Drawing What You See vs. Drawing What You Know

[Anonymous No.2048204]

Pic related: Last photo drawing I did in 2011

I have been drawing for the past decade and a half now, through countless art classes, supposed "talent", countless hours of work, and apprenticing under a "master" artist, I was able to reach a point with my "art" that I could reproduce photos to a point where the first comment I would get from people was, "Wow, that looks like a photograph!"

It was at this point that I realized that this is an extremely uninteresting way of creating "art", and I was feeling very unfulfilled as an artist. I quit drawing fully rendered drawings from photographs to this extent in late 2011. I decided wanted to pursue imaginative drawing.

When I sat down for the first time to draw something from imagination, I was shocked. My drawing looked like it did when I started drawing 15 years ago. As if all the time I spend honing my "skills" just disappeared. As if I was no longer the "Talented" artist that all my peers claimed that I was.

After four years of frustrating terrible drawings, I finally figured out why I can't draw from my head. All throughout school and everything I've been taught has follow the same school of thought. "Draw what you see, not what you know." I created drawings by precise measurement, citing angles, breaking imagery down to geometric shapes, and comparing tonal values.

As it turns out, I was being learning to be a copier, not an artist. All those years of drawing from photographs, I basically hardwired my brain to no longer see in three dimensions. I did do quite a bit of life drawing, but since I saw the world in two dimensions, the life drawings were treated the exact same as drawing from photographs.

The false sense of achievement that I received from the praise from my peers and family put me under the false idea that I am in fact an artist. The statement that I am an artist is false. I am a copier.

(Comment too long: I've gotta continue this in a reply)

[Anonymous No.2048206]

If I want to be an artist, I need to spend my time completely relearning how to draw.I need to "Draw what I know, not what I see, so that I can see what I do not know."

Don't get me wrong, copying from photographs with a pencil isn't entirely useless, it's a highly marketable skill and will make people "awe" and "ooh" at you. If all you care about is people being amazed by your realistic copying skills, then by all means do so. It takes a lot less effort to learn how to copy than it does to learn how to draw.

My mentor makes $400,000/year making colored pencil copies of photographs of animals. You CAN make money that way. Does that make you an artist though? I think not.

If you want to be a real artist, please, don't make the same mistake that I did. Draw from life. Draw in three dimensions. Draw forms, not shapes, sculpt your drawings, don't mechanically produce them. Study anatomy, learn what makes up the human form.

If your art teachers are showing you how to measure what you are seeing to recreate it on paper, you're being taught to be a copier, if you need grids to create drawings, you're going to be a copier, if your primary source of drawing inspiration is photographs, you're likely to become a copier.

I had to say this so that hopefully I can prevent people who want to be artists from becoming copiers.

I know that people may have varied opinions on the matter, but copying photographs IS NOT art.

[Anonymous No.2048208]

just start learning some construction m8

also TLDR, just read last sentence.

[Anonymous No.2048212]

>>2048204
so is that a digital drawing? Imo drawing digital realistically is kinda pointless

[Anonymous No.2048213]

>>2048208
That's the plan. Construction and life drawing.

Also there was no way to get the right message across AND be able to avoid TLDR

[Anonymous No.2048214]

>>2048212
It was done entirely with an HB pencil.
I can upload a high rez if you need to see the pencil marks

[Anonymous No.2048216]

>>2048212
High rez

[Anonymous No.2048227]

To be honest, all you really have to do is begin studying whatever your drawing.
What are the major shapes? What are the details? Why are they there? Your eye knows how to look into extreme detail, but it doesn't know how to internalize it.
If you just took an extra step, I'd think that you'd get to where you want to be in no time.

[Anonymous No.2048233]

>>2048206
>know that people may have varied opinions on the matter, but copying photographs IS NOT art.

Preaching to the choir dude.

[Anonymous No.2048241]

I had similar experience, and now I am trying to draw from my imagination as much as I can, but I cant help to wonder how much real life drawings, imagination drawings and studying from books I should do? It sometimes feels like imagination drawings are enough, if I try to think how to make them better and compare it to others. Only time I need to see something irl or on picture is to learn how it looks like. And in books you only learn that there are some basics like form, gesture, light etc. and then you have to learn it by yourself anyway. Do you know what I mean?

Pic related, he only drew from imagination(I am not comparing myself to him)

[Anonymous No.2048249]

>>2048216
That hatching is sloppy as fuck, m8.

And that perspective is off.

You could've made a way more convincing copy if you relied on your mind instead of your eyes.
Coz let me tell you, eyes SUCK. Eyes lie to you all the time and hide things from you. You should take the information that your eyes didn't happen to lie about, put it in your mind and reach for it when needed ever after. Because fuck knows what your eyes will tell you the next time.

