/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>6529423
mangakas lose serialization for not meeting readership quotas all the time, and they have editors too.

>>6529425
Cope wokemerilard
Keep fapping to your fat starfire aberration

>>6529423
I have a bunch of friends in animation who went for animation instead of comics. Comics pay like shit in both the cape comics and indie comics sphere. One friend got a graphic novel deal and is getting a $30k advance for a ~200 page graphic novel and royalties that won't pay well since graphic novels barely sell in the West, and that same friend is only doing it as a passion project now that she's saved enough money from working in animation to "take off" a year to work on this. All of my other friends gets base $60k from entry level storyboard revisionist/background designer roles. This compounded with the fact that you have to shoehorn your comic idea into an age range (middle grade, YA, etc.) and fit into the current trend of what the market wants (nevermind the fact that your book won't come out until 2-4 years later when said trends may have shifted dramatically) make it hard for comic loving artists to want to pursue comics in the West. It's a damn shame.

>>6529429
I accept your concession

I suspect most people who complain about the markets are just looking for excuses for why the failed. There’s only one reason why you fail: your product is shit.

Learn to write stories, and you’ll never have a problem selling your work again.

>Would you say the reasoning in pic related is the biggest reason as to why everything has been in the same status quo of dogshit in the last 10+ years?
It's hilariously misguided and looks at manga industry through rose-tinted glasses, that's for sure. The
>one or two creators
bit is particularly hilarious considering the amount of assistants.

>>6529423
yes, absolutely. even in games and movies this is the case thanks to jews in hollywood and silicon valley. american executives are too afraid to take risks. they don't want to take a chance on something without some sort of analysis of the market that hints their investment would be worth it.

i don't know how japan manages things, but the artists and writers there seem to have some level of control over their own work. in america, your work will be passed around through several hands like the town whore and by the time it reaches your hands again, it's something you can barely recognize.

thankfully shit like patreon exists and more artists and writers are choosing to publish their work themselves instead of going through a chain of kikes. every up-coming comic artist in the west should be self-publishing their work.

>>6529425
yeah this, the OP isn't really correct. it sort of is but it's hardly the whole picture. there's factors like how easy it is to acquire manga in japan compared to comics in the US due to geography and shop distribution, the comic's code authority decimating what was once a vibrant and varied pulp medium, marvel and DC's stranglehold, the perception that comics are a "lowly" art only fit for TV pitches, etc

>>6529423
Imagine thinking that the problem with American comics is that they try to appeal to an overly broad audience and are too business oriented. Ha! Modern American comics are largely unreadable woke horseshit that appeals to nobody and has no commercial success at all. It's basically a dead industry.

>>6529479
>Imagine thinking that the problem with American comics is that they try to appeal to an overly broad audience and are too business oriented.
Isn't this exactly why Manga is succeeding? There's a manga for like every audience. You've got big genres like horror, romance, crime, superhero action (shonen) but then there's stuff like cooking, horse racing, gambling, fishing, etc

>>6529484
NTA but that's exactly it imo. there are many generic mangas that are basically their equivalent of formulaic capeshit with a new coat of paint, but the industry overall encompasses just about any interest, right? formulaic is tolerable if it's relevant to your subject matter interests.

american comics are only geared towards people who already read comics, and even then, increasingly only the die hard completionist collectors and sycophants. they don't really buy comics to read and enjoy them unless they are autistically obsessed. they buy them to own every issue.

I've enjoyed some manga but usually I find it hard to get into. it's usually too formulaic for me, but they at least they are all trying to tell you a story that you will enjoy and get invested into. american comics are trying to force wokefag shit down your throat and dictate what you're supposed to enjoy. I can't imagine being so arrogant that you can have a glut of billion dollar movie after billion dollar movie based on your comic book IPs, yet your comic book sales dwindle as everyone prefers nipslop because you can't get your shit together. shamefur, and jewish in the extreme.

>>6529423
for the last 10 years? Black Rock ESG
before that? shitty and dated distribution methods, pandering to fanboys they continue to bleed out, and never-ending stories with inconsistent characters

>>6529423
>Having creative control
There's loads of stories of Manga artists having to change up their stories because of the whims of the editors/publishers. I think the big key difference is Comics are known for being very particular franchises, and Manga can really be anything.
This person also misses that Manga Authors tend to have a lot of assistants, to the point that some don't do anything other than write (and may even have an assistant help with that too).

Indie comics/Graphic Novels telling unique stories do come up, but they seem like a gamble to publishers, meanwhile Manga can take that risk because they publish all their work combined in a magazine.
Readers aren't interested in your story? No big loss, just axe it and give the next guy a try - it's no problem as long as they have one or two big draws to get people to buy the magazine.

So I think the situation is a lot more complicated than what this person makes out, but an immediate fix would be the crash of DC and Marvel, which would essentially create a hole in the market that (hopefully) more creative companies and individuals would fill - the way things are going, that could be quite soon.

>>6529425
I guess it's just asian genes then.

>>6529423
For all his faults, Rob Liefeld was absolutely right about creator ownership.

>>6529423
they pump out too much of the same thing. The superhero bubble needs to die. Even though it's not doing as well as manga, french comics are having a little boost from broadening the genre

>>6529504
That seems to be a big difference between the two. Comics have that collectability mentality because older comics were rare (pretty sure a big war had to do with that) while manga is something you just read. I do like the manga magazine format as it allows a try before you buy method and a good advertisement for other works they might offer. If you end up liking something, you could just go buy the actual volume.

>>6529484
There are no niggers in anime.
Found the problem!

>>6529545
Yeah French BDs are an excellent model

>>6529423
I've been watching Naoki Urusawa's Manben and I also read this book on manga, which could basically be titled "How to Make a Hit Manga" by the creator of Jojo's Bizarre adventure, Hirohiko Araki.

I think for all the breadth and freedom manga has in approach to genre there is actually a fairly rigid structure to what becomes successful in Japan. If you read Araki's book and watch some Manben episode you'll see that mangas that on the surface are world's apart in subject matter end up falling into the same tropes of pacing, characterization, character types, story tropes etc. I'm sure most weebs are familiar with these formulas, and to many they may even be preferable and comfortable, but there are certain conventions and expectations you just have to contend with to be successful in that industry. Of course their industry is a million times more healthy and produces better results than Marvel/DC, which is why Viz and Kodansha outsell American comics on their own turf by a country mile. >>6529425 is correct that you are beholden to publishers and editors to some extent, unless you're a superstar. There are artists who get away with ignoring their editors but they better have the sales to back up their decision or they're out.

