2D animation thread

[Anonymous No.1629478]

I couldn't find one in the catalog so yeah.
Any opinion/advice on this short arm animation?
Maybe another position to go from there?

[Anonymous No.1629503]

>>1629478
That actually looks really good. I guess you could try adding some more inbetweens to smoothen out.

[Anonymous No.1629507]

I made a boob!

[Anonymous No.1629509]

>>1629507
need more frames

[Anonymous No.1629516]

Well for the first part, it's too slow and not snappy. The arm bends like a limp banana. The velocity of the motion is too linear, there's no focus. There's no anticipation, it feels very dragged out, like the guy is high on sleeping pills or something.
My suggestion, use software with animation graphs to remap the timing and experiment to find something that looks more convincing.

[Anonymous No.1629520]

>>1629516
Also there's no easing

[Anonymous No.1629524]

>>1629516
Thanks for the adivce.
Yeah I knew something was off with and you're right, there is no velocity.
The speed of the gif however is off for whatever reason. It's actually at least 2 times faster

[Anonymous No.1629534]

>>1629524
this should be the right speed at least

[Anonymous No.1629538]

>>1629534
That looks a lot better

[Anonymous No.1629609]

[Anonymous No.1629620]

>>1629609
That looks pretty neat
How long did it take?

[Anonymous No.1629623]

>>1629620
about an hour

[Anonymous No.1629659]

>>1629534
The last part, when he flips his hand over, looks too fast and needs perhaps another frame or two. Looks very sweet otherwise.

[Anonymous No.1629680]

Practicing...

[Anonymous No.1629863]

Hey guys what's the best program to use for animating? I tried to mess around in flash but I'm not really fond of it.

[Anonymous No.1629902]

>>1629863
Toon Boom seems to be the only alternative here and it has some neat features, Flash doesn't have
https://www.toonboom.com/products/animate-pro/features

[Anonymous No.1629926]

>>1629863
I like the idea behind tvpaint, and I'm gonna use it for a while. I hope I don't get disappointed as I get familiar with it because the fact that it's not vector is really cool, and the drawing experience is very painterly compared to flash or toonboom.

[Anonymous No.1630021]

>>1629926
I use TVPaint (I started out with Flash, then went to ToonBoom because of Flash's horrible brushes, then decided to try TVPaint out)
It took me a while to get familiar with everyone, but once I did you can clearly see how superior it is compared to most other animation software! There's less room for object manipulation however compared to the other software, (ie motion tweens, inverse kinematics etc.) but I focus on frame by frame so it hasn't been a problem for me.

[Cookie Clicker No.1630576]

>>1629478
Hey guys, just noticed the thread so I figured I'd try and get some short gifs worked up for the thread.

But for now, I think I posted a few in another thread,
>>1628357
That thread is all my stuff, so there isn't much to look through

[Anonymous No.1630715]

>>1629902
>>1629926
>>1630021

Will try them, thank you

[Anonymous No.1631033]

bump for more animations

[Anonymous No.1631040]

I did this shitty a little while ago, I'm having a lot of trouble drawing drapery, so I think I'll wait till I git gud to make more animootions.

[Anonymous No.1631054]

>>1631040
It seems like he's missing a frame when his right arm goes back (it doesn't go back far enough)

[Anonymous No.1631056]

>>1631054
ah yes, you are quite right.

[Anonymous No.1631066]

>>1631056
Different guy here, and this is a small nit pick, but it looks like there is one little frame of movement missing from his right foot, right before it touches the ground in front of him. Nothing major, but I get the feeling like his foot goes flat a little too quickly, I think it would look a little smoother if you just gave it one extra frame where the heel is almost touching the ground, and the toes are still somewhat pointed upwards

[Anonymous No.1631068]

>>1629534
I agree with others that the last movement (the open palm... idk, sweep) is too fast. maybe put in an extra frame or a (I forget what they are called; the ones people screencap it /co/ where their face is looking two directions in one frame)

[Anonymous No.1631086]

>>1631068
>the ones people screencap it /co/ where their face is looking two directions in one frame)
You mean "animation smear"s?
http://animationsmears.tumblr.com/

[Anonymous No.1631105]

How would one properly do walk/run cycles? I'm not too good at them despite seeing the usual keys for them ("attempted step", recoil, passing, high point)

[Anonymous No.1631113]

>>1629863

I use Easytoon to do quick animations. Although it omits a bunch of features, you can export your animation in .gif form or turn them into frames for later editing.

[Anonymous No.1631124]

>>1629478

The feeling of form is good in the second half of the animation, but lacking in the first half. This is almost purely down to the drawings themselves. If you pay just slightly more attention to the arm/forearm crease, it would make the arm more solid.

The hand/finger should snap, not bounce like a balloon. Small, quick direction changes.

[Anonymous No.1631251]

>>1628562
>>1628563
>>1628564
>>1628571
>>1628576
So, here are some of my older gifs. I just did a reformat, and I guess these are all that made the transfer

[Anonymous No.1631265]

>>1631124
>teal animates too

[Anonymous No.1631276]

>>1631124

That hand looks beautiful.

[Anonymous No.1631277]

>>1631265
Hello there, newfriend!

[Anonymous No.1631297]

>>1631265

>I never followed teal before he removed his work on his tumblr

Neat. How long have you been here? Two days? Three?

[Anonymous No.1631315]

>>1631105

Plan the motion paths if you aren't doing that already. Plotting these out roughly is almost the same as constructing your figures upon a gesture drawing. The paths keep everything consistent before you commit, in the same way that gestures keep the body language consistent before your commit to blocking out form.

[Anonymous No.1631327]

>>1631315
Your head's arc is looking a little rocky there. A stark contrast to the hands and feet.

Do you use dots like demonstrated to plan the motion or was that added in to illustrate what you meant?

[Anonymous No.1631359]

>>1629534
This looks a lot better, more fluent than the original. A few more frames when the palm opens would make it look better.

[Anonymous No.1631397]

>>1631315
Some advice:
(I'm assuming you're familiar with the terms given, you seem confident, which is good.)
Poor overlap and secondary animation. You're not considering how the energies of motion are moving from the body out to the limbs. This affects your arcs and thier key spacing. You need to watch people in real life walking and running to get your own idea of the motion passing through the parts. It kinda looks like your going off reference primarily.

Also you seem to have a poor grasp of spacing your keys. The arcs have an okay curve, but the keys are too evenly spaced. It makes it look sticky. Even in limited animation you should weight your keys closer together when passing from one major actions to the next.

[Anonymous No.1631401]

>>1631315
No ease to/from either

[Anonymous No.1631504]

>>1631359
more fluent??
Anyway I agree, more frames when hes rotating his wrist to open the hand towards the camera.

[Anonymous No.1631559]

>>1631397

You really want me to do all that in 10 minutes and 8 frames?

>>1631327

Dots were drawn first.

[Anonymous No.1631650]

>>1631559
Even if you're working on ones, it shouldn't be that sticky. And the poses aren't too difficult. You got the anatomy down, but it just looks like you're unfamiliar with live observation and don't have a good idea of how to structure the pose to illustrate the flow of energy. Even if a realistic walk cycle wasn't your goal here, you'd still have the problem of not correctly structuring secondary action and overlap. Both of which don't need any extra frames or keys. Those things are in the poses. So yes, if the problems are in the drawing's structure, then you should be able to do it in 10 minutes with 8 frames.

Here's a goofy swag cycle, notice how the energy passes through the limbs. Notice how the energy comes back up into the hips, keeping his butt strangely jutted forward. His feet twist wrongly. The arms bend incorrectly. But because the structure was drawn correctly to show the flow of energy passing through the parts everything flows, regardless of how illogical or impossible the walk is. And it was done on 6 keys.

[Anonymous No.1631653]

>>1631650

Do you have ten minutes? Put it in practice.

[Anonymous No.1631660]

>>1631650

That is at least 10 frames for a completed cycle for a very stylized walk..