[Anonymous No.2048253]

>>2048204
It needs a backround.
Right now, the light and all is coming from nowhere, which makes it look like shit

[Anonymous No.2048258]

>>2048249
>>2048253
Did you guys just crit a 2011 drawing? lol.

[Anonymous No.2048260]

>>2048258
Yes

[Anonymous No.2048376]

>>2048241
>he only drew from imagination
That's just a rumor - don't remember if it was started by Frazetta himself or not.

Some of his paintings have figures that are direct copies of figures from paintings by other artists. He would also use photo references when needed, usually of himself or his wife. Nobody knows the exact percentage of his work that was referenced, but his referenced and non-referenced work was equal in caliber.

Realistically, he probably didn't use references all that often, but only when needed. This is arguably the correct amount of reference to use at all times.

[Anonymous No.2048389]

>>2048206

If you were learning proportions and angles and stuff, didn't you get a feel for the proportions of a human? Like, you said you did construction in the first post. So if you drew a lot of people, didn't that result in you having something of a memory of how to construct a kind of generic person?

[Anonymous No.2048622]

>>2048249
The perspective is off because I used a photo as a reference. I took the reference photo with a cell phone camera as well, which fucked the perspective. Also I don't want to make a more convincing copy.

>>2048233
Yeah seems so

>>2048253
The lack of background was my attempt at making the thing artistic. I wanted to focus on the subject rather than the space around it.All the lighting information was copied from the photograph. the photograph was from a cellphone image of a train on a sunny day. With a photo as a reference its hard to get good results.

[Anonymous No.2048627]

>>2048389

I didn't do a whole lost of drawings of people until about 2012, but my problem of seeing things 2-dimension-ally was still a thing.

This is one of the first life figure drawing I tried in 2012.

The forms are non existent and it's basically just a stiff outline of the figure.

I'm just now finally learning how to render forms by construction and knowledge rather than by citing angles and measurements.

And no even though I did do a lot of figure drawing, I did it the wrong way and didn't learn much about how to construct a generic person. I'll see if I can find an attempted construction somewhere. All my construction attempts were probably animu shit though.

[Anonymous No.2048628]

>>2048389

This what basically the work I was doing of people for photographs. It was enough to make people want to give me money for these things, but still i didn't learn anything from doing this.

[Anonymous No.2048629]

>>2048628
That portrait was from 2010

This drawing was one of my early attempts at constructing a human from knowledge in 2013. Its pretty clear that all that copying didn't give me much in the way of knowing how to construct people

It's total shit

[Anonymous No.2048631]

>>2048389

Even last year in 2014 I still didn't get it. This was another live model drawing where I was still learning incorrectly.It's a bit looser than the figure drawing from 2012. But I still didn't understand the fundamentals of real drawing.

Even today, my constructions of people are shit. So to answer your question, yes i could construct a generic person, but it was a shitty anatomically incorrect person.

[Anonymous No.2048643]

>>2048204
This exactly is why i'm never copying reference in my learning.

Many were saying that copying is the way to go, but I kinda figured out that it will never teach me to make my own stuff, only to copy.

[Anonymous No.2048655]

You seem like a conceited child. the fact that you're posting paragraphs on a topic that's relatively obvious as if it's a Tony Robbins inspirational speech is fucking disgusting. if you had even glanced at the sticky you wouldn't have had this problem. If you picked up a book you wouldn't have had this problem. if you had researched any professional artists you wouldn't have had this problem. No, you picked a pencil and presumed you could draw anything.

Actually read the sticky. learn about form and start with simple shapes in space. if you feel you're beyond that then g/l.

[Anonymous No.2048664]

>>2048655
I didn't have /ic/ when I was learning how to draw. I didn't even know 4chan existed. My purpose of this post was to share my experience and hope that people don't make the same mistake as me.

I know I'm not a good artist. I learned from a supposed "master" but even she just taught me that It was all about measurements and drawing what you see.

I didn't start coming to /ic/ until about a month ago. And of course I've read the damn sticky. I've got all that shit bookmarked.

This may be a topic that is obvious to a lot of people, but there are a lot of people out there that don't understand that this is an issue. Hence why the majority of school systems in America teach this way.

[Anonymous No.2048784]

You know, there was a similar fellow a few years ago with the same problem. I might even argue he was better than you, for he would copy color photos and reproduce them exactly. Then he ran into the same wall as you, he had to start from the bottom, and begin to relearn the skills required to draw original prices of art.

[Anonymous No.2048793]

>>2048204
Thank you OP for making this thread, I hope it steers some people in the right direction. I was going down the same human-printer path a few years ago. I'd spend weeks copying a photo pixel by pixel and my family and friends would praise me over the result, but it was a pointless effort, I was only doing it for the praise in the end.
True artistic freedom only comes to those who take the time to learn everything about the world.

