/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

Some western / indie publishers that seem to have a decent readership and are tolerant of or specifically cater to Manga:

Saturday AM ( https://www.saturday-am.com/ )
> Digital indie magazine, seems to be on the up-and-up
> Open submissions for long-form series; also distributes series currently being published elsewhere.
> Regularly publishes one-shots, making it a good potential outlet for already-finished work.

Noir Caesar ( https://www.noircaesar.com/ )
> Focuses on black (specifically African-American) content, but seems willing to publish anyone good enough.
> Seemingly series-based only.
> No "magazine" style updates; series are updated on their own schedule.
> Seems less regular than Saturday AM, but also seems larger in terms of readership.

Oni Press ( https://onipress.com/ )
> Technically indie, but at this point large enough by comic standards to be mentioned in the same breath as other publishers.

Antarctic Press ( https://antarctic-press.myshopify.com/ )
> Longtime large-indie publisher of OEL / manga-esque books.
> Seemingly taking submissions at present if http://www.antarctic-press.com/html/submissions.php is anything to go on.

Yen Press ( https://yenpress.com/ )
> Started out as a small indie publisher of original / Korean material, and has grown reasonably popular since.
> As of 2016, it is also one of the western arms of the Kadokawa Corporation's publishing apparatus, with Kadokawa owning a 51% stake.
> They are known to publish original material, and editorial inquiries can apparently be sent to yenpress@yenpress.com.

Viz Media / Viz Originals ( https://www.viz.com/originals )
> *The* western manga publisher.
> Currently in the exploratory stages of setting up an English label.
> Submissions are open and several books have been announced. However, progress on the label seems to be moving very slowly.
> Still might be worth a shot anyway.

Current Contests and Opportunities:

https://www.clipstudio.net/promotion/comiccontest/en/

International Comic/Manga Schools Contest 2021
>YOU MUST BE A STUDENT TO ENTER THIS CONTEST.
>This is a manga, comic, and illustration contest open to students worldwide. Winners are eligible for cash prizes, digital creation software, pen tablets, and chances to be featured in the media too! The contest is also an opportunity to have your work judged and critiqued by professional creators and boost your skills. There are many categories to choose from, and many opportunities to win prizes! We are looking forward to seeing your entries.
>Contest theme: Admiration
>Participant School Registration Nov 10 (Tues), 2020 ~ April 20 (Tues), 2021 9:00 (GMT)
>Work Submission Period Jan 12 (Tues) ~ April 29 (Thurs), 2021 9:00 (GMT)
>Winner Announcement Early July 2021

How (You) can help /mmg/:

> Know about a contest or a publishing opportunity? TAG THE OP and post a link.
> Have a new resource? TAG THE OP and link / mention it for inclusion.
> Have a link / DL for a mentioned resource? TAG THE OP and mention what you're supplying a link for.
> SCREENSHOT / PASTEBIN effortposts that help you for posterity.

Changelog:

> Added naokiurasawa.com to the resources list.
> Added Deijieshi no Bunpou to the resources list. Please note that right now this release is IN FULL JAPANESE and also DOES NOT HAVE A PERMANENT LINK. Translations or permanent uploads would be HIGHLY APPRECIATED. As of the creation of this thread, there are 24 DAYS LEFT TO DOWNLOAD THIS RESOURCE.

> Added Yen Press to the publisher list.

Enjoy the new resources, anons. Keep up the hard work.

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

>>5202956
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Did Digital G-Pen Issues Anon ever get their stuff figured out?

>>5202963
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

Is there a trick to inking black hair with highlights with a pen thats not a g pen

thanks for the very extensive OP. I love this thread

>>5203401
You're very welcome anon, happy to serve.

>>5203057
What specifically are you asking about? Your question is kind of unclear.

>>5203057
use brushpen?

Imma earn money with the hentais

would you read a milf-themed battle manga with themes like dedication to motherhood/empty nest syndrome?

>>5206064
I already read Wombs so why not?

>>5206095
>Wombs
from the summary I'm reading, this manga seems like a joke concept played 100% seriously.

Page

>>5206064
that sounds... actually interesting

>>5206064
that actually gave me an idea for something even better

>>5206904
my issue right now is that I don't have a good idea for the setup/story. I also fear creating a world/power system only to use it on a very limited character type/story themes may be odd. creating those things to use on a variety of characters makes more sense.

>>5207327
this is how stuff like redo of a healer is made

>>5206790
niiiceee man, very nice

>>5202956
is she poopin?

>>5203057
brush

>>5207662
dude, don't create a setting and then the manga. most manga publish one short chapter and then start building up things from there. they literally make it up as they go, which explains how all manga kinda deflate after the eight volume/first important arc

>>5209182
Some manga are planned up to the first big arc and then are forced to continue due to their success. Dragon Ball, Jojo, etc.

what program do you use for manga making?
I'm a photoshop painter but line art is quite annoying to make on that program.
I know Manga Studio is a good one any other software I should consider?

