/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>6679754
You actually draw when you are drawing from nothing.

>>6679754
why do you retards think only in black or white. Sucessful artists, specially the chinky ones that you want to emulate, do both.

>>6679754

i don't know if you can take it seriously but here is my advice

there're no correct route but use reference is better.

btw drawing like OPpicrel help you achieve observation skill,translate into your style. it's a good practice btw. i don't know how to call it but i'd call it "hard reference"
personally it's better to think what you want to draw instead of looking into reference then blatantly copying.

what difference is OPpicrel didn't use creativity brain for composition it will become long term problem if you rely too much on hard reference. example once you start to draw comic/manga you will find that you need to imagine your character scene and that's when hard reference can't do shit.

tldr ; 1. think about what you want to draw (character sitting in whatever angle) 2. scribble it 3. look into reference how things work( clothes,light etc)

also drawing from zero without using reference = bad because it won't help you learn anything and only professional can do that since they have the information and draw tons already. or when you think you know how things work then just forget about the reference

here's an study example 1. thinking about character floating in the water
2. scribble
3. looking for reference, color picker, light whatever.

i start doing something like this and find that it's better to think about composition on my own then search for reference instead of just looking for reference and draw it. but at very low /beg/ doing hard referece, copy is good.

>>6679754
doing both in combination.
the way i do it is: study, replicate what i learned, apply to piece. other times i just make a couple of sketches to test my ability and see what i need to solidify.

>>6679799
beautiful painting

When you're starting you have to use references, you don't know what looks good so drawing from imagination with zero reference will just make you cement bad habits.

>>6679754
Both. Sometime you need references for the stuff you want to do, but you also want to be able to draw what you have in mind

>>6679799
I thought using a reference is taboo and you should draw from nothing to prove how elite you are?

and here hating on A.I. for the same thing that can be done but faster

>>6680019
Everything in your post is wrong. Your points, your spacing, even your English. Please do the needful.

>>6680019
A blender digests food in indeed the same way a human does

>>6680019
Do we have to go through this old song and dance again?

whenever I use references, i feel like a jackass because I can't form a single original thought. I'm just copying copying copying. Anything I draw without reference is chris chan tier in looks and composition. I'm in the middlezone between being retarded and just self aware enough to realize how retarded I am.

>>6679754

Prompting

>>6679754
How do I even draw from imagination? Like how do I even start?

>>6680120
There are many paths. one good one is to draw from a reference. now put the reference and your drawing away and try draw it again. congrats, you are doing it. draw a lot and the more you recall, recombine and invent, grows. this is building your visual library, you'll pull from it as you draw new things.
try to truly understand the structure of the thing you want to draw.

>>6680019
good morning sir

everytime i study from reference i can't stop this sinking feeling in my stomach that i'll never get to the level to make something like the reference from imagination. i'd like to feel inspired everytime i see a good piece of art but instead i feel discouraged and want to puke because of how much time and practice went into it
my imagination is not the issue, it's the pure opposite of aphantasia, i can will anything into my mind's eye instantly and in full detail BUT my hands aren't worth anything. i broke both of my wrists a few years ago, maybe that fucked with my fine motor nerves. this world is a joke

>>6680120
>focus your mind to generate a scene
>take a mental snapshot of a specific angle of the scene
>project a grid upon this snapshot you have taken
>while it is fresh from your mind, project the outline of the objects in your scene and roughly indicate it into your medium(sketch)
>now release the strain of the mental snapshot, start using the crude marks you have made and follow the following cycle
> refine the shape of scene, make mistake, fix mistake
>once it is satisfactory and roughly equivalent to the original mental snapshot, you may stop and appreciate your beautiful art work

it's that easy

>>6680197
What I do is tulpamancy, and I just draw my tulpas like I'm drawing from life. it's that easy.

>>6680183
after a brief mental breakdown i realized that nothing is easy is worth it so im going to start practicing instead of complaining on /ic/ again
wrist bones aren;t hand muscles so that had nothing to do with it

>>6680209
gmi

>>6680203
is one of your tulpas in the room with us now?

>>6680183
>>6680209
Godspeed.

>>6680218
No, they are grounded at the moment. No outings until they apologize for being lewd.

