/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>5245613
Explain in what way they have superior writing or art? Sounds like you should just read some manga.

>>5245613
Comeplete higher level of craftsmenshop and skill on the eastern front, lightyears further than pretty much anything in the west.
The full list of the who and what is quite long, but a huge selling point of eastern works is working at them until theh are actually fun to look at, and are right in all fronts, rsther than just vaguely mathematically right and phoning in the rest.
It is kind of hard to explain in words, just watch and or read black lagoon, flcl, berserk, cowboy bebop, gits, akira, and lupin the third. Those are generally the best titles for westerners, especially ones who aren't ready for moe, and they are extremely well made

>>5245613
oh no no no no no guys

>>5245642
While that list Is valid, Lupin Is a classic and the Akira manga Is legit great, those seems like the most basic series american /co/ people that aren't much into anime enjoy, add Death Note and it's 100% normie picks. What about Nausicaa, Slam Dunk, Battle Angel Alita, Monster, The original Gundam timeline, Fist of The North Star, Rose Du Versailles, and hell even the One Piece manga if they are into stuff like capeshit to begin with/want the most standard genre but done well enough?

>>5245671
The whole point of the list is things that sit well with western audiences. If you give them luckh star most of them shut off and just say anime is not for them.
Precure, luciy star, infinite stratos, monster musume, monogatari, ninja slayer, rolling girls, re cutie honey, yuru yuri, love chunnibyou and other delusions, darling in the franxx, japan animator expo, love lab, sao, all titles that are really good, but either don't sit at all in the west, or are very split among the western fans, if you go and give somebody those right off the bat they may just shut themselves off to anime for good.
It is better to start them off on shinichiro watanabe.

>>5245613
>what exactly Is the appeal of anime and manga in comparison to western comics and cartoons which at their best have superior writing and art?
Personally I think that in general Manga does have the edge when it comes to action sequences when compared to comics. Nips know how to convey movement well, I have yet to find a western artist that draws action on the same level as people like Murata (granted I read mostly frog/belgian comics, lots of which don't focus on elongated action scenes as much as the bloodthirsty slant eyes do)
With that said... Different strokes for different folks. One isn't superior to the other, if you pit the very best manga and comics have to offer, I don't think either would come out on top because they're both so good.
>And why are there many manga/anime fans that refuse to touch anything made in the west?
Same reason you shit on manga for little to no reason. Lack of curiosity or interest. It's okay not to like things, don't be a faggot about it.

>>5245642
>>5245671
>Comeplete higher level of craftsmenshop and skill on the eastern front, lightyears further than pretty much anything in the west.

Not OP, but if you think that Easterns are "lightyears further" you don't really read comics.

Mangas are great, but while the art is on par with others, the fact that the stories are long as hell and heavily serialized compromises the quality: Mangakas have a general idea for the story, but they can't tell how long it will be and so they develop it while they are already publishing it, arc after arc.
You can see this even in great work like Akira and Monster, some parts of them are clearly filler content to take some time.

Westerns* on the other hand already know that a story will last 6-12 issues and the writer can plan accordingly.
So, I don't think manga have reached some western writers at their best, like Gainman, Moore, and Miller.

*You also always forget that France makes a lot of great comics too.

>>5245699
Retarded hypocrite. Can't believe a comic fan can write something like that unironically. This post has so much hypocracy and retardation it would take a book to talk about. Go fuck yourself.

>>5245613
Anime became accessible and cartoons and comics became insufferable and when you have a generations of alienated
Millennials and completely uninterested Zoomers wanted little to medium and its clear to everyone how much you fucked up. At the end of the day Japan simply played the long game and won.

>>5245613
there is none anime isn't even real Art

>>5245699
>Westerns* on the other hand already know that a story will last 6-12 issues and the writer can plan accordingly.
is that why american comics force so much information in one page? thats what turns me off from american comics. Not the style (I grew up with cartoon networks), but their obsesion with making everything clear, to the point characters have conversations which would question if the talker have autism irl. Sure, japanese have characters talking in mid fight sometimes, but atleast those fights last longer than 2-3 pages.

>>5245636
This anon >>5245699 already said what I wanted to say regarding comics. Regarding animation, when the west actually tries and isn't limited it absolutely blows heavily eastern out of the water is terms of storytelling and characters. How many fucking anime series are 300+ episodes long with a lot of those episodes being filler? How many smaller anime like Death Note and Franxx become literal shit after the first half? How many popular series like My Hero Academia are just a rehash of decades old tropes with a new skin? Avatar isn't even an anime but it's better than all of them by lightyears, I can't think of any anime character as well written as Zuko. Are there any anime that are as good or even better than Avatar, Gargoyles, Batman TAS, Anything old Disney, Baski and Bluth movies, The Adventures of The Galaxy Rangers, golden age Simpsons, Over The Garden Wall, Gravity Falls, Spawn TAS, etc.? I honestly doubt it but you're free to open my mind.

>>5245642
You're full of shit, the reason the "craftsmanship" is "light years ahead" is because they all copy each others work.
20 yrs of aa art hive mind has reduced drawing cute design down to a form letter.

>>5245742
Texhnolyze.

>>5245708
HAHAHAHA
COPE

>>5245613
>>5245699
>>5245742
>t. I’ve only ever read mainstream Shounen Jump
This is why everyone hates /co/. Gotta love the insecurity in these East v. West threads.

>>5245613
/ic/ is not a good place to ask. A quick look at the archive will show you that the retards ITT have been flinging shit at each other for years. This is the millionth time this thread has been posted and the conversation goes the same way every time. It's like this board's version of console wars.

>>5245769
Neither Akira nor Monster are Shonen, you don't know what you're talking about.

>>5245613
>superior writing
No. Just stop

>>5245752
i watched it when i was younger and thought it was borig i didnt get it

>>5245613
i just dont like capeshit. its not that manga is inherently superior or something like that, its just not as infested with capeshit. and its also way easier to avoid the manga specific version of capeshit, shonen, than with comics. that's literally it.

that being said, all of that is just me not liking a genre. i think the real issue with western comics is just how difficult it is to actually discover an artist. i learn about new manga from the artists who draw them, and those artists frequently talk to each other and cross promote each other in their comics, so its really easy to flow from one story to another and get a feel for what i like. i remember seeing casual mentions of grappler baki, a over the top manly-man martial arts manga, in fruits basket, a romance novel aimed at teen girls. western comics dont do this. yeah we all know who the fuck mike mignola and alan moore are, but how many people knew of sergio toppi when he was alive? what about someone who was more niche than him? in the west, all cross-series pollination is completely defined by the companies that hold the IP's and not the artists themselves, which means you might learn about the latest ironman comic from the credits of a spiderman comic, but you wont learn about the existence of blacksad because companies dont cross-promote so casually. as a result, the public perception of comics is that it is all just capeshit, and if you only know about comics through Marvel and DC, why would you even bother looking further?