If you haven't checked it out, I think Manben is pretty much essential viewing if you're an artist, even if you aren't interested in manga or comics. I think I learned more from watching this than any guide, tutorial or book. https://www.naokiurasawa.com/

>>6529534
>So I think the situation is a lot more complicated than what this person makes out, but an immediate fix would be the crash of DC and Marvel, which would essentially create a hole in the market that (hopefully) more creative companies and individuals would fill - the way things are going, that could be quite soon.

Marvel/DC are pretty sidelined at this point. Viz sells 4x more than DC, Marvel sells worse than Dark Horse (which started as an independent) despite having the world's biggest movie franchises of all time. So I think we're at the point where these have become irrelevant and they're hardly bringing in new readers (in spite of the aforementioned dominance of superheroes in movies, you really have to wonder how they failed this hard to capitalize on it). If you're trying to make comics for the US market you are competing with the entire Japanese comcis industry (Viz, Kodansha) and Captain Underpants (Scholastic) lol.

https://www.diversetechgeek.com/2021-bookstore-graphic-novel-sales/

>>6529437
This. Manga sells because it caters to what it audiences want. American comics does everything, and I mean everything, to tell its audience off.

>>6529622
If marvel/dc stopped selling anything made before the year 2000, they’d probably drop completely from that list

>>6529630
That's another good point, some of the top sellers are still stuff from the 80s, Watchmen and Killing Joke of course, but also I imagine Frank Miller comics and Sandman still sell a ton.

>>6529423
>>6529425
>mangakas lose serialization for not meeting readership quotas all the time, and they have editors too.

In my opinion, the problem with mainstream western comics, and specifically capeshit, is that things are just a mess overall. I can pick up any manga and start reading the first chapter. That simply isn't possible with mainstream superhero comics and it sucks.

That's probably why capeshit is such an idealogical battle ground these days. If I'm not into woke stuff I cant just read X because the story will connect with Y woke comic at some point. People looking for diversity read Y comic, love it and try to get into past stuff only to find outdated shit and get mad about it. That sucks for everyone and creates this Schrodinger's industry that is full of "SJW" and "fascists" at the same time.

Indie comics are a way to solve this problem, but independent publishing simply can't support a comic on a shounen or shoujo scale.

>>6529423
Can't american and western industry in general promote their work with original animations or live action series? I only heard about Invincible because they did that animation. The Walking Dead is the same thing. Anime plays a big role in their industry and in most of cases the anime promotes a manga who would be cancelled.

>>6529638
That should be the case, but look at how spectacularly marvel have fucked up their big chance at total comic domination.
Manga's ass should be leaking Marvel cum, even in Japan, and yet marvel have managed to fuck up this golden opportunity in seemingly every conceivable way; from making their comics annoying to actually buy, to making the actual comics just pure shit, and everything in between.

And DC should have used this opportunity to overtake Marvel, but oops, they did all the exact same fucking things! How did such incompetent morons get hired to run these fucking companies?

Why do you care when AI comics can drop out of blue sky any day now?

>>6529655
Unfortunelly we live in the misinformation and deconstruction era. It's not even the destruction of values anymore because that's gonne already but the destruction of common sense. It doesn't matter how shit is the product, like dr cuck 2 multiverse of cuckness or that batcrap movie, people will consume that. And even if the final product is a failure, there will be no problem, whoever is behind the curtains will simply print money and save those companies from bankruptcy that will continue to produce garbage...

Oh yeah, and japan is slowly bending for their will. Darker times are coming.

>>6529681
A bit doomer pilled for me, I personally just see this as several shit fads congealing into one ultimately shit product. The shitty politics are beginning to wear out their welcome in things (or so people have been saying for the last 5 years), and supposedly Disney is noticing the superhero fatigue which is causing ever lowering profits.
Perhaps both these fads are done? Either that or you and I are probably going to have very similar conversations ten years from now.

Ah well, the mainstream always sucked anyway.

>>6529657
Yeah because there's been such great examples of AI comics like... um...

>>6529702
Agreed
Also just hide >6529657

He is probably trying to derail this thread

>>6529423
No.
There are options for independents and solo artists. Webtoons for example. Graphic novels are another. Hell just the web comic scene in general.

There’s options. The problem is the west just does not care about comics. A huge part of that is because of the stranglehold of marvel and dc on the entire market so everyone just identifies all comics as either Garfield or super hero trash.

The west just never normalized the variety of genres Japan did in manga. The idea of a romance comic in the west is laughable but it’s the norm in Japan

>>6529439
It depends on the publication. Weekly magazines are a rarity. Most are 1-6 month cycles giving them much more time to work on it so they don’t need assistants

>>6529423
Japan has doujinshi culture to force the publishers to stay competitive or lose to the amateurs

>>6529657
It lacks soul and no one would buy it anyway

>>6529945
There used to be a breadth of genres in American comics, which included a pretty large number of Romance titles, but for some reason the entire industry got bottlenecked. And don't say 'The West', when you mean the US comics industry. European comics have a much less constricted approach to genre than the US industry does.

>>6529440
Too many free agents maintaining ownership of their work these days. Time for a great reset.

>>6529439
this schedule doesn't look healthy at all. I get what people said about working with your passion, but still, you should socialize, exercising regularly, and at least, get 6 hours of sleep. otherwise, it'll ruin yourself, physically and mentally
then again, I dont know if this kind of schedule applies to all mangaka, or just the weekly manga magazine artist

>>6529423
>"It's the fact that you have a work being made by a one or two creators that have functionally absolute control over what they are making. Publications like Shounen Jump might offer a platform but that is not the same thing as having control over the work yourself."

Is this serious? Is this idiot YOU FUCKING SERIOUS?

You think that in Japan, of all fucking places, your editor and your editor's chief and your editor's chief's chief do not constantly object to every single minuscule detail the mangaka puts into their work to make sure they do not step out of the line? What did you smoke? What fucking planet are you from? To think that in Japan, of all the places again, where the working culture practically requires you to work yourself to the brink of death AT MINIMUM people are given creative freedom to express themselves without having a bunch half-senile old geezers that gained their positions purely by seniority and likely know fuckall of writing a manga are constantly there to tell you what the fuck to do? How fucking delusional are you? When figgin' Tite Kubo was a rookie and his Jump's editor when out of his way to get him to make a manga. His Editor's chief practically vomited at his work (this was not BLEACH yet) and slammed him in the face with Dragon Ball and told him to read that so that maybe he doesn't produce fucking garbage. Why? Because, by a fucking weird coincidence, that Old fuck chief editor was the editor for Dragon Ball before he got promoted to chief editor late Arkira Toriyama hismelf had to personally ask Kubo to come back.

You do not, let me repeat, YOU FUCKING DO NOT get to be freely creative in Japan without retarded executives breathing down your neck at every corner, if anything it is worse!

I swear I must in some parallel reality where people think Japan is the promised land or something.... someone please help me!

