/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>5238628
You mean literal fucking visual cognition? The thing you improve by fucking deawing?!
The thing that is literally actual science and improves your art?!?!?!?
Ffs d/ic/ks will look for any way to not draw

>>5238637
No, I am not talking about visual cognition I am talking about the ability to render objects in your mind. While this can be improved with drawing, it can be improved much quicker with focused practice. While some might say that this is an excuse to not draw it is so closely linked to art that I don't understand why there is so much hesitation and resentment towards any person that brings this up.

Also, I like how you saw the big word I used "pseudoscience" and couldn't take the time to mentally process what it actually meant due to it being far too many syllables for your mind to deconstruct.

Either engage with this thread with constructive criticism or go away.

>>5238637
>I forgot that I was going to try to stop making all my posts text walls to increase engagement in my threads to allow more people to engage with my ideas

No. Go fuck yourself, retard, and read the goddamn document I spent so much time on. It literally covers that in the fucking introduction, cunt

>>5238668
Anon you are retarded or beg or both
Go back to drawing

>>5238683
I know where you are coming from, but there is more to the story than just drawing. It seems to me that most artists focus on theory or just simple practice, but I feel there is a huge gap in artistic education when it comes to focusing on the mental cognition of drawing. I view the mind as the source of art, yet the mind is seemingly sidestepped in art education to focus on finding the right reference or the right tool with a practiced hand, but not nearly enough the mind: source of our means for creation. I understand that drawing is practice, but this is a different kind of practice that I wish more people would take seriously. There seems to be an unnecessary dogma against even bringing this up in conversation. Yes, the clarity of your perceptions in your mind can be honed and sharpened, and I don't understand the fight against trying to focus on training this skill.

I want to encourage people to engage with this for the changes it can have in changing your perception of the world and art itself, but I am not some hack promising the secret to artistic perfection. I just want for more people to realize this as a valid byway in artistic development.

I'm gonna read the doc later OP.

Are you familiar with the book Memory Drawing: Perceptual Training and Recall ?

Gurney talked about it a long time ago in a blog post.

Basically is a book with exercises aimed to be better at memorizing shapes and values.
Part of the process is also visualizing things in your head.
E.g.: see the shape in front of you for 30 sec. then put it away and try to visualize on paper for another 30 sec. and repeat.

>>5238637
relax retard

>>5238628
i need to see the art of the people who made these exercises to know if it actually works.
Especially because the exercises are just focused on things you can do to train visualization in your head, but not how to translate this onto the paper.

>>5238939
OP is a beginner, not sure why he made this thread.

Not Op is not a beg.

Even KJG said it.
While he served the army, he couldn't draw - but he did actually - you know how he explained it?
He said, he observed and imagined he drew the scene in his mind,

So yea, it is mental training but once you get comfortable i believe it will benefit your drawing-skills, i do it sometimes and will force myself to to it more often.

Have a nice day bruhs and bruhsistas.

>>5238858
It looks like a great resource!

Thanks for the tip-off. Documents like these are fantastic!

I found it here:
https://archive.org/details/133_20200605/009.jpg

>>5239495
But KJG said he did draw a lot while he was in the army? He said he drew people, buildings, tanks and guns a lot.

>>5239495
Gi is so impressive. I can see why he practices as much as he does. It’s really frustrating not being able to communicate what you’re seeing when you can see it so clearly in your mind. He is on another plane of existence when it comes to this stuff.

The reason why he is as good as he is is because of practice, but his genius is just fantastic. There is no better example of what a sharp mind can do for your art than KJG

>>5239823
Do you have any works you can supply?

Pic related he made at 17 years old

I'll read the docs. Just saying for people who dont like op for some reason, visualization and mental training has been show to increase skill and even physical strength. and its not like you stop drawing, you can do mental excercises in addition to drawing.

here's one on raw strength, but I had read some papers on skills too, I just can't find it now. I'll post it if I do.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/14998709/

Tulpa anon from first thread here, super nterestingg stuff OP! As someone with pretty weak visualization myself looking to improve it I'll be looking into your exercises for sure!