>>5245642
>especially ones who aren't ready for moe
Did you just imply people don't like watching moe because they're "too western-minded" and not because it's fucking trash?

>>5245613
Manga was made for a demographic that can't invest too much time in the media that they enjoy, lest they be trampled in the dystopian hell scape of asian work ethics.

So generally speaking manga is much more high concept, with simpler prenises and character to compliment this.

This is best exemplified if you look at old comic and compare them to their eastern counterparts.

Tl;Dr - Manga predominantly caters to children with too much free time, Asian Wagecucks, and autistic people (I mean this not in a derogatory sense, but literally.)

>>5245794
Holy fuck looking at this gives me a panic attack

>>5245794
Lmao what the fuck

>>5245794
Check

>>5245879
>This is one of the top rated manga in general
This is why actual normal people shits on you garbabe hobby. Fuck weeb shit

>>5245613
>superior writing
Like what? What are some examples of the best writing that western comics has to offer?
I've read Sandman. I liked it, but the story and characters still don't measure up to things like Steins;Gate, YU-NO, When They Cry, etc.
>superior art
Very occasionally. A lot of western comics look like complete ass though. Anime art overall is better on average and has better quality control.

>>5245613
Go away.

>>5245879
ohnonono mangabros they are onto us

>>5246077
>This generic looking low rated shit
>Better story and characters than Sandman
Jesus I know weebs are low QI but are the standards in the east really that much lower?

>>5246095
>low QI

>>5245716
>but their obsesion with making everything clear, to the point characters have conversations which would question if the talker have autism irl.
That a problem with american audiences, more than comics themselves. For some reason, when presented with sci fi and fantasy, americans always try to find a scientific explanation to stuff they see on different works instead of just having fun with it. Like all those people who wanted to explain, with science, if the long winters of Game of Thrones could ever be real.

To aswer the question, if it's Big Two or Jump shit, it's bad. Go beyond the mainstream for once, for fucks sake.

>>5246098
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qi
> qi or ch'i (/ˈtʃiː/ CHEE simplified Chinese: 气; traditional Chinese: 氣; pinyin: qì About this soundqì) is believed to be a vital force forming part of any living entity
he’s calling it soulless

>>5245671
Nausica is so fkin boringzzzzzz

Beserk, FLCL, Watchmen, The killing Joke, Early Knuckles the Echidna comics, Death Note, Early One Piece, Early Yu-Gi-OH

those are just the one's i have read that i can think of rn

>>5246095
The anime adaptation was shit. As all VN adaptations are. The VN is very good though.

The first 4 or 5 books of Sin City are probably as good as comics get as a medium.
Gimenez and other euro oriented painted comics are the best color wise.
Uderzo and Shirow are the best with lineart.
Usune is the best with hatching.
In our is the best at being a lazy fuck.
Writing is mediocre-to-garbage all around.

This is not opinion, but irrefutable fact and if you disagree, you’re just dumb and probably a virgin 2bh

>>5245671
Nausicaa's paneling is ass though, you just happened to post one of the few pages that aren't shit in that regard

>>5246095
Don't judge a book by its cover, nor a VN by its adaptation.

>>5246135
>>5246160
>thread about anime and manga
>noooooo you have to ““““play”””” the vn

>>5246151
>Nausicaa's paneling is ass
lol...no.

>>5246135
>>5246160
OP’s talking about Manga/Comics and Anime/Cartoons, media where you are constrained by their limitations, namely pacing, paneling, and format length.
VNs are slapdash amateur junkyards of prose with no thought given to any of those things and the writers are free to put in hundreds of words’ worth of monologues every 5 minutes if they please and I highly doubt half the audience doesn’t liberally ctrl through a large part of it, given FSN is one of, if not the most lauded and successful VNs in history

>>5245804

as an autistic person with little time working in an area dominated by asians (massage therapy)

i can confirm this, i can't invest in western books and manga is perfect pick up and enjoy reading.

it also helps me with emoting, seeing the simple characters smile.

simpler is better imo, you don't need to render every wrinkle etc. unless its necessary for a crazy character like joker.

>>5246231
Are you gonna tell me some Western comics with good writing or no?
I liked Sandman. Watchmen is ok but it’s not really my thing. What else is there?

>>5245879
Just make a novel at that point

>>5246128
This is honestly the best take.
Why do you have to make it about america vs japan or rest of the world vs asia?
Just read and watch what you enjoy based on your interests and not the place it originates from.

>>5245794
See, shit like this is extremely repulsive to me. Both the art and the writing style.
I know that not all Western comics are this bad, but this is my stereotype of what they’re like, and I don’t feel like I’m unjustified in thinking that way.

>>5246140
>Gimenez
What, you mean this?
Maybe my reaction to this is the way normal people react to seeing moeblobs. I just get a strong immediate “nope, not for me”. The art is telling me that there’s nothing interesting for me here. Not that there’s anything inherently wrong with other people liking it of course.

>>5245613
They prefer Eastern aesthetics and tropes.
You might look at manga and think "it's all cutesy anime girl garbage." Similarly, a weeaboo reading western comics thinks "it's all capeshit."

>>5245699
>Mangas are great, but while the art is on par with others, the fact that the stories are long as hell and heavily serialized compromises the quality
what the fuck am i reading ahahahaah

>>5246304
frighteningly low test

what are widely considered goats of western comics?
Watchmen? Dark Knight Returns? what else?

>>5246103
I see. I personally find fun in brain storming about this kind of stuff, but comics are a bad place to do that, just write a book ffs if you want to theorize. I am a fan of show dont tell, btw.

>>5246422
Hellboy, Sandman, BONE, Cerebus, Transmetropolitan, Frank Miller's Daredevil run, older capeshit like Grant Morrison and Chris Claremont just to name a few

>>5245794
To be fair, almost anything Bendis touches is shit or slowly molds into it.

>>5246422
Western non capeshit suggestions could be Acme Novelty Library by Chris Ware, Most of Daniel Clowes work, Asterios Polyp and City of Glass by David Mazzucchelli and Stray Toasters by Bill Sienkiewicz

As a manga fan, It Is weird the fact that I got into reading a few old highly acclaimed capeshit series thank to the various Capcom games? Granted I was kinda disappointed at first when the art didn't look as legendary as Bengus art but the X-Men run by Claremont Is still worth reading even with his WORDSWORDSWORDS problem (got used to It after a while but It can come off as off-putting to some).

>>5246560
>Art in 90% of those suggestions looks along the lines of this
Call me a fucking pleb with no taste or a brainlet if want, but are there non-capeshit series with art along the lines of Murata/Inoue/>>5246564 or old euro artists like Moebius and Druillet in terms
of more grounded and technical art styles? Not to say Ware/Mazzucchelli are bad artists, I respect them for doing their own stuff, but I am not sure their actual drawing styles are what people look for if the like PunPun, Vagabond and Berserk. Is there anything actually unique but with enough impressive technical skill regarding the art itself without going for that "Avantgard simplicity" or I am out of luck? Hellboy Is a good example but other than that a few other series I can't think much.

