Oil Paint general

[Anonymous No.1452870]

Hello /ic/, i'm a complete beginner in both drawing, and in painting. In fact i've only ever painted a couple of times in my life, just to give you an idea of how lacking I am in experience.

Recently however, the idea ofpainting has appealed to me, and I very much would like to get proficient at it.

My medium of choice is Oil Paints, due to longer drying times, though if any of you think I should be using acrylics instead, the please say so.

Oil paintings look much richer to me, and that's why I really want to become good at making them.

Please feel free to share any tips useful information about Oil Painting in this thread, such as recommended thinners /solvents, canvas', technique, etc..

One last thing, if I am a complete novice to both drawing and painting, but eventually would like to become proficient at both, should I spend time learning gestures and construction, before painting?
(I can draw, but not at a great level.)

[Anonymous No.1452965]

bump

[Anonymous No.1452976]

Bump

[Anonymous No.1452989]

If you're beginning to paint, use acrylic first, as its simpler and less expensive. You can always mix retardants in with your acrylics to slow the drying time, bit it's not like you'll know any of the painter's tricks that take advantage of alla prima painting, so faster drying time might be better, as you can correct yourself more frequently. Oil paints need mineral spirits to clean your brushes and linseed oil (or a hundred other mediums) for glazes and fluidity. Acrylics just need water.

But I don't think you should even begin painting before you've got a strong foundation in drawing. Right none you need to learn the fundamentals, and that is more cheap,y and easily accomplished via drawing. Don't try to run before you can crawl.

[Anonymous No.1452990]

>>1452989
you can clean brushes with oil if you dont like turps, also i disagree that you need a foundation in drawing before you start painting

[Anonymous No.1452997]

>>1452989
>retardant

[Anonymous No.1453050]

>>1452990
It's not about being good at drawing before you get good at painting. It's a matter of learning the fundamentals, and it's quicker and cheaper to learn the fundamentals with graphite and paper than with oil paint and canvas.

[Anonymous No.1453055]

>>1453050
well obviously not oils, but doing dead-colour images with acrylics is fine, and you learn the painting fundamentals first, which imo might be the way to go as they translate to graphite better than graphite translates to paint.

[Anonymous No.1453060]

>>1452997
it seem like you dont entirely understand where you are

[Anonymous No.1453064]

Just finished my beginning painting class yesterday. I feel like it's pretty fresh on my mind, so I'll rant a little. These were my final assignment. They're not very good and I feel that I might as well post them since one is from life and the other is from a photo.

I prefer painting, but I'm not very good with the pencil drawing aspect. I stick to ink sketching quite a bit.

Just got 21 tubes of paint for 52 dollars at some bullshit sale from the local store.

The advantage to oils is that they dry the same color, for the most part, as opposed to acrylics.

Use a DVD case for a palette, that way you can go plein air without worrying about sacrificing your nice mix or ruining your stuff or wrapping in plastic wrap like a loon. Take it with you wherever.

Use a lot less paint then you think you might need. People tend to use a fuckton of paint while starting. If you need more, you can still achieve a great amount of opacity with just a little extra thinner. It goes a long way.

Don't draw from photos. I hate drawing from photos, but my teacher required we try it for our final. Work from life.

Gamblin's Radiant White is my personal favorite white.

Paint names, for a good part, are named from the metals that are in the paint, or atleast a main ingredient. Don't you go fucking shoving it in your mouth.

If you're going to use Payne's grey, use it as a base for blue, and try to keep it outside of your black to white spectrum when you can.

The best way to achieve a painted "line" is not to draw the line, but to paint the line's color as a block and then paint more blocks on top of it on each side of the line. the exact opposite of what I did for the strings at the bottom of the KPP painting. I worked on it last-minute. Don't work with oil paints at the last minute.

[Anonymous No.1453065]

Naples Yellow blended with white is a good replacement for white.

Paint a lot of fabrics and metal pieces to learn how gradients work and how they don't. Don't try to paint a lot of huge bland objects that don't have a lot of sides when learning. It tends to turn out badly unless you know what you're doing, and you will feel discouraged.

Don't try that glazing bull. It will keep you from learning how to actually look at what you are painting. A lot of people start doing that and treating it like it's fucking multiply.

When starting, try to avoid painting figures until you get a good grasp of how to paint objects and pick up where colors reflect and how you would blend them.

