/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>6573730
Always. Unless your motivation is money or fame, then do yourself a favor and pursue something else.

>>6573750
>Always.
Do you mean the pursuit for the sake of itself even if it'll never amount to anything, or the idea that I could learn to draw and make an appealing style all my own?

Depends on your goals; if you love drawing and you are really going to commit to it and draw every day for at least an hour from now on, then surely in a couple of years (or more) you'll be able to draw cool stuff
if your goal is to compete with other artists, most of them younger and more talented than you, with experience and resources, then you're fucked
the good thing about art is that, even though it IS important to learn the fundamentals, you can still create great stuff even if you're not a fucking master, you don't have to be that good
maybe at 30 you have more life experiences or maybe you like reading and you have a story to tell, something unique to contribute to the world, something that a 20-year-old zoomer who draws over-rendered waifus for money doesn't have
pic related, this guy "made it" when he was like forty-something, the reason? he had a story to tell and manga was just the best medium for him

>>6573754
Both. But ironically you will likely improve faster by not worrying about amounting to some arbitrary goal. Ideally you will never stop growing and appreciate art as the journey it is. And you may become rich and famous of it, but from my experience people pursuing art for extrinsic motivations become very miserable. Just take a look around this boards vent threads. Art is worth pursuing because it will open the world to you, let you experience everything anew and appreciate life in ways you never thought of. It will inspire you to improve, grow and learn and will give you the ability to express yourself and share that vision with the world.

>>6573730
aways, the brain works different from person to person, imagine if every person give up on doing things because there is someone young and more talented
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzr_dodDuzw

>>6573730
Whoever started and promotes the belief that there was ever a deadline to learning should be HANGED

There is no greater joy than polishing yourself to the best of your abilities
Perfertion is impossible but goddamn, what bliss it is to see how far you can go

>>6573730
stun those 35 year old hoes

>>6573730
what else is there to do? just pick it up and do it, stop wondering about how you'll be in 5 years or 10 years.

>>6573730
Why not, I too had started at 30. Drawing and working are the only two things I'm occupied with.

>>6573772
honestly I was thinking that learning how to draw would be therapeutic
>>6573841
I'm actually obsessed with the past and where I would've been 5 or 10 years ago, but you're still right.
>>6574033
pyw

>>6574033
It's hard when you have a three year old tho... I can think of any seriously accomplished self taught artist that had a kid (completely self taught no no friends of artists or shit)

>>6573730

You can draw at any age. You can improve at any age. 30 isn't even old.

>>6574083
I don't have many pictures saved on my phone but here's something I drew one month ago. Keep in mind that I have only been drawing for 1 year.
>>6574147
I don't have any kids tho.

>>6574224
Cool work, dude.
Feeling some nice inspiration rn.

>>6574237
Thanks, anon. Here's what I started with. Yea I couldn't draw for shit.

im 29 soon and just started again a couple days ago and have been happy with how things are going so far, granted I did draw some when I was a kid so i had somewhat of a head start

30 in less than a month anon. We in this together!

>tfw started at 18
Feels good

Why didn't you late-bloomers start drawing earlier in life? Did work/school keep you from drawing? I started drawing at 19 but at 14 I'd already realized my desire to make art. It's hard for me to imagine getting to 30 without figuring that out.

Yeah it's over
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmeFD893MgI

>>6573730
Of course, I started at 28 myself. It takes an insane amount of hours to get good, so keep that in mind and you'll be fine. Be patient with yourself and put your own enjoyment/fulfillment above anything else when it comes to art

>>6574296
i occasionally doodled in my teen/early adult years but didn't learn fundies, didn't take it seriously, and ultimately didn't get anywhere. i went to uni for tech because i thought that degree would be more useful in securing a career. i did have a career, but i didn't enjoy it as much as i thought. at almost 30 i realized i prefer art, now i have to basically start from scratch. my only cope is that i can deal with computers better than the average artist

>>6574296
I had no intrinsic interest in art

If you're Europoor and 22 years old or more, you'll never make it. Just find another hobby. Same if you're a manlet under 180cm or have a small dick, just not going to cut it anon. The sooner you realize that is the sooner you'll get to not waste your golden years.

Again, If you’re a day over 22 and you haven’t been practicing for 8 hours a day since you were teen then you may as well give up and resign yourself to becoming a wagie since your neuroplasticity will be exactly or close to 0 at that point.