>>5245699
>>5245613
Modern western "writing" is either
1. EXTREEEMELY edgy with an obnoxiously excessive amount of profanity, gore, nudity, sex, and anti-religion that only 12 year olds are impressed by.
2. experimental comics that are painfully awful or boring to look at
3. two dimensional LGBT/environmentalist/anti-fascist PSAs for kids
4. Plagiarized from viral tweets in Twitter trending topics.
>>5245742
>I can't think of any anime character as well written as Zuko.
Zuko is just a bad knock off of Char Aznable and Emma from Gundam.

You just watch a lot of shonen so you're easily impressed by "mature" themes (aka watered down PSAs for kids) that Japan did 10x better decades ago.

>>5246095
I used to be easily impressed by anti-religion, gore, and profanity, but then I grew up.

>>5246388
He has a point. Like how FotNS keeps going long after where it should've ended(the kaioh shit specifically).

>>5246621
Shonen and Shojos go longer than expected in general because they're designed for entertainment, get another genre.

Don't you faggots get tired OF THE SAME FUCKING THREAD EVERY DAY
EVERY DAY EAST VS WEST
EVERY DAY
WHAT DO YOU GAIN FROM THIS??
I'M TIRED
WHO CARES ENJOY BOTH EAT SHIT WAHTEVER

They are unspeakably fucking ugly even at their best.

>>5245636
Grant Morrison

>>5245613
there's just more manga in circulation and in pop culture
and the actual good western stuff is very VERY obscure

>>5246755
>>5247408
or gee maybe youre a braindead teen who is literally incapable of doing the bare minimum required to consume media that isnt shoved into your drooling slut mouth

>all comics are capeshit
>all mangas are shonen
this thread is utterly retarded

>>5247459
reminder that these are the
"people" critiquing your art

>>5245613
>superior writing

>>5247450
if a product doesn't reach its consumers, marketing is at fault

>>5247476
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrGeePhdfIA

|||run program|||
>is thing anime
no
>thing is bad
thing is bad
|||execute....processing...print|||

DOOOOD SUPERIOR WRITING LOOOOOOOOLL IMAGINE LOOOOOL LKMAO ING AT UR LIFE LMAOOO WESTERN SHITTTTT HAHAHAHHAHAAAA

>>5247481
haha holy shit you'd have to be a fucking retard to truly believe this. thank god, stay away from my comics. i cant imagine an NPC like you who is actually subscribed to Katy Perry and Failblog on youtube and is shaking and screeching to get his hands on the latest Big Mac Ultranigger Fuckburger from McDonalds

>>5247490
|||run program|||
>is thing anime
yes
>thing is bad
thing is bad
|||execute....processing...print|||

DOOOOD SUPERIOR WRITING LOOOOOOOOLL IMAGINE LOOOOOL LKMAO ING AT UR LIFE LMAOOO EASTERN SHITTTTT HAHAHAHHAHAAAA

>>5247497
i never said anime was bad you snot nosed mongoloid. thats your problem, you dont want to experience new things you just want to argue. i genuinely hope you never do

Why do /co/ hates everything japanese by default unironically? They don't even talk about comics on their board, just garbage cartoons made for 5 years olds lmao. Those are the people complaining about "MoEbLoBs"?????

>>5247500
You’re so blatantly insecure it, it hurts. Get help.

>>5245613
Western artists don't know how to draw a fight. They make it look static, you can't feel the motion, the speed and the weight of the hits, there's no pathos. They don't know how to make a character feel threatening, how to make the reader excited for what's gonna happen next.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uInKvdEuRqk

>>5247858
>source
>some shaky video

>>5247868
You can read it here.
https://mangadex.org/chapter/470867/17

>>5246602
And modern eastern "writing" is
1.Power fantasy that panders Otakus (80% of season anime and light novels)
2.Dumb shonens with gimmicks have seen a million times
3.EXTREEEMELY edgy with an obnoxiously excessive amount of profanity, gore, nudity, sex, and anti-religion that only 12 year olds are impressed by. (most seinen and "edgy shonens")
4.Derivative coomshit

Surprise, surprise, a majority of everything is garbage.

>>5245613
>western comics and cartoons which at their best have superior writing and art
weak bait
>>5245699
Decent bait, but the hypocrisy is clearly deliberate.

>>5247879
>all blond-haired girls (and one guy) are saber clones
weak bait

>>5247881
>Decent bait, but the hypocrisy is clearly deliberate.
Bait aside, he isn't wrong.
The industry in Japan forces authors to pad out their stories. The only exceptions being series like Osamu Tezuka's Phoenix where the author is so well-known and successful he has complete control over his work.
In that sense, he is closer to european comic books where they don't release much albums but it's always carefully planned

>>5247889
I didn't think it was possible to misunderstand a picture so much.
It mocks fate fans who claim this

>>5245613
>few experiences regarding japanese media
> western comics and cartoons which at their best have superior writing and art

You approach the question dishonestly and with a heavy bias, which is why you don't find a real answer on your own. You don't really seek one.

>>5247858
why do you always have to have fights in comics though

>>5246636
all of manga is marketed like this, regardless of demograhic

>>5247971
Conflict is the essence of good storytelling, and physical violence is the purest form of conflict.

>>5247995
>and physical violence is the purest form of conflict
You have the mind of an 8 year old

>>5248000
Prove me wrong. You can't.

>>5248000
>You have the mind of an 8 year old
Why do you think he reads comic books?

>>5247971
Not always, Death Note and Monster are prime examples that throwing punches isn't necessary at all to get invested in a story and that's just in the action scene.

Some don't even need violence at all.

>>5248025
Go read your teen drama.

>>5248031
Thanks for proving my point, kid.

It occurred to me that Harry Potter (inb4 hurr durr dumb normie books for children) is an example of a Western story that has a lot of the positive qualities that I usually associate with Eastern writing. Characters with strongly identifiable and differentiated personalities but who aren’t completely reducible to their tropes, a plot based on suspense and mystery with a relatively dynamic underlying structure, a setting where more thought went into making it unique beyond “it’s fantasy” or “it’s sci-fi”. And most importantly, a general sense of fun and lightheartedness; the story never takes itself too seriously even though it’s also capable of containing sad and dramatic moments as well.
I find these qualities frequently in manga, anime, VNs, and JRPGs, and I find them frequently missing in Western media, which is why I spend most of my time with Eastern media.

>>5248034
>thanks for proving my point
You never had one in the first place, fag.

>>5245613
>And why are there many manga/anime fans that refuse to touch anything made in the west?
Fanboys being faggots, as usual.