Speaking of blending: If you cannot blend the color, you do not deserve to have it.

[Anonymous No.1453070]

>>1453064
>Use a DVD case for a palette


Holy fucking shit give this man an award

[Anonymous No.1453071]

>>1453070

Well, it's a mixed bag. The bigger the palette of colors your using, the more monopolized things get when you're mixing colors over a wider space. Part of the advantage to using less paint, I guess. I can't argue with the fact that it fits right in my purse and I don't have to care about it, but it is a bit of a downgrade when painting something large.

[Anonymous No.1453072]

>>1453064
Kyary's eyes are a little too far apart, also her eyebags are a big more defined. Other than that it looks pretty good.

[Anonymous No.1453073]

>>1453072

Pfft, thanks but I messed up wuite a bit in the drawing process. I think I did the background and whatnote fine for not using a grid like a fag, but her nose is too far apart, the eyes are far off. And zoomed in on those nets she has around her net, they're fucking bad.

At first I had her eyebags more defined, but I lightened them up with a lighter fleshtone at the last minute. In person it's not as bad as my phone implies, but I agree that she looks a little too Photoshopped than I would like in the final product.

[Anonymous No.1453075]

Also OP, yellows are good to spend a little more money on. Cheap yellows tend to be awfully translucent and despite having fifty-sumthin hue names and variations all tend to be very similar.

Stay the fuck away from black paint. You can always mix browns and blues together to get something dark and fits in the spectrum just fine.

Purples are a bitch to mix manually. Go by a tube or two and mix from a base purple.

[Anonymous No.1453112]

>>1453075
>Stay the fuck away from black paint. You can always mix browns and blues together to get something dark and fits in the spectrum just fine.

This. So much this.


Also guises, read about lost and found edges to get more pro feel to your work.

[Anonymous No.1453214]

>>1452870
>wasting all that paint

[Anonymous No.1453220]

>>1453112
dark red and green might even be better.

[Anonymous No.1453249]

>>1453220

Dark reds and emeralds are a good way to emulate Payne's Grey. I do recommend this.

On that note, Green gold mixed with reds is a good way to cover some good olive skin tones.

[Anonymous No.1453386]

Question, is turpentine necessary when painting with oils?

Are there any safer thinners that you can recommend?

[Anonymous No.1453407]

>>1453386
generally, here anyway, you use gum turps which doesn't smell that much and dries really fast.there are quite a few other alternatives, there is even an odorless one but i haven't used so i can't testify to how odorless or how turps it really is, ask in the store or look around for an article on the interwebs.

you can paint without any solvent but that means you use more oil and everything takes forever to dry.

[Anonymous No.1453430]

>>1453407

Yeah, I'm just really conscience of the fumes lingering in my room for too long.

I found out you can buy water mixable oil paint, where water acts as a thinner, and a way to clean the brushes. They're more expensive, but I don't know how effective they are.

[Anonymous No.1453436]

>>1452989
It's not exactly less expensive. If you buy the good stuff (golden or liquitex), you end up spending a ton of money.

You pay for pigment, a small tube of oil paint has much more pigment and will go a long way. With acrylic, the same applies - when you buy an expensive tube of Golden, you're getting more pigment than you'd get in that shitty BASICS crap. When I first started painting, I used that and had to go over the same section with 3 or 4 layers of paint to get the color to be rich. It was such a pain in the ass. With the pricey golden paint, one layer is good.

To anyone painting, NEVER BUY THE CHEAP PAINT, even if you're brand new, you'll give yourself a giant headache.

[Anonymous No.1453441]

>>1453075
this man knows

I get a rich oil black by mixing burnt umber with pthalo blue.

[Anonymous No.1453459]

>>1453436

What about 'Simply Oil Paint' From Daler - Rowney?

Is that fine to use?

[Anonymous No.1453465]

>>1453459
I'm not sure what that is, just avoid "student" and "budget" rands.

[Anonymous No.1453506]

>>1453465

Oh, it's not cheap, so I guess it's okay.

[Anonymous No.1453513]

>>1453506
depends on the definition of cheap. I spent $15 on a single tube of cad yellow medium yesterday and it was worth it.

[Anonymous No.1453532]

>>1453513

Well it's about £10/11 for 24x12ml tubes which is about $15.