[Anonymous No.2048797]

>>2048643
You're sort of correct, but copying can definitely help you learn new things

[Anonymous No.2048927]

>>2048664
>I learned from a supposed "master"

Who makes 400g a year

anyone on ic would sell their art soul for 1/10 of that.

[Anonymous No.2048947]

>>2048927
Very, very true.

[Anonymous No.2048980]

>>2048927
I guess it comes down to whether or not you want to become a human-printer for a living or actually create real art.

If you're only drawing for the money, then it is a hell of a lot easier to copy from photographs and has a hell of a lot small learning curve. Copying photos is a mechanical process and real drawing is a creative, constructive process.

If money is fulfilling to you, then by all means, take the path of a copier. you will wow people with your amazing copying skills. But know you wont be actually creating art.

Also that $400,000/year isn't all pocketed. It goes into paying employees and running her business too

[Anonymous No.2048981]

>>2048793
Yeah I feel like if people saw the process it took to duplicate photos with a pen or pencil, I think they would be a lot less amazed.

Using grids, measurements, etc, the process is nothing to be amazed at.

[FiRez !!tndrCZJHE+I No.2049016]

I know this will make sound like an asshole but I honestly just want to offer a counter argument, based on my experience.

It blows my mind that people can copy extremely well without taking out something useful from said copies, I say this because I feel that doing studies as close as possible has taught me a considerable number of things: Skin tone, texture, how a subtle terminator can make a form pop out and in some cases make a feature much more characteristic/relatable, hair rhythm, get a sense of core shadows, metal reflections, material textures, etc...

While I copy from life or from a photo, I try to relate the area I'm trying to depict with something I've seen in the past, sometimes this allows me to push or change for the better the source material. Even in failed studies I can definitely say that I have learnt something of value,

Left piece is a study I did from a photo and right one is something I did entirely from imagination. Some people may argue that the right piece took me eons and it is shit but I had a strong sense of what I wanted to convey and I think I achieved most of it.

I can understand OP's frustration but to me copying as close as possible can have a value for imaginative drawing.

[Anonymous No.2049020]

copying from reference is a great way to-learn how something works, but you have to focus on internalizing what your looking at. you can't just copy it you need to study it's composite shapes, understand the angles, look at many photos of the same thing. Then after drawing it a few times from ref draw it from your head

[Anonymous No.2049021]

>>2049016
>>2049020
these niggas know what's up

nice dragon bitch bruh

[Anonymous No.2049022]

>>2049016
Then why do you still suck so bad?

[Anonymous No.2049034]

>>2049022
u jelly?

[Anonymous No.2049402]

taking advice from firez, shiggy diggy

[Anonymous No.2049424]

>I know that people may have varied opinions on the matter, but copying photographs IS NOT art.
It can be. Unless you're saying that
>it is not true that all things that were copied from photographs are art
but that should have been obvious from the start.

Anyway, I'm saying that it's entirely possible to be an artist even if you seriously suck at drawing humans from imagination. M.C. Escher could never pull that off, and I'd definitely call him one. "Art" isn't a skill, it's a convenient category for things artists produce. If you manage to use your finely honed photocopying skills to produce something that people find MEANINGFUL, and not just an impressive display of photocopying skill, you have created art. If you do this often, you will probably be called an artist.

Copying things that you see can be a useful skill. It's not the ONLY worthwhile skill you can learn, but again, that shouldn't really have come as a surprise to anyone.

[Anonymous No.2049432]

>>2049402

[Anonymous No.2049438]

>>2049432
HA HA, WELL MEMED FRIEND YOUR SO FUNNY
XD XP x^D 8)

[Anonymous No.2049442]

>>2049438

[Anonymous No.2049444]

>>2049442
8D YOU ARE LE KILLING ME LE LOL

[Anonymous No.2049446]

>>2049444

[Anonymous No.2049450]

>>2048216
wow! that's awesome and expresses how I felt about realism drawing when I started. Drawing from the imagination is rewarding, and if you keep in mind that everything you're putting down is perfect (for the current conditions[age,skill,etc])
art is much easier when we aren't comparing ourselves to other people. But this is just my point of view

also, putting meaning and emotions into a piece helps steer it when I'm drawing
>>2048793
I like that


pic somewhat related, but not mine

[Anonymous No.2049458]

>>2049020
Just how exactly does one begin to understand the subject they're copying though? If I draw a thousand hands a day but don't pay attention and the next day see without a reference I can only create stick limbs, what am I doing wrong? What's so critical about learning as you imitate that you couldn't gain by say, staring at a hand or diagrams for them on hours on end, learning anatomy down to the bone and trying your hand at it than?