There are very few fundamental differences in western and Japanese comics. If you want to learn about them you should (and you should either way) read Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud. And these differences are becoming less and less prominent since comic book artists around the world gets a broader influx of inspiration due to the increased accessibility of comics from around the world.

But I guess one major reason why eastern comics are so popular are due to how common it is that you have a single story that spans multiple volumes. And with something like Spider-Man or Tintin you usually have multiple contained stories with established characters. Especially when it comes to capeshit it can be difficult to pick it up for new readers because you have relationships and character developments that spans multiple decades worth of different books and plots. It can make it quite scary for a new reader. With Naruto you just start at #1. And also manga often having younger characters put in overly edgy situations which for some reason resonates with grimdark 14yo's. Another common occurrence in manga that's rarely talked about is that tracing photographs are very common (tracing in western comics happens, but it's a lot more taboo). Which can result in cleaner and more "correct" art.

>>5248398
>There are very few fundamental differences in western and Japanese comics.
I mean, that already seems wrong, because this >>5248026 does not look like this >>5246755
At the very least, the raw visual experience of looking at Western comics tends to differ from looking at manga.
>stuff about East vs West story structure
I’m not sure how true your generalizations are, so I guess I’ll just throw out some generalizations of my own. Something that gets people hooked on a lot of different manga is the use of plot twists and other sorts of “big reveals”. Part of why people read One Piece every week is because they really want to know what the heck One Piece actually is, who Joyboy is, who Imu is, etc. The plot is based on a series of underlying mysteries: questions that the story makes you care about, but doesn’t provide the answers to yet. In a lot of ways the use of “big reveals” can be considered a cheap literary device, because once you know the answer the story will rarely be as exciting a second time, but you can’t deny that it does get people hooked for at least one reading.
Part of a Big Reveal is that there’s also a sense of finality to it: the story has a set of ultimate questions, and once you know those answers, you have learned everything important about the author’s universe that there is to know, bringing a satisfying sense of finality and completion to the story.
As far as I know, in my very limited experience with Western comics, these sorts of devices get used much less often. What are the burning questions and mysteries generated by Spiderman or Batman beyond who they’re going to fight this week and how they’re going to win? It’s also hard for Western capeshit in particular to build steadily towards a final conclusion, because the stories are designed to be episodic and extended indefinitely.
(Cont.)

>>5248398
>>5248450
(Cont.)
Obviously I’m not trying to say that no Western comic has ever had a plot twist before. But I think this gets at a GENERAL pattern WHICH IS NOT TRUE IN EVERY SINGLE CASE for why I find Eastern stories more appealing than Western stories.
>grimdark
Weird that you mention that. I think of grimdark as being far more of a Western thing than an Eastern thing. Elfen Lied to me is less grimdark than your average Western comic starring a 30-40 something crimefighting dude with a troubled past. Grimdark I think is not about the actual amount of blood and sex that’s shown, but is more about how the story views itself and how the story views the world at large.
>tracing is taboo in the West
What in the ever loving fuck am I reading.
Someone post that pic of the comic artist who traced literally everything.

>>5248458
>average Western comic starring a 30-40 something crimefighting dude with a troubled past
And attack on titan mogs even the most edgy western shows

>>5248450
Superman does not look like Mushishi does not look like Calvin and Hobbes does not look like Whomp. There's a massive scope of different ways of drawing a comic and truthfully putting them in east and west is not very productive. Berserk is way more similar to Conan the Barbarian than it is to Detective Conan. A more fair comparison would be to compare stuff from Shonen Jump with stuff published by Marvel and DC since they aim their content to a very similar age group. But fundamentally it's still drawings put next to each other with the purpose of telling a story. It's not as if comparing an opera and a novel.

And you're somewhat correct in your generalization (even though there definitely are western comics that does this, The Sandman and Scott Pilgrim comes to mind).
Plot twists you can find everywhere in all storytelling mediums. Asterix, Donald Duck, Hellblazer, etc.

By edgy I meant 12 year olds cutting people up and blood spraying everywhere and it's super duper cool. But it's not like manga is necessarily edgier or darker than western comics. I don't think there's a real difference there. Just that the edginess is aimed towards different age groups. Hellblazer is edgier and darker than Naruto, but Naruto is aimed towards teens and Hellblazer is aimed towards late teens/adults.

Tracing happens everywhere but I promise you it's more common in manga and it's more accepted in manga. For example Sun-Ken-Rock vividly details the process in the fucking manga. It's perhaps not more common in Shonen Jump stuff than in Marvel stuff (I don't know enough about what's published by them these days. Marvel and DC has certainly jumped on the tracing train in recent years), but on a grand scale there is an obvious difference.

>>5248077
Basically eastern storytelling appeals to kids

>>5248503
>There's a massive scope of different ways of drawing a comic and truthfully putting them in east and west is not very productive
That's true to some extent but at the same time there are art style that are just impossible to find on either side of the ocean. Are there any japanese artists that do Fiona Staples/Stjepan Šejić type semi-realism? What about Milton Caniff reminiscent cartoony styles? Are there are western comics artists that in styles similar to Rumiko Takahashi without even being influenced by her or manga in general? What about horror cartoonists similar to Kazuo Umezu?

>>5248541
*that draw in styles similar to

>>5245613
This is not a question of black and white about whether one entertainment medium is better than another, that one thing is more realistic does not mean that it is better if you think it with a good story

Besides, let's face it, there are entertainment media that sometimes touch each other on certain occasions. Especially in those shonens in which they have a realistic style

>>5245613
There are good comics and good manga.

I'd say overall eastern comics have higher quality but that just might be based on what I have read. The Sandman is a good comic but I don't think it compares to something like Berserk or Vagabond.

>>5248541
You have a point! And I kind of brought it up here >>5248398
But I do strongly believe (because it's noticeable that it's happening) that more and more comics gets gentrified due to their authors getting inspired by people that lives far away due to accessibility.
And there's also the aspect of how many of the most interesting artists are difficult to compare with any other due to having a unique style.

Also
>Are there any japanese artists that do Fiona Staples/Stjepan Šejić type semi-realism?
There's no fucking way either of those aren't massively inspired by a bunch of different manga.

>>5248541
I don't want to sound cocky but is this a regular level of drawing regarding east comic books? I always thought you had to be some absolute detail pro nowdays to even put your foot in the door. I like how it looks.

>>5248641
First of all she's fucking fantastic. That's a random page of a comic that probably took ~2h to draw.

And not to pretend to actually know how the industry works. But I would imagine it's like most other industries where work ethic and consistency is more important than having top-tier quality on everything you do. Like I would imagine Marvel rather hires someone that they knows for a fact will produce 24 pages in a month and is easy to work with, than someone that makes absolutely fantastic 10/10 stuff and uploads to their Instagram, but they know nothing else about.

>>5248398
>There are very few fundamental differences in western and Japanese comics.
What? They're different in nearly every way you can think of.

