/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

Like all schools, some are good and some aren't. Do your research

>>6779721
Most western ones are, yes.

>>6779721
Nigga you can't go in life doing things you like forever. Get a job and specialize for maximum income gainz or be an artist struggling to make ends meet where a minimum wage cuck has a far better chance of making it than you.

>>6779721
Artschoolfag here, if you already know some stuff like fundamentals, anatomy and you're not looking for teaching or smth like that, choose another career, artschool it's expensive and energy/creative draining place.

>>6779721
Who the fuck still goes to art school? Don't you guys have internet??

>>6779795
you only recommend art school for people who want to teach art?

>>6779721
>is art school really a scam?
The top schools are for networking. I went to a small state school, I had a good time, but couldn't honestly recommend it career-wise. I got a shitty graphic design job straight out of school, others I know didn't even get that much, and either became wagies or went back for nursing or whatever.
Practically speaking the life drawing classes are what you're looking for, and you could just audit a class. The classes I now appreciate most were the art history and criticism classes, which gave me a better perspective on art in general. But really, if you care about your money it's better sitting in a high interest savings account while you learn from books/online.

>>6779721
it's probably a scam unless it's somewhere like art center, take a look at the work of the students studying there, see if it's scribbles and period blood

>>6779843
if you are really passionate about knowing history, the movements, the techniques and how to teach them or feed your artistry with that insights, could be your thing.
Where I come from we don't have like serious art colleges that are that focused on commercial art (illustration, animation, etc) or at least not in my province so I studied what I have nearest from my actual possibilities.
Tdlr: you should be really sure what do you want to study about art, if like the techniques and the history (that can lead you to be a teacher or a fine artist) or you want to draw to apply to big studios or doing your on projects for sale or commissioning.

>>6779825
I going to that college only for the teacher degree for now, I kinda want to teach art and have an stable job (being an state worker here gives you plenty of pros in argensimian) but I'm also a fucking weeb that wants to make it doing vtuber models for big vtubers or corporations.
I'm kinda want to drop college because I'm tired mentally and I despite the process of writting essays for my own paintings for the artschool and i don'tgive that much importance to fine arts. But honestly my family could skinned me away if I leave college being so close to finish.

>want to actually learn something
>Still have to find someone outside of the academy to teach you because academy teachers just give gayass critiques

I should just become a mechanic so I can fix my car and also draw hot women

>>6780186
>Still have to find someone outside of the academy to teach you
The dirty (not so) secret is a lot of people complete a degree in art and still don't know how to draw. And I don't even blame the teachers. Regardless of who "teaches" you, learning to draw is 99% on you. It's a game of pure will and effort, takes years, and those who make it are those who either genuinely enjoy it or love the pain (the same way gym rats love the pain).

>>6779721
>is art school really a scam?
The good ones are only for the connections. Are you going in with the plan to make friends with your professor and everyone in class or do you think you're actually going to learn something? I assure you, the latter is a waste of time.

Drawing is skill based. It's not really something you can be "taught". They're not going to do the grinding for you. The knowlege has been freely avaliable for centuries, the fundementals have'nt magically changed. There's and endless amount of corses, books, videos, ect avilable to you. None of them can do the work for you. You can't learn your way out of a skill gap.
So yeah, paying $300k and expecting a differnt result, you're defintely going to feel scamed. And there may be an endless supply of resources and content, there's not and endless supply of knowledge. Fundementals are fundemental. There's nothing they're going to teach you that you have'nt heard already. There is no secret knowledge or shortcut.

>>6780266
Of course you have to put in effort yourself. Its just frustrating when teachers cant even help with it.

>>6779721
If it's free like in europe and has life drawings then yea it's definitely worth it
You'll usually get to meet some semi like-minded people and the critique will def help you improve, even if by very little
If it's really costly and/or doesn't have life drawings I just wouldn't bother

I don't think i would gain anything more than studying/grinding like i am now and i can do that for free, but i feel like getting a degree could help get a job in an art field

any anon have experience with this take?

>>6783770
i dont so i cant speak from experience, but i feel like art is one of those things where a degree doesnt really matter.

if you're a company looking for a good artist youll probably pick a highschool dropout who can make masterpieces vs a doctorate in fine arts or whatever degree that can only make mediocre art. granted it depends on the position (sadly people look for those useless papers when judging your character) but you can probably find a job comfortably without a degree (granted you have the skill)

>>6779721
>is art school really a scam
As a, successful self taught software engineer (real software, not web shit)
Who started a successful SaaS business after only reading one business book (The personal MBA)
And is now self learning art via reading books, I can confirm
All school is a, scam

>>6779721
>is art school really a scam?
I know an European guy that went to animation school, graduated, and when he found a job in the field thru networking, guess what?
He didn't know shit, no practical skills whatsover and most of what he learned was on the job instead of college.
He even said that animation principles only really clicked when he actually used them in a professional setting instead of learning in a class.
>TLDR
>Art school is a waste of time and money
John K also says that you're better off reading preston blair booklet than going to animation college but he's a controversial person so take his advice with a grain of salt, he coined the "bean mouth calarts" insult.

