2160287
Compared to the paintings OP choose along with the ages asscociated. If I was in same time period, I wouldnt be nearly as good.

[Anonymous No.2160306]

>>2160279
Funnily enough merc_wip was painted at age 21

[Anonymous No.2160314]

>>2157448
Thomas Lawrence painted this at 21. Oh, and he was self taught :3

[Anonymous No.2160316]

>>2160305
>>2160295

Literally no one believes you.

[Anonymous No.2160319]

>>2160314
Van Dyck was 19 here

[Anonymous No.2160320]

>>2160319
Sargent at 19

[Anonymous No.2160321]

>>2160233
A shit attitude like that isn't gonna get me anywhere. You might argue that it is unrealistic to aim to be a 'master artist', but I would be content with just doing art on a professional level, and mastery can then follow.

[Anonymous No.2160323]

>>2160316
I literally pointed out a bunch of their mistakes, even literally some of the literally subtler ones.
>Speaking for every single person

[Anonymous No.2160324]

>>2160320
Watrercolour by Zorn at 25

[Anonymous No.2160325]

>>2160324
Whit Brachna at 19

[Anonymous No.2160327]

>>2160314
>>2160319
>>2160320
These are much better examples than OP posted.

[Anonymous No.2160328]

>>2160323
You chose the worst painting of the 6

[Anonymous No.2160329]

>>2160325
Sargent at 15

[Anonymous No.2160331]

>>2160329
Sargent at 22

[Anonymous No.2160334]

>>2160331
Think he was 25 when he did this one

[Anonymous No.2160339]

>There are people who actually shit on Caravaggio and Bernini
Why

[Anonymous No.2160340]

>>2160328
I chose 2 of the worst paintings and claimed I could do better, then proceeded to prove my point by pointing out flaws I could see.
Comprende?

[Anonymous No.2160345]

>>2160295
Mixed up Bernini with Turner lol

[Anonymous No.2160348]

>>2160339
To be fair, the guy was complaining of Bernini's colour and value...so clearly doesn't realize which of the images in OP is Bernini.

>>2160340
Pointing out flaws does not mean you are able to do better. Any schmuck can find flaws in any artist's work if you look hard enough, that doesn't automatically make someone the best artist in the world.

PS: I feel like you trolling and people are getting caught up in it, but I just wanted to point out the hole in your logic in case some some noob here is reading this and takes your claims at face value.

[Anonymous No.2160358]

>>2160348
>Any schmuck can find flaws in any artist's work if you look hard enough
Incorrect
>Pointing out flaws does not mean you are able to do better.
Why do you think I stayed silent about the other 4?
Ive done better works than the 2 I pointed out, Im doubtful about Rembrands painting and Raphaels painting is years ahead of my skill, Im ignoring sculptures since its a different proffession. A person of sufficent intelligence, resources and mindset can create better artworks, provided he hauls ass for 2 years.

[Anonymous No.2160359]

>>2158339
Mozart was Beethoven's favorite composer (and Chopin's). Furthermore Beethoven's dad was a professional musician who Joe Jackson'd him into being a court musician at age 13, being the breadwinner of the family at age 16 and was receiving royal commissions by the time he was 19. Didn't even mention Mozart being a prodigy in the post, just that a lot of great artists came from an environment where they got started early.

[Anonymous No.2160361]

>>2160295
What do you get from doing this? The paintings from Caravaggio and Turner were both made before their careers even went full swing. Caravaggio was literally the most famous painter in Rome before screwing himself over which allowed Bernini to steal the light with his sculptures. Hardly anyone could beat Turner's imagination which knows no bounds.

[Anonymous No.2160364]

It is wierd that I don't like bernini, Michaelangelo, Sargent, Zorn, pretty much any roccoco artist, and I really don't care for Van Dyck or Rubens that much. They are great for technical elements like composition and rendering but something about them I just don't like.

I've had an obsession with Rembrandt for years. I love Velasquez also. And I like Raphael and Titian. I can't quite figure out why those artists appeal to me but those others don't. Maybe it's because they have a more intimate feel to their work. A little more introspective or spiritual.

What do you guys think?

[Anonymous No.2160366]

>>2160364

Maybe I'm attracted to artists who see painting as more of a medium to express an emotion rather than something to create a technical achievement

[Anonymous No.2160367]

>>2160361

Caravaggio's work is so theatrical that it can come off as cold and distant

[Anonymous No.2160368]

>>2160361
>Im getting paid for this
Entertainment value
Since you have trouble understanding the meaning of my previous posts, let me try again.
>I claimed that I surpassed these 2 artists on the context of the 2 works and ages OP posted
>I compared their time with todays standards
The main point was this, in context of our age
>A person of sufficent intelligence, resources and mindset can create better artworks, provided he hauls ass for 2 years.