>If you want to learn about them you should (and you should either way) read Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud.
Or you could just read the comics themselves...

>>5248541
>>5248705
Are you serious? It looks like shit.

>she
That explains it, I guess.

>>5245742
You clearly haven't touched Berserk, Vagabond or Eyeshield21 mangas in your life.

>>5245742
>ATLA bootlicking
your franchise is dead
get over it

>>5248921
Stop being such a fucking crab

>>5247890
>The industry in Japan forces authors to pad out their stories.
And the west doesn’t?

All of capeshit should have ended decades ago. Walking Dead is another example. I can pull up hundreds of examples of manga that had their run and ended on their own terms, whereas in the west, we’re still perpetuating the same IP and keeping then alive like an old fossil refusing to die. Comics that start and end on their own terms are significantly less common than manga that do the same in Japan, simply out of sheer volume. The manga industry in Japan dwarves the American and European comic industries combined. Between smaller publishers, indies, and doujinshi, more manga get made in Japan in a month than get made in a year in America and Europe. You’re the only idiot that qualifies all of manga as mainstream shounen jump, when that’s only 30 series out of the 10,000+ others that see publication every month.

Japan’s strength in the medium is variety and creator freedom. No other industry on Earth can compete with it on those terms.

>>5248912

>>5248978
I mean, I’m not gonna call her a /beg/ or anything. She’s a lot better than I am (otherwise I wouldn’t be posting on /ic/). But I still don’t personally think the art looks good and it doesn’t make me want to read the comic.

>>5249010
Not an argument.

>>5249036
Do they sound different? Do they smell different?
No? Then they aren't >different in nearly every way you can think of.

It's the same medium and works according to the same limitations and opportunities that the medium creates.

And you should genuinely check out Understanding Comics. It's one of the best and most comprehensive things I've consumed about how to understand any visual medium (not only comics). It should be on every single top 10 art tutorial book list out there, and it's not even a tutorial book. I know I sound like a faggy shill. But it deserves the faggy shilling.

>>5249030
>and it doesn’t make me want to read the comic
Then don't. I haven't (although I've heard great things about it and it's on my read list). The only thing she's done that I've read was Archie and I thought it was boring as shit. But that wasn't the art's fault.

And here's a life tip. If someone is better at you at something, be very careful when you say that they are bad at what they do. Dunning-Kruger is a sneaky bitch.

>>5249056
It's the same medium. Other than that, they couldn't be more different. You sound like an idiot, to be honest. But I guess that's to be expected from someone who 'consumes' books.

>>5249108
Not an argument.

>>5249065
Not him, but my art is better than hers, and that anon is correct on it being mediocre. No, I won’t be posting my stuff, but I can break it down.

At least on that page alone, you’ve got some minor errors in anatomy and proportion. However the worst parts are the weak panelling from a narrative and compositional standpoint, and the “acting” of the characters. There’s three very bizarre expressions that don’t accurately convey the mood the scene should be going for, instead, it’s awkward. The way the narration is just scribbled onto the panels is ugly and difficult to read. They should have placed them into distinct squares to dictate narration, and placed them at intervals between the panels to string together the pacing of the scene. Panels 3 and 4 also pull away from the height of the drama by zooming out and though it’s hard to judge since it’s a singular page, panel 1 is useless as it gives us little to no information, and doesn’t heighten the scene. For example, if this scene is “he arrived at the top to witness his wife holding a man at gun point” the arrive part should be the final panel of the previous page, leaving a cliffhanger, and you open the next page with a detailed splash of her holding the man at gunpoint. Zoomed out like panel 4. Narration part one would be a black panel with only the text. Gets broken up by a bubble that interrupts it “Marko?” He approaches her like in panel three, but we don’t see her face “my love, are you...?” Next panel is a zoom on her, face in tears of anguish and she shouts her line dramatically. You zoom put again like panel 4. And you string the narration into the “me too.” To cap off the page. I could draw it, but I don’t feel like it. But it can be much better and more interesting. The paneling isn’t serving the drama.

>>5249131
2/2

Also, the colors are ugly. Flat coloring is fine, but the color choice is jarring. If this is meant to be a frigid scene showing the coldness of their hearts or whatever, then you want more blues and greys, and you wanna color the characters in those tones as well. The lighting of the place should affect the colore of the characters too

Also, they’d do well to add in sone aspect to aspect transitions in between the drama of the snowstorm blaring on. Use the weather as a symbol for the turnoil in their hearts.

>>5248077
>Characters with strongly identifiable and differentiated personalities but who aren’t completely reducible to their tropes
>setting where more thought went into making it unique beyond “it’s fantasy” or “it’s sci-fi”.
>the story never takes itself too seriously
>HP

>>5249065
>And here's a life tip. If someone is better at you at something, be very careful when you say that they are bad at what they do. Dunning-Kruger is a sneaky bitch.
lol?

>>5245742
>Bluth movies
>Pebble and the Penguin
>Rock a Doodle
>Thumbelina
>The Bartok spinoff movie
>Fucking TROLL IN CENTRAL PARK
>ALL OF THESE ARE BETTER THEN THE ENTIRE HISTORY OF ANIME AS A MEDIUM

I love Don Bluth animation too but COME ON anon

>>5249131
>>5249132
I don't understand a single word you said, how ngmi am I?

>>5249540
Not very. Ignore the autism poster.

>>5249007
>And the west doesn’t?
No. Not in the same way Japan does.

Of course, even the west has and had series that go for too long, but those are exceptions while the market is full of one-shots and mini-series.

> when that’s only 30 series out of the 10,000+ others that see publication every month.

I'm >>5245699 and I used Gaiman, Moore, and Miller as examples compared to Otomo and Urasawa. I'm not talking only about shonen.

And you're actually proving my point: you can only think in terms of "series".
In the West, there are a lot of comics that aren't even serialized because you can go to some publisher and make a single 200 pages comic.
Comics like A Contract with God by Will Eisner, Asterios Polyp by David Mazzucchelli, Blankets by Craig Thompson to name a few.
In the East, you can't bypass magazines and serialization. It's good for business because of course selling magazines is more profitable, but I don't think it good for stories.

Akira and Monster are almost masterpieces, but they are too long, not every chapter is as good as the others.

>>5249593
And Japan has Comiket and Comitia, both of which are geared toward independent publishing, which is far more lucrative and sustainable than it is in the west. Especially considering Comiket which is geared toward mostly indie porno manga, dwarves Comicon is attendance.

You’re not taking ANY of the one shots that are published in Japan into consideration either. Hell, to get into a publishing contract with a major publisher too, you must first make several one shots. Most of the Jump mainstays all have several in their catalogue of works, each. Akira Toriyama for example might be famous for Dragonball, but he’s got like 5 other series or more under his name. Several of which he did end on his own terms. Manga that overstay their welcome are actually a result of being incredibly popular, and aren’t the norm. Most mangaka make several series over the course of their careers. Sone of them with a number of different publishers. It’s like, you’re literally just scratching the tip of the iceberg with manga. Even by naming Monster and Akira, which are again, WILDLY popular and successful in Japan.