That's generally the price of oil paint packs in the UK. So it's average.

[Anonymous No.1453597]

>>1453386
Only an amature here but
I've used odorless mineral spirits for a long time. I've never had problems with smell or headaches or nausea or anything like that. I'm talking about Odorless Mineral Spirit you can buy from hobby and craft shops. Though this may be a little more expensive. I've found I can get low-odor mineral spirits from a hardware store for a bit cheaper and seems to do just as good of a job. Though this may depend on your own sensitivity to that type of stuff. If Turps is just too much, try low odor first and if still go to your local hobby/craft for odorless.

[Anonymous No.1453650]

Anyone know where to buy cheap canvas/ canvas textured paper?

Where do you usually get your canvas from? And for how much?

[Anonymous No.1453682]

>>1453386

Gamsol is something else that's great to look into. To be honest, I use mineral spirits since it only costs 12 dollars to purchase enough to finish the goddamn war. I use either of those, but it's also something else I use in a minimum.

I actually have allergic reactions when 30+ people are painting in a room and I pass out, but I'm not sure if it's the oil or if it's the thinners out and about when everyone is using straight up turp.

The thing with thinner is still that "less is more," which is the same with paint.

[Anonymous No.1453685]

Cadmium yellows can be purchased cheaply if you decide to mix them well. You shouldn't be using cadmium yellows straight from the tube anyhow, so it's pretty much a-okay to mix it in with a color that you don't necessarily need just to make it opaque. You can always mix it with something else. You just need to stick some white, naples yellow, a line green or cerulean blue to get you started with the color and not have to deal with that see-through bull for much longer.

Less is more, anon. If you can start with the student brands and learn how to pick up on the flaws (with oil paint, you seriously do get what you pay for), you'll greatly appreciate the things you can and cannot do. I use a set from Walmart for only 10 dollars and eat through one of those to handle all of my underpaintings or some washes. It's hella cheap paint, the Daler Rowney stuff, but it's a handy tool when you don't want to waste any of your Gamblin.

Blick paint is good. I personally picked up 21 tubes of WindsorNewton for like 60 bucks. When it originally goes for 7-15 bucks a tube, you don't really need to give a damn.

If you learn the tricks to deal with the cheap paint, you will learn to love the expensive paint as you go one.

[Anonymous No.1453687]

>>1453650

At my school, we're required to make our canvas, see:
>>1453064
ourselves. If you want information on that, I can give you the gist of how to do that. I'll just have to whip out MS Paint and I'd be drawing it with a laptop trackpad, God help.

Otherwise, you can pick up some gallery quality stuff at Aaron Brother's (which is Michael's sister store with more expensive gear), or Michaels sells canvas in packs of like five or four or three for like 25 dollars depending on the size.

[Anonymous No.1453720]

>>1453685

Thank you for the tips. I'm thinking of purchasing the Daler Rowney paints to get me started, as they are the most affordable.

Do you have any tips or a general guide on how you got started oil painting? What's best to paint first, landscapes, portraits etcc?

>>1453687

Yes please, anon. I'm interested.

[Anonymous No.1453790]

>>1453720

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7iRiF1k7s4

I actually found a video that sort of matches our process.

She seems to be overcomplicating things somewhat, and she's missing the rounds.

One thing I left out of my tutorial was that you can also nail some right angle traiangular flat pieces to the corners to keep your canvas from warping around the corners just a little. The larger the triangles, the better the results.

[Anonymous No.1453794]

>>1453720

you will definitely get what you pay for. If anything, I think that starting with acrylic may be better, since you can get better quiality acrylics for the same price you can get the DRs. Like I mentioned, it's really just good for washes and underpaintings in the long run. They work more like tempera paints, but that may be because I started out pretty spoiled in the burando of oil paints I used at first. The forewarning is there, but I do hope they work out for you.


I used to have to paint from photos in high school, down to the teacher teaching us about grids, which was all middle-school tier. I hated painting back then, because she had her own rules about blocking the shapes and then blending, which the process I simply do not use ever.

I actually go with still lifes. Do your sketch on the canvas, then do a layer of gesso. It will blur it out a bit, but don't worry about how strict your lineart is. It's not water color. You have the luxury of being able to fix something after it dries, or even go over it while it's wet and get something out of it. Oil paint is very, very forgiving.