[Anonymous No.2160369]

>>2160364
The thing about Rembrandt was that he was able to capture the actual soul behind the character. He painted the truth. Even as he paintings got more loose, the actual person was still there.
Shame we'll never see this masterpiece in it's original state.

[Anonymous No.2160374]

>>2160368
I have a hard time believing you but I won't say it's not possible.
I'm sure we can agree that all the artist are great though.


forgot pic
>>2160369

[Anonymous No.2160395]

>>2160358
just stop dude.
no one think you're better than caravaggio or turner, and no one will ever believe you.
if you post your work, you'll only remove any lingering doubts.
work on that ego and stop posting.

[Anonymous No.2160396]

>>2160395
You never know. Turner and Bernini were child prodigies and there are many more.

[Anonymous No.2160397]

>>2160396
Bernini is arguably the greatest talent/prodigy of all time. He also grew up in a time where art skills were taught younger and at a much higher level than today and he had ideal opportunities in terms of support and connections. That simply doesn't exist anymore. The chances of someone being on par with Bernini is literally zero.

[Anonymous No.2160405]

>>2160396
And I might be 8 feet tall with a 12 inch dick. I might have several gold medals from the olympics and 3 doctorates. It may even be that I have attained enlightenment, won the lottery, and fucked the queen of England.

[Anonymous No.2160408]

>>2160397
don't forget that his father was an accomplished florentine sculptor who studied in naples before moving to rome for work, including projects for the pope.

but I'm sure a braggart on 4chan has a similar background.

[Anonymous No.2160409]

>>2160408
>mfw the Pope told his father that Bernini has already surpassed him

[Anonymous No.2160415]

>>2157448
They didn't have as much not-art shit happening in their lives. They got their apprenticeships early, didn't spend as much time on generalized education, nor on leisure, and didn't have non-art day jobs.

[Anonymous No.2160416]

>>2160397

He saw art as a sport not something to express something genuine and real. I never liked Bernini. So you can sculpt marble, big whop. It doesn't matter if your personality is vapid and colorless

[Anonymous No.2160419]

>>2160416
if that is how he thought, it doesn't show in his art. some of the most emotionally powerful sculpture out there.

[Anonymous No.2160424]

Thanks, I want to kill myself even more now.

[Anonymous No.2160426]

>>2160419

Emotional, but only in the classical tradition. Melodramatic, Grandiose. Like a bad actor there's no subtly, it's all pointless bravado. His lot in life was to impress and dominate. He didn't give a shit about expressing something genuine and true. And it shows in his work. It's why other artists with skills that pale in comparison to his have ended up dominating the public psych while Bernini is only a household name in Italy. I think Van Gogh was a better artist than Bernini. But unlike you I don't think of art as a sport like football.

[Anonymous No.2160428]

>>2160416
Have you ever seen his work in real life? This one blew my mind: http://www.macleans.ca/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/bonarelli.jpg

It is handled so delicately and with so much love and attention. The forms of the lips and the gently curve into the mouth are divine. Photos don't do it justice really, it's quite unfortunate.

I think Bernini focused on getting the personality and reality of his sitters more than other artists of the time. He would have them talking and conversing while he sculpted. He would bring that life into the stone. He made the most subtle of details a part of his art. It is some of the most genuine and real sculpture in existence.

[Anonymous No.2160429]

>>2160426
it's baroque, it's supposed to be grandiose. I hardly see it as pointless, but different strokes for different folks I guess.

I wouldn't call Van Gogh better or worse than Bernini, it's apples and oranges, but I do prefer Vincent's work.

>but unlike you...
just stop pretending you how or what I think.

[Anonymous No.2160430]

>>2160426
>But unlike you I don't think of art as a sport like football
Anon wasn't even being foul mouth and you just shat on him. Come on. Everyone has different views into an artist's life and works, and many believe that Bernini was emotionally invested in his art. Thing is that it clashed majorly with his haughty attitude.

Arguably, the works he made during his older years were his most emotionally charged.
>It's why other artists with skills that pale in comparison to his have ended up dominating the public psych
That all deals with art being rediscovered and people promoting people they like. Baroque in general is too dramatic for most people to like.

[Anonymous No.2160431]

>>2160426
>ic doesn't know art history
>still think they know everything no matter how stupid they are

[Anonymous No.2160442]

>>2160428
God that story is fucked up.
>bernini fucking his worker's wife
>rumor spreading that bernini's brother is also tapping that ass
>bernini fakes a trip
>spies on his mistress fuckin his brother
>literally runs after him
>a zoo chase across rome
>breaks his brother's ribs
>orders a servant to slash up the mistress' face with a razor for having another
>mistress and servant went to jail
>brother got exiled
>pope lets him off because friends
>pope only punishes him with an arranged marriage with one of the hottest beauties in all of rome

But hey, nice bust and Bernini later got them out of jail.