>>6529633
>Batman/Fortnite: Zero Point

>>6529439
>bit is particularly hilarious considering the amount of assistants.
They're called "assistants" because they don't have much creative input, they're just extra hands to help complete the gruntwork on time. It's still a factual statement that manga are written/directed/whatever by a single creator or a duo of creators + editorial input 99% of the time. I say this as someone who has worked on an american "manga" project with assistants, it's pretty much how OP's image describes, a bunch of conflicting narrative goals aimed mostly at capturing a mass audience than telling a story.

>>6530133
It's for weekly manga artists and many of them burn out or develop health problems.

scott pilgrim did fine

>>6529423
No, because these are only problems for those who wish to work on corporate-owned IP, for direct market comic publishers. None of this is how traditional book publishing works.
To go on a slight tangent, ignore anyone who says the primary reason for manga's success is business model, distribution, or pricing. Content is the primary reason. Why? Because manga piracy is multitudes larger than comics piracy, where pricing does not matter. Because manga still beats webcomics, where there are no editorial control. Because manga beats comics internationally, so matters of copyright enforcement, US publishing models, and formats are not factors.
Just give manga the credit it's due. Everything else is excuse-making.

>>6530273
Scott Pilgrim finished over a decade ago.

>>6529637
capeshit is only full of fascists if you're a mentally ill leftist. They made superman's son gay

>>6529622
I don't think that the average capeshit viewer has the inclination or even the ability to read a comic book. These individuals have the attention span of a gnat.

Western comics and Japanese manga industries are both on decline while webtoons are growing.

>>6529589

False

>>6529431
>$60k for entry level art jobs

>>6530332
But some people do think like this, the same way some people will say their childhood is ruined because unpopular x-men n. 24532 is gay in a spin off comic.

The problem is not that dumb people exist, the problem is that American comics have a hard time sectioning their audiences.

Superman's son is gay and that's a shitty choice. Not because oh god the gays are ruining my comics, but because this choice brings very little in terms of new readers while alienating old readers. Especially if an old fan keeps up with a current storyline and feel obligated to read a "my son is gay" spin-off because for some cursed reason all ongoing capeshit comics need to happen at the same time in the same universe.

It's like if Shounen Jump decided that women are an untapped market and now every story they publish needs to have a whole arc in shoujo style. It makes no sense.

Manga thrives because everything has its place. The genres are consistent. It is what it's written on the tin. This kind of consistency keeps old readers' loyalty while making it easier for newcomers to navigate their options.

>>6529479
>appeals to nobody
They appeal to Larry Fink and that's the only thing that matters in America and any industry that hopes to enter the "Global Standard".

>>6530144
Yeah it's better to not have any agency at all and have everything you create be stolen from you and be made into commie promoting shit that never ends.

>>6530424
>It's like if Shounen Jump decided that women are an untapped market and now every story they publish needs to have a whole arc in shoujo style. It makes no sense.

It's always driven me insane that the american market is so absurdly obsessed with their superhero comics. Why make a simple comic that would appeal to gay people or women who are into that shit, when you could use one of your superhero comics to do that?
Why make a horror comic, when you could just make that a batman comic?
Romance? Comedy? Sci-fi adventure? Eh, I'm sure there's a suitable superhero.

The stupid thing about this is it just shrinks the audience - I myself do not care for superhero comics, I'd read any type of comic, but superheroes are an immediate turn off, and I'm sure that's the same for many. Likewise, why would someone who got into superhero comics want it turned into some weird slice of life political commentary drama wankery? They're reading to see some heroic dudes punch villainous dudes.

ACTUALLY going into the shitty use of genres in American comics even further, why the fuck are we even tolerating superhero comics as they usually are?
Here's are question, who is the target audience of superhero comics currently? Because it certainly isn't who it was originally and who it remained as for like 50 years - KIDS!
When did we become so okay with superhero comics being an adult thing? Are superhero comics even really made for kids these days (that aren't adaptions of a cartoon series)? It's no wonder they don't have a growing audience when your core product, and really your only product, is something that seems like it's for fucking children, BUT ISN'T! You've lost both demographics!

>>6529622
It makes me glad seeing scholastic and Boom! on there, and stomping the "big" two's asses, because at least they understand getting kids into the medium means you possibly have a life long customer.

The more I think about it, the more I sincerely hate DC and Marvel.

>>6529484
American comics have always sucked because they only catered to one audience while pretending to be broad. Them "going woke" wasn't their downfall. When manga came to America and started taking over, capeshitters would bash them, completely ignoring the fact that manga was feeding the mainstream audiences completely overlooked by big publishers; even smaller American publishers weren't afraid to learn from the trend, either by flexing up their stories, or using manga to understand a hungry market and broaden themes among the age groups they cater to. For example, Archie isn't as big as Marvel or DC, but is probably the most adaptable print publisher unafraid to balance the traditional with experimentation.

DC and Marvel, instead of just learning and adjusting, went full woke without bothering to learn. Instead of evolving in the 90s and 00s, it's like they said 'oops' in the late teens and tried to jump onto what they thought people wanted like disconnected boomers by hiring the most retarded idiots known to man. It's why now they're both more invested in their films and animations. And even then, they're having to cut those back.

>>6530424
>Shounen magazine randomly decides it’s wants the lesbian market

>>6530690
Most ongoing series on Dengeki Daioh are stories about cute girls. Bloom into You is not that out of place.

>>6529423
tldr muh creativity
kek ameritards on suicide watch since the last century,

>>6530660
>It's always driven me insane that the american market is so absurdly obsessed with their superhero comics. Why make a simple comic that would appeal to gay people or women who are into that shit, when you could use one of your superhero comics to do that?
Why make a horror comic, when you could just make that a batman comic?
Romance? Comedy? Sci-fi adventure? Eh, I'm sure there's a suitable superhero.

I'm pretty sure that happens because we live in a world where corporate always chooses the safe bet of known characters instead of investing in completely new stuff. We have a dozen star wars tv shows, decades of superhero movies, reboot after reboot. It's not a comics-only phenomenon and it sucks.

>>6530342
I honestly believe that literacy is a bigger factor than we would like to consider. Reading is simply not part of the American culture. Especially now that there's easier and more stimulating media out there to consume I feel like we have been slowly killing the average person's reading habit.

I'm trying to get my nieces and nephews into manga, tailoring the stuff to their own tastes even, but I just cant not compete with tiktok and youtube.

Who is going to buy comics in 10, 20 years?

>>6530772
Are you 90yo?

>>6530773
I'm in my 20's and I work in education with kids aged between 4 to 12 years old. Excessive screen time is a very real problem that hinders interest in books/comics/sports. I see it every day.