>>5209182
>dude, don't create a setting and then the manga.
I hope this is sarcastic, seeing as it's literally one of the major shortcomings of Shonen Jump "built to run forever by the seat of their pants" style manga. Manga with a shorter runtime or a more structured development (Akira, Nausicaa, Made In Abyss, etc) make worldbuilding and adherence to rules an essential part of their operations.

>>5209445
CSP is pretty much the gold standard for comics. It was made for it.

>>5209445
>>5210130
For clarification, just in case someone reading this might not know, CSP and Manga Studio are the same program.

>>5209182
True, but you just get mediocre or downright bad stories that most manga falls under.

>>5209180
my friends are convinced she has IBS after a couple chapters of her making these kinds of faces.

>>5209182
>dude don't plan anything out first it's what most manga do
>which is explains why they all become shit
you're a fucking dipshit my guy. terrible advice.

>>5209445
CSP BABY, industry standard, literally the only program on the market that isn't fucking the entire thing with each update. plus it goes on sale 4-6 times a year.

Speaking of settings and plots, how long have you guys been thinking about yours? Mine has been in my mind for 6 years and has changed a whole lot. I'm learning to draw good fighting scenes right now and hoping to release the first chapter before the end of the year

>>5211763
have you thought about making short stories first so you could hone your writing skills before starting your main project? I think thats a good idea if you haven't. I did that and I ended up creating multiple worlds with recurring characters while still keeping in mind my main world-building passion project

>>5211763
The plot I'm working on is an idea I've had for years but could never properly convey because my writing and art skills weren't honed enough to tackle such a project yet.

It's basically a case of now or never for me because I know that if I don't tackle it someone else will and I'll be kicking myself for all of eternity for not gritting my teeth and making something out of this idea.

>>5211763
Six years of *dedicated* work? I mean, you should have a lot to show for it, even if its only writing and brainstorming.

>>5211763
I started doing a lot of the thinking after my first chapter but had a general idea of where I wanted to go before hand. I recently shook the entire thing up but changing the final boss character to someone more interesting. I spend a lot of time thinking of content that I wont get to for a couple years.

>>5212545
>It's basically a case of now or never for me because I know that if I don't tackle it someone else will and I'll be kicking myself for all of eternity for not gritting my teeth and making something out of this idea.
What exactly is the idea? If you're this worried about someone else taking it and rolling with it, that sort of raises the question of whether it's really worth doing. Not only will someone have to come up with basically the same idea that you have already, they'll have to execute it in basically the same way. Do you know how many retellings there are in popular media of classic myths and stories? If there's room for multiple retellings of the King Arthur myth across literally every form of media mankind has ever created, there's probably room for whatever it is you've planned and a few things passingly similar to it.

>>5209445
CSP because of the stabilizer
>>5211968
I did think of doing that, and I might do it if I'm not confident enough of my main project
>>5213627
The story is entirely done, and the major events have been decided. Now I'm trying to flesh out the characters as much as possible

Plot Archetypes in Manga:

I’ve beeb watching some very interesting lectures by Brandon Sanderson on storytelling lately. And in the plot section, he broke down various plot archetypes commonly used in story.

For example, his own Mistborn is a Heist plot, wrapped in a fantasy “defeat the evil empire plot” with an Apprentice and Master, and Romance plots tied to it.

Here’s a breakdown I found online that kinda summarizes it:

https://site.sbmorrison.com/2020/10/31/plot-archetypes/

I’ll post the link to the lecture later, but this got me thinking, what are some common plot archetypes in Anime and Manga?

Note that I don’t mean tropes or cliches, but rather a mechanical structure that can be seen throughout various works, with similar beats. I’m sure you all know of the Hero’s Journey as an example.

Off the top of my head, I can think of:

Tournament Plot
YYH, Dragonball, Baki, HxH Heaven’s Arena, etc...
>various fighters participate in some sort of martial arts tournament
>sometimes to get a mcguffin
>halfway through, or before the end, things go horribly bad
>hero defeats the main antagonist force after paying a price

Rescue Arc
Bleach, One Piece (a few times actually), etc...
>an ally of the MC leaves or is taken captive by the antagonists
>he gathers a group of friends and they head into their territory
>the group gets split up during their mission, and they fight powerful foes
>the main hero then confronts the main antagonist, and rescues his friend/lover/etc...

You guys got more?

>>5215736
>HxH Heaven’s Arena
Dunno why people always bring this up. It's nothing like a typical tournament arc, in fact it's barely an arc at all. It's just a device for the characters to be introduced to Nen and have a couple of fights in a low-risk environment. I'd almost say the fact that it's set up to be a tournament arc but then immediately abandoned once the characters got what they came for is the point of it.