>inb4 b-but age doesn't matter copeposts

>>6574317
This.

This is the cold hard truth.

>>6573730
What will you do when you'll be 40 year old? Start now or after 10 years you'll ask the same question. Until 40 year old you can become a good artist, learn to play an instrument, learn a few languages, read a ton of books and don't be the boomer who only watch Netflix, don't have any hobbies and don't want to live. 40 years is not much.

I started 2 years ago in my thirties and now people pay me to draw stuff I would draw anyways and my top fav artists following and interacting with my pics :) it feels nice

>>6574317
Based

>>6574317
Fyck europe then, suck my micropenis

>>6573730
Fuck age man, post your work dont be a nigger.
Most mangakas are old anyway

>>6573730
I started because I want to make a graphic novel. The bar is extremely low. Have you seen the comics that the Walking Dead and The Boys are based on, to name a few? Or One Punch Man? It's abysmal. Yet the stories draw people in.

Focus less on drawing, and more on storytelling. People want good stories to occupy their time. Trace the shit out of everything. Fake it, till you make it.

>>6573730
I started at ~25 and my art looked like bad Tumblr trash drawn by a 13 year old for a few years. 10 years later I'm pretty good, I can animate, I gift paintings etc.
I'm not some kind of master but I'm competent enough to feel good about my skills and to produce things of the quality I want. You will not have a career that's for sure.

>>6574317
+1

>>6574296
I did.
Then I stopped.
Then I started again.
Then I stopped.
etc.
Can you believe that I technically started drawing when I was 3 years old?

>>6574298
hey it's that guy bitter about getting kicked off of adult swim! surely he, speaking to a demographic most likely to have watched it as kids, has no bias!

>>6574298
I like Sam but he's overly negative and kind of a hypocrite in a lot of things.

>>6574411
>Focus less on drawing, and more on storytelling
what the fuck are you even talking about? we're probably in the period of human history where storytelling matters the absolute least. people don't give an absolute fuck about stories, they want instant dopamine hits like porn or something
nobody reads, nobody even watches things, they watch reaction reels so they get straight to the memes
how can you possibly tell anyone to "focus on storytelling" that's so fucking retarded it has to be malicious, goddamn you

>>6573730
You should learn to draw before you know how to walk
After that it's over

>>6573730
As long as you can make enough time to draw, you'll be fine. Ignore the crabs. They're bitter and want you to give up.

>>6574411
>Focus less on drawing, and more on storytelling.

Do both.

>People want good stories to occupy their time.

this is true.


>Trace the shit out of everything. Fake it, till you make it.

This is fucking horrible advice because the moment you get found out for tracing a bunch of shit, it's a wrap for your reputation.

>>6574872
I think people need to be warned about the difference between "getting good at drawing" and "making it in the art industry" since they're both very different things even in terms of how good you need to be at actual art
like there are plenty of people who "made it" who are fucking shit at art because they're very cognisant about trends and other gay marketing shit and they have zero issues acting like parasites. look at all the big vidya webcomics that boomed in the 2000s.

>>6574296
I used to doodle all the time, but I didn't learn any fundamentals and I failed out of applying for a visual arts high school so all my doodles got were (-1, don't draw on the worksheet, inappropriate) so I just stopped, and I was gaslit into stupid shit like "i'm gonna go work for the foreign service", failed out of that, jumped from odd job to odd job. Parents tried to make me get an accounting degree, found I'd an anxiety disorder that made this sort of work impossible, so now I'm just doing physical work at 33 until my body breaks down.

Essentially, figuring out how to beat down my ADHD and focus is all I have left before I just start more earnestly trying to kill myself. Videos like >>6574298 got me hitting pits of self-hatred and a desire to just be seen as acceptable to kill so someone can just come in and pop me in the head since I can't do it myself.

I don't want to draw to make famous accounts or make any money off of this shit. I want to able to draw the fantastical ideas I imagine of the shows I watch for comfort, so I have things to share. I just want to be able to draw the funny brain ideas and not be like NO NO ITS WRONG ITS WRONG JUST LIKE YOU

I don't know if I'm gonna win or I'm just going to kill myself anyway, but what does never trying help? I just, need to corral my head in enough to buy the stupid books, and learn the stupid things. Because the alternative is suicide. Doing nothing is just suicide but it takes longer, just building more regret to entomb your soul. I genuinely don't care if I NEVER improve my art, I am done living for the standards of some father or proxy-father, I'm gonna do art for my fanfictions of children's cartoons because it makes me happy, and I don't fucking care if that doesn't fit someone's retarded scope of what that person doing that, IS. Better permabeg than permastuck.

