/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

to /beg/ trap

because the whole point is to draw interesting characters not copying proportions onto the anatomical pose

also I am loving brent eviston's figure course so far. it's so comfy and has practice reels built in.

another /beg/ filtered

>>6230264
>because the whole point is to draw interesting characters not copying proportions onto the anatomical pose
Point of what?

The point is to learn how to draw the figure. IE- a human character.

Can gesture be a big part of that? Sure. Is it worth learning? Sure. Should it be the first thing beginners learn about figure drawing? Fuck no.

Again, you don't learn to draw 3D shapes by drawing them expressively at first, so why should the same apply for something as complex as the figure? Even Eviston in his course tells you to try and keep everything in proportion and accurate when gesture drawing... but we haven't learned how to yet! How can beginners to figure drawing be expected to keep the gesture even close to correct proportion when they haven't learned how to yet?

I'm inclined to believe none of these figure drawing instructors understand the beginner mindset at all.

>>6230280
A figure drawing is an approximate human shape that focuses more on form rather than anatomy, if you can't even draw that and you need to study anatomy beforehand, you are better off giving up already
Now pyw

>>6230253
>Loomis
Loomis teaches the construction of the figure first, what are you talking about? In fact his entire first book could be seen as a simple introduction to constructing drawings from simple shapes, before his second book goes more in depth with the figure's realistic construction and proportions and anatomy.

>>6230280
Here is the secret to the wish washy vilppu/michael hampton gesture method so you can stop being frustrated and blaming the teacher:

Imagine the old Bruce Lee movies about cup and water. If you’re a zoomzoomzoom then here is a refresher: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cJMwBwFj5nQ

Now you have a regular coffee cup of flow and you throw the flow out of the cup and it’s in the air. It becomes >>>>formless<<<<< and another guy is standing, ready to catch the water that’s in the air with another cup. He holds out his cup and captures the water. Water is in cup except now water is in cup of a different form. Water becomes the cup. flow is inside the cup, but as a consequence, some of the lines ironically also share the exact same contour as the cup because it became that form..but it’s still flowing inside.

Now that’s only if the cup is standing straight up. What happens when the cup is tilted forward enough for the flow to spill out? (You) panic, yes? So you need to pick up your bounty quicker picker upper and absorb the flow to squish and squeeze it back into a form. Vilppu has many ideas about this, such as the box, spherical form, and cylinder.

Flow is generous when it is upright and keeps the form of the cup. But the moment the cup begins to drip and flow escapes you need to save it with other >tooools<. There are no >rules< to which >tools< you use to save the >flow<.

I hope that helps you or any faggot here and shaves off years of frustration.

>>6230311
Thank you for effectively admitting you're a complete and utter idiot.

>>6230317
This is embarrassingly terrible pseudoscience.

gesture, construcion, anatomy, etc...are begtrap
learn to copy 1:1 aka observation skills then learn the fundies, otherwise all the art theory is a waste of time.

>>6230323
This is why you can’t make it.

>>6230328
Nah, you're just an idiot. Stupid people like you love to larp as a source of wisdom, but you're just boring trash.

>>6230330
I’m just trying to help.

>>6230332
Then stop insinuating people "won't make it" if they don't follow your pseudoscience.

>>6230337
it’s not pseudoscience, baka.

art teachers dont remember being begs, but remember gesture being important for some reason so there you have it.

>>6230253
Your first one thousand figures are gonna suck, whether you study gesture or not. Beginners are so blind they can't even see half of their mistakes. Gesture are a good introduction because it lets you practice quickly, with a purpose, and gets you started on simplify the complexities of the human figure.

>>6230280
>keep everything in proportion and accurate when gesture drawing... but we haven't learned how to yet
damn not even brent eviston is enough handholding for you? he tells you what he is stressing and why and repeats everything like 20 times.

this board is so weird. it's like you want to just draw boxes for 100 hours so it's not scary

https://cubebrush.co/mb/products/0dpzeg/art-school
>complete beginners with no experience
>Lesson 1 figure drawing
>complete BEGINNERS with no experience
>never teaches accuracy drawing

https://www.cgmasteracademy.com/courses/128-absolute-beginners/
>Absolute Beginners
>Week 2 | Basic Shapes and Proportions
>never talks about proportions ever again.

https://medsmap.mykajabi.com/landing-page
>digital painting
>aannounce his course on youtube telling that all you need to take his course is basic understand of photoshop.
>never teaches accuracy drawing
>Lesson 4 - Building the Skull

:/

Krenz makes his students copy cartoons/anime for 2-3 months before they can take his courses.
accuracy is everything
https://streamable.com/zc746c
ex:
https://youtu.be/iK5Qn_Iwv9A

>>6230253
they weren't expecting you to be so dense to think you'd need to master something before learning the next thing

Better than Erik Olson's approach.. This is the power of his gestures..

>>6230327
observation skills are necessary but not copying at an early stage. if you can't "see in 3d" or "feel the form" then you're not really copying well

>>6230426
these aren't made to explain gesture, these are maid to explain how figure construction works in a gridded perspective

>>6230426
Can you draw a figure in perspective like him?
>>6230418
Where are your accuracy drawings?