[Anonymous No.1631713]

>>1631660
>>1631653
1. Learn to take criticism a little better. I'm sensing some hostility. /ic/ is a learning endeavor, if you can't take some criticism either ignore it or goes somewhere else.

2. Nobody should have to hold your hand here. This very basic Animation 101 stuff here. Again take or it leave it. It's Okay to ask for clarification, but this put-up or shut-up attitude needs to be contained.

3. The goofy swag is 6 keys, maybe 8 I'll give you that but not 10 keys. Those 6 or 8 keys are enough to show a step. Pic related. Yes the gif has more frames, but we're talking about keys. (the BIG IDEA frames) You are working on ones right? You can either ignore the inbetweens, focusing solely on the structure, or use them to see how the structure is distributing the flow of energy in detail.

4. "stylized" or not the principle of energy passing from the body through to the limbs (overlap and secondary) are still present. The principal(s) is about registering change in a seemingly plausible way.

[Anonymous No.1631718]

Seriously guys, take the time to study from Richard Williams' book, rather than learning in bits and bobs from a 4chan thread.
With the book you get pure fundamental animation from the most basic to combining the basic stuff into a complex performance.

[Anonymous No.1631729]

I would also recommend Brian Lemays Books. They can be a continuation to William's book, in that they go into detail about plotting an action with arcs, marking and reading a dope sheet, and utilizing a field guide.

You can find them here:

http://www.lightfootltd.com/catalog/48

Look at Animation The Basic Principals; Layout and Design made Simple. (I haven't read Character Animation and Lip Sync yet.)

[Anonymous No.1631730]

>people telling teal he doesn't know what he's doing/unfamiliar with observation.

This must be a sign of the end times.

[Anonymous No.1631731]

>>1631297
>>1631277
I've been here for a while but I only saw his redlines and junk. I never really checked out his blog, and didn't he try to keep it on the down-low anyway??

[Anonymous No.1631732]

>>1631731
He made alot of child pornography and v&nished. Hes probably dead now. The end

[Anonymous No.1631733]

>>1631713

1. Your criticism was about something I never intended to explore. The poster I was responding to asked about how to start a walking sequence. I whipped one up in 10 minutes, using only 8 frames, to show how it was plotted. Why would you compare this to Disney? Not that I don't appreciate it, but flattery gets you nowhere.

3. I was talking about *frames*. You've shown 13 there. My animation was 8 frames.

[Anonymous No.1631747]

>>1631730
w-who is teal

[Anonymous No.1631749]

>>1631733

1. It's criticism, not a threat. I saw some problems that were severely distracting and pointed them out. Take it or leave it, don't waste everybody's time making for excuses.

2. KEYS, I'm talking about KEYS and asked if you're working in ones. (Which means all keys). You do know the difference between frames and keys, right? You do understand the concept of working in ones, two, and threes, right? The goofy cycle illustrates the flow of energy I was reiterating. The walk is impossible but you see the principals. And I gave you the benefit of the doubt saying 8 keys were possible.

3. The 10 minute thing is all you. Not sure why you even brought it up. Trying to show off how fast you are? You're fast, I'll give you that. But this about learning not a speed competition. If it takes some one a whole day to draw all the keys, so be it. It's better to go slow now and ingrain the principles than to rush through everything and acquire only a superficial understanding.

4. I'm beginning to see you don't like working with others. If you're this snippy from some basic criticism, I can't imagine what it would be like in a studio environment with you. Don't expect any more help, you clearly shown you're "too above it all". And don't expect another response.

Take it or leave it.

P.s. Stop samefagging it's painfully obvious

[Anonymous No.1631753]

>>1631733
That's not how you layout a walk cycle. You don't draw the arc points before you establish the drawings. That's just asking for trouble later. You start from the keys, then move to the arcs, then the inbetweens. stfu.

[Anonymous No.1631762]

>>1631730
it happened before.
and you're cancer

[Anonymous No.1631778]

>>1631729
Those look like nice resources. Thanks for the recommendation.

[Anonymous No.1631780]

>>1631749

It's probably different in the context of eastern animation. I'm >>1631105 and I was trying to aim for it. He probably knew.

Eastern animation mostly leans toward Limited animation; how quick the animator can do cuts in a minimal amount of time. This drastically reduces the production time, cell count, etc. They break a few animation rules in order to accomplish it though.

His example was personally helpful since I didn't understand the usefulness of arcs.

[Anonymous No.1631803]

>>1631749
Jesus, the guy just showed that arcs are a neat thing that you can use to plan motion. Why all the hate? Actually, don't answer that. Just stop the drama-fest.

[Anonymous No.1631810]

>>1631780
>Eastern animation mostly leans toward Limited animation; how quick the animator can do cuts in a minimal amount of time. This drastically reduces the production time, cell count, etc. They break a few animation rules in order to accomplish it though.

This is something important that a lot of people miss. Another good example is the profile view "animating a mouth on the side of the face" used in anime a lot so they don't have to animate the jaw or lip movements.

[Anonymous No.1631814]

>>1631780
>>1631105
Arcs in animation are just what they sound like. They are simple curved paths of motions. Think of a pendulum pivoting from a fulcrum. In nature most things move on arcs. They are used to plot a swing of something. For example: think the butt as the fulcrum and the knee as the pendulum, that knee has an arc. Now think the knee as a fulcrum and the ankle as the pendulum that another arc. we can continue this in either direction on the body and the principal stays the same--they move in arcs.

What wasn't explained is that a loop is multiple arcs. That was a poor example and doesn't distinguish the vital information from the rest. Keep your arcs as simple as possible, add more later, but don't just go into plotting circular loops. That's too much too soon.

[Anonymous No.1631845]

>>1631780
>>1631810

The only thing different about eastern animation versus western, is that easterners dawdle on their major and minor keys and have difficulty showing attitude or mood in an action, or try to avoid them altogther. The principles are the same, the goals are different. Theory is universal.

[Anonymous No.1632101]

>ITT: idiots atop Mount Stupid stroke their e-penises by giving false advice to people who don't need it or weren't asking for it and fail to realize that their criticism can be criticized itself if it makes no fucking sense

>b-but /ic/ is a learning experience, and I'm giving you a nonsense spiel, therefore all of my "advice" should be regarded as concrete because reasons

[Anonymous No.1632103]

>>1631753

>you start from the keys

The arcs are literally stripped down keys. Each dot represents a key frame and allows for fleshing out each frame. Also, some processes are different from others.

Are you retarded?

[Anonymous No.1632111]

Cool your man tits, teal.

The dude was right about your spacing being too even.

[Anonymous No.1632122]

>>1632111
and you're that dude, nice samefag defensing, you retard.

[Anonymous No.1632130]

>>1631747
a pedo who redlines for attention

[Anonymous No.1632136]

>>1632122
Your spacing is bad. Deal with it.

[Anonymous No.1632140]

>>1632136
your opinion is bad, deal with it.

[Anonymous No.1632141]

never change /ic/

[Anonymous No.1632189]

[Anonymous No.1632206]

>>1632189
the stick figure stops too fast in mid air which means that the drawings are too close too each other in the last 2-3 frames where he's still gaining altitude
and in general that makes it looks as if the head was the heaviest part of his body

[Anonymous No.1632214]

>>1632103
What's retarded is doing the arcs before drawing the most important extreme in a an action. Without that you don't know if your hitting your mark in the right spot. Arcs help validate timing, they shouldnt be depended on too much for plotting structure of a drawing beforehand. Its like trying to drive before getting in the car. You got to establish the character (roughly at first) then make your arcs.

[Anonymous No.1632243]

>>1632103
Doing your arcs prematurely gives wonky poses and shits your timing/spacing. Teal's gif demonstrates that nicely. Poses pop out too much and the pacing is in discord.

Also taking animation advice from a weeb? georgecostanza.jpg

Anime is the worst medium to learn from by example.

[Anonymous No.1632256]

>>1632243
>Anime is the worst medium to learn from by example.

not really, depends on which animator(s) you choose to learn from.