>>6784691
>successful self taught software engineer (real software, not web shit)
That's awesome, what books do you rec?
I'm interested in learning code as a hobby, specially Python, JS and C#
>Who started a successful SaaS business after only reading one business book (The personal MBA)
I think I saw that book on a torrent website.

art school can be great, if you have a clear goal that is. In my opinion you shouldn’t go to art school for fundementals, but when you’ve found your niche. But i think the biggest advantage art schools in general have, vs selftaught, is networking and internships.

>>6787323
this is something im interested in, but i dont know if the money needed to enter is even worth it. its a gamble ill meet like-minded people or find any worthwhile ventures.

>>6779721
Went to a top art school in the US (Art Center College of Design in Pasadena, do NOT go here unless you want unlimited pain.) Have friends that graduated at the top of their class with no job living with their parents. Plus 200k worth of debt. Take online courses if you must, but do not follow this path.

>>6779721
The last time I checked the average income of an art school grad was about the same as only having a high school diploma. If you are saddled with student loans and aren't making art then you are objectively worse off.

I went to SCAD '07-11 and after a couple years of hardship have been steady working as an illustrator since. But I remember graduating alongside students whose art looked like they never took a single art class in their lives, let alone paid an obscene amount for a formal education. Some of them knew they were fucked too and I still remember how awful I felt seeing that happen to someone.

Never forget that these institutions are aggressively for profit, even if they claim they aren't. You are their little cash cow. Professors take the path of least resistance when dealing with garbage students, which is to just shuffle them along instead of trying to beat talent into a blockhead.

My best advice is either 1. get a scholarship so you don't have to pay or 2. transfer in, take a year or two to make connections, learn some stuff, then drop out to work. Your real education begins on the job and the working world doesn't care if you have an art degree.

it's a massive scam full of slimy adults profiteering off of your enslavement to debt. it's also totally jewish and anti-White, not to mention feminist.
it's a place for gays, women, and browns. if you're White, male and straight you are the enemy. I wouldn't even try to date unless you want to be falsely accused of rape by a damaged woman with burnt out cigarettes tattooed on her fingers.
the whole school will also play into itself as an "art meme." you will be learning and leaning into art as in the sense of the stereotype. being weird, gay, feminist, having a silly mustache like picasso.
you'll notice that the only students with a future are the ones that personally are connected with the professors and or owners of the school. the entire place is a clique like a cult and you'd better not go against any of them on anything if you want to get into the club yourself at some point.
you will learn some and some classes and professors can be great. however, by the time you graduate you'll know and have the skills that are 1% of what it would take to actually be successful with art.
also colleges are more greedy than ever and you'll take what is a 5 year degree at this point as they force you to take more classes to milk you of more money.

is art school worth it? no.
yet if you'd asked me if the college experience is worth it I'd say yes.
just make sure you'll be able to get a good job once you graduate or you have daddy's millions paying for your entire education.

>>6788275
This happened at ACCD too, I saw some people graduate who drew like monkeys with sticks. Nobody is honest with them and tells them they suck either. And of course they're unemployable.

I also personally didn't improve until I dropped out and started grinding on my own. It really isn't worth it.

I am gonna use my GI bill and get paid for art school. I already have a bachelor's in cyber security, an MBA, and a fully remote job living like 15 minutes from a campus so idgaf. Even if I get nothing from it I at least bilk that money before the country collapses.

>1 year in art college
>Get better at drawing anatomy
>Drop out
>Grind like crazy
>Get in the industry anyway because they don't give two shits about a piece of paper and they just care about 2 things
>First and the most important by far is who you know in the industry
>Second is how good you are, if you're good enough then you're in because you're friends with "Jimmy the faggot" that love blowjobs from straight men

>>6779784
>some are good
lol.

>>6781320
What do you honestly expect your teachers to do? The fundamentals are very easy to understand, and they're all laid out in a few Loomis books. Now it's up to you to do studies, draw from life, study anatomy, analyze master work, and make art. It's 99% mileage. Critiques from teachers don't improve your work per se, they can only tell you what your weak points are and what you need to study.