>>6574855
Vidya is telling a "story" and that's proving massively popular. Arguably, some of the most successful recent vidya have been story driven, with exceptional visuals and less about actual gameplay. The comment is not completely off base in my opinion.

>>6574990
99.9% of people don't play videogames with their brains turned on. this is why you have quest arrows on the ground. I appreciate your good faith but you don't seem to understand that people are completely braindead and do not even care to understand basic dialogue in the game they're playing

>>6574973
I hope you make it fren

>>6573730
No. Rope.

>>6574998
That's what you want to believe but you're not as special as you think

>>6574296
I did draw a bit when I was a kid but lack of discipline + internet connection = my creative side went into hibernation while I wasted hours browsing the web.

>>6574900
In other words, if you have a lot of professional contacts who are willing to humor you, you can still "make it in the art industry" no matter how old you are. Never worry about something like "skill" or "talent" when it comes to that.

>>6575120
Say that you're bi and have native american ancestry, you might get a comics deal not even joking

>>6575120
>Never worry about something like "skill" or "talent" when it comes to that.
yeah you should worry about things like being born rich
>>6575113
>you're not as special as you think
I'm too tired to post the full rant but I've watched normies play vidya and I was like
>dude what are you doing
>idk idk there's no arrow
>dude the NPC described the place where the quest takes place, it's obviously in that place over here
>idk idk there's no arrow HURRRRR
every single person I've seen play vidya skipped the dialogue or sorta read it by scrolling his eyes over it in typical functionally illiterate fashion
I'm not a genius but most people are literally fucking braindead

>>6575127
also this shit, if you're a straight white man you're fucked before you even start
you need to be at least gay and at least gendersomething

>>6574296
I doodled a bunch when I was a kid throughout school and such but lost motivation so I stopped, I think it might've came from laziness as well as being busy with schooling to get a "real" career. Now I'm 24 and started actively drawing every day to learn fundamental skills. I think what kicked me into finally picking up the pencil was that I didn't want to be on my deathbed regretting that I didn't pursue my interest in art and animation in my life.

>>6575128
Best selling and popular games are competitive multiplayer and sandbox games, your dipshit friends are your problem

>>6575183
>Best selling and popular games are competitive multiplayer and sandbox games
so games without a story lol

>>6574973
>I genuinely don't care if I NEVER improve my art, I am done living for the standards of some father or proxy-father, I'm gonna do art for my fanfictions of children's cartoons because it makes me happy, and I don't fucking care if that doesn't fit someone's retarded scope of what that person doing that, IS. Better permabeg than permastuck.
Honestly that's beautiful brother. I wish I could have that perspective on art. Sadly I already wasted most of my youth persuing art and I can't back down now. I wish I could've make art something I did for fun again. Specially with all the ai shit that will probably leave me without a job in less than ten years and completely kill human expression in less than fifty.
Sam Hyde can be stupidly negative and a contrarian sometimes. But he once gave some great advice that is "Outcome independence".Wich is something that he probably didn't invent but a great thing to think about none the less.
https://youtu.be/ugeIBYvIj68?t=57

I hope you can keep at it with your art journey and you'll make it friend.

>>6573730
If you have to ask then probably not.

>>6573730
Shut the fuck up its never too late, just draw

>>6575128
>friend watches another friend play MH
>uhhhhh what are you attacking why is there no health bar?
>a health bar isn't necessary you just hit it until it dies dude
>wtf how do you do that if you don't know how much health it has left?????
normies are really fucking braindead

>>6575363
lol it's almost fascinating isn't it

>>6574317
I'm European, started with 22 and make a living doing art since 27. Doomer talk.