[Anonymous No.1632288]

>>1632256
what I dislike about anime or this kind of animation in general is that it looks too stiff since it's trying to mimic real life too much
what disney did in their prime time was the most beautiful looking animation because it exaggerated movement and form at the right times without making it too loose or bouncy

[Anonymous No.1632295]

>>1632288
each to their own

[Anonymous No.1632343]

>>1632243

>Also taking animation advice from a weeb? georgecostanza.jpg

Why would anyone take advice from a meme spouting anonymous faggot who doesn't even post his own work over advice from Teal, who always backs his advice up with his work? You can't possibly be this deluded and full of yourself. Go ahead and post your work showcasing the superior western-based animation techniques if you want to be taken seriously.

[Anonymous No.1632349]

>>1632343
Since when does saying 'weeb' make you a meme spouter?
The term is almost as old as 4chan, and its just an easier way of saying "wapanese", "japanophile", "otaku" or "guy that really likes anime too much, so it skews his opinions on things, and if you don't also enjoy anime as much as he does, then its probably best to politely disregard what he has said"

[Anonymous No.1632351]

>>1632349
Its kind of like when I say "Getting a PS4 is redundant this gen if you already have a PC, unless you're a weeb. In which case its understandable that you would want a playstation since its the only console that caters to weeaboo's"

Its never said as an insult, or a way to say that someone or something is retarded. Calling a person a weeaboo is just a way to establish that they like anime and you don't.

[Anonymous No.1632352]

>>1632343
>show youre work
kill youreself

[Anonymous No.1632362]

>>1632352
I would normally agree, but this guy is being a gigantic faggot.

[Anonymous No.1632474]

>>1632256
It's proven fact the more "Kim's" in a production the more stale the quality becomes. And let's not forget how ever mainstream anime 100% redundant.

If you want a good example to follow, watch classic shorts like the Looney Tunes, Tom and Jerry, and the Disney shorts. Those were produce from a handful of people and they're a thousand time better quality than those chinese cartoons produced by legions of shitty interns.

Check and mate

[Anonymous No.1632491]

>>1631315
Your spacing is too even.

[Anonymous No.1632492]

>>1632474
Uneducated scum please leave.

[Anonymous No.1632514]

>>1632474

It's an unfair comparison imo. For one, they're both structured differently. Western animation has a bunch of animators; key animators and inbetweeners alike. In most productions, they assigned key animators to animate certain characters, very rarely they did scenes/cuts solo like Milt Kahl and Richard Williams. The traditional animation golden age in america hardly lasted long since the budget blew up to seven figures constantly. The west now provides character designs/storyboards to be animated by eastern animators.


Eastern key animators skilled enough to do multiple cuts/scenes solo, they are also able to do them quickly without automatically breaking the budget above 6 figures (see: Shinji Hashimoto, Norio Matsumoto, BahiJD, Takeshi Honda, Hiroyuki Imashi, Yoh Yoshinari). If they had the same amount of time, people, assistant, and budget as golden age western animation, then the quality would increase tremendously.

[Anonymous No.1632531]

>>1632514

isn't BahiJD Austrian or something

[Anonymous No.1632533]

>>1632531
yes he animates digitally from his home in austria

[Anonymous No.1632556]

>>1632514
When learning animation, who cares how they are organize? Nearly every animation made today is over inflated with cheap Asian labor. If you want a lot of examples that show the principles in their clearest form you go old school American 100% USA. Anime is too passive and saturated with fx to extrapolate from.

Japan and Korea will be the death of the Art of Animation

[Anonymous No.1632560]

>>1632556
forgot gif.
It's from Moving Day and it's stuffed full of REAL animation. No screen flashes or cut and paste anime shit going on in here. You can set the whole thing to music--give it tempo and mood--something anime very rarely does. (and not to well when it does).

This is animation as an art.

[Anonymous No.1632561]

>>1632491

Are you just looking at the motion path, or the actual animation? Because the spacing is definitely not even.

[Anonymous No.1632567]

>>1632556

You're probably familiar with "The thief and the Cobbler" story, a movie directed by Richard Williams. Production took over 30 years and budget blew up tremendously, only to be cheaply edited and cut out entirely by Warner Brothers. As a result, his true artistic vision was never seen.

Organization is absolutely essential to animation. There's no point in doing animation if your concept is never seen due to the lack of time and budget.

[Anonymous No.1632572]

>>1632556
>>1632560
I understand you might not find the style of eastern animation appealing, but stop acting so pretentious.
Eastern animation is not in any way inferior to western, in fact I think it's retarded to compare them.

I personally would prefer something like my .gif to your .gif any time of the day, but that does not mean I can't appreciate it for what it is.

[Anonymous No.1632575]

>>1632572
not the anon you're responding to but I have to say that that is some pretty good animation in that gif
the only thing that bothers me is that there is no anticipation in the jump

[Anonymous No.1632577]

>>1632572
Stop getting your vagina in a knot over someone talking about your shitty weeaboo shit. If you want to learn how to make superficial crap, go ahead, nobodies trying to stop you.

[Anonymous No.1632582]

>>1632560

One thing that I want to add is that screen flashes and "cut and paste" anime stuff is entirely dependent on the director and key animator.

In that case, you were probably thinking of the Yoshinari Kanada. He was extremely influential and assumed to be responsible for bringing birth to the "cheap" techniques used in anime. His work, Birth

Hiroyuki Okiura (the guy who did the cut in the gif I posted at >>16325967) is of the eastern animators who did cuts for famous movies like Akira. He's well-versed in perspective and realistic movement. There's also folks like Hiroyuki Imashi who have a cartoon-like animation style, influenced by Kanada. Then you have folks like Hideaki Anno who were specialized in machine-type subject matter.

[Anonymous No.1632585]

>>1632577
It's ironic because eastern animators learn animation the exact same way western animators do, the only difference is the style that influence them.

This is an animation thread, if you can't appreciate all kinds of animation, just fucking leave already, cause you're gonna do nothing more than argue.

[Anonymous No.1632586]

>>1632567
You're misunderstanding. When learning how to animate (i.e. theory, principles, techniques etc. etc.), wondering how studios organize their staff is a waste of time. Cross that bridge when you get to it. And if you don't know how correlate your poses with timing and spacing chances are you'll never even get to that bridge.

[Anonymous No.1632589]

>>1632585
Just cause this is an animation thread doesn't mean everybody has to suck anime's 1-inch cock. If you can't let shit go, then go back to fwapping to your esoteric collection of visual novels, and let the learners do their thing.

[Anonymous No.1632595]

>>1632586
one of the benefits of making your own film, doing all the storyboards, design, backgrounds, animation, inbetweens, clean up and colour yourself, is knowing specifically which jobs are delegated been which members of the crew and why.
TV animation production has changed a bit, first with the overseas production, and later with digital moving in, but it's never been good, really.
But hand drawn feature animation still basically uses the same production roles as Pinocchio. (Supervising animator > animators > inbetweeners >clean up)
America really needs to get back in the hand-drawn game, because they've fallen way behind France and Japan in the last 10 years.

[Anonymous No.1632600]

>>1632589
You make it sound like there's only one approach to learning animation and you couldn't be more wrong.
It seems like you are very ignorant on the subject of eastern animation, so please just stop posting any time now, cause your posts can pretty much be narrowed down to
>stop liking what I don't like ;_;!

[Anonymous No.1632602]

>>1632586

We're probably glancing at this from a holistic type of perspective. Probably why we're both confused. The quality difference between eastern and western animation is mainly caused by two particular variables; time and budget. It's why it's common to see eastern animators animating entire scenes whereas it's common for golden age western animators to animate particular characters.

It's also entirely dependent on the subject matter. It's like the drastic difference between performing a bouncing ball animation and a walk-cycle. Japan is mostly known for tackling around with unfamiliar subject matter. It's incredibly difficult to time a protagonist fighting a dude with seven swords.

[Anonymous No.1632605]

Always funny to see the pedo lose his shit

[Anonymous No.1632607]

>>1632605
>I-It's all one guy right guys heh ?
sometimes it amazes me how far teal haters will go to delude themselves that they are right.

