/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

comicbros, if I'm writing a comic, should I bother scripting it in a text editor first or just jump straight to storyboarding?

>>6835258
Karoshi Crap

>>6835560
100% text editor

Nothing kills drawer faster than drawing comic, being like 50 pages in only to realize the story doesn't make sense. Think and write first, start drawing only once your story has a point, is interesting and it pleases you.

>>6835679
I think he means the actual dialogue and such, not the plot
no point trying to write a comic without being able to see how it fits into panels, you’ll have to gut have the script once you start storyboarding
there’s a reason you start with the text boxes and not art

>>6835560
Scripts in their true sense - like literally writing out every event like stage directions - are most useful when you're working with an editor or co-artist, since obviously, communication is paramount there. As a solo artist, you can jot down quick notes and general directions and let the rest sit in your head.

For dialogue and narration, this is a preference thing: some artists write down only the most important words and phrases and then fill in the page with the appropriate dialogue, others very deliberately plan out every text box.

>>6835258
Definitely a lot closer to Toriyama than the other 3, and my output suffers for it. Every single time I go in thinking "I'll just do the fastest shittiest doodles I can just to get the idea down" and end up putting way too much effort into the storyboard drawings.

>>6835740
toriyama shat out a chapter in 2 days or less

>>6835560
do an outline, then storyboards

No need for an elaborate script. Use a script if you're uncomforatable storyboarding

>>6835560
some mangakas jump straight to the storyboard
others write a few plot points first

>>6836881
I wasn't saying I'm as good as Toriyama, lol. I was saying that out of those 4, my storyboards look closest to his.
And that "2 day" figure, even if it's true, almost certainly is referring to the inking not the storyboarding. The storyboards go through at least one round of revision with the editor, and Toriyama's had plenty of major revisions. It's one of the reasons the weekly schedule is insaneo mode and it's why most other author's storyboards look like scribbles. It's because they had maybe 1 day to write & storyboard a 20ish page chapter and then there's a good chance they'll have to partially or even entirely redo it after meeting with their editor.

>>6835560
A lot of classic comics were drawn before dialogue was finished. Just having a concept of a story and filling in the blanks with words later can work.

Somewhere between Oda and Araki.

>>6835740
Having more detailed storyboards saves time when finalizing your art, so it's not that big of an issue. Unless you're at a skill level where drawing without a sketch is effortless, case in which you'll be drawing twice to no benefit.

>>6835258
>Oku
"I'll do it myself and let just slide in a photograph of the background
>Oda
Shitty now slightly less shitty later
>Toriyama
"Might as well just leave inking being my only phase left"
>Araki
"I'm literally too good for this shit"

>>6835258
Somewhere between Araki and Oda. Rough sketches with text and blob figures to indicate what I want to put there.

>>6835560
>https://youtube.com/watch?si=ur6eCaV35fkARnHR&v=jrIogch5DBU
Listen to Sanderson's lectures. I think this was the one where he talked about outlining which helped me immensly with my writing.
I will write in my docs a series of story beats I want to see happen, then fill in the blanks between with as many sentences as I need to get an outline of events. If I have an outline I can reference it and use it to guide my storyboard. Without an outline I would be staring at the page (writen or drawn) without knowing what should come next. You have to know how the story goes before you try to make it imo.

>>6837014
You should reap up on Toriyama, the guy never planned further than a chapter in advance and did the whole thing in one go at the last second. Half the plot only happened because the fans wrote to him asking for stuff and he just went ok, Vegeta was never supposed to be a recurring character, but the fans liked him and begged not to kill him.
Toriyama is regarded as a genius for a reason, and it’s not for ripping off Journey to the West.

>>6837512
>the guy never planned further than a chapter in advance and did the whole thing in one go at the last second. Half the plot only happened because the fans wrote to him asking for stuff and he just went ok, Vegeta was never supposed to be a recurring character, but the fans liked him and begged not to kill him.
None of this contradicts what I'm saying. I'm saying he probably storyboards throughout the week, then blasts through finishing it in a couple of days. Meeting with his editor to go over the storyboard would really get in the way of blasting through it all in one go, no?

For comic commissions, how do you guys storyboard for the commissioner? When I do my own comics, my storyboards are very rough and very fast, but when I do it for a commissioner, they become more detailed (might as well be a sketch), which might not be optimal, How can I make sure they will understand what they are looking at without wasting too much time on storyboarding? Assuming the commissioner is a normal person, not a company.