>>5240066
It's really cool to see you here! Feel free to use a trip if you post here again. I'm compiling more information and I'm probably going to try adding to the document or making a new revised edition after I'm done. I'd love to hear from you if you make any breakthroughs. Thanks for the appreciation!

>inviting not just tulpafaggotry, but tripfagottry as well
holy newfag

>>5240086
I do not endorse tulpas whatsoever. It was just something that I talked about with this guy a while back in a thread. The trip would just be to recognize him easier incase he ever wants to talk again in these threads I'm making. Lighten up. Nobody likes a tool

>>5239876
Visualization is a marvelous tool. The more people realize that the better.

That's a cool study. Any actual science to add to my pseudoscience bubble is just dandy. Please feel free to post more if you have the time. Thank you!

Went through your guide - i can sort of 'feel' a cube somewhere in my mind rotating around - the background behind it is harder to be aware of. But I don't really see it, it's more like a memory of seeing it or something. A very vague idea of a 3d cube. It's pretty strange.
When you get closed eye visuals is it in some... separate 'part' of your visual processing? Like a black box inside your head, separate from your actual eyes?

Also, I have visual snow too, coincidentally.

Started at 0 visualization, after 2 weeks at 2-3
its literally just recognizing patterns guys shits easy peasy

Im this anon and
>>5240661
this was me literally 2 weeks ago,
A few things to consider, have any of you ever heard of the idea of a tulpa? have you ever wondered what Monks spend all day with their eyes closed? literally practicing visualization, The concept of a Tulpa was originally created by monks who had visualized something so strongly that it literally manifested in their minds in front of them.

Now if you're at a 0, what can you do? You close your eyes and see nothing. So heres what youre going to do look at a really bright light, or if that doesnt work press your fingers on your eyeballs so that patterns start appearing.
close your eyes and describe those patterns, try to describe them, a ball? (pretty common) eyes? (also common since its the thing the brain is most trained to find). At first this going to be super difficult, and youre going to be constantly questioning if youre just reacting to light. But soon enough youll start seeing things that are definitely not just light, and more importantly theyll feel very real.

I struggle with making the things i want to appear, like i can visualize an apple or a building, but something like a face is very difficult. And just a couple days ago i left an art slump ive been in for about a month and a half

>>5240582
>Went through your guide - i can sort of 'feel' a cube somewhere in my mind rotating around - the background behind it is harder to be aware of. But I don't really see it, it's more like a memory of seeing it or something. It's pretty strange.

It really is a strange exercise, isn’t it? You’re in a great starting place if you can sense the shape. The more you work with it the more it will begin to define itself to you. I did not lie when I said that it took me months to first gain control over this. If you’re having trouble with the color taking priority of the form then focus on forming the latticework of the edges out of colored lines. Try to stick with one color to make it easier for yourself but it is only through endless repetition that you will begin to see results.

>When you get closed eye visuals is it in some... separate 'part' of your visual processing? Like a black box inside your head, separate from your actual eyes?

It’s literally like a little canvas in my mind that I can draw upon. I would say that my canvas appears to me in waking hours like the beam of a flashlight and it works like any oculus like a window into my mind capable of having innumerable pictures projected upon it. Depending upon my mental state it can be larger or smaller. In the deepest sleep it is my full visual field while some times it can be much smaller and sit right between my eyes on my forehead. In some ways it can be thought of as a “black box” but I don’t think that that is an appropriate visual. The more you train it the more your mind’s eye will appear like a window.

>Also, I have visual snow too, coincidentally.
That’s wild! What are all your symptoms? Do you also have palinopsia? Tinnitus? Spontaneous light? The bad night vision and light sensitivity? It’s a really pretty mild disorder for me, but it was kind of disconcerting when I couldn’t explain the symptoms. I didn’t even know that my visual snow was not normal!