[Anonymous No.1632621]

>>1632600
>pot calling the kettle black

Let it go, weeb

[Anonymous No.1632630]

>>1629478

>shitty meta-trolls and cult of personali-teal

We're off to a great start guys

[Anonymous No.1632631]

>>1632621
I really don't give a fuck if you like or dislike anime, I can however not stand by as you falsely accuse eastern animation of being hurtful for learners, where in fact it is the direct opposite.

Surely you must be intelligent enough to understand.

[Anonymous No.1632639]

>>1632631
Focusing on replicating chinese cartoon shit will, mark my words, teach you to produce shit like >>1631315. Neat drawings that don't move in a pleasing manner. There will be no music to the action. You'll just get bland stuff that stutters. You're characters won't act, they'll just look interesting. Compositions would just drool around in the frame, distracting you. Chinese cartoons are soulless. You may find a few 'gems' here and there, but the exception doesn't prove the rule.

[Anonymous No.1632646]

>>1632639
This is the great fucking thing about japanese animation.
They dedicate entire scenes sometimes episodes to a single animator, so it's very easy to filter through the bad stuff you should avoid.
BahiJD is a good example, he learned pretty much only from the sakuga videos he saw on youtube, heck he only found out about The Animators Survival Kit a lot later where he was already pretty awesome stuff by then.

[Anonymous No.1632655]

>>1632646
have fun learning to be superficial

[Anonymous No.1632657]

>>1632655
Great counter-argument, 10/10 post, screencapping and saving for further shitstorms in the future.

[Anonymous No.1632665]

>>1632639

Eastern animation is highly dependent on the key animator and director. You're probably comparing golden-age western films to TV shows that follow the moe trend. It's mostly unfair. It's like claiming that western entertainment is shit just because it has Jersey Shore.

[Anonymous No.1632667]

>>1632657
What's to argue? When someone is so gilded by something no amount of reasoning in the world is going to change their mind. Look at the anime/manga threads here on /ic/, those things are shining testaments.

[Anonymous No.1632672]

>>1632639

Eastern animation is highly dependent on the key animator and director. Every show has it's different style, so it's mostly unsafe to view eastern animation holistically. It's the difference between John K's stuff, South Park, and Don Bluth films.

You're probably comparing golden-age western films to TV shows that follow the moe trend. It's mostly unfair. It's like claiming that western entertainment is shit just because it has Jersey Shore.

[Anonymous No.1632680]

>>1632667
The anime threads are force fed to us by our autistic cunt of a janitor

Culls those threads exclusively and shill/tablet troll threads stick around for days.

[Anonymous No.1632684]

>>1632665
TODAY western entertainment IS shit because it has shows like Jersey Shore. And TODAY anime is shit cause its inundated with shit.

Now, if I was asked what would offer the clearest and best demonstration of the basic principles of animation, I would point to the stuff that established them in the first place. The stuff made by real men who wrote the book on animation, Classic American Animation. Go to the source if you want to learn the basics; which is basically what I've been saying.

[Anonymous No.1632687]

>>1632667
You're the guy who's claiming that learning from a certain style of animation will hurt your chances of getting gud, yet you have no fucking prove of it. It seems like you're simply driven by your hate and bias toward a certain style and has no actual reason to argue your case other than I DON'T LIKE IT.

[Anonymous No.1632691]

>>1632680
They're evidence for my point: You can't change someone's mind if they don't want to change it. Nothing to argue, nothing to gain, their mind is already made up.

[Anonymous No.1632698]

>>1632687
Stfu teal, nobody cares how butthurt mad you are right now

[Anonymous No.1632701]

>>1632698
epic simply epic, I can't believe how rekt I got.

[Anonymous No.1632709]

Thank you Janitor, continue your good work

[Anonymous No.1632709,1]

>>1632709
HAHAHAHA! Teal's ass-kissing got pruned. Not like your regular cancer thread, is it Simon?

[Anonymous No.1632777]

>>1632684
You like america, huh?

[Anonymous No.1632795]

>>1632672
Cowboy Bebop movie animation was fucking god tier. I would actually get into anime if it was animated like that.

[Anonymous No.1632845]

Most fancy anime action is stylized rotoscoping, it's what gives it that seemingly fluidness but has a limited application. Its realism doesn't take advantage of the medium and it produces dull undramatic acting. The stylization just exaggerates the movements, not really adding anything important. So in the end you get this kind animation that has exaggerated realistic action during intense scenes with a stiff graphic presentation that stick out during dialogs. The organic unity is spoiled and you're left with a hollow work.

[Anonymous No.1632853]

>>1632845
>stylized rotoscoping
is this even a thing

[Anonymous No.1632856]

>>1632189
>pokemon.gif

[Anonymous No.1632857]

>>1632853
It's taking footage of live actors and drawing the characters over them in the show's style, or taking an already made scene and drawing the characters over them in the show's style. You're using footage as a general template, think of it like gesture drawing.

[Anonymous No.1632873]

>>1632857

Holy crap I never noticed this before!

[Anonymous No.1632895]

>>1632857
But that's fucking wrong you retard, that scene is notorious for being copied.

I can't believe how uneducated people in this thread are about Japanese animation.

[Anonymous No.1632937]

I have 0 knowledge about animation, do they draw all of the frames?

[Anonymous No.1632938]

what's a good starting software for someone who wants to jump into animation.

[Anonymous No.1632947]

This exists http://pinocchiogifs.tumblr.com/

Kind of convenient as Pinocchio has some of the best character animation I've seen

[Anonymous No.1632948]

>>1632937
Depends on what you mean by "they". But generally yes, outside of those ugly cheap Flash cartoons where everything is tweened and the illusion of depth is completely lost.

[Anonymous No.1632965]

>>1632938
TAB manga or Flipnote Studio

[Anonymous No.1632967]

yay, animation thread.

OP's arcs are nice, i like the depth of the gesture at the end, too. stylistically I'm not keen on squared-off fingers, they look like strips of tape.

it's a matter of taste, obviously, but fingers have a pleasant sort of mass to them that's fun to see done well.

[Anonymous No.1633018]

>>1632857

That scene was never traced from live action. Both cuts were done by live action action animation veteran Yutaka Nakamura.

[Anonymous No.1633026]

>>1632857

That wasn't copied or rotoscoped. It was done by Yutaka Nakamura. He's an animation veteran who's constantly assigned to do action sequences. He did cuts for the Escaflowne film and Soul Eater. Here's a collection of scenes he did for Bebop.


http://youtu.be/p4X1Z3S9R0w

[Anonymous No.1633029]

Throwing some of mine in
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bEqvp7W8P8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xhmn8sZ8zHo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9E4XfSGKWEg

[Anonymous No.1633100]

>>1633026
It was precoregraphed by people, probaby from the staff, and then drawn. Nobody can't do all that solely out of thier head and get the timing right you need a reference to go by. That is in essence: copied, roto'd, borrowed etc. There is nothing wrong with that, they all do it. Some pull from stock footage much the same way mangakas lift from catalogs.

[Anonymous No.1633106]

>>1633100
I'd like to see what kind of rotoscoping they used to do pic related.

[Anonymous No.1633164]

>>1633100
>nobody can do that solely out of their head
are you fucking serious?

[Anonymous No.1633204]

>>1633164
Your heros aren't omniscient. Tracing and copying has been utilized since the Renaissance masters you used lenses and mirrors.

[Anonymous No.1633211]

>>1633106
Someone twirling a staff... Yeah anon that is impossible to do in real life. There is no way they could record the basic movements and embellish a few frames here and there. The only way is to call on some magnificently talented shut-in and beg him to draw it.

[Anonymous No.1633213]

>>1633204
*you
who

[Anonymous No.1633215]

>>1633106

They rotoscoped this.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HPPj6viIBmU

[Anonymous No.1633218]

>>1633204
and how exactly does that mean that nobody can pull that off?