>>6230427
>if you can't "see in 3d" or "feel the form" then you're not really copying well
begtrap
watch min 4:51

>>6230253
fuck an instructor. i started off drawing bones, and still do as per a warm up.

>>6230264
>the point
people draw for different reasons. not everyone is interested in drawing tranime im afraid

>>6230422
/thread

>>6230418
Not watching your garbage, moronic shill.

>>6230429
He literally says in the video 'we are going to show how gesture is the most important thing' and shows that image

>>6230430
I have more
https://i.imgur.com/An9kHTB.jpeg
750 so far

>>6230439
idc, permabeg

>>6230446
you're supposed to do these exercises and use the process on things you want to draw

>>6230446
I commend you for showing proof of purchase, but I still don't buy the Krenz hype.

>>6230451
if you want to improve accuracy exclusively, picrel is the fastest to improve.
The downside is that you can easily burn out yourself.
>things you want to draw
yeah trying to 2 things at the same time...well if want to have fun,improve and dont burn out yep do it, however the downsite is that you wont improve that fast.

>>6230477
might sound like pseudo science but our brains have a habit of doing things "the easy way"
chances are you have found an easy pattern of process while doing these without realizing that. you're "grinding".
and being able to snap yourself out of that trance would come with jumping around different subjects, things you need to recalibrate your mind to understand.
Getting out of your comfort zone is the key to art improvement
You can go back to your comfort lines, but i implore you to try to jump around harder subjects

and honestly as copies of lines these aren't even that good. look at them, they're sloppy

>>6230446
>イラストAC17
>nip
I would kill myself(probably most westerns) if i had to do that boring shit.
>Asian genes
There we go, thats why asians are better than us...

>>6230446
holy shit.
asg just invented their own drawabox.

I don't.think gesture drawing is a trap, however, I think grinding 30s gestures everyday without any understanding of the anatomy is the biggest trap.

>>6230477
>>6230485
look at this guys own channel as well
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCoY-XTypQi0LTpsp9zMgrxg/videos
he did these exercises and moved on

>>6230485
>and honestly as copies of lines these aren't even that good. look at them, they're sloppy
>improve accuracy exclusively
anon...if i want to improve line confidence, there's better ways to do that, also i am using a g-pen so...but yeah my lines are getting better the more I do.
>Getting out of your comfort zone is the key to art improvement
>You can go back to your comfort lines, but i implore you to try to jump around harder subjects
I started doing the line accuracy a couple weeks ago, 60 per day.
250 more of 1000, then I will move on.
I was busy these days,but I should able to finish the rest(250) in 4-5 days.
picrel from a month ago

>>6230521
seeing delicacy is part of accuracy

>>6230502
yep, that is plan.
I will start krenz perspective course next week and implement my observation skills.

>>6230418
Ayeee
Can I get the template for those accuracy exercises?

>>6230551
https://streamable.com/5abbeq
create your own scribbles

>>6230551
create your own scribbles
https://streamable.com/5abbeq

>>6230581
>idiot is still shilling worthless noprogress garbage

>>6230645
pyw :^)
you cant.....get fuck permabeg

>>6230418
asians are depressing
I talked to a chinese girl and she seemed confused why I was allowed to watch movies when I was little
they do monotonous studying for everything

>>6230675
that's why they are 100x better that us.

>>6230690
You have made no progress.
You are worthless trash, stop shilling garbage every thread you embarrassing idiot.

>>6230581
Ah I see, thanks bwo and good luck!

>>6230690
>that's why they are 100x better that us.
At committing suicide, sure.
...Also Math, Asians are crazy good at math.

>>6230581
just trying this out now.
why am i so shit at this lmao

>>6230253
after learning to draw, I will say that gesture comes first indeed

it's an hierarchy of detail kind of thing, Gesture can have some form, proportion and structure into it, but it's the first information one gets from a drawing or from a figure, everything else is processed after.

gesture also defines proportion, movement, use of negative and positive space and composition.

once your minds reads the gesture it will focus on stuff like anatomy, structure and detail, but all of that needs to be "inside" the gesture if you catch the drift.

>>6230280
Cause it's the most basic element of observation. It's the simplest way to establish a 'total' of the figure because you're supposed to include every part into the gesture. You learn primary relationships and orientations of the masses by drawing them in the most simple way.
Whether your approach is analyzing the form or copying it, you need to start by a basic arrangement of all elements. When you have the most basic understanding of the form, you can focus on individual parts.

Proportions, mechanics, anatomy, rendering, perspective, line quality etc. are all things you learn to apply later and all of them are meaningless if you have no fundamental understanding of the form and observational drawing.
The easiest way to learn this is through gesture because the flow of the form is what changes how the form will look like.

op should always start by posting their work

Because beginners will fucking try to draw realistic anatomy and they suck at it AND their poses will be stiff and shitty.

Just draw something cartoony to get started and to make sure you understand there's more to art than just "technically" correct anatomy.

>>6230253
Why do you care? There are a million ways to learn and if you don’t like one, why do you care if others choose to learn that way?

