/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

[Anonymous No.1804274]

"Oh, anon. You can't do this yet, you're not skilled enough yet."
"But I have been doing these for about three hours a night, they're not the basics? They are not the fundamentals?"
"Just do whatever feels natural."
Thanks for the useful advice, cunt.
You guys seem to know what you're doing, what stage would you say I'm at? I was under the impression that this was the start.

[Anonymous No.1804276]

I already have been getting books online, like loomis and stuff. They all seem to start here.

[Anonymous No.1804277]

Beginner of beginners

You're full symbol mode, i.e. drawing what you think the element looks like, instead of what you're actually seeing.

[Anonymous No.1804280]

Have you gone through keys to drawing or that other one with the pseudo-science?

[Anonymous No.1804284]

>>1804277
I thought I broke it down into tubes and boxes... Did I fuck it up?

[Anonymous No.1804285]

>>1804280
I haven't done either of those I think, I''m reading a Hampton book right now.

[Anonymous No.1804298]

>>1804285
There is no visible trace of Hampton in that.
>>1804284
I don't see any cylinders, and only one box that isn't even in perspective. Not to mention, the proportions are off, the angles are off, and it's stiff as hell.

Work through RSotB's workbook or Keys To Drawing before Hampton.

[Anonymous No.1804299]

>>1804298
I just started to read it.
Plus, I actually have been trying to learn to draw for a while, two hours a day. SUPER fucking hard.
I think I might buy a god damn tutor.

[Anonymous No.1804305]

>>1804285
you should do them, and read the sticky too. the sticky is as hand-holding as it gets.

[Anonymous No.1804306]

>>1804274
at that stage it's better just practice a lot. anyway i'd recommend nicolaides: it's VERY time consuming, but you'll be at the next level when finished.

also take with a grain of salt comments here, e.g >>1804277 knows shit

[Anonymous No.1804310]

>>1804274
you're getting caught in trying to trace the outline too much instead of shaping the 3D forms together, happens to a lot of ppl. Also try to use less strokes in the early stages and make each line more or less deliberate. You'll find that with fewer lines, you'll get more of the important contours down quicker and get your hand-eye coordination fluid.

[Anonymous No.1804312]

>>1804299
>two hours
If you're serious, might want to increase that amount.

I spend 2.5 hours alone on quick gestural/figure drawing a day.

[Anonymous No.1804313]

>>1804306
Do explain how >>1804277 is wrong.

[Anonymous No.1804330]

[Anonymous No.1804333]

>>1804313
well it's not symbol drawing at all for one thing..it's just really confused and inaccurate.

[Anonymous No.1804338]

>>1804333
If that's not symbol drawing then I have no idea what it means.

If you look at the left arm and right left for example, OP drew them 100% wrong. They're using shapes that are technically not necessarily wrong in themselves, but they're completely wrong in this pose and context and do not represent the reference at all.

[Anonymous No.1804349]

>>1804333
Brother, that is most definitely symbol drawing

[Anonymous No.1804403]

>>1804349
no it isn't. i think you may be confusing the flatness for symbol drawing.

symbol drawing is where you draw a symbol, that is a design, a sort of glyph that represents the named feature.

this would be a symbol drawing of the OP, note the symbolic round breasts, the symbolic 'bits that stick out' fingers, the 'hair is lots of long things' etc.

the OP is trying to represent the visual reality he just sucks at it.

[Anonymous No.1804408]

>>1804403
Not him, but it seems to me that is very well a case for Symbol Drawing.

[Anonymous No.1804412]

>>1804403
Not even one of those two Anons, but "flatness" isn't the only thing that's wrong with OP's photo.

OP isn't even bothering trying to draw what the model actually is; he's just drawing a leg bent, arm upwards, etc without actually having look the model objectively in terms of form, degree, negative space, perspective, length, etc etc that you would note in observational drawing.

That's a good example of symbol drawing there, buddy. There's a difference between being poor at observational drawing (which practice will help), and not knowing how to look and draw a model objectively and observationally (which practice would not help until he learns how to see and construct correctly.)