[Anonymous No.1633220]

I don't understand how this looks so fucking fluid

[Anonymous No.1633248]

>>1633220
Lots and lots of tweening. Probably animating on 16s or some other high number. It's very tedious and requires great patience but the rewards are great.

[Anonymous No.1633252]

>>1633218
What exactly are you asking? The more complicated something is the more planning is involved. It's not uncommon to use convient tools, especially if you're on a schedule and budget.

[Anonymous No.1633260]

>>1632857
I know this has been said a million times but isn't this from some Bruce Lee movie or something?
>>1633106
Might have some reference footage or pre planning, but itdoesn't really look rotoscoped.

Also, animators use tons of reference footage all the time. Not necessarily rotoscope, but they use footage to for some stuff. You can't just animate a rocket blasting off without ever seeing a rocket blast off.

[Anonymous No.1633272]

>>1633260
rotoscoping doesn't always mean you're tracing the contours exactly. It's a loose term that means your "painting" over a frame and has come to encompass any kind of use of recorded action to capture a movement's realism. Think of it like photo bashing but doing it frame by frame. Not everything in a scene is roto'd. It's usually the one thing that is moving in a realistic fashion while everything else is drawn in reaction.

Often times stock footage is used simply to get the timing and spacing down as quickly as possible. Some don't like it because they think takes away from what the medium can do outside of realism--they would argue that roto'ing misses the point of what the art form can do. Others like it cause it's effective in giving fluid movement.

Here is a short documentary about Fire & Ice. Take notice of how some of the actors don't look exactly like the characters they are portraying, nor the sets.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYCafSa8MKE

[Anonymous No.1633278]

>>1633260
Also it's important to note the footage isn't always real footage, sometimes cg is used. A common thing to do now is to use cel shade models when a scene calls for a crowd of characters--like on a battlefield. Also models are used to for when a scene has fancy camera work around a character. They all end up being either drawn over or touched up to fit into show.

[Anonymous No.1633298]

>>1633100

Bear in mind that those are people who have participated in the industry for 20+ years and were trained by other animation veterans.

[Anonymous No.1633300]

>>1633298

Though, you're definitely right that referencing does occur in certain media. I know that a few Satoshi Kon films used live action reference, so did a few cuts in Jin-Roh.

[Anonymous No.1633345]

>>1633026

Nakamura only storyboarded the action scenes in the CB movie.

[Anonymous No.1633347]

>>1633220

That gif is moving too fast. Anyway ones plus just making sure that the drawings always match.

[Anonymous No.1633559]

>>1633106
>Nakamura
>rotoscope
I am going to guess this is a troll, Its not impossible to do this stuff by hand. If you just alittle about animation then you should know that animators break things down into bite sized chunks, and keep in mind there is a whole lot of shit going on after key-animation.

[Anonymous No.1633567]

Are you guys doing all of this in Flash?

That's what I use. What's the best animation program to use and how does Flash rank among them?

[Anonymous No.1633570]

Here's an animation of mine, be gentle

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0TRphpTd-gs

[Anonymous No.1633572]

>>1633570
This was pretty damn funny, not going to lie.
The pacing is smoothly slow, but for some reason it really adds to the overall mood of it.

[Anonymous No.1633574]

>>1633572
You have no idea how much I appreciate that. I worked on this back around the end of 2012 for like a month. It's really nice getting some positive feedback.

[Anonymous No.1633862]

>>1633570
You rely too much on LEL SO RANDUM FACES

[Anonymous No.1633863]

>>1633862
stop being a hater it was brilliant!

[Anonymous No.1633870]

>>1633863
I get that the joke is about Link being shit in Smash Bros and that Pikachu is gud, but there was way too many
>look at dis funneh face I drew
he should've put that time and energy into thinking of more/better jokes to put in.

[Anonymous No.1633881]

>>1632514
>>1632567
>>1632582
>>1632857
>>1633106
>>1633559
dumb shitty arguments aside, it might help your point if you posted some stuff that has a bit of personality, rather than just action

[Anonymous No.1633883]

>>1633881
Yes, because we all know animation needs to be about this ONE thing that I myself like.

[Anonymous No.1633884]

Downloading this right now, anyone else seen it?

[Anonymous No.1633934]

>>1633884
no, but looks good enough i'll try and watch it, too

[Anonymous No.1633941]

>>1633881
Anime doesn't have personality. Why do you think it's chock full of cheap tricks and flashy frills?

[Anonymous No.1633944]

>>1633941
clearly you never watched an anime. or at least one you have never connected with. and had a waifu.

Kagome will always have a special place in my heart.

[Anonymous No.1633948]

>>1633941
>everything you just said
the current state of /ic/ makes me sick

[Anonymous No.1633949]

>>1633944
>Kagome will always have a special place in my heart.

You're making me feel weird trying to learn how to draw Animu. Stop that.

[Anonymous No.1633951]

>>1633941
"if I keep parroting shit I can understand maybe /ic/ will like me" - anon

[Anonymous No.1633956]

>>1633883
Well, character animation IS all about personality. If you don't have personalities interacting, you don't have a story. Also stop being so dumb and defensive. Action sequences are fine, but the poster was making it look like that's the only good stuff, as they were trying to make a case to somebody who isn't into anime (or even interested at all)
>>1633884
It's great! I saw it last year at a film festival. I think the look of fake digital watercolour works really well with the real watercolour BGs.
>>1633941
That's not necessarily true, man. An example off the top of my head - the girls running around the old house in My Neighbour Totoro. They both do the same actions, but with different attitudes.

[Anonymous No.1633958]

>>1633941
anon's badge
http://youtu.be/lfCsrKrW2Xk?t=17m44s
"anime dont art"

[Anonymous No.1633959]

>>1633956
damn i need to watch that movie some of the best design i have every seen from disney i wish they would have ran wit that style for a few more movies at least.

[Anonymous No.1633969]

>>1633956
how do they manage to have 100+ frames for that small animation and yet it's still looks super choppy?

But more importantly how do they mangae to make it look so goog still?

[Anonymous No.1633971]

>>1633956
But the whole fucking appeal of eastern animation is their highly dynamic and wonderfully choreographed action scenes, they can do something that no one else in the world can.
They do emphasize emotion on their character as well when the budget calls for it, but it's not their top priority.

So basically there's no reason to go into Japanese animation if you're not interested in fight scenes and alike, it's what they do best.

Just like how I'm not particularly interested in some dude taking on a jacket in a specific way.

[Anonymous No.1633996]

>>1633959
The Sword in the Stone has a very similar style
>>1633969
well it's a gif, so a lot of frames are cut out.
It'd still work pretty well if there was only keys, though.
>>1633971
eh, I've seen subtle Japanese, Chinese and Korean animation before, and I've seen dynamic American and French animation before, so I assume you're talking about eastern animation in a general sense.
Good and bad stuff from everywhere, too.

[Anonymous No.1633998]

>>1633958
>>1633956
>>1633951
>>1633948
Whoa, whoa, whoa. Don't get me wrong anime does have its charms. It's just that most of it, with a few exceptions, looks like a Noh play. The characters rarely pantomime their mood. In most anime, particularly television, you can't quickly tell the characters mood or state without the dialog catching you up to date. Dialog using body language is almost nonexistent. It's a ping-pong match of soliloquies between characters that are mostly straight-faced. And when they do express a mood it's held for an over extended duration. You rarely see a character change its mood in mid-sentence.

Yes, the some comedy anime is expressive about mood, but that is because the use of abstraction and visual metaphors--which is one of Anime's very few charms.

Here is an example of the kind of pantimiming I'm coming from. Milt Kahl animated Madam Mim in this scene from The Sword in the Stone. Take note how her body delivers much of the dialog. You could watch it on mute and still have a good idea about what she is expressing. (It's too bad animation isn't made with this kind of acting anymore.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNjkuHQGa2w

[Anonymous No.1634000]

>>1633998
Yeah but who would wanna fuk that. Noone that's who

[Anonymous No.1634008]

>>1634000
A sophisticated gentleman who can appreciate the qualities of a matured fat ass, that's who.