I'm asking because why aren't Doctors and Medical experts who can name every single little nook and cranny in the human body expert artists as well?

[Anonymous No.2049469]

>taking advice on drawing from imagination from FiRez

[Anonymous No.2049483]

>>2048204
>>2048206
Reading your tale, you learned how to draw what you saw without the knowledge of what is underneath, like why does the train is in this position and its cabin looks smaller while the front looks huge or why the shadows/reflections work this way a.k.a you skipped the basics and went straight for the finished product, so of courshe when you try to do something from imagination you suck at it, you don't have the tools to construct something without seeing it finished first.

>If your art teachers are showing you how to measure what you are seeing to recreate it on paper, you're being taught to be a copier, if you need grids to create drawings, you're going to be a copier, if your primary source of drawing inspiration is photographs, you're likely to become a copier.

No. Measuring is one of the best ways to aproach life drawing and making sure your drawing is up to proportion also inspiration =/= copying a photo see: >>2049016 and >>2049020

Yes you can learn a great deal copying but not when all you can do is copy, OP seemed to not know how construction works, copying while not knowing how your subjects work will lead you to cap your skills and you can only advance further going back to the beginning and learning the basics.

tl:dr op skipped the basics, nothing to see here people, since one of /ic/'s moto is "Learn the fucking fundamentals".

[Anonymous No.2049515]

>>2049016
>I had a strong sense of what I wanted to convey and I think I achieved most of it.
You mean like the lifeless doll face expression you do in every portrait?

[Anonymous No.2049544]

>>2049515
why do you think you have the right to take a dump on his work when you're too chicken to post your own ?

[Anonymous No.2049550]

>>2049544
I do, I just don't tripfag

[Anonymous No.2049553]

>>2049550
he posts his controversial opinion about art and decides to show his work alongside so everybody can make their own opinion on his credibility. You talk shit for no reason and don't post anything to back it up, you're a little coward that's all

[Anonymous No.2049555]

>>2049553
Not that anon, but it's not for no reason. I thought shitting on Firez was a meme until seeing enough of his imaginative work. He often struggles with very basic anatomy.

[Anonymous No.2049556]

>>2048249

post something you did four years ago

[Anonymous No.2049559]

>>2049555
and so people can look at his work and decide on themselves whether his opinion is worth taking into consideration or not. nobody needs the hate bandwagonning. Also, if you're not allowed to voice your opinion if you struggle with anatomy, we might as well close down the board

[Anonymous No.2049560]

>>2049559
I didn't say he wasn't entitled to his opinions. It's just more or less why no one except absolute beginners should "be jelly."

[Anonymous No.2049571]

>>2049553

I think the issue here is that some of us have actually done this for long enough that we see people making the same mistakes over and over. As you improve you will inevitably look back at art that you used to think was good and you will ask yourself "what was I smoking back then, how could I not see how bad this is?" That's straight up Dunning Kruger effect for you, it is very real, and so we're trying to help you and say dude don't take advice from firez he doesn't even know what he's doing himself trust us, one day you will understand. But people just think it's just part of the 4chan hate machine, or we're being jelly or something. Either way that's just my two cents, you can take it or leave it.

[Anonymous No.2049575]

>>2049553
>>2049559
I never said that his opinion was invalid, I just said his portraits were shit

[Anonymous No.2049581]

>>2049571
>>2049575
I give up, what's even the point ? you're convinced you're the voice of reason and that you don't need to prove yourself because other people on /ic/ said so

[Anonymous No.2049582]

>>2049581

I'm not who think you're replying to, there's more than one person in this thread

[Anonymous No.2049584]

Man, I wish I was as shit as Firez /s

[Anonymous No.2049599]

>>2049584

It's easy when you're Firez.

kek

[Anonymous No.2049600]

>>2049584
You must be pretty new if you're impressed by these, especially considering how long they take.

[Anonymous No.2049644]

>>2049584
FiRez pls go.

[Anonymous No.2049845]

>>2049581
I'm >>2049575
>>2049515

[Anonymous No.2049889]

>>2049584
So is Firez the new funny banana image?

[Anonymous No.2050584]

>>2048204
Start with perspective made easy as it makes you draw in 3d space from imagination and is really easy to follow. When you're done with that go trough fun with a pencil and pay attention to what Loomis is saying, also do not copy the faces in the book draw your own. Michael Hampton design and invention is the last book and is more complex but not too hard if you go though the books in order. Do not rush through any of the books and pay attention to every page.
I had a hard time as well but these books really helped me to think in 3d and draw from imagination so just keep drawing anon.

[Anonymous No.2050719]