Hell, we can see it here on this own board. What's the % of begs reading the recommended books? Something that would take a couple of days max. Most people here are at least in their 20's and have already fried their brains enough to think reading a couple of books is a waste of time.

The time to reach the people who will read comics for the next lifetime is now. Is the industry failing miserably? Absolutely. Is it the only problem coming our way? hahaha nope.

>>6530807
They will use AI to read for them or make funny videos out of books

>>6530762
But that's why it seems like such a bad decision, because it doesn't seem like a safe bet. They're going for a niche demographic within a niche demographic; People who like X genre AND superhero comics. It'd be a safer bet to make a straight forward horror or romance comic than to make a superhero themed version of these things.

>>6530772
>>6530807
Don't totally agree with you. I think we're probably reading more than ever because of the internet; you're reading my response right now! However the constant dopamine hits of the internet have defo fucked up attention spans, and I think books are going to be the worst hit by this. Comics on the other end should actually benefit from it, as they're very light simple reads by comparison, in fact it's one of the reasons I like reading comics so much.

If it is true that kids (and eventually adults) can't even maintain their attention for comics, then there's some dire times ahead I guess.

>>6530829
Dire times for who, humanity did fine with 99% of the population being illiterate

>>6530830
People weren't previously illiterate because their brains were so fried; they were illiterate because they didn't have the opportunity. These kids will have had every opportunity, yet are still illiterate, a much worse situation.

>>6529638
There is no real audience crossover between live action shit and comics. The MCU and DCU have proven this

>>6530840
The popularity of manga from anime proves that IS the case though, it's just Marvel and DC fucked up big time.

>>6530807
Honestly as a bookfag since I was a kid. It’s overrated. 99% of what I’ve read is complete garbage and is no more worth peoples time than Netflix

That said plenty of people read still. Just got a new book from my sister

Amazing phone screenshot, retarded nigger.

>>6530424
Shounen Jump already found the solution to that, they know that while younger boys are their official demographic they still are able to hook in the fujoshis who are the ones who keep the series afloat by spending $$$.

Marvel and DC keeps fucking up because they have a bunch of White men who just think that they know what anyone who isn't a White man wants, but they don't. Not knowing what your audience wants is a surefire way not to be able to sell to them. All they end up doing is alienating their actual audience.

>>6531651
>they have a bunch of White men who just think that they know what anyone who isn't a White man wants, but they don't.
I feel like you're right, but this racialised mindset here is also a major reason why people are hating their stuff, and a lot of media at that, as of late. They have writers who seem to be unable to write simple action stories, much less ones tackling complicated and sensitive issues such as race or whatever else.

And like everyone has pointed out before, black people love dragon ball z and it has nothing to do with race - just make a good story and people regardless of race will enjoy it.

>>6529423
I would disagree. I'm not super familiar with US comics, yet even I know that if you look beyond cape shit, you can find plenty of unique stories written by an individual or a small group of creators. Hell, even DC used to publish great stuff under their Vertigo brand which went beyond the super hero genre.
Biggest problem imo, was when the big publishers decided to market mainly to the collectors, increasing the price of the comics which made them unaffordable to the teens and pre teens which used to be their biggest consumers. Teens now read manga and won't touch a comic with a 10 foot pole. The thing I don't get is why the big publishers made this switch? Was it because of market saturation, srinking sales due to new types of media? Idk, maybe someone with more knowledge on the 90s comic book market can answer. Though I seriously doubt that most people here have read a single comic and yet feel like they have the expertise to comment on what's wrong with the industry.

USA has no shortage of creative people. But marketing your own original work on your own is really hard that only hardworking and people that will never give up get into anyone's radar.

Or you can just befriend people already inside Marvel, Image, and DC. Tha is also a known shortcut.

As for readers, good luck the people that still buy comics are 50 year old white men that buys every variant cover releases to add to their comic investment portfolio or fellow aspiring comic creators that still want to get into Comics as livelihood despite the demand for such jobs crashing since 1978.

>>6529423
Dont they have a graphic novel industry? Like American Gods? What happen to that?

>>6531710
I feel like nowadays with the internet, getting your ideas out there has never been easier

>>6529440
There's tons of derivative, made by committee manga as well though. I'd even wager that most manga coming out is shit and only the good stuff makes it out to us.

>>6531713
Yes and no. Easier to just publish your work and have others see it? Absolutely! Easier to stand out and have people actually look at your work? It's probably never been harder.

>>6531665
>black people love dragon ball z
Can you clarify if that's Black women or Black men or both? That's the problem, you can't.

Shounen Jump also does marketing in their book. They do character polls, have people vote on the titles, and etc. They also look at manga sales after releasing an anime out. All these things help editorial to shape their story so that it remains popular with readers. The guy who does My Hero Academia already said that he had to cut an arc short, because it was't popular with readers. Stories and series that aren't popular with readers get axed.

As far as I know DC and Marvel only metrics of what is selling is what was being bought by LCS through Diamond. The only other way would be letters that fans sent. I mean there could be marketing groups, but who knows if they are doing that. If a series isn't selling up to their standard it gets axed.

Also, with DBZ, aside from the cartoon lasting as long as it did...at the end of the day Akira Toriyama just wrote what was true to him and people like it despite not being familiar with the Japanese politics and ideology it contains. The problem is that the White American higher ups force White American creators to create something they aren't familiar with for people they aren't familiar with the work can end up being inauthentic. Then when they do hire POCs those POCs then have to create things MAINLY for White Americans, too, rather than just being true to themselves. Also, if there's not enough White Americans in the work then White Americans suddenly feel that they can't read/consume it as it's not for them which then affects sales.

Due to the cartoony/ambiguous nature of anime characters they are much easier for people, especially, White people to consume in general even if they go in knowing that it's a cartoon from Japan.

>>6529986
Yeah it's strange. Romance comics are the main reason DC managed to survive through the 60s yet today this idea would be laughable.

>>6531713
Getting your ideas out there means nothing when it’s a drop in an ocean of mediocre shovelware.

There needs to be some standard of quality and that inherently breeds favortism

>>6529423
>american comics industry
wut?
just put yer comics on net and live off of patroen
what, you're gona move to New York and intern for 5 years waiting for a chance while the nonbinary redhead becomes the editor and greenlights her dyke friend?
>capeshit
double lmao

>>6530830
Being illiterate in the middle ages and renaissance didn't mean you couldn't write and read your country's language, it meant you couldn't read Latin.

When we did have massive legit illiteracy was during the industrial revolution and it lead to the grossest accumulation of wealth and social stratification to date.

>>6531730
Toriyama was basically doing whatever the fuck he wanted until the end of the Namek saga when he didn't give a shit anymore but the editors wanted to keep him laying eggs.

That's way more freedom that you'll ever get in America where you don't just have to bend over to editors but to managers, marketers, human resources and even fucking community managers as well.