>>6574296
I drew comics as a kid but gave up very early on because I thought I lacked talent.
Back then there were no resources like today. I wish I would've had access to the modern internet with 12, I'm sure I would've pursuit art sooner. During my teens I had a lot of other creative outlets like music, literature, 3D modelling, game dev - but while in college for a normies education I realized I wanted to do something more with my life, so I dropped out and worked min wage jobs while working on my portfolio on the side. Those first two years after dropping out were abysmal. Pogress took way longer than expected and I had a pretty unhealthy mindset about art that I adapted from /ic/ at the time. You have to understand that the board's mentality was very different back then and people would unironically grind 12h a day every day. I tried to brute force my way into making it and failed miserably.

>>6573730
is this a stealth 30 year old thread?

I'm also 30 and I just did my first oil painting today
I ditched photoshop because I'm too easily distracted and it's a lot to take in at once
I'll race you OP

>>6575486
>stealth

>>6574296
Fear, I didn't believe I could do it, let alone dedicate my life and resources to it.
I did something else and failed and now I'm starting too old.

>>6575198
I hate that guy. I hope he dies soon.
I'm 30 plus , I'm making it Ijust started , I'm a fucking genius what does this fat fucking loser know.
What a cunt.
If you want to demoralize anons I hope you get cancer for real.

>>6575776
I'm not the anon that posted the "Advice for 30 year old neet's" video. That's an opinion I don't fully share with Sam Hyde.
I was just saying that the way the other 30 year old anon talked about what he wanted to do with art reminded me of an actual really helpful advice Sam gave. That's about detaching yourself from the outcome and enjoying the work and process. So even if you're 30 and a "beg" the only thing that should really matter is that you're working hard and doing your best. Doing art specially in this horrible times of social media and reddit ai shit should be about personal growth and not money or likes.

Almost all artists do their best work in their early 30's, then they start to decline almost immediately. Artists have a short productive life, you basically only have 10 good years to put out the best work you can do.

>>6575966
Artists devolve, it's a bell curve and it's all downhill from here. There's no such thing as old masters, very rare exceptions.

>>6575966
>>6575983
That's what really scares me. Seeing people I knew ten or more years ago from old drawthreads that stagnated hard. People who show barely any appreciable improvement. What hope do I have of improving if they can't?

>>6573730

>>6574296
i was actually straight up sabotaged by my own mom. shes a fanatical mormon cultist and realized that i would be 'in' with 'artist', you know demonic SEX HAVERS so she bluntly refused to support me in anyway and outright bullied me for it on a few occasions. in middle school i was getting good enough at drawing that i was going to start with watercolor so i asked her to buy my watercolor paper. she said no because "i would just run out and shes need to buy more later and it would cost too much". that very same. fucking. month. she bought my brother brand new fucking FOUR WHEELERS. its actually hilariously ironic i that i ended up as a shut in loner that still lives with her while im in my 30s and even more hilarious that modern society and culture its exactly the opposite of what she would have wanted. yes im bitter.
/rant

>>6576148
You too, huh? Only in my case it's constant interruptions as I tell her what I'm doing. Isn't it fun being a prisoner of life and your abusive parent's imagination?

>>6573730
Impossible, the only way is that you have learned to draw as a fetus inside your mother's womb, otherwise you will fail.

Why does /ic have a hive brain? they repeat the failure of the ngmi as if they were bloody communists without independent thought.

>>6576152
can you go into more detail? and how the relationship is now? the really sad thing is my mom is actually straight up retarded. she just fights and fights and fights to have her way and i have NEVER seen her once get her way with anything. shes in her fucking 60s and is just now realizing that she never was, or will be a power player or anyone important.
>Isn't it fun being a prisoner of life and your abusive parent's imagination?
i wouldnt saw this applies to me. im doing certain undesirable situations on my own terms. (i actually have a 4 year degree for an in demand profession and could move out at any time). i just want her to realize what she fucked up at and make a big mockery of her in a "see, (points at my own art) THATS what could have been out there influencing everything, but you had to ruin it".

>>6576003
Maybe they don't care to improve. There's a shitload of artists who grind like mad and then stop studying altogether when they reach a certain point. You won't regress as long as you dedicate some time to revisiting the fundamentals

>>6573730
>>6573750
This is really the only good advice. If you draw, and you enjoy it then that's all you need. Go into it with the mentality of self improvement, always trying to out-do your last piece of art.

My only goals are drawing cute anime girl faces. I believe they are cute enough for me. I started in December 2022

>>6573730
If you have to ask this dumb question you will fail.
Fuck you op. Your question is insulting.
Give up. Now.
You are too stupid.