Once I took beginning painting in uni, we were just given still lifes. I fucking love painting still lifes. I like to take progress shots of my work whenever I post on (forgive me here) Facebook. I rarely post on tumblr, so otehrwise I'd just link you to that. I'll find some shots of my older progress work in the beginning of the semester and bring it up in a next post.

[Anonymous No.1453806]

>>1453720

I hope this proves to be useful somehow. It's a step-by-step that's not really a step-by-step of my process. Not that it's a good one.

Just remember that underpaintings are good.

For the Kyary Pamyu Pamyu painting I posted earlier, that has the flattest, orangest underpainting the world has ever seen. None of it really shows through though. Just don't go with a white underpainting. It makes things harder than it needs to be. You also lose the option of going thin in places because it makes the whole thing look hideously unfinished. Use a base color underneath to get rid of that apprehension.

[Anonymous No.1453808]

>>1453806

Part 2.

Remember that this is just how I do it, and if there are other people that actually go to art school and they have a good way of covering it, then I'd like to hear some pointers too. I just go to a local university and basically go out of my way to do everything they tell me not to do. (see: blocking in values then blending them)

[Anonymous No.1454173]

>>1453790

Thanks, that looks interesting. May consider my hands at making one in the future.

>>1453794

The problem is that it's really hard to find Gamblin in the UK. There's only one stockist online, and it's quite expensive.

Are there any alternatives to Daler-Rowney, that are better for relatively a similar price?

Is doing a gesso necessary, if you buy canvases that have already been primed?

Do you recommend doing under0paintings with oils only? Or is Acrylic okay too, (as it's just an underpainting?

>>1453806
>>1453808

Wow, thanks alot! Just what I was looking for; a step by step showing the method.

Appreciate it.

[Anonymous No.1454267]

What books does /ic/ reccomendates to learn how to paint with oils?

[Anonymous No.1454470]

>>1454173

If you have a canvas that's already primed, it won't be a big deal. I'd recommend sanding it just a little, since some canvas providers don't bother to sand the gesso down and there are bumps to and fro. It's a personal choice. As long as the canvas doesn't let any light through when you hold it up to the sun, as in you can't see any light through any threads anywhere, then it's pretty much safe.

I like doing underpaintings in oil personally, but if you let it dry than it doesn't quite matter. I used orange acrylic for the underpainting for Pamyu Pamyu, and none of it shows through. Acrylic can go under oil, just not over it. It's part of the "fat over lean" idea. If you have something that dries quicker dry over something that takes longer to dry, it will crack later in its life.

I personally use Winsor & Newton at home, but if I have the option to, then Dick Blick paints are another cheap alternative. I don't know if those are available in the UK though.

Gamblin is naturally very expensive, so it's not a paint brand I use ever, unless I'm nabbing some from the class selection, as us cheapskates tend to do.

[Anonymous No.1454957]

>>1454470

Yeah, Winsor & Newton is available, so I may consider it instead. It's slight more expensive than DR though.

Got, any recommendations on brushes? Are dollar (£1) brushes fine, or is quality really important? Got any brands that you use for oils?

Also, thanks for your contribution to this thread, mate. It's extremely helpful and appreciated.

[Anonymous No.1454967]

>>1453465
I got some Daler-Rowney 10-pack of Oils (It was called "Graduate" or something) and it cost me $30 from some bargain hobby shop. I also got some brand called Van Gogh for like, 10 bucks, when I started with oils a few months ago. Are either of them good enough for practicing??

[Anonymous No.1454970]

>>1454957
Bargain Brushes will work, but they will not last as long. I'd recommend you buy some bargain ones to see what works and to experiment, learn how to take care of brushes, and then splurge a little on brushes.

[Anonymous No.1454972]

>>1454967

On a related note, you can purchase a 24 set of DRs (12ml tubes), for about £10 (15 bucks) over here.

[Anonymous No.1455050]

Looks like you're getting some good advice for oil materials. I'd recommend learning the basics of drawing and focusing on getting a good sketch/ base before you ump into a painting. The more you get right in the planning stages, the less you have to go back and fix wonky proportions.

[Anonymous No.1455464]

bump

[Anonymous No.1455467]

>>1452870
i you are not experienced with painting, don't start with oil imho
acryl is much easier and you will most likely get frustrated with an oil painting

[Anonymous No.1455537]

>>1455467
>acryl is much easier

I disagree with this. Without retarder, acrylics are not very fit for accurate work since its very hard to blend. With retarder, well... you could as well use oils that give you much more time and control.