>>6531790
>That's way more freedom that you'll ever get in America where you don't just have to bend over to editors but to managers, marketers, human resources and even fucking community managers as well.
And yet despite all that, no one likes their comics anymore, and no one is buying, funny that.

Also quick tangent, but anyone else think While Dragon Ball (Z) is a great work overall, the way it handled character writing was shit? Like how did Yamcha, the cool rebel bandit looking for love, turn into a laughingstock background character who got cucked? Tien, Goku's rival? Nah just replace him with Piccolo, who we can then replace with Vegeta... And does anybody remember Launch? Toriyama (literally) didn't.
Dragon Ball started sucking its own cock when it came to the Saiyan shit, and all the other interesting characters from before, and even after, became irrelevant.

>>6529484
you have manga that hit an overarching topic, like lets say you just want to watch heros fight and save the day, there are a fuckload of flavors of that, but this is the general concept. the hero's journey has mass fucking appeal.

in the west, let me give you a character.

this is a black girl in school who more or less said fuck you ill do what I want to her teacher when she said she couldnt be iron man, she then more or less stole the tech when iron man died, invaded a country to start a war, and everyone kisses the sociopaths ass saying what a good hero she is.

she, by any normal persons eyes, sees this as a villan origin story, but the diversity 'get rid of the old, kill it if you have to' characters can never be evil or wrong.

another point, marvel will outsource coloring to asia, one of the comics they added a bulge to captain marvel because the way she was drawn could not be mistaken for a female, this is the shit they push on us.

look at squirrel girl, more or less a gag character who was cute/attractive in old iterations and kind of stupidly powerful, but one of the newer iterations (not sure if there is an even new one) made her a fat fucking retard in college with art that looks worse than cal arts, and dialogue that make me look like a writing savant.

I love old comics overarching stories, I have never liked their panel to panel dialogue/writing, but god fucking damn have they gone down hill hard. they write comics for people who like comic books, think big bang is the shit, and then have a severe disability so they can relate to characters, there is a fucking reason that ms marvel was only selling 2-3000 copies in a county of nearing 400 fucking million.

even the shitties manga that someone (fan not big publisher) translates is better than some of the best comics have to offer.

>>6529554
nah, comics were 5 cents and made for kids, they sold in the hundreds of thousands if not millions, but one surviving near 80 years in mint condition and being valued at 1-2 million dollars had everyone who thought 'what if I did that'

>>6530687
ok... this is hard to explain in 2000 so clif note time,

some artists more or less got to be superstars, and marvel and dc did not like that, so they made damn sure a second image comics couldn't happen. this effectively killed comics because if you are contracted to work on a character, are you bringing your A game or are you selling your B or C game and saving your A game for your own shit?

then the speculators market crashed, this collapsed comics because they didn't not want to pay for talent, so they hired cheap people, and those cheap people were from the portland indie scene, and they became people who gatekeep comics so only their friends get in.

they spiraled to the point that the artists live with 8 other roommates in bed bug infested apartments. because these talentless pieces of shit cant write something appealing, no one will buy their shit, and because no one buys their shit the big 2 wont higher better people.

this cycle is why we are here today, with comic pros antagonising what few fans remain with 'ill make them gay, trans, and disabled, just give me a fucking reason' mentality for old characters.

woke was the end result of the death spiral, but it wasnt the root cause, its just the most visible thing you can point to for why its shit.

>>6529423
Ehh not really all that accurate?

>first manga creators have editors that do control a lot and force changes to help sales. Creators barely have any control unless they are a huge success and are given some extra freedom as a result.
>It's WAAAAAYYYYY easier to make mass appeal media in Japan with the very homogenous society vs the US that has to juggle lots and lots and lots of very conflicting demographics.
>Media has to be pure vanilla simple to hold mass appeal to the major 10 or so demographics they want to sell to

>and the big one, American complain more. A whole lot more. Americans fucking love to complain, and make huge cases out of their personal complaints.
>Either a piece of media was offensive by a nasty joke, a gore scene, insulted a religion or belief, or could be easily misconstrued as offensive with enough imagination.
Media has to be tightly controlled by an army of editors and lawyers to ensure there is as little litigation as possible because Americans love to emotionally or ideologically crusade to destroy something they decided one afternoon was bad, instead of just not read/watch it.

>>6529655
nah, even if they were annoying to buy, you could easily get them online or from amazon, the problem is lets say you like iron man, well dude is dead and a black teenager who is a sociopath called iron heart took his place, you liked thor, well jane foster took his place and is bitching about unsolicited opinions on israel, how about spider man, you like spider man right, oh wait, he gave up his company and is a fucking looser on his 'ask me about my feminist agenda' girlfriends couch... and this is after one more day and one moment in time death arcs.

marvel more or less slit their fucking wrists when it comes to the comic side of things and have no where to go anymore now that they used up the good story lines and the wokeness infected the movies as well.

for fuck sake they had the mar vel story line they could have told, and they ass raped that so hard its never coming back.

>>6529702
> superhero fatigue
There is no fucking fatigue, the problem is the fucking stories.
look at she hulk, how the fucking fuck...
if I remember right in the comics she came about because to save her life bruce had to give her a transfusion or something
in the tv show he retarded her to be she hulk

This could have been an interesting show, but no, its cringe and bullshit at all turns.

there is no fatigue, its just the fact they more or less made the franchise bullshit and are replacing the hero's with the mSHEu

no one likes this shit, some die hard people who made marvel their personality like cat ladies did with beanie babies a number of years ago are all that keep going, but they will fuck off to the new culture spark whenever it hits, marvel will have spiderman, dc will have batman, but neither have any fucking idea how to really keep people entertained, its all 'lets entertain them then bait and switch for my woke political opinions'

>>6531737
>>6529986
because in america cartoons are for kids and fucking loosers to the masses.
comcics are always doomed by this fact.

lol

>>6531805
It's clear he didn't give a flying fuck at some point.

>>6532685
There's that and unlike say the MCU movies, I can't just pop open ironman and have a good read. (and for me that's 90% of the reason the MCU is now insufferable and I don't even watch the movies now)

When I read a manga, I get an entire self contained story that's in its own universe and finishes up neatly in a bow. Even one piece or dragon ball which are notoriously long, are still self contained stories. 90% of the manga I read are <100 chapters and they finish up and move on.