>>6576215
If you want my advice start with perspective. Seriously. Grinding loomis heads won't help if you don't understand perspective.

>>6573730
sure, it's not like you are trying to be a pro football player. Just put some time everyday and you will see results

>>6576287
Yeah when i started projecting lines it became apparent My drawing is all mistakes.

>>6573730
If you mean as a professional then:
Don't. Just don't.

>>6574328
Ask me how I know you're lying

>>6576338
Fuck off . Youre have a nigger mentality

Anons just draw, get good, promote, it really is that easy. Nobody cares avout your age.
Nobody gives a fuck . People dont give a fuck if you are dead even.

>>6575966
That's because they spend their late teens and early twenties with grinding and getting gud. If you start at 30 you probably will be in your late 40s till you get good, and you also have to keep in mind that those kids had no responsibilities and could completely concentrate on their art with 30 that's just not the case, your basically wasting the time where you should build a family and have a stable job away to become a mediocre artist (if you want to become a professional)

>>6575966
Beksinski got exponentially better over the years until he was murdered. He made his best work in his 50s, this is an incredibly stupid statement if you're actually talking about art.

>>6576344
Listen you retarded monkey, to become an actual a decent artist you have to invest a lot of time, two hours a day doesn't cut it. If you're in your 30s you just don't have the time some 17 year old kid has, that's the issue here

>>6576467
You're wrong nigger
Ngmi

>>6576468
>boomie is shamelessly coping and malding in front of me
It's retarded to try and deny reality get a real job you fucking retard and do art as an hobby

>>6576467
>you just don't have the time some 17 year old kid has
I actually have more time now than I did then.
What does that make me?

>>6576534
>What does that make me?
literally me
as a kid i waste my entire days with school, homework, and getting coerced by my friends into playing video games with them
as a wagie it wasn't much better, contriboote 8-10 hours a day for some corp and go home dead tired
but after i've suffered that for some time, quit and had a decent sum of money to sit on i basically have the entire day for myself now

>>6576534
person who woke up from 15 years of coma

>>6576534
>>6576538
>in your 30s
>no gf/wife or kids
>tries now to become a professional artist
Sounds like you guys have a mental breakdown

>>6576541
sounds like youre underaged fagget with his perfect imaginary future planned, cool for you, for most people it doesnt work out they just dont talk about it, here in anon board its different people are more honest, you'll realize that yourself and cringe at your old post some time in the future

>>6576541
>no gf/wife or kids
drawing is more fun than that

>>6576541
I spent my lifw going to college and I quit because it sucks ass
No wife no kids
Only art

>>6576541
Fuck you dickhead, you don't know shit.
Fucking pussy

>>6576552
>>6576572
No anon I'm not saying this to shit on you, I just know how much time and work it takes to actually get to a professional level this year I was finally able to completely finance myself with my art but the way till I reached that point was long and hard. I have drawn since I can think back, I remember weeks where I would draw from day till night, at 30 years old you're basically 10-15 years behind your peers with less energy and social acceptance for the path you're choosing, you're fucking your life over just so you can become a mediocre artist, I'm not saying this to shit on you it's just legit retarded

>>6574296
eh my guess is a lot of it has to do with just the way things were back when those people were 14-19. Most parents of that era beat creative careers out of their children's head starting at an early age in favor of "real" careers like doctors, lawyers, etc. Along with that there's just way more opportunity to make it now which has probably caused a lot of people to want to try. You don't have to be some super professional that went to a great school and got plenty of hookups to get high up into the industry to work on your dream project. You can just be a normal guy drawing in your free time with a few thousand followers who like your work and give you plenty of comissions. Someone who is 30 today was 14 in 2007. The internet and the art world were very different places back then even though that doesn't seem that far back.

>>6573730
wasn’t kim jung gi only 42 or so? and miura was 10 years older. that’s why i worry about starting late. but considering that logic, why do anything?

just fucking do it it's worth it even if you're ngmi. I'm 32 and started when I was 30. I'm still shit but it's turned into a daily therapy session that 1) I actually look forward to and 2) is cost of pen and paper alone

>>6574296
I think it's following a trend of the present age. There's a lot of things pulling people away from/distracting them from pursuing things that they might enjoy. Money (of course), vidya, social media, FOMO (I hate this term), dopamine traps etc.