>>6835740
>>6837520
Oh fuck, did not realize someone had the same issue.

>>6837518
Nigger, I just told you he did nothing and the whole thing at once, learn to fucking read. Just go and read about him instead of being retarded.

>>6837518
Torishima was meeting him at his house, he and Toriyama’s wife basically came up with DB. Torishima also said Toriyama was lazy as fuck.

I've been getting into Hayao Miyazaki's movies (starting with Spirited Away) and every movie has a storyboard with the dialogue of the film over it. Pic related. Apparently Miyazaki creates all the storyboards himself also

>>6835258
I am somewhat in between Toriyama and Oku. I just feel like the more I plan things out the easier it is for me. I also tend to forget a lot of things so the closer it is to the final product the easier it is for me.

>>6835740
Have you tried writing stuff out first maybe? Also, I I have pretty detailed thumbs, too. I just trace them when I am drawing.

>>6838709
Satoshi Kon's storyboards were insanely elaborate and really beautiful.
https://twitter.com/ani_obsessive/status/1221171833745133569

>>6838939
>Have you tried writing stuff out first
Yes. Doesn't help. He issue isn't that I don't know what I'm trying to depict, it's that I can't help but draw it more "correct" than it needs to be.

>>6839788
if you don't know what you're trying to depict, at least visually, then that's all the more reason to write it out first. You write a scene, then you re-read the scene and draw what plays in your mind as you read it.

>>6839857
I know what I'm trying to depict. Reading comprehension, bro.

>>6839876
So you know what you are trying to depict, but you don't know what you're trying to depict???

>>6839962
Hello?
>(t)he issue isn't that I don't know what I'm trying to depict
>isn't
>is not
What do you think I meant by this?

Fine, I'll reword it:
I write things out already, so that is not the problem. The problem is that I have trouble stopping myself from trying to draw things "correctly" when I really don't need to do so in the storyboards.

>>6839972
I had no idea what you were trying to say, because it wasn't clear. Thank you for clearing it up.

That being said, even if you are doing this...it shouldn't matter, because the point is that when you complete the thumbs you are supposed to move to the actual pages. So the question is are you even finishing the thumbnails so you can then move onto the comic pages and finalize those?

If not then what you really could be doing is just procrastinating which is why writing out the story FIRST was suggested. The other solution would be to just finish the thumbnails and to just ink them and be done with it. You can also just work on shorter comics in the meantime, such 3-4 panel comics so you can get used to finishing something.

In the meantime, you can work on practicing building up your visual library at a different time that is seperate from when you are working on storyboards.

>>6840192
Lol anon its not a problem that can be solved through any study or practice or anything. I've been doing this for a long time. It's purely a matter of getting lost in drawing instead of focusing on just getting the ideas down. It's so much easier to think "Okay I won't put any effort into these drawings they will just be super super loose and rough to get the idea down" than it is to stay focused on doing that.

>>6840197
So, are you finishing your thumbnails, at all? Like, if you can't do them super loose that is fine, but are you even finishing/completing them so you can then move onto drawing out the pages?

For example, Akira Toriyama's and Oku's thumbs are pretty detailed, but they are able to finish them. Are you saying that your thumbs are even more detailed than theirs? Do you have an example? I am curious, because my thumbs are pretty detailed, too. I plan out the designs, compositions, lighting, and everything on them at the final size, but I do finish them. I even do thumbs before I actually do the actual thumbs. Of course this ends up taking me time, but I do it to eliminate any thinking or whatever that might take away time from finishing up a page. It's not full proof, but I do end up finishing my thumbs, because that is what matters most at the end of the day.

So, again, are you FINISHING all of your thumbnails or are giving up once you have realized that you are gone too hard on them?

>>6840256
>So, are you finishing your thumbnails, at all? Like, if you can't do them super loose that is fine, but are you even finishing/completing them so you can then move onto drawing out the pages?
Yeah? I don't know why that's in question. I never said I had trouble finishing them, just that it takes more time than it should. Just that and nothing more.
>Are you saying that your thumbs are even more detailed than theirs?
Uh... no? Where did you get that idea, lol.
>Do you have an example?
Here's something I storyboarded yesterday.

Toriyama for sure. A good foundation saves me so much time later. Since I do comic art commissions, I send these to the writer. Once they approve, I just resize the sketch, make a few minor changes and can ink from there.
Even for personal work, if I get lazy and storyboard like Araki, it becomes almost unusable. I'm just wasting my time doing it that way.