[Anonymous No.1804422]

>>1804408
well you are incorrect. i don't know if you're a bunch of filthy noobs or what. but if you can't see the difference between what is clearly an [unsuccessful] attempt at breaking down form by a newbie who just hasn't got very good observational or spacial skills [yet, hang in there buddy] and spaghetti hair and circle boobs you're freakin' dumb as shit.

symbol drawing isn't bad, inaccurate, poorly constructed, flat or wrong drawing. it's drawing with symbols, that's why they call it symbol drawing.

boxes, tubes, spheres and a line of action are not symbols no matter how off target they may be.

if you're still unsure of the difference after all my ranting and the perfectly clear diagram then you're too stupid or noobgay to use the phrase, so shuddup.

[Anonymous No.1804430]

>>1804422
I'm not that guy and I want to agree with you but a question still comes to mind.

What would you tell him to remedy this?

I see it as actually forgetting about the techniques that he's trying to learn and draw what he sees, but that would go for symbol drawing.

This to me is like advance symbol drawing, art book symbol drawing.

OP If you like to learn how to apply the techniques correctly I would suggest you use them on top of the image instead of the image itself.

See how the techniques work on your model and then you should tackle something like this.

[Anonymous No.1804431]

>>1804422
I'm only going to reply to you once, that right there is a case of Symbol Drawing as you can see on the OP the neck is not a venturi, the head does not have a beak like chin, the arms are not sausages, the midriff is not a literal hour glass. These are all symbols, not forms. I see that he attempted to draw a box for the Torso but he is using it incorrectly you think of the corners of the pelvis to help you with the perspective as well as the direction the pelvis is in space.

[Anonymous No.1804445]

>>1804431
>box for the Torso
kek I meant pelvis

[Anonymous No.1804509]

>>1804274
>what stage would you say I'm at?
Beginner
>I was under the impression that this was the start.
The start imho is building line confidence + learning to draw 2d shapes/contours accurately and should be done from life

[Anonymous No.1804515]

>>1804509
>learning to draw 2d shapes
>2d shapes
Uh...

[Anonymous No.1804556]

>>1804431
Not that guy, but I don't think it's symbol drawing either. It seems to me he just did a poor job of trying to simplify and do a sort of gestural drawing. I mean, there are symbol type stuff there, but I don't think this is an entirely important distinction to make in OP's case; I think either way his problem would have the same solutions, just considering the general level he seems to be at.

>>1804274
OP, I might suggest you take your reference image and make it lower opacity, then on another layer, draw the gesture over it, measure proportions while keeping perspective in mind, simplify the forms into boxes and cylinders, draw cross-contours, and other such things. Then it'll be easier to compare that to your drawing. This kind of analysis is probably only useful after learning the basics of perspective and gesture though. The more knowledge you have, the more points of reference you'll have when analyzing and comparing your image. You shouldn't really trace very much, but I think it can be helpful. Also, I would only suggest you do it after you try to draw it normally.
Not sure if this is good advice, but it's something that has helped me

[Anonymous No.1804559]

>>1804330
dont redline, just overlap his drawings with the photo.

[Anonymous No.1804568]

Does it really matter whether he's symbol drawing or not? Either way he has to do the same things to improve.

[Anonymous No.1804569]

>>1804515
Gotta learn how to copy basic shapes and proportions before delving into forms bruh.

[Anonymous No.1804570]

>>1804568
Yes because one of the first things you should learn is to stop symbol drawing. Otherwise his practice/studies will ultimately be pointless.

[Anonymous No.1804573]

>>1804569
Again,
>2d
>shapes
He needs to learn how to draw 3d prisms. The opposite of what you're telling him.

You can't draw form if you can't draw basic prisms.

[Anonymous No.1804579]

>>1804573
Not that anon - learning to draw shapes and focus on things such as negative space, and contour is important, it improves all kinds of shit like accuracy, line, and one's ability to see angles. Basic 3D forms are probably one of the most vital keys to drawing, but I'd highly recommend starting at the very beginning to save time down the line.