Some day, once in your life. Go to Tokyo, walk into a Book Off, and just scour their manga section. Or better yet, head to Shibuya, and look for Mandarake.

There’s THOUSANDS literal thousands of manga that fit the exact description you’re making. Series you’ve never heard of. Manga’s strength is again, variety as a result of a much healthier industry.

What you get in the west isn’t even 1% of what gets published in Japan. People basically only see Shounen Jump and some other popular series and assume that it’s representative of all of manga. Contrary to popular belief, stuff like Monster, Berserk, GitS and Alita isn’t obscure.

>>5248510
>>5249501
So. Are any Western comic fans going to provide an actual defense of Western writing in this thread beyond “Sandman is good”?
I’ve tried to offer some explanations for why I enjoy Eastern storytelling. You don’t have to agree with my analysis. But can you explain what positive qualities Western comics writing has, beyond just saying that its critics have misunderstood it?

>>5249657
This thread, like all the others before it, is just a bunch of insecure /co/fags being butthurt at the popular kid (manga), and being elitist about it.

You'll get nothing of the sort.

>>5249593
>Akira and Monster are almost masterpieces, but they are too long, not every chapter is as good as the others.
This is like saying Lord of the Rings is "almost a masterpiece" because it's too long. You're an absolute retard of the highest caliber.

>>5245699
>the stories are long as hell and heavily serialized compromises the quality
mainstream Comics have the same issue.
Just pick any hero and look at how convoluted their history is due to decades of storyline buildup.

>>5249631
>Cominket and Comitia.

No. You're completely missing the point of what I said.
You're talking about self-publishing.
I talked about Esiner, Mazzucchelli, and Thompson to show you how there is another way of making good comics within the industry.

This means: an author work on his comic with the editor, THEN he publishes it and he moves on to the next story.

With a serialized story the dynamic is different: an author work on part of the comic with the editor and he publishes it BEFORE he has finished the story.

The problem is that if the author gets to the end of the story and notices that some parts of the beginning now are shits, or maybe he changed his mind about something or has better ideas, with a serialized work he's fucked because he has already published the parts that he hates now.

And this is why working on mini-series, in case of serialized comic, it's also better. Planning in advance a story for a 6 issues mini-series is doable, planning in advance for something that goes on for >100 issues is impossible.

>>5249954
Also want to add on that a huge reason manga took off is because those stories end. I can pick up from most authors and know that what I’m reading will be a conclusive story that ends and for the most part I won’t have to worry about those characters again whether it’ll take 6 months or 6 years for that story to conclude. I’m not guaranteed the same with comics.

>>5249954
You and others can't read.

I specifically compared good west writers to good mangaka.

Yes, there is shit everywhere, thank you.

>>5249962
>>5249969
You’re the one missing the point, and you’re being awfully elitist about it too. Purely due to the fact that it’s a larger industry with a far larger number of creators, and an industry completely unrestricted in what you’re allowed to publish, you’re going to end up with a much larger number of GOOD writers entering the scene. Manga beats out comics because manga had the advantage that there’s pretty much something out there for everyone, and you’ve got tons of creators experimenting with the medium and pushing it to new boundaries all the time. That level of ingenuity simply isn’t afforded in the west due to how small the industry is. Even some of the best writers in comics usually wind up being deadbeats who couldn’t make it as a novelist/author/screenwriter, so they opted for comics instead.

You posted Saga up above, a comic which has received wide critical acclaim and even won 3 Eisner awards for it’s writing. And really, and earnestly compare the writing in it to actual novels, or screenplay. I mean just look at the prose and dialogue in that page... meanwhile in manga it’s not uncommon for authors and directors to jump in and write a manga, Hayao Miyazaki being a perfect example. You’ll never get something like Vagabond or Innocent out of comics simply cause the medium isn’t respected or varied or lucrative enough to appeal to established talent.

Well-written comics, and I mean GENUINELY well-written, are a rarity, not the norm. And for every really good one, Japan basically triples the number.

>>5249962
>Planning in advance a story for a 6 issues mini-series is doable, planning in advance for something that goes on for >100 issues is impossible.
Funny you say that, when TV can manage just fine. Breaking Bad is 5 seasons long, and excellent throughout. Also, manga has tons of 2-6 volume runs. They’re actually the most common.

Ever hear of Btooooom? All You Need is Kill? Paradise Kiss? Black Jack? FUCKING DEVILMAN?!?

>>5250060
>You posted Saga up above

You can't literally read.
I'm not the one that posted Saga.
I talked about Eisner, Mazzucchelli, and Thompson, in the post you quoted, and about Miller, Moore, and Gaiman in another.
Yes, you can compare their works to actual novels and to other mangas.
If you think you can "triple the number" you don't read enough comics.

>>5249969
>>5250149
>the ESL keeps repeating that other people can't read
Rich

>>5250149
>If you think you can "triple the number" you don't read enough comics.
No, you just don’t read enough manga, evidently. Stop being so butthurt. It’s not that “manga is inherently superior” it’s simply just that manga has a much better developed industry that draws in far more talent. Basic fucking arithmetic you spastic.

>>5250733
>Basic fucking arithmetic you spastic.

If "It’s not that manga is inherently superior" then talent is constant across countries.
If talent is constant there is no fucking way that Japan has more good comics than all the other countries combined, even if they make more comics.
It's basic fucking arithmetic.

Publishers don't pick up artists at random, they are all interested in talent. Even if they could miss some talent, they still search for good self-published comics to reprint, as it happened with Copra, the Spider King, or Head Lopper, for example.

Talent doesn't magically appear because publishers make more comics. The fact that the industry is bigger means that for any aspiring artist is easier to work, and then have some experience to not be absolute shit.
But talent and "genuinely well-written comics" are another thing, and they are already scouted in other countries.

>>5246755
background's not so bad...

>>5251296
literally only thing wrong with that drawing is the mouth, better than 99.99% of anyone here + most anime

>>5251306
looks like that one guy from the office taking a selfie...Ed Helms?

Hard to say, I love Frank Miller for various reasons, Peter Milligan, Alan Moore, Grant Morrison. Jeff Smith is the biggest name in the last twenty years of American comics... the role of cooperation and the Mediaeval guild structure plays a big role in the creation of superhero comics.

European comics have the ability to deliver extensive background art, but this seems to hamper the rhythm and dialogue at times. I don't know if French comics are as psychological as their films.