Meanwhile I look at comics and what do I see? If I want to read an ironman comic, well there's unironically 70 years of comics that pop up, with crossovers all the time, and if you want ironman well you gotta read all these avenger comics too, and all these side stories where he does plot relevant things that pop up in his main line so you better have read those too. also now there's a black chick or something.
And sure comicfags can say
>well actually i rebooted 15 times
but from exposure via youtube and being friends with comicfags, that means nothing to me because capeshit will always be this weird crosspollinated mess that you can't just enjoy on its own.

and then comicfags will pull the
>well actually there's a huge thriving sub-scene of smaller well written comics that aren't capeshit!
to which I ask, how the fuck would I know about any of them and why would I waste my time when I already know manga does it better? If i talk to a comicfag, its capeshit. if I open a comicfag youtube channel, its capeshit. if I open /co/ its capeshit and hornyposting for kim possible.

to everyone outside of 10 people, that's what comic books are

>>6529534
>loads of stories of Manga artists having to change up their stories because of the whims of the editors/publishers
Here is one.

>>6532888
Some of those were definite improvements, but damn, what have they got against animals? I think having teachers and the leaders be animals would make the world feel more mystical and magical.

>>6533033
They are usually just half senile old geezers who got their position purely by seniority. And they are just doing what they think will work in their experience which could be outdated by 10-30 years.

>>6532764
Its not even that, look at boku no hero for example of a capeshit manga, how many heros just kind of drop in and dont need an introduction?
this is how comics should have been done, you read the story for the character, even if they are in the same world you still can follow them with a single comic outside if events, then after the events, they should have made a recap for the character so people not into comics at the time or who dont want to read an event can get the jist of it.

honestly, comics fucked up in many ways, spiderman killed its run with one more day and the spit in the face of one moment in time for example, marvel again killed interest in themselves with civil war,

the spiderman shit was to make a soft reboot, which fuck whoever thought that was a good idea, then moment in tile was just rubbing salt in that decisions wound.

civil war was politically driven garbage with the authors overt messages crippling character decisions. the fact that there was no major story line of how the registration fucked people or protected people after it was done is kind of a big deal given this was the spark for one more day, and it ever only really reinforced why identities need to be hidden, but hidden identities was ultimately the 'bad guy side'

going to be real, comics being long serializations and hard to get into is the fucking least of their problems, if their stories were actually good people who evangelize them rather than sell used comics by paper weight.

comics should be able to be jumped into at the beginning of any story line and as long as you have a passing interest be able to be understood, but because of how fucking bad the writing is who in their right mind wants to?

>>6533098
The difference is Boku no hero is all one self contained story. If I like any of them I don’t need to read a separate 20 year long comic series. I just read Boku no hero.
Every single thing about every character is contained within this one series

>>6533122
what i'm saying is ideally comics should have been written with
comic number
story line number
an event label if it was an event.

lets say batman for simplicity sake, a small blurb on the back should tell you enough about the character to be able to jump in, if you start at the first in a story line, that's enough of a baseline to go, but the fact you may need to read batman 20, then bat man 22, and then superman 16 to get the linear story is fucking retarded. then other characters jumping into batman requiring you read them to follow is also retarded.

are there any mangakas who use 3D?

Since this is 4chan /ic/, one idea is to make a comic anthology like the japanese format with their manga anthology. Any person can make a comic in 4 page in a4 iso size 400dpi format, any theme and plot, fullycolor, tones or limited color, b&w, one off story or series as long as it is 4 pages. The person can put all his online handles links whatever within his 4 pages so if people like his shit. Comics, prose, anything can go as long as it is in the 4 pages. I deally there will be a Cover Art, general news about art scene page written by whoever compiles and collates the comic pages, the comic pages, the prose pages, letters section 4 pages of comments screenshots of comments from the 4chans then back cover art. The release of the compilation to /ic/ could be every 4th of the month. Over time if it is successful it can always distance itself from 4chan like all successful peojects. It's just to get people to create new stories following some sort of deadline.

>>6533203
It's honestly a nice idea, but suffers from the anonymity aspect of 4chan.
>Who would be the face of the project, so that we know the work isn't just being taken?
>Is money involved at all? that makes the leader of it that much more important, and problems with how to split the money or how to keep itself afloat
>Artists may be keen to submit work, but to attach themselves to a 4chan project can unfortunately cause some issues for them.
>etc

Not even to mention that it's unlikely to consistently get enough work to make a full magazine each month from just /ic/. I'd even say including all of 4chan would be hit or miss in that regard unless the magazine REALLY took off for some reason.

If a separate site was prepared, and advertised on other social media sites (as well as on here), I think it'd get rid of the "scary hacker 4chan" stigma allowing for the artists to reveal who they are more freely, and also bring in a greater quantity of work. Payment could be taken for the cost of running the site, and the labor of choosing what makes the cut, as well as the inevitable back and forths between the artist to fix things and inform them that their work was chosen.
There could be a poll on the site to see which works are particularly liked and payment given to those who do particularly well, as well to those who would could be turned into a series and continuously bring readers.

Anyway, enough of me writing a shitty business plan for a 4chan shitpost. It's a nice idea, I'd give it a go if it were tried and was around when I had free time, I'm just not sure how viable it would be as it is.
Maybe just have a constant open call for submissions and release whenever rather than once a month?

>>6533267
Sounds similar to what http://studygroupcomics.com/ used to be.

>>6533203
>>6533267
Another issue is copyright if anons are allowed to submit comics based on existing franchises. If the requirement is to be completely original, it'll bottleneck entries even more.

>>6536298
True, but if there's no money involved, and it's just run by some passionate anons, it should just be treated as fanwork and not a copyright concern.

Also not everything entered would have to be a series, I imagine the bulk of ideas people have are akin to oneshots.

I quite like the idea of an Anon run pulp magazine/zine. I'd give it a go.

>>6529423
Though not 100% accurate, I'd still agree with the sentiment. We have a living example of exactly this with Spawn; marvel and DC didn't want to back the story that Todd wanted to tell, for many reasons, and so Todd put on the infinity gauntlet and did it himself.
You want to sell a product, you go to a corporation, but if you want to publish YOUR art, you do it yourself.

>>6529439
Why tf would you ever schedule it like that? Is that a pre-planned schedule or after the fact? It makes no sense to go to bed so late, he’d have far more energy waking up at 3-4 in the morning instead

>>6529423
Hard disagree on manga being notably "free", editors hold significant sway and mangaka are constantly told to adjust their releases if last week’s reader quota was low. It’s the reason for many poorly placed fan service segments, and the over the place mood, going from serious to chibi instantly

>>6537687
That's likely after-the-fact. And it's like that because that's how they manage to pump out ~19 pages a week + promo images.

>>6536319
>if there's no money involved
There absolutely should not be any money involved for two reasons:
1. Nothing quite ruins passion like making it your job
2. 4chan-run projects already have a bad tendency towards drama and infighting. Adding money to that mix can only be like adding a lit match to a powder store.

>>6529423
No. Image lets you publish literally whatever you want.