>>6679754
draw from reference
fix mistakes
hide reference, re-draw using your sketch as reference but draw it as a character, pay attention to arcs and straights, short/medium/long, gesture pushing, etc.
take break
hide everything and redraw your final sketch from memory

You're supposed to fill gaps in your knowledge and build a mental library by using references, not just in studies but also your main body of work. The earlier you use reference the first few times you'll eventually not need reference for drawing that particular thing anymore. It's fucking idiotic to let yourself be put down by "not being able to draw every little thing from imagination". References are tools and knowledge, they're meant to make you be able to draw more. Your favorite artists can draw things from memory because you didn't see the hundreds of other times they've drawn something previously, from props to bodies to poses etc. You're literally robbing yourself of the power that references give you to be able to draw more /and/ get better doing it every time.

You can practice for all eternity, overthink yourself into a corner, stopping yourself from creating, or you can more easily learn by creating hundreds of things while referencing with resources you've consciously collected. That in itself is part of the process.

>>6680267
Nobody ever said that you shouldn't use references. But if you don't draw from imagination you will end up like proko.

In sketchbooks one develops images, and those are what you use to draw your bigger better more complicated works.

>>6679884
this seems like the best fit for anyone. you're building a visual library to draw from, but first you have to ref and memorize a lot of different objects, takes time but as you level up you'll ref less and less

>>6680209
holy based

>>6679754
It's just a phase.

>>6679754
copying a photo’s composition isn’t drawing from reference
design the image as you want it and then look up reference for INDIVIDUAL ELEMENTS you need it for
if you can’t draw a figure sitting in a chair without a photo of one, you can’t draw

>>6679754
you need both
you need to have references in your head, otherwise you wont be able to draw anything

>>6679799
>>6680127
how do you draw the "texture" from your references?
for example, while i was doing my fundies i was drawing a fruit but i had a hard time trying to put it on paper for me it's like i'm analyzing each of the scratches and dirt like an autist and trying to draw it and it ends up looking like an inconsistent shit

>>6680567
Squint or take off your glasses to see what is important, draw some texture that is obvious, but don't sweat details like that, imply texture, don't have to copy it all outright. When drawing a wrinkled face, don't make a railroad of the poor old fella.

>>6680616
i see
thanks, anon
but when you do a drawing from life, is it important to 1:1 a copy from your subject? or is it more essential just to put the obvious details?

>>6681454
>is it important to 1:1 a copy from your subject?
that's up to you. some artists strive to do that, but how many hours do you want to spend on one piece from life? actual 1:1 could take upwards of 100 hours.

>>6681526
oh
i am usually under the impression that 1:1 copies are the "objectives" of someone who is currently practicing life drawing, for me someone who's just new it feels frustrating as hell that when i notice a line doesn't match the same angle from the subject

>>6681538
There's a difference between 1:1 in terms of including all of the details (which you shouldn't strive for) vs 1:1 in terms of proportions and angles (which you will get better at the more you practise).

>>6681548
thanks, anon
so basically i should strive for the accuracy of the proportions but less on the overall details of the subject however, i should try to at least add the obvious textures.

WHAT IF i skip gesture part and copy someone else's pose, and then tweak it a bit and add what i need, how far will that get me

>>6681658
You can forget about being a mangaka or animator if you skip gesture

>>6679754
First you need to draw a lot of something so you can end up "drawing from nothing"


(Unless you want to be a permabeg for the next 3 years or more)

>>6681695
lmao retard
watch manben, nobody uses gesture
it’s a fucking meme that wasn’t even taught in bridgman’s and loomis’ time

There is absolutely no benefits in not using references. I don't what's with the mindset that drawing from imagination is the best. I too can draw from imaginations, and the poses I draw from imaginations are easier and faster to execute if I either look up reference for them or if I have in past worked with the pose and understand the dimensions and relations.

>>6683268
Exactly.
Referencing is a tool.
Tracing is a tool.
Copying is a tool.
Prompting is a tool.

>>6679758
This. It's retarded to think otherwise.

Here's how this works: Every pro alive uses references, but you can only test what you know by deviating from references. There's two extremes where you draw from imagination, have nothing concrete to go on, and it shows in your art and the other where you only draw from references, aren't exercising what you may have tried learning from your studies, and are drawing static, uninteresting work where you think you're drawing accurately but you've not tested yourself nor broke down the references adequately enough to actually know, you're just copying lumps.

The whole process is most complicated than "Doing Both". You should be working from references constantly in various ways. From breaking them down to their components, to mapping out the landmarks, to making anatomy tracings, to free drawing anatomy based on the poses from simplistic working from the major groups and then busting them into their smaller components.

>>6680183
Like this drawn "Without Reference" is a relatively boring shot and set up that I can guarantee you the artist has done similar poses and set ups hundreds of times. They're not magic. These people draw from a collective lifetime of experience. From the perspective set up, to the pose, to the details. There's thousands of hours of boring studying that goes behind this kind of shit.