Urasawa is a genius. Junji Ito is an atmospheric, artistic and conceptual genius. A lot of those pulpier serial mangaka are brilliant in ways that American tv used to be. The West frankly hasn't had anyone like these guys in comics since HERGE, because the opportunities that cartoonists and short story authors had disappeared. The western analogy to most leading mangaka is basically like "Imagine if an author like Ian McEwan could write *and* draw..." -- Dave Sim might've come close to this sort of thing with Cerebus but that loosely journalistic tone can't be found in Western comics now. Bone is a bit like the Disney-fied, corporate equivalent of Cerebus. No one was going to turn Cerebus into an animated show or movie, and even when Bone had a movie offer the soundtrack was going to be stuffed with pop bands. Among comic authors, there's no clear modern equivalent to Stan Lee. Would you recommend that women read comics or shoujo manga? Probably the latter.

Ultimately I think the thematic and conceptual orientation of manga is more akin to European sensibilities than America's highly critical and discursive orientation. The focus on interior monologue, psychological drama and extended conversation (rare as those titles are) keep manga on top, and only American satirical comics can really approach or go beyond this.

Miller's DKR is also another example of his work as a satirist... he's never done something quite as earnest as AKIRA, unless you count Robocop...but even there, it's the superhero dynamic, with a hero who is really just the first among equals

>>5247476
Seeth more weebcel, but the western mind is supreme

>>5251205
>there is no fucking way that Japan has more good comics than all the other countries combined, even if they make more comics.
>let me compare this small island nation with a population of 132 million to the ENTIRE FUCKING PLANET, all 8 billion and counting
Yeah, totally not a dishonest argument. That said, Japan’s industry is so massive, it alone probably prints more manga than the rest of the world combined prints comics, considering only a handful of developed nations print comics. But them I wonder, are you including Korean Manwha and Chinese Manhua in your argument or not? Hardly seems fair to pit Japan’s Asian neighbors to make your argument now does it? Bit then, if we make THAT distinction, then you don’t get to include Bandes Desine either. After all the separation between them and comics is the same as the one between comics, manga, and manhua/manwha. So, goodbye Italy, France, and Belgium too. Making your argument essentially USA vs Japan.

Do you see how stupid your argument is?

That said, even if you pit Japan vs USA and Europe, Japan probably wound come out ahead in raw numbers. The industry is just THAT large.

> Publishers don't pick up artists at random, they are all interested in talent.

It’s less to do with publishers and more to do with profitability. Japanese publishers offer better contracts, with better pay, where you get paid up front in royalties for books printed, plus a healthy commission pay for having it showcased on their magazine.

Higher profitability means higher incentive to do it. Meanwhile in the west, it’s not even possible to make it sustainable for most people who’d like to.

I don’t understand what’s so hard about this for you to grasp.

>>5251205
In Japan, Manga is literally a cherished cultural tradition. Contrary to what you might think, manga originates from Japan, and it grew simultaneously alongside western comics, hell, their sequential art might actually predate the first western comics. Thus, the result is that basically everyone in Japan reads manga.

Meanwhile in the west, the medium is hardly respected and treated as infantile and niche. It’s BECAUSE comics are so niche that the industry simply isn’t profitable enough to draw the large quantities of talent Japan can.

FFS, manga LITERATELY outsells comics in the USA and Europe. That should tell you everything you need to know. Comic stores are a dying breed in the west. And comic sections in bookstores are a 10m x 5m section. Whereas in Japan you got dedicated manga stores just about everywhere, 6 stories high, nothing but manga, 1st hand, 2nd hand, entire floors of book shops dedicated to manga. You got tons of novelty shops in every city that sell nothing but anime/manga GOODS. You walk into a convenience store, and they have an entire back-shelf full of manga magazines, and a small shelf for tankbons.

Point being, manga SELLS. In its native country, where it’s well respected, and abroad as one of the country’s biggest cultural exports. This = more money and therefore incentive for people to make manga, which = more talent. Meanwhile in the west, someone who would be inclined to make a comic, and might be incredibly talented, doesn’t bite the bullet as they weight their options between a passion project for no money and a shitty contract, working for Marvel, or just giving up on it and doing something else. Hell, it wasn’t until Webtoons came along that many people saw a way to actually do what Japan’s been letting people do for decades now.

>>5251780
If you were Marvel or the entire demand and supply of the entire West. What would the West have to do if their sleeves have to be respectable or just as interesting as the sleeves I am Western and I am afraid that my "pseudomanga / comics" will not be respected due to the little demand that there is, how could I handle that or what change would I have? to do the subculture of comics to be respectable?

>>5251798
The entire industry, Japan included is moving online. Webtoons is a perfect example of what to do. An open platform to scour for talent. Host contests with $10,000 rewards (yes you heard that right), offer the best of the best lucrative publishing deals where they’re paid royalties up front for book PRINTED not sold as well as a commission. Be incredibly open minded about what people are allowed to create (ie leave the stupid sjw politics out the door and let the public decide), however, be very very strict and demanding with deadlines, pour a LOT of money into marketing, as well as printing deals and even animation. Netflix and Crunchroll are happy to oblige.

There’s definitely thirst out there for creative content, what’s missing in the west is the support. Webtoons is setting the right example, and it’s why Jump is copying them.

Diverse stories not just superheroes recycled again. I do admit the west has those but not in great numbers. Oh and coom service.

>>5245613
OP's pic not really my aesthetic and it would stop me from reading it. That's the issue, too. I am just not really into. Also, a lot of the art and writing isn't 'superior' so I am not sure wtf OP is talking about.

Also, let's be honest unless it's about lesbians, actions, crime noir, mystery, a memoir, superheroes, for children, or maybe horror, its pretty rare to find variety in US comics. There's just a huge lack of stories I'm really interested in reading.

>>5245794
I literally abhor shit like this. It's like the only thing doing all the storytelling are the words when it should be BOTH the art and the words. Shit like this is the worse. Damn, even Death Note did it better and that was exposition city.

>>5245879
I don't like it, but at least the text are in their own boxes w no art. But yes, people like this should just write a novel.

>>5246095
>Jesus I know weebs are low QI

Troll?

>>5251778
>Yeah, totally not a dishonest argument

Oh, I'm sorry, now you get the basic arithmetic and Japan doesn't "triple the numbers" of good comics anymore?

>>5251778
>>5251780

I'm well aware of how big the manga market is compared to the USA and Europe.
On the other hand, you exaggerate. In France, comics are treated like books, and you can clearly see how bande dessineè have a wide range of themes and styles for this reason, they don't only have TinTin and Asterix.
Comics aren't dying. Even with the pandemic (no Cons) sales went up both in France and the USA, in 2020.

>This = more money and therefore incentive for people to make manga, which = more talent.

This is bullshit. Money doesn't create talent. With a better industry you have more "professionals", not more "talented people".
If money could create talent, Marvel movies and Tv series would be masterpieces.

As I already said, in the west if you're talented you can work, and if you want to be only a writer it's even easier (drawing requires more time).