>>6529425
There's a mangaka who talks about this in a book called "Manga Poverty" describing how awful it all is and the conditions of work. It's pretty fucking insane. On the other hand he claims that webcomics (this was several years ago) were on the rise and he was looking forward to artists freeing themselves from publishers by putting comics online. He also launched a platform similar to Webtoon but I have no idea what happened to it. You can probably reverse engineer the name of the author by the book's name and see what happened to this venture. In the end webcomics seem to be even lower common denominator than the shit that makes it on Jump so I'm not sure how any of this benefits the arts. It probably benefits creators I imagine.
>>6529431
Had a long talk with a rather relevant person in the comics sphere years and years ago and I understood that it's all dead. You just don't make comics anymore unless you luck out and go viral with memes or something like that. I posted about it here back then and everyone told me I was coping blah blah blah I'd like to know how many of those people have managed to publish a comic or a "manga"

>>6538613
>Nothing quite ruins passion like making it your job
I dunno, a day job that leaves you exhausted at the end of the day to work on something that a bunch of nigger children online will read for free or pirate without even saying thank you kills it much faster IMO

>>6540273
>In the end webcomics seem to be even lower common denominator than the shit that makes it on Jump
That seems to be more so because everyone, with the prospect of total freedom and owning their work, decided to crawl back to publishers on their on - even without the benefits an actual brick and mortar publisher would give you at that.

Say what you will about it, but I don't think we'll ever have something as boundary and medium breaking as Homestuck again. Who's going to a custom site for a web-comic these days, when they could go to webtoons and read a comic that's perfectly formatted for their phone? Even the simplest pages from Homestuck wouldn't work on Webtoons. The corporatised internet sucks, and it killed Scott McCloud's dream for web-comics!

>>6529423
manga is becoming american comics.
all shonen is the same
>main character is a dopey nerd who has nothing going for him
>main character stumbles upon or is born with latent busted power
>main character suddenly becomes the most important figure in the world and everyone else is a blubbering retard until main character shows up
just wait till woke shit invades anime (it already is)
the social engineers know that capeshit is the big thing right now, so they infected the source with fagshit. This then compels people to complain, which then the alphabet army gets to cry oppression, which then empowers them to fill comics with more gay shit.

reminder: it's not about speaking with your wallet, these companies get funny money from endless anonymous sources. It's always been about cutting the head off the snake physically.

>>6540292
>I don't think we'll ever have something as boundary and medium breaking as Homestuck again.
I don't like Homosuck but I agree with this. That was the beauty of the early internet, you could do some wild pioneering shit but people also had more enthusiasm and will to participate. If you made something as innovative as Homosuck you wouldn't get nearly as much engagement for it because the audience is largely passive consumers and on top of all they do not want to see where things are going, either something has immediate maximum grip which generally means the 1-2 things that work that well (booba and a couple high energy anime tropes) or they'll just ignore it. Now Homocuck did abuse this patience and became a meandering mess that stretched way too thin but ironically that did not put people off once it had already established itself. Everything now needs to be advertisement-tier designed for immediate attention and that genuinely hurts anything creative because the only shit that manages is porn and ultra-violence or political shit or memes that piggyback on something that's currently trending. It's all so fucking vapid I hate it

>>6540306
Jump has always been like this, since its inception. Authors have been making fun of it since the 60s for the samey stories that run in Jump. The breakouts are just that -- breakouts, and they inspire copycats and so on. You have tunnel vision for the current era and don't realize that this is how the magazine has been running for longer than your daddy's been alive.

>>6540306
>these companies get funny money from endless anonymous sources
I used to believe so but honestly, I don't know anymore. I think they just played the long game. Go to a random Discord and half the people will specify their pronouns. A whole ton of young people are on Discord. It's a huge demographic. It's not a small niche of people. Generally speaking zoomers are on board with this shit and at the very least are not offended with the in-your-face propaganda. They seem to be an extremely naive generation.

>>6540313
and yet, it's just like american capeshit. it sells better than any else.
doesnt matter if i have "tunnel vision", what i'm seeing is exactly the issue.
anime is as creatively bankrupt as american comics
>>6540314
the vapid nature of the internet they were raised with has made them a generation lacking the ability to give a shit about anything that takes longer than a day to accomplish.
those hard times made by weak men? they're going to get even worse.

>>6540321
>anime is as creatively bankrupt as american comics
If you only know Jump then you're not equipped to make that statement. Unlike american comics, manga isn't a duopoly. You're ranting about the tip of the iceberg here, anon.

>>6540327
>duopoly.
At what point is the American (or western if you prefer) comic market no longer a duopoly? Because currently the big two's sales are being smacked around by Boom! and Scholastic, while others are nipping at their heels >>6529622

Personally I hope that DC and Marvel go bust to make way for something that isn't the same repetitive stagnant pile of shit they're shoveling.

>>6540339
Yeah that's fair, but that anon is talking about woke shit invading cape comics. I assume he's not talking about the Scholastic side of things. But yes, point taken, american comics aren't really a duopoly anymore.

>>6531730
>Then when they do hire POCs those POCs then have to create things MAINLY for White Americans
I feel like they force white middle class dudes to LARP as anything else more often than that, it's where all those women heroes with extremely weird behavior come from. If burger companies actually gave a shit about diversifying (not just in identity, but things like style, setting, etc) beyond extremely surface level "zomg look at our QUEER POC TEAM, aren't you impressed by how kind we are?" we'd be getting more static shocks and less 'ghetto thor turns asgard into a magic hood'

Ironically the japanese industry has much more diversity, both characters and authors, how many famous comic book women authors can you even name?

>>6540327
>If you only know Jump then you're not equipped to make that statement
except i clearly am.
oh no! i don't know about your obscure publisher of a manga that has no real audience outside of japan and a niche american market?
no see im talking about the stuff that actually ahs an impact on the culture/market of japan and america

>>6540392
>except i clearly am.
How do you know you're not simply standing at the top of mount stupid?
>oh no! i don't know about your obscure publisher of a manga that has no real audience outside of japan and a niche american market?
I dunno man, stuff like Attack on Titan is pretty big and that's not Shueisha. Did you even know that? Neither was Full Metal Alchemist, or Berserk, or Vinland Saga etc, many of the most popular manga, not just of all time but right now, are not Shueisha.
>no see im talking about the stuff that actually ahs an impact on the culture/market of japan and america
Yes, which is why you don't seem to lack the knowledge about the subject, because you think everything that isn't obscure is a Shueisha property when that's objectively, demonstrably untrue. Therefore, you're either lying or ignorant.

>>6540314
>pronouns
To be fair this is usually part of the tos. It just takes 1 mentally ill admin to make it mandatory.

>>6529627
Because the audience full of morons who should be castigated at every possible opportunity.

>>6530350
I will now support your industry.