Just my _opinion_.

[Anonymous No.1455546]

>>1455467

I used to be terrible with acrylics.

I started with oil first, and then I went "backwards" to acrylic and I found myself improving on them heavily. I think that it's fine learning one of the other, but I feel that there are particular rules with oil paint that you can go back to with acrylic,but not the other way around.

That's like people saying that watercolor is the easiest paint to work with, when in reality, trying to achieve good effects with it is actually a much more tedious endeavor.

[Anonymous No.1455551]

>>1455537
>>1455546
yeh, maybe it's just personal preference :P

[Anonymous No.1455799]

>>1455537
It's a matter of opinion. A lot of people find one easier than the other. The lightning fast drying time of acrylics, like gouache, makes it ideal for illustration. Oil is great because you have all the time in the world to blend, and you can scrape off things you don't like. Still, some oil painters do the underpainting in acrylic, or even more of the painting, then go in and do the rest with oil. This saves time waiting for stuff to dry, but still always the fine blending that people like with oil.

Then again, if you're not looking to do any significant impasto, you do now have the option of truly slow drying acrylic with Golden Open paint. That dries much more slowly than acrylic with retarder. On s sealed surface (as opposed to say raw canvas or paper) it can stay workable for days, depending on conditions. People also use plastic boxes to store paintings to help keep them workable, just like they do with those stay-wet acrylic palettes.

[Anonymous No.1457922]

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[Anonymous No.1458219]

>>1452997
I love you.

[Anonymous No.1459101]

bump

[Anonymous No.1459230]

^^don't listen to anyone on /ic/ about material concerns, half these people here are regurgitating hearsay and opinion/bias, and the other half are mostly right but don't actually know anything about the material science behind paint.

amien.org
goldenpaints.com

visit these two websites. sign up on amien after reading everything you can, and ask further questions. the people on that site know more then you about art materials, and often the head of Golden's technical team pops in and offers her (very well informed and researched) two cents.

amien is a forum for art material makers and artists, worth its weight in gold to young aspiring painters.

heres a tip, don't use the word gesso to refer acrylic dispersion primer and don't make claims about oil being superior to acrylic. DEFINITELY don't ask if something is archival (they will tell you it's a marketing term, and explain issues of "durability" instead) Generally, don't make any statements you aren't prepared to back up, and ask detailed, well thought out questions and you will receive utterly invaluable, expert responses.

I've learned more from reading amien then I have from materials discussions with practicing artists, books, and classes.

If you don't already know, not only is Golden one of the most ethically sound companies in the business (both to their employees and their customers), but if you email them with questions about their products, paint in general, or how to achieve an end using acrylic (or oil, they now produce williamsburg oils), you will receive a thoughtful and incredibly detailed response. For example, people ask questions like how to get extremely smooth paper like surface out of gesso, or the appearance of wax encaustic, or tips on mixing, brushes, pouring, etc

If cheap, artist quality paint is what you're after, check these guys out:

rghoilpaints.com < artist quality oil paint and student prices, they sell in glass jars, tubes, and tin cans.

tbc....

[Anonymous No.1459231]

>>1459230

contd.


novacolorpaint.com < artist quality acrylic and mediums, cult following in the mural community, but the paint is absolutely high enough grade to stand up to at least liquitex and definitely is worth trying. NOTE: a 4 ounce JAR of cadmium red is roughly five dollars from nova, try finding an artist grade equivalent to that for less then 20 USD, if not more then 30.

guerrapaint.com < this guy and his crew run a tiny artist paint material shop out of nyc. they have pigments i guarantee you've never heard of, they are the sole source for a handful of extinct or rare pigments (quinacridone violet 55!!!!!!!! quin gold!!!!!), and they offer some of the best materials for reasonable prices. pre-made paint is not a thing from these guys, but if you're willing to put in a little extra effort once you think you understand the mechanics of acrylic or oil, they offer pigment dispersions (the colorant in paint dispersed in water or alkyd for oil + a few dispersion agents) to make your own, custom paint to your standards. pigment dispersions are what are used by professional paint companies already, and allow for making paint with a greater degree of control (and colors to select from, their pigment chart will cause you to drool...), in addition to saving money. they also offer advice on mixing your own paint, and generally have materials others dont.

http://www.kamapigment.com/ < french canadian pigment and paint site, somewhere between rgh and nova and guerra, they offer tons of awesome shit, but i have to go smoke weed now so just cruise their site and check it out.