>>6840266
>just that it takes more time than it should
But how much time should it take? Is there a standard out there somewhere? It takes however long you take.

What you posted looks fine. All you have to do is ink that and you are good. Don't even have to worry about 'pencils.'

You really are good and I think it looks great!

>>6837538
Asian "lazy" is still Western "workaholic that still manages to have dinner with his family once a week"

>>6840266
you're a god anon-sama

>>6840266
Mind sharing some more? Any in particular that have bit more dynamic panel comps.

>>6842552

can i have some tip on the storyboard(and how to practice them) i'm doing them fine but I fell like there missing something when I do the actual page ?

>>6838946
Always annoyed that this guy isn't as well known as Miyazki. I feel like if he got one or two more movies out before he croaked, he would have solidified that spot thoroughly, but as it stands now, he'll just be a cult favorite. Shame.

>>6840346
Have one of your commissioners requested a revision from you? I feel like it would suck a little bit if you have to redo some of the pages if they don't like.

>>6840266
Nice drawings. I think I get you, I imagine it would suck if your client didn't like a page, then you will have to redraw an entire page...

>>6845732
I've looked at this post over and over again trying to think of some advice to give or some obvious flaw or error (beyond simply "drawing skill" or whatever) but I've only come up blank.
All I can say is that feeling that there's something missing is from the end result, not the storyboards. The answer is really just to keep making stuff while comparing your results with your goal. To skilled comic authors, that is. Look at their work, pick it apart and apply those parts to your own work. And keep making stuff. I cannot stress that enough. I've been making comics for a decade or so now and only in the past year or two have I felt like my work is really coming together in a satisfyingly "finished" look. It might not take that long for you, or it might take longer. There's no way to tell.

>>6842451
that hasn’t been true since the 80s

>>6847481
In the field of comics it's just as true as ever. Don't use general data for special cases, though I don't fault you too much given the anon you're responding to was talking in blanket terms too.

>not doing the final draft in pencil because you suck at using dip pens.
ngmi.

>>6838709
>Apparently Miyazaki creates all the storyboards himself also
there's like three or four good documentaries on his process.He also doesn't write anything, like, in a script. Just draws. And I think for most of his films he doesn't even plan the ending ahead. Just goes with the flow lol.

His movies aren't impressive when you look at Nausicaa manga imo.

>>6838946
autistism. There's no point in overdoing it. Satoshi kon worked with Otomo on Akira, and Otomo also did intricate stobyboards.

>>6845997
not even close. Miyazaki is pure genius and made hit after hit with insane amount of soul. But Perfect blue is beyond a "cult" favorite. It's Kon's masterpiece and very respected.

Takehiko Inoue(vagabond)

>>6847491
the issue there is that “the field of comics” just means weeklies to you
the vast majority of “manga” isn’t published on a weekly schedule, but you will never see any stats outside of ultra popular weeklies presented as “average”, it’s bullshit numbers

>>6847507
>the issue there is that “the field of comics” just means weeklies to you
Wrong, I had monthly series in mind. They're still quite a lot of work, I'd guess ~50-60 hours of work a week if they want to manage to create a ~40 page chapter. Do I have scientific data to back this up? No, but if you consider rough 4-5 hours just to draw the finished page to be a reasonably accurate "average" estimation (and I do) then a weekly manga artist would be spending 80-100 hours a week and a month series 40-50 hours a week just drawing the manuscript. This is before factoring in storyboarding or any additional illustration required of them (like covers, color illustrations, character design material etc). Assistants may help this, but that's far too variable to really calculate and should be done on a case-by-case basis, as some mangaka employ a whole team while some work completely alone.
All this to say even a monthly series would be considered a highly demanding job in any country.
And for what it's worth, my own experience supports this, not that I expect you to believe me on that count.

Also the reply chain is talking about Toriyama so even if I was only talking about weeklies I'd be entirely correct to.