[Anonymous No.1634048]

>>1634008
>matured

Dude, that thing's way past its expiry date.

[Anonymous No.1634051]

>>1633998
>>1634008
>>1634048
you guys are killing me

[Anonymous No.1634054]

>>1634048
you just don't understand, a fine-ass never expires

[Anonymous No.1634094]

>>1633998

Fuck, Milt is dead and the only person alive that had his knowledge was Richard Williams

Fuck.

I'm pretty egalitarian when it comes to animation (east and west both have great specimens) but if you don't think that Kahl's work and the rest of the top Golden Age stuff is nothing short of magical you're absolutely FUCKING retarded.

Like watch the intro to Who Framed Roger Rabbit and try not to masturbate furiously to how mind blowing the animation is

Try it I dare you

[Anonymous No.1634110]

>>1634094
>Fuck, Milt is dead and the only person alive that had his knowledge was Richard Williams

So? Surely Williams would've included some useful pointers that he learned from Kahl in the Animator's Survival Kit.

[Anonymous No.1634114]

>>1634110

Reading his book (I read it and will re-read it in the future) and mentoring for years under someone as masterful as he or milt were are two different things man

Maybe I'm just being overly pessimistic

[Anonymous No.1634131]

>>1632582
What anime is in the gif?

[Anonymous No.1634203]

>>1634094
This
and Richard Williams is already 80 years old
>tfw you won't be able to recieve lessons from him anymore

[Anonymous No.1634220]

[Anonymous No.1634241]

>>1634220
The "crown" of the splash disappears really quickly. Surely it should fall at the same speed as the rest of the drops?

[Anonymous No.1634242]

>>1634241
yes, this is still rough... i wanted to get the highest drops fleshed out before i deal with the other parts of the splash.

[Anonymous No.1634269]

>>1634094
I reckon that Andreas Deja could sit comfortably with those guys, if he was given a real chance. Especially if he had been in steady, challenging work for the past 10 years, rather than on-and-off with little bits. In fact Andreas was Dick's top guy on Roger Rabbit.
>>1634110
>>1634114
>>1634203
He deliberately made the book so that all that knowledge wouldn't die with Frank and Ollie. You don't need to receive lessons from them, it's already all there, boiled down into an understandable format.
And his entire feature is just sitting here online with it's guts splayed out for us to study. We have pencil tests from all the old cartoons and features readily available, and we can skip through frames on DVD, Bluray, video files, etc. As well as all the best drawing books and reference material right here.
We have more than we could possibly ever need.

Except a damn studio to spend 40 years working in

[Anonymous No.1634303]

>>1632795
but you just listed an anime that is animated like that
why not just look for anime that looks like that

[Anonymous No.1634309]

>>1634269
>We have more than we could possibly ever need.
So why is everything crap?

[Anonymous No.1634341]

>>1633948
>he current state of /ic/ makes me sick
back in 2006 when I started browsing /ic/, anime was widely regarded as garbage, and anyone caught mildly praising it here was laughed off of the board.


(/ic/ used to be really good, and the regulars were incredibly talented)

[Anonymous No.1634344]

>>1634309
It's not. There's been at least 20 great animated features in the past 10 years. It's just that only a couple of them were American

[Anonymous No.1634343]

>>1633956
>the girls running around the old house in My Neighbour Totoro.
>Miyazaki
>anime
Son, we just call movies like his "animated"

[Anonymous No.1634346]

>>1633971
>thinks the argument is about what they are trying to animate, and not how it is done.

[Anonymous No.1634348]

>>1634000
>Yeah but who would wanna fuk that. Noone that's who
Do you not know who madam mim is?
Shes fucking magic dude, she can transform into anything she wants

[Anonymous No.1634353]

>>1634348

And she would almost certainly transform into a warty hog right before the climax.

[Anonymous No.1634377]

>>1634344
What 20?

[Anonymous No.1634396]

>>1634377

Inquiring minds would also like to know

[Anonymous No.1634412]

>>1634341
They're probably all pros and gone now, man. That, or your glasses are a little bit more tinted than you think they are.

[Anonymous No.1634441]

>>1634346
No you fuck, I'm trying to explain to him why they aren't trying to animate over exaggerated retarded facial expression at every chance they get.

[Anonymous No.1634472]

>>1634131

Noein

[Anonymous No.1634476]

Come on man, know yo' key animators.

[Anonymous No.1634478]

>>1634131

The anime is Noein. That cut was done by "web-animator-turned-industry-animator" Ryo-Timo.

[Anonymous No.1634479]

>>1634377
>>1634396
It was a guess, but alright, let me list the ones I liked and highlight the ones I thought were great with a "!"
From 2004 onwards:
Belleville Rendezvous(!), Hair high, Howl's Moving Castle, The Incredibles, Corpse Bride(!) Wallace and Gromit, Tales from Earthsea, Persepolis(!), Wall-E, Ratatouille, Fantastic Mr. Fox(!), Mary and Max (!!!), Coraline(!), The Princess and the Frog, The Secret of Kells(!), Nocturna(!), Tangled(!), The Illusionist(!) Leafie, Hen into the wild(!), The Rabbi's Cat, Rango, Brave, Frankenweenie, A Cat in Paris(!) Paranorman(!), Pirates(!), Magasin des Suicides(!), the Croods, Ernest et Celestine(!), Arrietty(!), From up on Poppy Hill, Ponyo, Idiots and Angels(!), Frozen.

So that's 36 that I liked and 18 that I loved. 2004 was probably the worst year for animation since the 70's, though.

[Anonymous No.1634484]

>>1634441
I wasn't talking about the John K/Bob Clampett kind of attitude and personality animation. I can understand why you wouldn't be too compelled by that stuff

[Anonymous No.1634491]

>>1633881
>>1633941

It's frankly not different from shows like Tom and Jerry and Looney Toons.

Anyway, eastern animation mostly known for excelling at action choreography and composition. It's what differentiates them from western animation. They don't aim for expression within facial features, but rather through the figure.

Narrative-wise, it's praised for tackling subject matter uncommon in western animation. Psychology a la Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, Serial Experiments Lain, etc. Titan AE, Aeon Flux, and Heavy Metal also tackled adult-like themes, but there's a lack of those shows.

[Anonymous No.1634528]

>>1634491
but figures getting exploded around don't express anything. A good pose shows the expression, and the facial animation only pluses it.
I'm not saying that "Eastern animation doesn't doesn't have expression or personality" by any means

[Anonymous No.1634540]

>>1634528
>talking shit about magnetic rose
I wont allow this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4f9qlTylKk

[Anonymous No.1634549]

>>1634540
I'm not shit-talking anything.
The video you just posted has plenty of expressive stuff in it, but the action and explosion gifs don't show anything about what the character is thinking or feeling. The action may be the point of the scene, and that's fine, I'm just saying that the personality isn't there

[Anonymous No.1634551]

>>1634549
yeah but calling the whole thing unexpressive is just plain wrong. In fact everyone in this thread that say anime is not as good as western animation is objectively wrong. most japanese directors are inspired on western animations and I mean sure western masters are pretty much the top shit, but the thing everyone has to understand is that animation as an art form is pretty much dead in the west because the companies in charge of it always market it to children, while in japan, even with the whole moe thing going on, it's still pushing forward and producing high quality stuff.
all Im saying is that the people who cant accept that anime is on par to western animation should just get the fuck out of the thread.

[Anonymous No.1634555]

>>1634491
What the fuck are you on about? The only anime that look half-decent are the few that actually try to tackle something other than the generic shit they usually churn out.
I'd say less than 1% of anime actually deals with adult themes or has original/quality animation.
Granted, the few that do, really stand out as some of the best animation that's been made.

[Anonymous No.1634556]

>>1634540
>Hiroyuki Okiura

How can one man be so based?