[Anonymous No.1459232]

>>1459230
>^^don't listen to anyone on /ic/ about material concerns
Stopped reading right there.

[Anonymous No.1459234]

>>1459232

your loss, i pointed you in the direction of the best resources on the internet, and i didn't give advice on material concerns, i gave advice on where to get the ACTUAL information and talk to people who know their shit...

[Anonymous No.1459246]

>>1459234
aspies can't into sarcasm, my condolences.

[Anonymous No.1459400]

>>1459246
Stop being such a dick, it's not helpful.

This is a good thread. Lots to read.

[Anonymous No.1459665]

>>1459400

I agree, I hope the insight continues to get shared.

[Anonymous No.1459690]

I need to paint a large format canvas, what should I use for thinner for the background which will be a umber with white or blue mix gradated. I just want to fill the background without wasting too much paint

[Anonymous No.1459692]

>>1459400
lrn2humor aspie life ain't all pencil paint and pussy

[Anonymous No.1459696]

>>1459400
lrn2humor aspie life ain't all pencil paint and pussy

[Anonymous No.1459697]

>>1459400
To be fair, you are being a bit of a baby about something so insignificant. You should probably just ignore it if it really bothers you.

[Anonymous No.1459794]

>>1459697
Maybe you think I am the guy he was harassing. I'm not, but either way, it doesn't matter. I told a douche to stop derailing the thread. Pretty straightforward.

[Anonymous No.1460564]

Can anyone recommend what brushes they use?

[Anonymous No.1461114]

>>1460564

Also, what are the real differences between working with flats and rounds?

Can you stick to just a single brush, when working on a painting?

[Anonymous No.1461192]

>>1461114
Depends on the style you go for. For indirect painting (i.e. glazing and so on) that wouldn't be the way to go. If you want to do smooth blending, even less so. You'll want a fan brush for the blending. You'll at least need some kind of wide-ish brush for glazing and for sealing surfaces and doing imprimatura or big background things. You might get a mop or something for that. I have a huge one from Blick called a Mega Brush, which is a super-wide white nylon filbert #40.

[Anonymous No.1461194]

>>1461192
If you weren't doing much or any blending, you might not need a fan brush, although some might use one for various effects. If I were limiting my brushes, I'd go for a filbert, first and foremost. Basically you want to begin with the biggest possible brush for the job, and stick to the same brush for as long as possible. It's very likely that for the finer stuff, especially around your focal point, you'll want something like a smaller round brush.

I use acrylic, so I don't know what brand to recommend. Brushes that handle both acrylic and oil are common, but really an acrylic brush should be a bit softer than an oil brush. You kind of have to know what you want. I go to Blick or wherever and feel the brushes. I've never bought a brush for myself online. Every one is different and you want to make sure it's not splayed and such. I generally wait for sales or wait until I have a good coupon because decent brushes are a bit pricey. My brushes are all different brands.

[Anonymous No.1461198]

>>1461192
>I have a huge one from Blick called a Mega Brush, which is a super-wide white nylon filbert #40.

Filbert, by the way.

[Anonymous No.1461218]

I need to paint a large format canvas, what should I use for thinner for the background which will be a umber with white or blue mix gradated. I just want to fill the background without wasting too much paint/money

I usually mix my own medium but that is mainly to slow the drying time of the oils.

Should I thin with linseed oil? Stand oil?

[Anonymous No.1461862]

I been reading about Rockwell's painting techniques and it mentions he painted over layers of varnish.

What kind of varnish did he used? What varnish can I use?

[Anonymous No.1462579]

How hard is the transition to working digitally, after learning traditional technique?

[Anonymous No.1462776]

>>1462579
It's much easier than transitioning to digital without learning traditional technique.

[Anonymous No.1464154]

>>1462776

bump

[Anonymous No.1466029]

bump

[Anonymous No.1467055]

>>1466029

keeping the thread alive

[Anonymous No.1467105]

>>1467055
Bump after bump, but why? Add something new to the thread or let it reach its inevitable end.