>>6531710
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Best_American_Comics

But why do basically all western comics revolve around superheroes? It's always a good guy or a vigilante who fights crime and villains. I don't remember a single comic that wasn't about some amazing guy who just fights injustice.
While manga has shit like scientists, alchemists, ninjas, soldiers, giant robots, adventurers, etc etc etc.

>>6540277
t.NGMI

>>6529986
Jew psychologist hack Frederick Wertham schized out and started seeing vaginas on the Human Torch, published a book of his insane delusions called Seduction of the Innocent, and was responsible for the Comics Code Authority, the thing that killed horror, romance and historical comics in America overnight and doomed us to the capeshit timeline.

>>6529970
*enacts international anti-loli law*
nothing personal, goyim-kun

>>6540737
It should be noted that he wasn't in support of how it was handled, he may have been delusional, but he wanted to protect kids, not censor comics.
It probably would have been smarter to just make a classification system akin to movies and games like we have now, though I'm not sure if the Comics Authority was before these were introduced.

>>6540499
This but unironically. Manga has the west beat in most regards but western capeshit or indie twitter comics are the only places I can find comics with black characters that don't look like minstrels.

>>6540507
Unironically the Tom cruise adaptation of this was probably the best

>>6540748
I’m pretty sure it wouldn’t have mattered. They wanted to sell numbers and restricting it from children was financial suicide.

>>6540757
That's the thing though, they ended up changing their works to appeal to kids more - so why didn't they just do that AND keep the stuff for more mature audiences? Why couldn't they do both?

And wasn't this self regulated? It seems like such a silly business decision, but when have American comics ever made smart business decisions?

>>6540763
They followed the CCA for the same reason video games abide by the ESRB. Either they wholeheartedly adopt the self-imposed censorship system or congress was going to start pushing their shit in. Maybe comics could have adopted a rating system but they either didn't think of that or it didn't have enough support and so they had the CCA instead.

>>6529423
>publications like shonen jump might offer a platform, but that's not the same thign as having creative control over the work itself.
I have no life for the leftoid comic scene these days but this retard have no idea what he's talking about.
Depending on the individual style of the editors your manga can get anywhere from 0 to A LOT of influence from the editor, that being said most of the changes they will recommend the mangaka to make is likely to be beneficial to the manga and not include some diversity politics tranny garbage.

>>6533203
>I deally there will be a Cover Art

damn, you just reminded me of those really old FHM magazine cover parodies done by /a/ board.

>>6533203
You should make a thread about the idea and see if others are interested and getting involved. It'd probably help if you know what positions you'd need help with and maybe have a couple of mock ups at the ready to give us an idea of what you're going for.
I think it's a good idea, could be a great community project and something for people to stick in their portfolios.

>>6540750
You're not looking hard enough, then.

>>6540277
Why don't I re-structure it a bit so you understand what I'm saying better:
>Nothing ruins passion quite like making it an obligation

>>6540987
goddamn i loved this manga. good taste.

>>6529423
>why are comics failing?
jews

I think us westerners should just face the facts and give up on comics entirely. If you can’t make it your life hood no matter how meager, you shouldn’t do it.

>>6543667
>f you can’t make it your life hood no matter how meager, you shouldn’t do it.
But some of us do manage to make it our livelihood, speaking as one such person.

>>6543667
>If you can’t make it your life hood no matter how meager, you shouldn’t do it.
Many Japanese comic creators and artists should just give up as well, as many don't make it. Why just westerners?

>>6541153
I understood what you said, but it's preferable to me to us art to make something that isn't 100% ideal rather than work as a warehouse slave. Both will exhaust you but at least you will get to exercise your creative skills. If you are busy with a day job your skills will just erode or stagnate.

American comics imo are fucked because they try too much shit at once. If you're gonna make a hero comic, then make it about heroes beating villains and nothing else.
If you want to make a story with LGBT themes or whatever the fuck, then make the entire thing about it instead of trying to pass it as a superhero comic when that's clearly not what the focus of the writer is.

Imagine the story of Maus being a constant B plot to a superhero comic, it suddenly turns to shit.

I just wish that western copyright laws and practices were as lenient as Japanese ones. It'd be nice to be able to just casually sell fan comics and merch without the constant risk of a Disney/Warner/whatever takedown at any second.

>>6544526
Anon western copyright laws are MORE lenient than japanese laws. There's no fair use clause whatsoever, all those fan works you're referring to ARE illegal breaches of copyright. They're just not pursued because 1. the companies recognize that it benefits them, 2. most of these companies, or rather the people in them, started out doing that stuff in the first place, and 3. it's simply not feasible to litigate against every single artist who draws fan work at this point. Furthermore, selling books is one thing but the people who are just selling straight up merch of properties they do not own ARE at risk of being taken down by the copyright holders at any second.

>>6544522
>nip action comics are full of side plots about love and romance; dipshit weebs eat it up like candy
>western action comics have side plots about love and romance; dipshit weebs start frothing at the mouth because muh gays

>>6544543
Hence why I said "and practices". Also, fair use exists in Japanese law, it just isn't a singular "fair use" bullet point, it's a number of specific use cases, many of which mirror parts of the western fair use template (education, disability, news etc.)

>>6529439
>bit is particularly hilarious considering the amount of assistants.
the assistants aren't writing the story.
Most manga have a creative structure like this

>mangaka
the dude who writes the story, makes the draft and the final drawings of the characters.

>writer
Optional, some manga have an artist that does only the art for the manga, and a writer that writes the story. Some have only an artist that writes and makes the art.

>editor
every mangaka is assigned an editor, the role of the editor is to proofread the manga and make fixes/give advices, and naturally makes the interests of the pubblisher too, they might leave freedom and actually improve the series, or force the mangaka to draw more tits and ruin the series.

>assistants
the assistant role is mainly to do "secondary jobs" in the manga, usually making backgrounds that the mangaka want, fill blacks, apply screentones and sometimes lineart.
A mangaka could have 1 to 6 assistants, it depends how rich he is, sometimes don't have assistants at all.

The structure is similiar of that of making a book, (writer, editor, cover/layout artist.)

Instead for comics like dc or marvel you have
>writer
can be one or can be a full room, someone writes the main line and another dialogues
>penciller
the draftsman that makes the sketches
>inker
the one that ink the sketches, could be less talented than the sketcher and downgrade them
>colorist
the ones who color the sketches, all the art positions could be one person or multiple people, more often than not the cover is drawn by a completly different artist.
>editor

The structure is similiar of that of making a movie or tv show (a lot of professionals involved in the same role and divide it).

Manga to this day is more akin to a one man show that has 80%+ controll to what is making. Comics are akin to a commitee work when every part has like 20% controll on the final work

>>6544567
>>>/co/