>>6787266
Not him but SICP JS edition and Python by Example (book) should get you started. There's a Daily Programming thread you should checkout on /g/

>>6779721
that fucking bald

>>6788306
>Nobody is honest with them and tells them they suck either.
When I was traveling for a convention I ended up having a conversation with a RISD professor about this. I was pretty open about my skepticism towards art school after my experience, and he agreed with most of my points.

From his perspective, he had a lot of students who were resistant to any negative feedback, wouldn't listen to him, and barely put in the work. He learned quickly that the administration wouldn't have his back if he tried to flunk anyone. They wouldn't even have his back if he gave bad grades. Students' parents would call the administration to complain about the grades and he would have to answer for it. He saw it as a system that needed happy customers and took away his stick. His end takeaway was to just focus on the 1 or 2 students who clearly were there to learn and the other could get their marks and move on.

I didn't call him on it, but to me it still sounded like a cope. It's basically acknowledging that professors play favorites. Having gone through art school the faculty can be as temperamental and annoying as the students. You will not click with all of your teachers, no matter how strong your desire to learn is.

>>6789638
Yeah that tracks. Often what I saw too was mediocre students getting special attention bc the professor liked them for some other reason. Usually coomer old professors hitting on young girls that were their type. But sometimes just because the student was more outgoing or friendly. My school had a lot of foreigner students who could barely speak English, and many could draw amazingly well. However, in class they were overlooked due to being quieter or poor communication. In other words it's not all merit based either. Also sadly some people really just suck and draw bad no matter how hard they try. If professors were honest they would tell those students to drop out. They don't.

>>6789680
>Also sadly some people really just suck and draw bad no matter how hard they try.
Are you sure they're really trying? I haven't seen anybody that didn't improve if they actually practiced

>>6789680
Talented students can also form cliques with professors within a department. I think that’s also extremely unprofessional for faculty to do. Any student drawn into competition within the academic setting is getting the “big fish in a small pond” syndrome. No accolade you get in school matters. At all.

The only professors who I saw encourage it were losers boomers, envious that they never made it and desperate to feel like somebody.

Haha I haven’t thought about school in about ten years. I’m now remembering all the reasons it sucked.

this thread has blackpilled me. what the fuck do i instead now?

>>6779721
If you want to learn art, you are better off finding local classes/life drawing classes that are run by a person who you think is skilled. see watts atelier for an example of what i'm talking about, pretty much no one who has gone there has come out the otherside worse.

then you have art collage that seems to take people who are on the right track and make them fucking shit.

>>6790519
>Study online/PDFs
>Build a portfolio
>???
>Profit

>>6790519
if it's any consolation, some of the best artists I've ever seen are hobbyist artists. Eliza Ivanova, for one, is a 3d animator, but her sketches that she does for fun are leagues above most pros

Get a day job, and spend 2-3 hours a day drawing. Start freelancing, and when your freelance income overtakes your day job income, switch to art full time

>>6790133
This is true too. I remember the head of our entertainment art department had a huge clique of students following him around. I took one of his classes and he praised me highly in critique, and suddenly all these weirdo fans of his started waving to me in the halls and trying to talk to me. It was so unbelievably transparent. I had zero interest in befriending those people. I stuck with my close friends who I had genuine connections with and I don't regret that. Sad to see people sell their soul for a chance to do revision storyboarding or something stupid like that.

>>6790083
They may be improving but not fast enough. I've kept an eye on a few people like this on Instagram and they still suck years later. They post studies, drawings, etc, but they just suck. I hate to be that guy, but some people truly lack the talent to go pro.

There’s plenty of academies in Europe right now that actually teach drawing and painting. They focus entirely on the skill through the French academic method of the 19th century.

There’s at least 5 or 6 of these academies spread around Europe, it’s worth checking out if you actually want to be able to draw realistically and accurately.

>>6790519
open google
type there 1 word: JOB
sort jobs by location, required qualification, average payrate, probability of them not being replaced by AI
make a list of various jobs you would like to be doing
handpick two or three and try to find education which will cover these, the more universal the better
then pick a school which will give you such education, ideally for free or at least at very cheap (remember: expensive schools give you same diploma as the cheap ones)

most important factors of a job: you must not want to kill yourself while doing them AND the job must be in reasonable demand (coding or dentist YES, archeology or gender studies NO). the primary purpose of job is to avoid starvation. dont fall for the starving artist meme. it is not a meme, its a reality.

And in the meantime just study drawing in your free time, /BEG has shitton high quality of courses and books recommended >>6791116

>>6789179
>Not him but SICP JS edition and Python by Example (book) should get you started. There's a Daily Programming thread you should checkout on /g/
Thank you so much! I'm gonna check those out.