>>5240678
Please do not encourage tulpas in this thread. It’s potentially harmful to people therefore I do not want it potentially harming people. If you want to talk about it talk about it somewhere else. It’s just not something that I want in these threads anymore. Forgive me.

>>5240661
That’s really great, anon. Keep up the good work!

>>5240678
Has that visualization training technique been helpful for you? Have you tried it or utilized it yourself? It’s something I can’t try myself so I would like as much information as possible just in case it’s worth suggesting in the future.

>>5240814
I have halos of light around bright lights like van gogh because of my Astigmatism in both eyes, I have decently bad tinnitus and pretty bad night visibility - that's when the snow is most obvious and bad. I remember the first time I realized that it wasn't normal to have visual snow/noise going constantly when you're in a dark room. I thought everybody had it like me.

>>5240678
Please don't press on your eyeballs or stare at bright lights, dumbass. I'd also say do any 'tulpamancy' at your own risk, like the OP says. I've experimented with it because I don't give a shit if I 'give myself a mental illness' - and you can stop the process if you just stop giving it attention, even years into attempting to form one. It's basically just giving attention to neurons in your head that simulate a personality. Plenty of writers have done it on accident without ill effects, and plenty of children have imaginary friends and nobody bats an eye. But still, do it at your own risk. It's also kinda cringe.

Sorry for shitting up the thread with cringy tulpa stuff. Still appreciate OP for making the guide and I'll definitely be trying more definite exercises to train my visualization skills. I'll try to keep you updated if these threads stick around, OP. Or I could always email you if you give up on making them.

>>5240893
>I realized that it wasn't normal to have visual snow/noise going constantly when you're in a dark room. I thought everybody had it like me.
When I was younger I remember having really good night vision. It is kind of wild looking back now realizing that I’m kind of blind in the dark. It’s kind of cool, though. I had a gf with Synesthesia and now I can show her up with my equally pointless brain disorder. For me, it’s the kind of thing that you kind of forget about. I’m glad I don’t have it too bad.

>>5240678 #
>Please don't press on your eyeballs or stare at bright lights, dumbass.
I’m glad I’m not the only one who thinks that’s kind of dumb. Maybe it works, though. Who knows? I’m willing to hear the guy out at the very least.

>I could always email you if you give up on making threads.
Feel free to do so anytime.

>>5240918
It works, but both things are damaging to your eyeballs.

>>5240946
That’s what I was thinking. I would think that something like pic related would be better, but I would have no way of knowing. I can’t suggest something like this without saying it’s completely out of my ass.

>>5238628
I’d be careful op, it seems like your experimenting with people more so then helping them. No one can tell you how that’ll end up.

just draw you retards

>>5241005
Closed eye visualization ain't going to do shit to you. It's just your fucking imagination, it isn't going to drive you insane.

>>5241005
I’m reading up on it through a book suggested earlier in the thread that’s proving to be a fascinating read.

https://archive.org/details/133_20200605/001.jpg

What I am doing is not remarkable but the technique is definitely my own.

It may not be scientific, but the old master’s followed their teachers not cognitive-behavioral studies. I can tell you that there is credence to it for I have seen results and I can also tell you that there is nothing to be worried about it. I’ve tried my best to provide surgeon general warnings in my document, but no terrible damage can be done unless a person actively tries to cause damage.

This really is nothing to fear. Try it for yourself and tell me if you find it dangerous (;

>>5241013
I’m guessing you have data and possibly experience to back your claim then, don’t worry I’ll be polite.

>>5241022
Pardon this man and his boldness.

This response, I hope, covers everything. It has both sources and, I hope again, a full response to your fears.

>>5241018

If you want to completely ignore it then so be it, but it is because of yourself and not due to my lack of trying that you keep that fear.

And yes, I realize that I forgot to give myself the name "OP" in that response. I knew it was going to happen eventually.

>>5238628
What's going on in that picture? What is everyone looking at?

>>5241028
It's art. Interpret it for yourself.

OP, I don't know if it's from practicing your visualizaiton exercises today or what, but I had kind of a breakthrough in my art today. I can see perspective much more clearly. I'll attribute it to you. Thanks.