[Anonymous No.1804584]

>>1804573
I'm a new anon, not the one that originally suggested the 2D shapes. This anon >>1804579
summed it up nicely though. Learning to copy shapes accurately is a necessary first step to observational skills. Trying to tackle forms before you can copy basic shapes is like trying to tackle color before you can handle value. Focus on the bottom and work your way up the ladder of technical skills.

[Anonymous No.1804588]

>>1804274
Avoid zooming in so much when drawing shaped or you'll keep getting abysmal proportions like those. I mean the whole body is off BUT LOOK AT THAT FUCKING NECK ESPECIALLY!

You may need to find what the coil technique is and use that for a while to assist with foreshortening. Because it looks like you didn't even hope to get her right thigh correct.

[Anonymous No.1804591]

you're not drawing tubes or boxes

your drawing scribbles and scribbles

what you're drawing is 2D shapes, not 3D form

[Anonymous No.1804597]

You need to stop drawing figures and start drawing primitives in perspective

[Anonymous No.1804937]

Ok, so I guess I'll order keys to drawing and spend about five hours a day drawing boxes and shapes in general.
Thank you, this helps immensely.

[Anonymous No.1804939]

>>1804937
Just pretend it's actually there.

[Anonymous No.1804947]

Anon, 95% of questions you will have when you are a beginner can be answered by drawing more. In a few months or so you're gonna look back on whatever hangup you have and laugh or cringe.

Learn perspective, draw a fuck ton from life so you can better get proportion control and a feel for form and just draw more.

[Anonymous No.1804954]

Ok, you're still at the symbol drawing stage. You have no sense of form, scale or perspective. I'm sure it's been suggested you start drawing simple forms in space - and that's a good start. Make sure you aim for PROPER angles. Once you're able to lay your basic forms down in space properly, star doing some twisting and bending with the robo bean IN SPACE.
It sounds boring as fuck - I know, but even within half an hour you should really start understanding form and its usefulness (as well as geometry)!

Also study human proportions as the same time.

[Anonymous No.1804956]

>>1804568
Kind of hard to draw an eye from the side if you know it's just an oval with a circle in it.

[Anonymous No.1804960]

>>1804954
I want to add on to this, since I forgot to earlier. When drawing the robo bean, remember that while the viewer has ONE horizon line, the figure twists and tips. Which means the torso of the robo bean has its own horizon line separate from the viewer's eyes and the pelvis, and everything else. So when you're practicing robo bean, remember that you are not forced to use that horizon line for each object - if you try to, it'll look fucking retarded and make no sense to your eyes. Took me so fucking long to realize that since none of the perspective books I have cover that shit.

[Anonymous No.1804970]

>>1804960
If none of your books covered it, how did you figure it out?

[Anonymous No.1805012]

you're jumping too far ahead.

pic related

[Anonymous No.1805014]

>>1804970
He figured it out by drawing more and thinking about his problems. The stuff that you learn from books isn't a dogma, the vast majority of what you learn is gonna be through trial, error and sheer volume of work. You gotta keep drawing until you can get it right.

[Anonymous No.1805020]

>>1805012
That's the optimal way of doing things but it's not a healthy one. Doing things like that is going to kill all inspiration and enthusiasm person has. It's a good priority list but the best way to learn is to do what you want to be able to do (animation, char design, illustration and what have you), with a mix of studies on the side to fix the problems that you have.

[Anonymous No.1805027]

>>1805020
that is a list for studies

one should always seperate studies from personal work

[Anonymous No.1805118]

>>1804960
>has its own horizon line separate from the viewer's eyes and the pelvis, and everything else.

you just blew my mind

[Anonymous No.1805500]

So by studying primitives, you mean doing exercises like this right?

Drawing has been the only thing to actually test my will. Cooking was easy to learn, lost fifty pounds without a sweat; I hit a fucking brick wall with Drawing,though.

[Anonymous No.1805536]

>>1805500
Dude, cubes basically consist of parallel lines.

Every set of parallel lines shares a vanishing point.

[Anonymous No.1805539]

>>1805536
I thought that changes with perspective, though.