ITT: people in their twenties doom about their insecurities instead of drawing
slit your wrists too, while youre at it,

>>6574296
Hands filtered me

>>6576637
You would get the same "therapy session" by just adopting a simple house cat and petting it, 30 is too old to start, all kids draw but not all adults draw, it's something you're meant to stop doing as you get older, now painting is a different situation.
This is like thinking you look better at 49 than you did at 26, pure delusion and cope.

>>6576685
I think totally funny boomers to draw especially if it has a meditative effect on them literally what is the harm of that?

>>6576689
*fine

>>6574147
My kids are my biggest obstacle to art ngl. I made amazing progress until my 2nd kid was born.

>>6576539
Not far from the truth. What are supremely unlucky people like me supposed to do?

>>6576541
>>no gf/wife or kids
Where do you live where the childfree movement hasn't been a plague on happy families?
>>6576579
>you're basically 10-15 years behind your peers
Only 15 instead of 25? What a relief, I thought I was fucked when I was 15 and my art teacher told me to my face I was too old compared to some of her talented pupils around my age she had been teaching for years at that point. That mindbroke me pretty hard.
>>6576654
>twenties
I miss those halcyon days. Feels like it was only a year ago.

>>6576345
>>6576541
>start a family
No, I don't think I will. I can't even stand pets, let alone other human beings.

Art is often a refuge for people who don't know what to do with their life because becoming an artist sounds like a typical "follow your dreams" story and it's nebulous enough goal that doodling with a tablet makes them feel like they're going somewhere. Fact is if you cared about art that much you would've done it already.

>>6573730
You're already looking for an excuse so no.

>>6574296
Drugs and mental illness.

But I look at the positive, my struggles and life experience reflect in my art.

>>6576685
>adopting a simple house cat and petting it
petting a cat involves no creativity and doesn't give a sense of accomplishment
>This is like thinking you look better at 49 than you did at 26, pure delusion and cope.
I get what you're trying to argue but women often find older men attractive, so pretty flat argument unless you were talking about women looking better at 49

>>6576886
>petting a cat involves no creativity and doesn't give a sense of accomplishment
just pet the cat

Op loser. Fuck this demoralizing thread.
All of you people suck. Keep drswing or die assholes.

>>6576780
this isn't necessarily true, at this point I can say that art is my vocation and I committed to it in my mid 20s. I only doodled before

>>6576780
Sometimes people just didn't discover their love for art until later.

>>6576689
It's fine if you're painting like Bob Ross, now drawing not the same.
Anyway just get a gaming card and do stable diffusion, not that much different from people using Poser and Daz 3D.

Bengus was an absolute master, now he's like a rookie artist trying to learn, it's a bell curve, if you start at the top of the bell curve then what do you actually expect to accomplish.

>>6576909
but like, how tho?

>>6577029
first close your hand into a fist, pull your arm back with your other arm, and then swing your arm at the cat.

>>6576685
I heard the same thing in my teens and twenties. How old are you, anon? Genuinely curious.

>>6576886
M8 drawing is like a mental illness, you would be doing since day one if you had the bug.
Are there cases of artists that started late and did well? Many actually gave up in their 20 and 30's.

I would suggest getting into those drawing classes and do art socially, if you're gonna start late.

I remember hearing somewhere that Jon Foster wasn't discovered until he was 40. I think he was working construction.

>>6577043
38, never heard anyone saying that when I was young.
When I look at my old art it was different, I lost some qualities that I wasn't able to recover even though I'm technically better today (for the time being until I start sliding the bell curve to the other end). I even tried getting the same tools, even the same old hardware and programs that I was using at the time... don't waste time, you'll miss it when it's gone.

>>6577060
>38, never heard anyone saying that when I was young.
Not much younger than you, but I heard those very things.

>>6577050
>you would be doing since day one if you had the bug.
What counts as doing?
>those drawing classes
If only I knew where those mysterious drawing classes were. Everyone else seems to. Surely Vilppu and others that show up in those video course threads didn't teach a void.

>>6577050
>Are there cases of artists that started late and did well? Many actually gave up in their 20 and 30's.
Van Gogh? anyway it's besides the point, it's not always about doing well and "making it"