>>6789638
>>6789680
>Money is all that matters
>Cronies always take priority in real life
>Meritocracy is a lie fed to poorfags and losers

You guys are talking about art schools but all this stuff aplies to every school artistic or not and also a professional setting.
Directors in the animation industry tend to be whores that sucked a big shot's dick or his bestbro not the actually skilled professionals.
This shit is even worse in the video game industry.

>>6790994
What’s wrong with being a storyboard revisionist?

>>6790995
>I hate to be that guy, but some people truly lack the talent to go pro.
But that's because aptitude is a thing.
Not everyone can be the next Messi no matter how hard they practice simply because Messi is a genius that doesn't need to work as hard as Penaldo.
Even Penaldo have some talent even tho he's far more in the "hard work" side of the spectrum.

>>6791795
Propensities, aptitude, talent. Some people are more inclined for arts than others. It's hard to see someone who has no artistic visions or creative impulses try and mimick great artists in hopes they too will reach the genius of their obsessions. We like to say in art there is no competition, but that is not true. In order for there to be winners there must be losers, if you compare yourself to Kim Jung gi and you fail to exceed his level of mastery, you are the loser. There will be a person in the near future who surpasses Kim Jung gi... Will it be you? Chances are, it's not. If you compare yourself to yourself, then as long as you keep practicing you will be a winner. if you stop and lose your skill then youve lost to yourself. The competition is not gone because you stopped comparing yourself to others, it just changed perspective. The key is to have the self awareness to know what's possible for you, then if you are so inclined. Break those limitations, even if you fail. Failure is only the end of you stop there. Just be real with yourself and know that you might never make it where you're going, but at least you never gave up.

>>6790995
no one posts all their studies. How can you know how much they're actually drawing?

>>6791139
permabegs dont exist
>inb4 "cope"

>>6791122
Which are the considered the best?

>>6791778
>You guys are talking about art schools but all this stuff aplies to every school artistic
This is a false equivocation. Careers in the arts have some of the lowest starting salaries, unreal amounts make find work nightmare difficulty, and it's one of the most expensive educations. Art school stands apart from other higher education in how hard it will screw kids over.

>>6790519
I'm not saying don't do it. You have to go in eye wide open.

Here are some positives
>Time and space to experiment, fail, and develop style
>Chance to have guided introduction to many new mediums
>Networking
>Motivation of being around other artists overcoming similar hurdles
>An occasional great professor that will be immensely helpful

Pay for as little of it as possible and don't feel obligated to do all 4 years. And work as if your life depended on it because it does.

>>6791977
Hmm not sure.
Though I hear a lot of good things about the Florence Academy of Art and the Barcelona Academy of Art.
There’s more in Florence and a couple of smaller ones, they all teach the same methodology but the true wealth is in the knowledge of the teachers which of course depends on which academy you go to.

>>6791817
>Some people are more inclined for arts than others.
I feel like techbros are not inclined at all for the arts, they tend to be emotional retards, while their logical, rational level is really high.
They're too robotic for art.
>It's hard to see someone who has no artistic visions or creative impulses try and mimick great artists in hopes they too will reach the genius of their obsessions.
This shit is partially why AI art is a thing.

>>6791786
Basically the lowest of the low in animation. No job security, barely any impact on the final product, most draw pretty bad too. It's fine if you're just trying to move up to actual boarding though. Basically like a shit tier intern job where no one gives a crap about what you're producing.

>>6792480
I'm a techbro and I draw

>>6779825
I guess it's good for building a network specially.

>>6792770
Not if you are autistic

>>6792767
>I'm a techbro and I draw
You can draw all you want but you won't be good.
You need more than just art techniques to be a great artist, you need a soul and emotions.

Art school and any other school really are useless and their main purpose is to make money off young and stupid people.
If you actually wanna learn anything then you should either learn on the job or hire a mentor.

>>6779721
school is just an excuse so you dont have to work full time while pursuing ur art.
learning art on the side/on the weekends is a meme unless you can find a job with exceptionally good work life balance

>>6795462
>learn on the job
>"hey can i work here"
>"do you have a degree"
>"no"

>>6794174
This is not true. Scott Robertson is a tech bro. So is davinci. He may not make anything like Picasso or pollack, but hey I think that's probably a good thing these days

>>6795899
That's bullshit and you're not wokring in the industry if you think anyone give a shit about your diploma instead of your practical skills.

>>6795943
>Scott Robertson is a tech bro. So is davinci.
I hate both of those artists and their art is so sterile and mechanical that the point still stands.