People seem to forget that drawing is a process like anything else. You have to rehearse the fundamentals so you can build off learning routines and from experience and repetition you can use both knowledge of the absolute basics and what people do with them to create new things.

If you want to do this shit, you need to be studying but, most importantly, Actually Making Work. You can study your ass off but all you're getting good at is studying. Study to work. Every day, isolate time for studying, isolate time to make something from you intend to start and finish, and utilize what you're learning.

>>6683335
Even the band I listen while I work is a tool.

>>6680209
godspeed brother
its like going into the gym: first month you see almost no results and think that its all pointless, but after some time of hard work you look back and realise that you have improved quite a bit, and thats what really motivates you a lot

>>6680297
The drawing that almost destroyed all of proko

>>6683268
>There is absolutely no benefits in not using references
speed, less generic, ease of use, energy, etc etc
if you’re not good enough it’s a different matter, but imagine kjg having to find and use references for his meters long drawings in dynamic perspective, he could finish 5 drawings the regular way in the same time
relying on references too much is how you end up like proko

>>6679799
I think if people did a "scribble"/thumbnail to start they would be able to plan out and use references more appropriately. I use them all the time and it really helps like you said to plan our composition and such.

>>6681658
You will always be reliant on someone else's work so that kinda sucks. Not to mention it sounds extremely slow as opposed to just being able to draw poses. Frankly it sounds like a shortcut so you don't have to put in the work but with limited and probably worse results.

>>6683268
>the poses I draw from imaginations are easier and faster to execute if I either look up reference for them or if I have in past worked with the pose

I find the exact opposite. Looking for a photo reference is a last resort because of how long it takes. Drawing poses from imagination significantly faster.

>>6680220
I love this website

>>6680297
>>6683673
I don't understand this meme. Does proko not have the ability to imagine when he draws?

You should get gud with references first before you start dabbin in imagination drawings. The artists that are good with drawing from imagination have drawn for years so it's built into their muscle memory. It's the same as playing a guitar, you learn to use it by playing easy songs like The Beatles and work your way up the ladder until you feel comfortable to do it on your own.

Always use references if you want your drawings to look the best as possible. Every pro uses them, old school masters like DaVinci and Michelangelo would have live models in order to copy them onto the canvas, Norman Rockwell would also have models come in so he can photograph them for his drawings, and here's a video from Alex Ross, one of the best Marvel artists of all time explaining the use of references. If anyone tells you that uses references should be frowned upon or is cheating then it's guaranteed that they're not very good at drawing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJX7VDIN2v0&ab_channel=AlexRoss

>>6679754
The correct route is to do quick figure sketches and then taking photo references yourself that match your sketches.

Rather than just coping from someone elses photo.

>>6684065
That sounds completely like an ass backwards way of doing things. That's like telling someone to build furniture without reading the instructions then after they've fucked it up, to read the instructions afterwards instead of trying to do it right from the get go.

>>6684078
You should have the visual database and anatomical knowledge to do the rough sketch poses easily. Being able to create quick thumbnails to get the composition you want is key.

The photo references fill in the anatomy, color, and lighting your brain can't. Most professionals do it this way.

>>6684082
That requires you to be already good at drawing for years in the first place to do it that way and by doing it that way, you're just repeating what you already know and have done before inside your head and you wouldn't be learning or challenging yourself much. Doing it that way is how people get stuck being shitty for years because they're always doing the same shitty rough sketches that never go anywhere.

>>6684093
All great artists use reference. That's all there is to it. Whether it's from photos or from life.

>>6684098
Amen brother.

>>6684065
>>6684078
kek reminded me of the classic Simpsons grill.

>>6681658
>>6681695
>You can forget about being a mangaka or animator if you skip gesture
You sure about that? It seemed to have worked out well for Araki in JoJo.
https://youtu.be/DwXBVIAfKes
Also in this video, he literally has a Michelangelo book to use as a reference in his artpiece.
https://youtu.be/VoN4Pr2x3pg

>>6679754
drawing from nothing flexes your memory of reality, drawing from reference actually gets you that memory.
Primarily draw from ref, and if you want a challenge and to harden your fundamentals - draw from nothing

And why is “drawing from life” not the absolute first step?

>>6685639
Just joining figure drawing sessions as a total noob really helped me a lot.
It's also the environment and the people, but just focusing on drawing what you see and drawing from life is what helped me get the best foundation.

>>6679758
many of /ic/ posters are literal autists, so you can't expect them to think creatively

>>6679754
If you even need to ask, you're ngmi.

>>6683839
IIRC, that was suppose to be a kangaroo