[Anonymous No.1805540]

>>1805500
The whole front planes of the boxes that you "feel" are wrong are fully visible, yet you see both a side and top plane, which is generally impossible. If you can see two side planes all horizontal lines converge.
I recommend reading Rapid Viz, it's a really short and simple perspective book.

[Anonymous No.1805542]

The human figure and animals in general should not be considered basics (they are fundamentals for being a good artist but they are super complicated subjects), if you are starting out, best to begin with still life and simple/inorganic objects, build up from there.

Some advice for this particular exercise, after you have completed your study, overlay the photo on top of it so you can see exactly how and where you fucked up.
Write down a few notes on what you can improve.
Redraw it and make sure you hit those points.
Move on.

[Anonymous No.1805545]

>>1805540
I will, thanks.
>>1805542
That's what I have learned from this thread. I'll be back when I can draw a fucking cube.

[Anonymous No.1805563]

>>1805539
I'm not entirely sure what you mean by that.

Perspective basically means that shit looks smaller the further away from you they are, right? that's that vanishing points are. If you keep placing cubes one next to another, they'll eventually disappear from your sight because the cubes further away from you look smaller and smaller. that's a vanishing point. Perspective is not dependent on vanishing points.

You can have as many vanishing points in a drawing as you need. Every set of parallel lines has their own VP. Cubes only have 3 vanishing points, but I added a roof on it in this one and now I have 5 vanishing points. The more complex the shape the more vanishing points. That's why they're only used for cubes and simple forms like that. the position and number of vanishing points depends solely on the angle and position you want to see the object from

one point perspective means that the cube only has one vanishing point (looking at a cube straight on), two point means that the cube has two vanishing points (looking at it from an angle, you can see two or three sides) and three point means that all parallel lines on the cube have a vanishing point. Three point perspective is usually for extreme angles where the camera points from high up to the earth or from down low to the sky.

[Anonymous No.1805848]

>>1804960
I asked a Proko. Proko answered it for me.

[Anonymous No.1805854]

>>1805848
loomis covers that. people really should read the loomis.

[Anonymous No.1806012]

>>1805563
> Perspective is not dependent on vanishing points.
This is what messed with me. I was under the impression that it wouldn't matter if they are parallel or not in perspective, because they won't be going at the same angle anymore. Like if you're favoring a side of a long corridor, the angles will be all cattywompus.
Then again, maybe i'm a retard.

[Anonymous No.1806026]

>>1805563
>but I added a roof on it in this one and now I have 5 vanishing points

i dont consider them real vanishing points.
in 2pp every vanishing point lies on the horizon.

the ones from the roof dont because they are the slopes.

[Anonymous No.1806027]

>>1805539
get "perspective made easy"

[Anonymous No.1806029]

>>1804280
>that other one with the pseudo science

He means "Drawing on the right side of the brain"

[Anonymous No.1806031]

>>1804330
>add dick to make it sophisticated

You got me, I laughed.

[Anonymous No.1806033]

>>1804274
/ic/ is not one person, of course there can be conflicting advice

[Anonymous No.1806034]

>>1804338
>I have no idea what it means

Symbol drawing means drawing what you think something looks like instead of what you see, I.e. drawing "a nose" instead of _the nose you're looking at_. OP isn't doing that, because nothing in his drawing looks like [generic version of thing] any more than it looks like [reference image]. Make sense? It's not a mishmash of arms and eyes and such that don't make sense, it's just...

Nothing.

[Anonymous No.1806037]

>>1804274
read drawing on the right side of the brain.
because you don't have the slightest idea about how to measure things properly. and that ability is super important

[Anonymous No.1806045]

>>1804274
There's no such thing as a stage when you shouldn't draw certain things. It's the complete opposite actually. If you have problems with drawing something (like human body) you should practice it as much as possible until you master it

[Anonymous No.1806713]

ITT: We make OP feel like he should become an hero

[Anonymous No.1807335]

Here ya go

[Anonymous No.1807404]

>>1807335
>funny joke
Har har