[Anonymous No.1634576]

>>1634549
you're kinda missing the point.
criticizing the expressiveness of that animation is like saying reality isn't expressive.

this is like the difference between cartooning and realism.
the same applies here: disney type animation tries to exagerrate and express in that certain way, but the example video that anon posted focuses more on the movements appearing naturalistic and life like.
the focus is completely different between both of them.

that type of expressiveness you see in >>1634528 is not a MUST for animation.
expressiveness is only a must-have for cartooning.
as for animation, there are many schools of thought that focus on other factors than this kind of expressiveness.

[Anonymous No.1634579]

>>1634551
If this was the 90s, I'd say you were correct. Back then, the japs were still very creative and experimental. Today, quality animation is much rarer. There are occasional gems, but even the Japanese directors themselves admit that Japanese animation is in a massive rut due to the otaku fanbase.

The problem with western animation is as you say though. It usually boils down to comedy animation, family feature films or shit for kids, stoners and autists. Their only advantage are their massive budgets, which allows for smooth, but cartoony animation.

The clip posted above from Magnetic Rose is a very good example of quality Japanese animation, though. The animation is extremely natural, despite the fact that they don't have the enormous amount of frames per second that Disney might have. The style is also fairly naturalistic, the animation understated but still highly expressive and the characters are even shaded, something that is rare in western animation.

The Brits made a few good movies back in the late 70s and early 80s, with their riduclously depressing Watership Down and Plague Dogs. That's probably the closest you'll find in the west to adult animation.

[Anonymous No.1634582]

>>1634576
>>that type of expressiveness you see in >>1634528 is not a MUST for animation.

Not the guy you're replying to, but this is a point I feel more animators could learn from. For some reason I'll never understand, western animation seems to have completely dropped their more realistic approach to animation they in their feature films up until the 60s, maybe. While there certainly were wildly exaggerated cartoon characters, especially the animals and comic relief, they had a tendency to animate many of the human characters in a much more realistic manner.
Cinderella is a good example, where the serious characters are portrayed with lifelike animation, and the rest are cartoony. It's like they used realism to portray grace, and cartooning to portray silly characters.

[Anonymous No.1634649]

>>1632514
Those films did make an impact, they are popular. But the correlation between praise from adoring fans and the actual measure of what makes the animation great, doesn't always signify the other.

The question to ask here, pertaining to the quality of animation ALONE, is: what makes the work outstanding? Is it timeless? Can its quality endure the evolution of technological advances?

The Rescuers is a shit film, but it's animation is timeless. Howl's Moving Castle is great film, but it's animation is nothing special, just more. Anastasia is a horrible film, but Bluth's timing is impeccable. Frozen is a catchy film, but its animation is boring

[Anonymous No.1634658]

>>1634576
>>1634582
>Exaggeration not necessary

the attitude that animation should replicate realism is stupid pointless and completely misses out on the power that animation can do outside realism. And that is what Anime fails to understand. The infatuation of making the movements look realistic has possible and adding some exaggeration in hindsight produces horrendously vapid art. They literally have to hang on to the merits of the story just to stay in the spotlight. It's pathetic. It makes the whole thing superficial and dumbs down the audience and future artist. Thank you japan, thank you for fucking up an art form, thank you.

"Actions should be stronger than real life. To do so take full advantage of the medium." --Ham Luske

"Animation is not so much the art of drawings that move as it is the art of movement that is drawn." --Norman McLaren

[Anonymous No.1634673]

>>1634658
>not appreciating both realistic and exaggerated forms of animation

Step up m8

[Anonymous No.1634679]

Since this is relevant to this thread, what level of technical drawing is required to do animation. And i mean, actual good animation

[Anonymous No.1634690]

>>1634658
That is genuinely the most retarded thing I've ever read.
The downfall of anime is that it's too realistic? 99% of all anime is ridiculously exaggerated, moreso than western animation. There are only a handful of anime with realistic movement, and they're usually far better than any of the usual crap.

One of the reasons exaggeration has been important in animation, is because it's aimed at children. Children aren't very good at getting subtleties, so wildly exaggerated cartoons are better to keep them entertained.

That being said, I genuinely hope you're trying to troll me with that retarded comment of yours. If you genuinely believe realistic animation doesn't hold any merit, and that everything needs to be exaggerated, you're an infantile moron. You're the reason Michael Bay is successful.

[Anonymous No.1634725]

shingeki no kyojin has awesome animations and proves that you can do fucking badass things without rotoscoping

[Anonymous No.1634727]

>>1634725
this is fucking terrible though, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though.

[Anonymous No.1634761]

>>1634725
Call it attack on titan you fucking weaboo. And it still has shit animation.

[Anonymous No.1634771]

>tfw no more hand-drawn Disney animated films

[Anonymous No.1634798]

>>1634761
>Call it attack on titan
Not him, but the correct translation is 'attack OF titan'.

[Anonymous No.1634806]

>>1634798
no that's not the correct translation

[Anonymous No.1634813]

>>1634690
No. In the history of animation, western pioneers discovered that trying to make the animation look realistic rendered unflattering results. But they also discovered that clarity and art can arise if the action is caricatured after its meaning is made clear. Eastern animation has yet to receive that memo.
P.s. never said anime is too realistic. Was talking about the attitude of animating movement towards that. Stop reading like an idiot.

[Anonymous No.1634825]

>>1634806
>>1634798
>translating at all
Do you happen to call 'Kill La Kill', 'Kill The Kill'? :^)

[Anonymous No.1634892]

>>1634679
basically you want to be able to draw any character in any pose from any angle, as a prerequisite. So that's all about being competent with breaking things down into spheres and boxes and cylinders and turning those forms around in perspective. That's about it. Doing a lot of gesture drawing is really beneficial,too, for a number of reasons. A lot of experienced animators are so used to it that they don't do much under-drawing though.
I might dump the rest of this 1993 Disney training program sample portfolio later on. Andreas Deja also posted his old folio on his blog

[Anonymous No.1635006]

>>1634761
you're so edgy your fedora can't fit your head

[Anonymous No.1635010]

>>1635006
it really does have shit animation.
and congratulation: you are a weeb

[Anonymous No.1635016]

>>1634813
>western pioneers discovered that trying to make the animation look realistic rendered unflattering results
anon pls. you just say that because you have been thought that way.
but it's simply not true.

if you have a relistic base structure(as animu stuff often does), you can also make things move in a realistic manner.
the west and the east just have a completely different take on stylization.

[Anonymous No.1635018]

[Anonymous No.1635019]

[Anonymous No.1635020]

>>1635006
Actually the Creators of the show translated it first and officially dubbed it Attack on Titan. so even though it might have a different meaning than said in jappanesse it's also more accurate than your version i would think.

[Anonymous No.1635021]

[Anonymous No.1635149]

Thanks God anime doesn't have the retarded facial expressions and exaggerated movements of western animation. That looks so dumb. The only way I can appreciate a western show (if it has good animation, that is) is concentrating on the animation alone, forgetting -what- they are animating entirely. Though it gets tiring really fast.
I wonder how people manage to not find it annoying in the long run. It's like watching clowns. It's embarrassing rather than funny.

[Anonymous No.1635209]

>>1635016
Winsor McKay, Ub Iwerks, Walt Disney and the Nine Old Men etc. concluded that attempting to adhere to realism rendered unfavorable results. Williams repeats thats in his book as well. You've been learning from some poor sources.

[Anonymous No.1635527]

>>1634220
update

[Anonymous No.1635533]

>>1635527
>splash
Of shit and mud?

[Anonymous No.1635556]

>>1635533
its supposed to be dirt and mud, yeah.

[Anonymous No.1635567]

>>1635527
>>1635556
It looks really weird, kind of like we're looking at somebody shooting a bullet into whipped cream, which instantly hardens.

If it's a splash, it should be more liquidy. If it's an explosion in a field or whatever, the particles should scatter more, be affected by wind, etc. At the moment it doesn't read as any familiar substance.

[Anonymous No.1635618]

>>1629478
>>1631124
what program are you guys using?

[Anonymous No.1635815]

>>1635618
Go Animate

[Anonymous No.1636712]

>>1635618
Pencil2D has made me appreciate the convience of Flash all the more.
But that's what I get for using Flash first instead of drawing shit out by hand the long way.