>>5241222
That's so encouraging to hear. I'm really happy for you. Good job!

I'm glad if I helped you even if it was the smallest amount.

I dont really get this thread but heres what i do sometimes to train my visual memory.
>be bored waiting at train station or whatever
>pick random object/person/thing
>look at it for about 20 secs
>close eyes or look away and try to picture it in my head with as much detail possible
>when i hit a grey area im unsure of look back at the thing to see where i went wrong.
>repeat as many times as needed till i can picture every detail of it in my mind.
>ive learned to draw something without drawing

I unlocked direct drawing in my head, i'm waiting a while to really confirm and might becoming back to you guys (not OP)

>>5241296
what skilltree do i need to level up to unlock this perk?

>>5241326
i got cancer last year and all i could do - if i could do anything at all during chemo was drawing stuff in boxes.. figures, structures, objects. That doesn't sound like a very exotic take, i know, but everytime i felt better i was pretty devoted on even the smallest perspective issue that wasn't crystal clear in my head. So when i had trouble imagining the right angle of a plane on something, i excluded the plane and put it in a box.

I'm months past chemo now and feeling way better, it's easier for me now to try more demanding stuff, so i'm browsing through my artpose folder, study the pose once i fully understood in my mind where and how every dummybox for the body elements like pelvis, throaciccage etc. are positioned, aligned and tilted, and then i drew this shit in tall boxes as well, all the angles.

And i didn't do it the Krenz Cushart Style, i did everything in my mind, but what i did to always support me in perspective was ghosting in a default box, for the upper leg for instance, in neutral perspective, and then i drew the tilted, rotated box for the leg over it, because it was easier to imagine that way.

That is all pencil tho, but once i understand a structure, i can draw it 90% out of my head in any given perspective.

The ghosting thing helped alot, also learning more complicated but abstract structures like vertibraes. And of course mileage to a degree, but a lot of it is getting an understanding of things.

I tried it all before, drawing in my head, abstract visualisation practices, these might help some people, but i feel like it didn't do much for me.

to add to that, when attempting direct drawing i can "feel" most of the surrounding perspective boxes i usually draw, if not i can feel at least the dummy boxes.

>>5241296
It's all about the baby steps, anon. Gg
>>5241326
It's all about practice. The more you work on the closer it will get. Focus and practice are your friends.

>>5242273
how long/consistently did you practice?

>>5241537
I'm glad to find you passed chemo. I did the very same thing for a while working with cubes and stuff. I still need to work on anatomy.

I'm going to write a full review and critique of the exercises found in this book:

https://archive.org/details/133_20200605/059.jpg

but this boom has an exercise that sounds similar to how you are learning anatomy on page 52.

I think you've been practicing in a very similar way to the way I have been. Feel free to check back in in because I'm going to be sharing some of the more advanced exercises found in this book in a way that is more intuitive from my own exercises and more accessible to a wide audience.

It seems like you're really following the right path. Good job on implementing visualization into am actual drawing regiment. That is something that I definitely still need to work on.

>>5241554
I'm a bit confused on this post, but it sounds like you've begun to gain a more intuitive perspective, which is definitely cool. I know I still struggle a lot when translating it to paper.

>>5242361
>did
Every day whenever I have time to myself to focus I am exploring my imagination. I had major breakthroughs after the first few months of exercises. Going on years my breakthroughs are less obvious but I am still progressing. I'm pretty obsessive, but it takes both an obsession with practicing and an obsession with challenging yourself to improve.

Every journey is different. My timeline won't be the same as mine, but it could look similar. For you, just trying to focus on holding observations in your mind could be enough for you to develop a rudimentary construction ability. If you're past that point already, then my exercises could also be a good launching point. The truth is you won't know what you can do until you put the time in. Just sit down and see where your mind takes you.