>>6231247
>Cause it's the most basic element of observation. It's the simplest way to establish a 'total' of the figure because you're supposed to include every part into the gesture. You learn primary relationships and orientations of the masses by drawing them in the most simple way.
That doesn't mean it should be the first thing you learn.

>>6230327
I'm not Asian so I would never do something so blatantly Chinese.

>>6230253
>Why should beginners be learning to draw an expressive drawing of the action without even understanding the basic proportions
To S O U L anon.

>>6230253
these anons are right, op.
>>6230376
>>6230422
>>6230915
>>6231247
>>6231397
>>6231577

>>6233788
no

>>6231516
if you are having trouble with gesture, then I think you have problem with observational drawing generally, you'll probably need go back to simpler objects than human figures. I was once told by my life drawing professor that the reason we teach gesture was because "drawing 1" wasn't a prerequisite for figure drawing. I used to think this is absurd, but people were having so much trouble with grasping with empirical makes me reconsider. gesture drawing not merely train you in observational and proportions, it loosen you up because you can't be perfect with your mark making, if you don't have much investment, you can just start over. I have tried giving some people advice on figure drawings when they come to me, but they baby their drawings too much, they will work on a face or a hands for days and weeks, just toy with it day after day but never can do it just perfectly. I thought their time can be better spent working on a figure overall, but that little bit of imperfect anatomy or proportion is too much investment for them to give up.

>>6233840
what's wrong with them?

>>6231247
What the fuck are "mechanics"?

>>6230253
>>6230280
Do you even read or watch the "why gesture is important"-part on all the free resources we already have on this board? Jesus Christ.

>>6235039
understand the how the muscle changes shape between different poses.

do you guys actually draw the bean or circle and oval when figure drawing? the concept is good but it takes way too much time...maybe I will try using the ellipse tool next time...

>>6230264
doing the same course, i find gesture a bit boring so his class forces me to do 30 minutes of practice daily.

Also op is retarded you can jump around - which is always encouraged by said instructors - when you are starting out.

>>6230327
i think krenz is too regimented here, you can learn multiple things - gesture, perspective, basic anatomy and figure drawing - in tandem with learning proper proportion and accuracy in your ref drawings. they all support each other, having some since of construction means you spend less time autistically sight measuring every angle.

my own ref drawings time cut in half when i started using basic figure (and i mean extremely basic im beg as hell) drawing and the accuracy went up.

I think all this stuff is ymmv, there is no hard and fast rules for art so why is art instruction assumed to be rigid and scientific.

>mah gesture
fuck off
picrel is what you should be doing

>>6235131
75 minutes what would take an animator 30 seconds.

>>6230327
lol, /ic/ was retarded long before krenz said this, and it remains retarded after. Nothing has changed, really.

>all these muh accuracy
>muh krenz
Duh. Whoever even said to study gesture as the very first thing when you start taking up drawing?
Gesture is the first chapter/lesson of courses and books that are focused on FIGURE DRAWING. Which you shouldn’t be taking first if you’re an absolute beginner because they generally assume you have a basic grasp of basic forms and perspective. If you do go into figure drawing, then yes, gesture comes first before anatomy.

>>6235147
And? We’re back at square 1 where gesture seems to be the thing nobody really knows how to do.

>>6235154
Example: look at all of those class101 courses from those instagram artists. Perfect insight into their process…then when the go teach gesture their figures look like /beg/ but their finished work looks good. Then you look at the student work and their work is /beg/ from start to finish if they ever get to the finish because very small percentage of people actually finish and give up at the stage where gesture is introduced.

>>6235136
yea i am sure a animator can copy 1:1 in 30 sec, retard.

gesture is the most fun part desu
then it looks shitty when I try drawing the real shapes

>>6235158
1:1 in 1 minute

>>6235161
kek
sure

>that chinese guy who cheats on exams still shilling his spend 75 minute to copy a cartoon method

>still care about what some random chinese guy say instead of drawing
kek what a loser

sorry, you need high IQ to understand gesture

Yeah its bullshit. When you start you need to learn something solid and definite like perspective. Gesture drawing is for ints and pros, something you learn AFTER you understand form and how to draw the body as a box

>noooo you have to master X first before moving on to Y
>nooo you can’t study two or more topics simultaneously and try to connect them with each other to deepen your understanding

>>6230444
well then he's wrong

Everyone defending gesture drawing should post their gestures. I am yet to meet anyone that can draw good gestures

Why are you guys throwing gesture away like it's useless? It's one of your tools to draw. You don't have to focus on just one method alone.

>>6235191
It’s easier to start with structure and then as you draw, weave back gesture into structure rather than starting with gesture unless you’re drawing a draft/name for a comic.

>>6235203
That's what I mean. But anons here just imply it's fucking useless.

>>6235203
if I am drawing from imagination, I do not make the distinction.

>>6235203
>he thinks gesture can only be squiggly lines

>>6235285
show us how it’s done

>Mah gesture
>Mah construction
kek
CSI >>>>> all

>>6235326
CSI is still gesture

what is CSI

Gesture is a waste of time.

>>6235561
Crime scene investigation

>>6235780
kek