>>6795968
>their art is so sterile and mechanical that the point still stands.
Not even, guy. You're such a a negative Nancy piece of shit. Vitruvian man is not sterile, it's got hints of mechanics as it's a breakdown of man itself. Mechanical doesn't mean sterile, moron, animals are mechanical, nature runs on mechanics of atoms, etc... You want to throw around buzzwords without actually delving to to the world of either artist. Scott Robertson is a mechanical master but his work is unique and full of life, even his sketches, while precise, have motion and feeling and uniqueness in them. Everything doesn't have to be an overcaticturized version of reality to still feel animated and lush.

>>6795966
i too can acquire any job with no prior experience or formal certified training

>>6788262
omg im about to go there

>>6788306
what major

>>6796502
If you're taking out significant loans to attend, don't even bother. If mommy and daddy are paying for everything do whatever you want.

>>6796503
Illustration in the design track. I dropped out due to a severe illness/disability I developed in 2020. Has taken me about three I years to recover and in that time I decided not to return.

>>6779721
I wouldn't go so far as to call it a scam but that really depends on what you're trying to get out of it. If it's learning how to draw and paint then there are much better ways, but if you want to network and meet people in the industry it'll give you some good opportunities.

Personally though, I don't think it's worth it. Even if you're lucky enough to live in a country that won't saddle you with insane student debt, it's being taught academically when realistically it's closer to a trade or a vocation. The lowest common denominator is going to be some useless shithead getting a fluff degree bankrolled by their parents and when you consider how taxing a serious art career is as well, it's not really surprising that a formal education in it is kind of useless.

If you can get into an atelier or find a mentorship you'll be much better off. Anything that will fill in the social aspect really.

>>6790519
Nearly everything taught in art school is available for free on archive.org if you look for it. Even if you end up having to shell out for books or online courses, it's peanuts compared to what you'd be spending on college.

Consider yourself lucky to have dodged a bullet and if you're really stuck organising your own study, there's an abundance of curriculums available to view online. Nicolaides' The Natural Way to Draw is broken down into a strict schedule of study and exercises if you want just one thing to start.

If you're interested in taking classes taught by real art school professors, CGMA is pretty good. A lot of the teachers there taught at my art school. It's a lot less money than attending art school too.

>>6788262
>Have friends that graduated at the top of their class with no job living with their parents. Plus 200k worth of debt
Is that most of your class, or just a few exceptions?

>>6797116
Most of my class especially after covid which essentially wiped the board for new graduates in the entertainment art field. Had a friend working a steady job at Disney Publishing, got laid off during covid, had to move back in with their parents. Another friend took seven years to get a proper job after graduation and was living with their parents in bumhick nowhere. They finally got a good job at Pepsi as a senior designer. Meanwhile I keep up with many of my former classmates on Instagram and they aren't doing too hot either. Many are "freelancing" which is often a fancy way of saying broke and living with their parents. Some are job hopping in animation but that industry is fucking fried right now. As for what I'm doing, I'm on the tail end of recovering from some serious health issues so I haven't been working. In any case no one I know is making mega millions from their degree. I can't recommend such an expensive degree for such little pay off. I'm happy I dropped out even though it was for reasons beyond my control, since I have no debt.

>>6795899
>>"do you have a degree"
Nobody ever asks to see an art degree. They care about 1. your references and 2. your portfolio. Only teaching jobs care about the diploma.
>>6796013
>formal certified training
What certification? What the fuck are you talking about?
Union jobs are the only thing that require credentials, but even that has nothing to do with a degree.

>>6797143
thanks for making me feel better about not having a job. I used to be into the Calarts scene, following who got in and who graduated, and many of them aren't working either after graudating

>>6797143
what about airi pan and her friends, how is she so successful? public speaking skills?

>>6798079
if you can't understand that anon's simple post about a difficult job market then you are the exact type of naive that art school burns.

>>6779721
>are art schools a scam
Yes
>am I really supposed to go crazy self-studying and following online courses in my tiny room in between a near full-time job?
I mean u dont have to
>I'm almost done with community college
Just finish college keep art as a hobby draw casually and when you get more passionate about it you can study more to improve

>>6798755
the numbers at the bottom of this infographic say it all. any anons in art school right now should feel ice water in their veins looking at those statistics. I'm not saying you have to drop out but you NEED to seriously plan for your future. life after school with debt can be so difficult.

>>6798745
nepo baby alert

>>6788643
i'd say some art teachers are good but finding tutoring is a better option, if you want to escape the NEET cave you're better off taking a figure drawing class and see if you can make some drawing friends, that way you can meet up and draw/paint from life with them.