And if people like you stop obsessing over Japan and start reading some more comics, it would be even easier.

>>5245613
>what exactly Is the appeal of anime and manga in comparison to western comics and cartoons
Variety, convenience and marketing. It's much easier to access manga than comics, for example. Even on /co/ you'll be lucky if a non-cape comic thread takes off, and those pale in comparison to the cartoon and coom threads. /shelf/ and storytimes are one of the few saving graces there.
I haven't been on /co/ in a while, has there been a board split yet?

>>5251937
>And if people like you stop obsessing over Japan and start reading some more comics, it would be even easier.
Well, tough shit. I live in Japan, and I make manga. I like manga, and I'll continue to read manga. That's not to say I don't enjoy comics. I dig Moebius and Miller. And I have the entire collection of the new Blondel-Cano Elric books.

There's a lot to like in Comics as well, especially when you completely disregard all the capeshit and walking nonsense.

However, between the two mediums, manga has a lot more to offer. And people like you, who constantly make these threads on /ic/ out of insecurity, do nothing but piss me off, and force me to center myself on my stance much more than I normally would.

Bit of advice, if you want people to read more comics over manga, the very first thing you should do stop antagonizing others for prefering to read manga. Drop the insecurity and elitism, and stop pretending you're better or more enlightened for being a contrarian. Learn to accept what both mediums have to offer, as part of why Japan is so good in the first place is cause unlike fanboys (from both sides /a/ is full of idiots just like you but on the opposite side), they happily read across both mediums and draw inspiration from both side.

If you can't clearly draw the line from Moebius to Miyazaki and back into the west, then you need to drop the pretention, and reasses yourself.

>>5251999
>Drop the insecurity and elitism
>the two mediums

It's the same medium, for fuck sake.
Manga isn't as special as you think it is.

And I'm supposed to be the "elitist".

You want to only read manga, fine, but don't claim "Japan is so good" because you're showing to everyone that you only have a vague idea of what comics are outside of Japan, and the variety that exists, even if you have read a couple of western authors you really don't have terms of comparison.

On a side note:
>Drop the insecurity
Really?
You've basically said that you have taken it personally and explained why:
>I live in Japan, and I make manga. I like manga, and I'll continue to read manga.
Someone says that manga's writing isn't perfect and you see your life choices being questioned.

Even if you don't count capeshit and don't even get started on Japan alone, it's impressive how much more varied even Europe Is compared to mutts.

>But m-muh Image shit!!!!111!
Literally 80% of this list Is more significant and even looks better than 99% of the stuff Image Comics produces:
TinTin
The Incal
The World Of Edena
Lone Sloane
Yragael-Urm
The Night
The Nikopol Trilogy
The Beast Trilogy
Beautiful Darkness
Barbarella
Corto Maltese
La Trilogia Shakesperiana
Valentina
The Borgias, Giuseppe Bergman and other works by Milo Manara
Pretty much everything by Sergio Toppi, Dino Battaglia and Micheluzzi
Ranxerox
Works by Andrea Pazienza
Dylan Dog
Nathan Never
Zagor
Alan Ford
Works by Magnus
Mercurio Loi
Max Fridman
Cocco Bill
Golem
Aldebaran
Jeremiah
Skydoll
Keepers of the maser
Ken Parker
Les Cités obscures
El Mercenario
The Eagles Of Rome
Alix
Druuna
Bouncer
Blacksad
XIII
Thorgal
Blueberry
The Great Power of Chninkel
Asterix and Obelix
Blake Et Mortimer
Spirou Et Fantasio
Tank Girl
Judge Dredd
Slaine
Luther Arkwright
Nemesis The Warlock
The Ballad Of Halo Jones
ABC Warriors
Rogue Trooper

Where are your gods now?

>>5251995
plus every manga is like 200 pages... compared with 20 pages of comics (for the same price)

>>5245879
dunno what's the case with the one on the right, but the one on the left is late hunterXhunter and that's kinda a special case, which neither represents hunterXhunter as a series nor japanese comics. I've read like couple hundred volumes of various japanese shit and stuff like the pages you posted were a total rarity.

>>5252069
Not really. I’m just tired of this thread over and over and over and over again. I’m pretty sure it’s you, the same person, each time too.

> Japan is so good" because you're showing to everyone that you only have a vague idea of what comics are outside of Japan,

I have a clearer idea of what comics are outside of Japan than you have of manga, as you’ve shown everyone ITT. Cause unlike you, I approach the medium with an open mind rather than constantly make East vs West threads on /ic/ to argue with strangers.

> Someone says that manga's writing isn't perfect
Literally not what you’ve been arguing this entire thread.

>>5252266
Eurocomics are pretty good, yeah. Unfortunately the faggots who make these threads don’t read those either.

>"clearly you've never heard of Cumlickugon The Legend Returns: Nippondaishi Taichi Kenshi Denshi Wee-Wuu Buu Fighter Z"

>saying this unironically while basing your entire opinion of western comics hinges on ignoring anything that isnt Marvel or DC, and ignoring the entirety of Europe.

Yeah you guys arent biased at all.

>>5253173
what about this first google image result when i typed in "ugly superhero comic" huh?

check, fucking, mate westaboo

>>5253177
Its really baffling to me how so many people in these threads have such little self-awareness.

Also the patrician choice is to pick and choose the best of both worlds.

And also Argentina.

>>5253173
>he put all his skill points into shitposting and none into reading comprehension
Such is the state of this sad OP.

What Is about anime and manga that makes so many /co/ fags seethe? Reading this thread Is fucking unreal lmao.

>This thread again
/co/ is my main board but if you wanted manga recs you could have just asked. On the correct board but still you could have asked.

>>5245879
This kind of thing is much rarer in manga than comics I feel. Manga pages generally use much larger panels and show less information on the page. American comics use bigger pages and also have many more panels on the page. It's not unusual to find a comic page with 20 panels on it, all with dialogue in them. I prefer manga and comics that take more of a manga-esque approach because it gives a lot more room to breathe and look at the art which is half the point. Plus any action can thrive better with large and varying panels that have as much space as they need to convey movement.

There, that's me taking this shitty bait.

>>5245801
>i think the real issue with western comics is just how difficult it is to actually discover an artist. i learn about new manga from the artists who draw them, and those artists frequently talk to each other and cross promote each other in their comics
Some comics artists do try this but you're right. It's difficult. I'd recommend checking out Image's new (not the Liefeld ones from the 90s) Prophet comics. Each one is sort of anthology with separate characters that different artists illustrate. It's several stories in the same universe running concurrently and each one has a different artist and they're all good and unique sci-fi. Outside of that example though I really don't know of many others. The same person who was in charge of Prophet, Brandon Graham, tried to make an anthology comics magazine featuring different artists but I don't think it did well. American comics are too defined by the primary genre which is capes and everything else gets sidelined too heavily and it means a lot of risks aren't taken in other genres.