>>5238668
Post your work you low IQ tard. Instead of posting all this pseudoscience shit with reddit spacing you could be drawing

>>5243408
Posting his work isn't going to accomplish anything. Having an amazing imagination isn't going to magically make his work amazing. Are you stupid? It's just a thread discussing techniques to improve visualization, he isn't saying it magically turns you into kim jung gi.

>>5238628

>>5243615
All of those things are true. This isn’t a draw thread. This isn’t pretending to be a draw thread. What point are you even trying to make?

>>5240957
this is called the ganzfield experiment, no idea on its accuracy but anecdotally ive heard it does something

>>5244262
I have no idea if it would help at all. As I said in the post this is purely conjecture and I pulled it all out of my ass. That being said, if someone was desperate for any way to form a breakthrough of some kind with no visual ability whatsoever, I would love to hear if it would help at all and test the validity.

I personally have never tried it but when I was younger I kind of wanted to. I don’t really see a point anymore, though.

I don't have time to read the doc now, but I'll check it out later. Thanks op

>>5244937
You're welcome. Feel free to share any thoughts or comments that you have when you finish it!

>>5241006

I’m not a great resource on hot to apply visualization techniques to art, but this book has a lot of exercises designed to do just that.

If you’re looking for actual applications for this skill this is where you should look.

https://archive.org/details/133_20200605/009.jpg

>>5238628
Bumping this thread again. I'm probably going to make a new thread tomorrow if I have the time.

>>5247629
New thread, what for?

>>5247910
To add more information to the thread and because this thread is dying.

>>5248484
It's taking me longer than expected to compile all the information I need to make a new thread, so I'm going to bump this thread to keep it alive long enough to link the new thread when it comes out. Thank you for your patience. All good things come with time

>>5243418
so why the fuck is it here if it wont help drawing skills

>>5248484
Threads take forever to die here. If you're going to make a new one at least delete this one first bro.

You could just add info in posts inside the thread and just put it up where you want it next time.

>>5249586
Because it applies to drawing but it won’t necessarily make your drawing immediately better. I don’t want people to confuse what are essentially two different skills.

>>5249600
I’m going to work on it today. A thread will die after 12 hours of no activity here. That’s not that long if the post you want to make takes multiple hours and multiple days to write.

This might not be the best place to post this high-effort long-form stuff, but I want to add to the community so I have to work with this short-term system.

>>5250131
It's off topic show us how you applied it to drawing or stop making these schizophrenic threads. You're definitely NGMI because you don't even try to draw. You can't just think your way into being Kim Jung Gi you know?

>>5250370
Read the linked book from the archive it provides reasoning tangentially relevant to what OP advises

>>5250370
What is 15-30 minutes a day of practicing.
No one at any point ever suggested doing this instead of drawing. It is a complementary exercise.

>>5251356
you will never be kim junkie

Just checking with the people that have been doing the exercises -- have you been seeing any improvements?

How difficult are the exercises for you?

How do I make the images stay still? I can't hold them still for more than usually 10-20 seconds

>>5238628
you guys are next level retarded.
I'm serious. this is 5g causes coronavirus levels of stupid.

>>5252559
I'll give it to you straight. When you draw stuff in your mind (especially 3D object 2D is a bit simpler) you won't be able to hold stuff "still". If you want them that way then you will have to draw them on paper.

It really comes down to the meditative aspects of visualization. Your mind will wander, but the key is to roll with it while asserting your control. Every time your mind tries to wander, just let it happen but gently bring your focus back to the task at hand.

At the end of the day, you don't have a computer in your head you have a brain, so you're going to have to work with it. Trying to hold the image completely still is working against your brain... just surf the waves!

>>5252554
I'm struggling with seeing all the faces of the box at once. I can only see 3 faces clearly at the same time and when I try to pay attention to the others the ones I was seeing previously start to fade. I can see the whole box in a way but would not call this clear vision.

>>5252683
I would suggest not focusing too much on the faces as much as trying to render the whole form. Even if it isn't clear or just looks blobby just keep turning it and it will start to get clearer. It's all about practice and it seems like you're at a great starting place to work from.