[Anonymous No.2160446]

>>2160428

Maybe I'm just too protestant for Bernini. Aside from Raphael and Titian I never much cared much for the Italian Renaissance. Too much epic bravado. The priority was technical achievement which always seemed a little repulsive. It just comes off as a big lie. I just see Insane wealth, unimaginable luxury, obsession with the material, and shallowness. Basically the opposite of the values of Jesus whom they all supposedly stood behind.

[Anonymous No.2160447]

>>2160442
Yeah but that was normal back then. Caravaggio had a fucking long list of crimes and even murdered a dude, and just painted his way out of it.

[Anonymous No.2160452]

>>2160446
Don't lump in artist from the same generation together.

Both Bernini and Caravaggio break from your "mold."
>>2160447
Caravaggio was boss. Painted works to rectify that exile or whatever yet had to die like a peasant. He was also knighted which is cool. Like Bernini though his attitude was out the window insane.

[Anonymous No.2160461]

>>2160442
>>2160447
those guys were both dicks but Benvenuto Cellini was the biggest hard-ass of them all.

[Anonymous No.2160463]

>>2160446
>I never much cared much for the Italian Renaissance
early renaissance, high renaissance, late renaissance, or all of it? florentine? venetian? milanese? and bernini is baroque, not renaissance.

[Anonymous No.2160469]

>>2160461
Never really read up on the guy tbh.

[Anonymous No.2160473]

>>2160452

I don't like Caravaggio for the same reasons I don't like Bernini. The people in his paintings aren't real. Their just epic caricatures that are actually hollow when you look any deeper than the singular expressions on their faces. Like Bernini he was all about technical achievement, not honesty. Look at this painting. It's all fluff, there's nothing honest about it. Now lets compare that to a Rembrant

[Anonymous No.2160476]

Give me those drugs, Turner.

[Anonymous No.2160477]

[Anonymous No.2160478]

[Anonymous No.2160480]

>>2160461
Is that the dude that wrote an autobiography? I've been meaning to pick up a copy of it, sounds like the guy lived an insane life. I just got my copy of NC Wyeth's biography in the mail today though, gonna read that first.

[Anonymous No.2160481]

>>2160463

Things associated with the Pope

[Anonymous No.2160484]

>>2160473
>Like Bernini he was all about technical achievement, not honesty.
Talking out your ass, mate.
The reason Caravaggio was loved as much as he was hated was due to him being too honest and portraying cold reality. Maybe the grandness of Baroque is just not to your liking.

>can't post highres of his self portrait
thanks 4chan

I won't talk about Rembrandt since I already mentioned my views on him.
>>2160369

[Anonymous No.2160489]

>>2160279

Can someone explain this meme to me please

[Anonymous No.2160492]

>>2160484

Maybe you're partially right about Caravaggio. I forgot about that painting. I used to like Caravaggio quite a bit but I fell out of favor with him I guess. Still don't like Bernini though.

[Anonymous No.2160518]

>>2160489
It's been explained so many times, just check the archive.

[Anonymous No.2160520]

because they had nothing else in life
because they had good tacher
because they did it everyday
because its all they did
because they knew it would earn them a living if they could do it well.

[Anonymous No.2160559]

>>2157448
Having someone focus only on you, can speed things up to insane levels. I had a one-on-one teacher while learning spanish and i must say the ability to speed when the lessons were easy and slow down when i had difficulties while not being able to distract myself since the teacher was literally in front of me, made the learning process a lot more productive. Add to it, i was pretty into spanish at the time, so i was having fun.

So we have
>starting from a young age
+
>a good teacher
+
>one-on-one classes
+
>actually wanting to do what you're doing
+
>putting in the hours necessary
= an old master

I would dare to say starting from a young age collides with putting in the hours, they're dependent since it doesn't matter when you start, the learning process will take almost the same time, start young, produce good art while still young, start older, produce good art when you're older, start at 5-15, produce at early/late twenties, start at early twenties, produce at your thirties/early forties.

>tfw you will never have a good artist embracing you as his apprentice, allowing you to hone your skills while still a teen or even a kid
I wanna restart this level.

[Anonymous No.2160582]

>>2160480
that's the
>>2160489
guy responds to "post ur work" troll by posting merc_wip. troll then makes a thread pretending to be that anon and bragging like an ass in order to discredit him. it is now used anytime someone says "post ur work."