[Anonymous No.1637114]

>>1634806
Prove it. Otherwise, you cannot into japanese.

[Anonymous No.1637296]

I just wanna say, anyone amazed by 11SecondClub? The stuff there is insane (at least the top stuff), and yet the ratings are so consistently harsh, I don't think I've ever seen anything above or even equal to 9. And the critiques are fascinating to look at, even for a non-practitioner.

[Anonymous No.1637394]

This is the first thing I've ever animated. Crits?

http://youtu.be/IWkT7uKr8sQ

[Anonymous No.1637411]

>>1634771
That looks 50 times better than the shitty dreamworks-esque 3D that they chose for the movie.

[Anonymous No.1637430]

>>1633570
spend some more time considering the thickness of the different strokes, IE: outlines compared to face lines, otherwise good

[Anonymous No.1637433]

>>1635527
yeah looks like an anus

[Anonymous No.1637532]

>>1634798
進撃の巨人

しんげき
shingeki

Shingeki means charge or advance.

突撃 is how you say "attack"

の

particle making something possessive.

巨人

This just means titan or giant. (More correctly it means giant)

The show should be called "The Advancement of the Giants" or "The Giants Advance/Charge"

[Anonymous No.1637535]

>>1637532
Correction, "The Giant's Advance/Charge"

[Anonymous No.1637538]

>>1637532
so it is 'of' basically.

[Anonymous No.1637539]

>>1637538
Yes, Attack of Titan is more accurate than Attack on Titan which is completely different.

However, both are technically wrong.

[Anonymous No.1637605]

>>1637532

No, the correct translation is simply "Attack Giants." Because of the word order, it is literally "Attack's Giants/Giants of attacking." But rather than using it as a genitive, the の is treated as the particle of a noun adjunct for smoother translation into English.

I think what they really intended with the title is "Attack-On Giants", where "Attack-On" is an adjective.

[Anonymous No.1637613]

>>1637605
This is correct.

[Anonymous No.1637614]

i thought they couldn't use attack of the titans/attack of titans because of copyright reasons..

[Anonymous No.1637736]

>>1637539
'Giant of advance' then.

[Anonymous No.1637764]

>this thread
I forgot how obnoxious some people can be when it comes to anime.

[Anonymous No.1637788]

Okay, uhh. Hm. This was derailed, I guess.

Can I get crits on this? It's he first thing I've ever animated. I want to know how I can improve my takes.

[Anonymous No.1637795]

>>1637788
i like it but i feel you can push the second half to make it more dynamic.

i don't know shit about animation though so take that with a grain of salt.

[Anonymous No.1637864]

Alright I have a question. Does the layout stage come after all of the storyboards are done, or are they both done simultaneously?

[Anonymous No.1637866]

>>1637788
The lines are kind of jumpy, unless you are going for an EEnE-type look. The balloon and face also don't look very round, not sure if that was intentional or not. It might look cooler if the string had more motion to it (let it actually swing up and slap the face instead of just lifting the end).

[Anonymous No.1638211]

>>1637866
EEnE Is actually exactly what I wanted, haha. I love the outlines trembling in the show. The outline is intentional, the attached picture is my concept of the character. (Using "character" lightly, considering it's just a balloon.)

As for the facepalming, I'm having trouble bringing the string to life as an arm, or whatever appendage, but I'm trying to pay attention to it as a way to portray emotion. If you look at it when he gets mad initially, it shakes a bit. I think that looks good. If that covers the criticism, I'm going to move on from takes in general.

[Anonymous No.1638218]

>>1637866
Forgot to upload the reference. Also forgot to animate his toothpick, dammit.

[Anonymous No.1638224]

>>1637788
>mad balloon
ugh this is a stupid idea

[Anonymous No.1638462]

[Anonymous No.1638460]

Reminder

[Anonymous No.1638464]

>>1638460
i dn't get it.

[Anonymous No.1638646]

>>1638464
Compare >>1638460 to >>1638462. The first is the original storyboard and the second is the finished product created by lovely out-sourced animators in Canada.

[Anonymous No.1638722]

>>1638462
The background in last row using WAY too saturated colors, i can barely see what's going on here because of this luxury look curtains that take all attention. I'm not professional but i think objects in main focus should have more details and more saturated colors then others.

[Anonymous No.1638726]

>>1638646

Damn, are all Canadian animators retarded or something? Is shitty, angular flash tweens all they teach up there?

[Anonymous No.1638728]

>>1634725
That's done in CG and then drawn over. It's pretty common place in anime. Sometimes they just do the entire scene in 3D and then draw over select objects like the characters.

[Anonymous No.1638733]

>>1638728
I should correct myself. It's gotten pretty common, like in the past few years.

[Anonymous No.1638751]

>>1638460
>>1638462
The.Gnomon.Workshop.Anatomy.of.a.Short.Film.Vol.1-iNKiSO

The.Gnomon.Workshop.Anatomy.of.a.Short.Film.Vol.2.DVD-iNKiSO

Maybe these will help

[Anonymous No.1638754]

>>1638726

No, sadly some of the best animators are Canadian too so we can't just ban Canadian animation.

[Anonymous No.1638900]

>>1637864
p-please respond

[Anonymous No.1639008]

>>1637864
>>1638900

layout comes after boards are done. typically the pipeline goes something like: script/designs>boards>layouts>animation>compositing

also depending on if it's an east or west production, the voice recording will be done somewhere before or after animation. if it's western it's done before animation, if it's eastern it's done after.

[Anonymous No.1639229]

>>1638726
>>1638754
The feel when I'm Canadian and I know how bad the same overused flash styles are over the years. You know what there has to be an animation program that allows quality to be made and the speed of flash people would thank me for that.

pic related: my people's lives in work

[Anonymous No.1639291]

>>1638728
looks like the background is full CG but the character drawn.

[Anonymous No.1639297]

>>1639229
Actually, I'd say Jimmy two shoes is one of the better shitty kids cartoons these days. At least its not Johnny Test Which was apparently done on cells for the first season

[Anonymous No.1639298]

>>1639229
>that allows quality to be made and the speed of flash
Yeah, its name was Genndy Tartakovsky.

[Anonymous No.1639475]

>>1639229
>Talking shit about Jimmy Two-Shoes
Leave this country, you don't deserve to be part of our home and native land.

[Anonymous No.1640107]

>>1639229
Canada is such a beta country

[Anonymous No.1640192]

>>1639475
Whatever Steven Harper is pretty much raping this beautiful country since 2006 selling land to the oil companies and the overruledness of China for the sake of moolah

[Anonymous No.1641015]

>>1640107
>No poutine
You sicken me.
>>1640192
Meh, there's still tons of beautiful countryside. I mean there's like 3 people to every square kilometre.
And even if Harper drowns us in Asians, at least we'll have that kick ass public radio.

[Anonymous No.1641017]

>>1641015
>at least we'll have that kick ass public radio
Northern Ontario here, eat a dick, our radio is awful.

I'm glad I was fired recently, because I probably would have killed someone if I had to hear Katy Parry roar one more god damn time.

[Anonymous No.1641307]

>>1640107
>no beer and smokes
>no pick up
what is this

[Anonymous No.1641400]

>>1641017
I was talking about the CBC, don't know what the fuck exists way up there.

[Anonymous No.1642193]

Please help. I know I'm supposed to work in threes so where's the last frame supposed to go? Also any other critiques for this in general?

[Anonymous No.1642203]

is it possible to do traditional animation without any use of lightbox or anything but by just flipping? if not, I'll prolly build a DIY lightbox.

[Anonymous No.1642212]

>>1640107

[Anonymous No.1642335]

>>1642212
this makes me hate the show even more

[Anonymous No.1642343]

>>1642335
kek

[Anonymous No.1642537]

>>1642203
Glen Keane apparently almost never turns on the lightbox while he's working, so it's possible. You will want the pegs to keep the pages from slipping around, though.