>>6847514
words have meanings, dragonball is not “the comic industry”, and your assumptions about average working hours do not concern me, when you have actual data on the two industries you can make statements about them

>>6847514
>>6847519
and to be clear, I’m not being dismissive or argumentative, I mean that literally: I have no interest in made up numbers or anecdotes, I’m not going to have a discussion about something with practically zero data on and let’s be honest, what little there is being sensationalised by extreme fanboyism

>>6847519
>words have meanings
Then why do you ignore them when convenient for you? Such as in assuming I am talking about weekly series only when I say "the field of comics", and not the field of comics.
>and your assumptions about average working hours do not concern me
Nor do yours concern me. This argument is stupid, your own assumptions about work hours are not anymore valid than mine.
>what little there is being sensationalised by extreme fanboyism
That may be so, but if you recall all I was doing initially was pointing out that you used data for all work productivity to form your argument about field that is well-known to be a statistical outlier. The data you're citing does not paint an accurate picture of the working habits of people who create manga, something that anybody who creates manga will readily tell you.

>>6847529
>Then why do you ignore them when convenient for you? Such as in assuming I am talking about weekly series only when I say "the field of comics", and not the field of comics
because I thought we were talking about actual working times, which are only available for weeklies, had I known we would be discussing headcanon, I wouldn’t have replied at all
>This argument is stupid, your own assumptions about work hours are not anymore valid than mine
that’s what I said
>when you have actual data on the two industries you can make statements about them
>well-known to be a statistical outlier
except not really because there are no statistics to back that up
you have no evidence that isn’t just a meme like people popularly claiming japanese people work 12 hours a day or whatever
yes, I’m sure sararimen who work 14 hours a day exist, just like mangaka working 14 hours a day exist, but the former is factually not representative of office working hours in japan, and there’s no reason to believe the latter is indicative of the manga industry
japanese work ethic is romanticised to an insane degree

>>6847532
>and there’s no reason to believe the latter is indicative of the manga industr
Unless you've actually tried making comics and can see firsthand where the belief comes from. No, I cannot prove it. I can say that it's more likely true than not.

>>6847535
I actually do make (shitty) comics, and no, I do see it. Why would I even open the thread otherwise? I am also a mechanic and trust me when I say I can do it much faster than a normalfag tinkering with his car.

>>6847538
*don’t see it

>>6845732
Do more studies of your favorite comic artists to see how what they do versus yourself. I think a lot of it just boils down to your compositions and paneling along with still not being that strong at drawing yet.

Keep practicing, you'll get there.

>>6847492
>there's like three or four good documentaries on his process.He also doesn't write anything, like, in a script. Just draws. And I think for most of his films he doesn't even plan the ending ahead. Just goes with the flow lol.

I am not a big of Miyazaki's work, but sometimes I do this and then think that I need to just write a script and then nothing every gets done, because I keep thinking about how much more I could be adding into it.

I'l try this out.

>>6850800
>>6850802
>>6850803
Don't know if these are yours but really good idea for boarding out comics right here.

Thanks for this.

Btw these look real nice

>>6850934
they're from Boku no Kokoro no Yabai Yatsu, just thought I'd share since I love storyboards

>>6835560
I feel like writing kills the rhythm I'm going so I sketch directly some ideas and do the one that fits better for the story.
I have clear objectives, I'm just having fun in between points.

Araki-chads, where are we?

>>6835258
These aren't actual storyboards, they're made by the mangaka to create a first rough draft and only needs as much information as needed for them to work with, only they need to understand what is the purpose.
Storyboards on the other hand need to convey clearly to other people you are working with what the intent and direction is.

>>6851093
I advocate a build a skeleton of the idea roughly, then flesh it out with details. And these visual notes to yourself are the first step. In this storyboard panel, I was trying to convey the raw emotions in play at this point of the story,and getting such ideas on paper is more important than getting a bad idea perfect.

>>6851093
>only they need to understand what is the purpose.
Them and their editor, you mean?
Unless we get another word to describe them (and ネーム is not a good fit in english for the obvious confusion it can cause), "storyboard" is clearly the closest word we have to describing this step in the process.

Are you supposed to use references when storyboarding

>>6851256
Rarely. Is it important to get something correct, such as if you're storyboarding a sequence that depends heavily on the space of a location? Then yeah duh draw from the ref. But generally reference comes when it's time to draw "correctly", not like a storyboard.

bumpin

>>6835258
somewhere between oda and oku. i do things really loose at first to get things placed but i always do a second pass of detail just so i can map things out right. ill forget if i don't do it all functionally well like araki, and i dont go full toriyama because my sketches are pretty messy when i know nobody is gonna see em. when i sketch to show somebody something, ill skew towards toriyama but its slower and ill get bored sometimes

>>6835258
it looks like my process but in reverse kek

Araki > Oda > Oku > Toriyama