>>5216002
Just because you subvert it doesn’t mean it isn’t using the exact same story mechanics to set it up and progress through it.

Actually compare it to other tournament arcs in what it does the same rather than different and you’ll realize it’s not that dissimilar. When writing a story, you want to focus on what everyone is doing the same, because therein lies your necessary story mechanics.

>>5216044
>Just because you subvert it doesn’t mean it isn’t using the exact same story mechanics to set it up and progress through it.
It doesn't, though.
A tournament arc introduces a bunch of competitors and pits them against each other, forming a narrative of consecutive battles and tension as the weaker opponents are whittled down until the protagonists are pitted against the strongest. Variations within this theme are permitted but generally the structure is pretty solidly defined.
Heavens Arena throws some nobodies in for Gon & Killua to get clowned on by then turn around and use their newfound knowledge of nen on, Hisoka gets one fight with another nobody to demonstrate some more aspects of nen, then Gon gets his fight with Hisoka and immediately dips the fuck out. The only relation it has to a tournament arc is that it's takes place in a dedicated 1v1 bloodsport arena. There's no brackets, no wondering who's going to be pitted against who, no real showcase of varied styles of fighting (well there's some but it's not really the focus and it's really used to demonstrate that there's a right way and a wrong way to use nen) and no real introduction of any characters or conflicts other than what leads directly into Yorkshin, since everyone that matters in that arc was already present other than the teacher guy and his student (both of whom never show up again).
It doesn't serve the same narrative purpose of a tournament arc and only plays with it insofar as it expects the reader to think it's going to be more of a thing than it is. Basically, it's not a real tournament arc, because the story doesn't linger on it. In that sense, it is a subversion of the tournament arc, but mostly because it isn't one.

>>5216075
>because the story doesn't linger on it.
But that can be said about just about EVERY single arc in HxH barring the chimera ant arc. Most arcs in HxH are largely unresolved. YorkNew is a Revenge plot, that switches gears into a Rescue Plot halfway through, and then just gets dropped and put on standby for half the story.

Greed Island is resolved, but the entirety of it didn't really follow any real kind of plot structure. It had a training arc in between, but the overarching plot as far as I remember was resolved rather suddenly when the mug at the start was made to be the big bad.

Chimera Ant was phenomenal, but its structure is actually that of a heist.

And so on... HxH as a manga is rather experimental in how its written. It's Togashi taking off the reigns and just doing whatever comes to him with no restrictions. Sometimes it's subversive, sometimes it's unsatisfying though. A lot of arcs just tend to end sometimes when Togashi feels bored of them, which can be said for Heaven's Arena, just the same as several others (most notably YorkNew). That said, the set ups for both absolutely promised "the tournament" and "the revenge plot." Look at how they're constructed narratively, even if they're subverted.

>>5216094
>But that can be said about just about EVERY single arc in HxH barring the chimera ant arc
>Greed Island is resolved, but the entirety of it didn't really follow any real kind of plot structure. It had a training arc in between, but the overarching plot as far as I remember was resolved rather suddenly when the mug at the start was made to be the big bad.

Hunter Exam, Greed Island and Chimaera Ant are all pretty well realized arcs, and none of them end in an anticlimax (structurally speaking, that is). Greed Island's main deal, collecting the cards to meet the creators of the game and thus find more info on Ging, was fully delivered on with no catch or subversion.
For some reason people just feel the need to classify the brief detours between major arcs as arcs in and of themselves, which is the part I take issue with. I mean shit, the Zoldyck Estate "arc" basically just feels like Togashi was stalling to work out what he was going to do next. It wasn't a true story arcs with a beginning then a rise and finally a climax (something which I admit Heaven's Arena actually does have), it was essentially just a slightly more elaborate errand for our characters to have interactions with the world and cast with. Like a quest in an RPG or something (which Greed Island is clearly lampooning, by the way).

I like thinking about HxH, it's a very interesting work to dissect, both in how it's written and in its visual style. I think the best way to describe what it does is it toys with structure and genre. It has more typical set-ups and payoffs, but it also has anticlimax, and subversion.

>>5214129
I'm not worried when it comes to the idea. It's an idea that's definitely been done before plenty of times over the years in various forms. It's my take on deconstructing the monster taming genre and the cliches that are associated with it.

I kept putting the project off for various reasons and I know that if I keep dawdling then someone else will step up to the plate and tell a story that I couldn't because I refused to get my shit together. That's what I'm worried about more than anything else.

bump

>>5216094
in what way is chimera ant a heist

>>5216185
>It's an idea that's definitely been done before plenty of times over the years in various forms.
>I know that if I keep dawdling then someone else will step up to the plate and tell a story that I couldn't because I refused to get my shit together. That's what I'm worried about more than anything else.

These two things still seem contradictory to me. What *exactly* are you afraid of? That someone will come along and do the idea better? People have already done the idea, so you're banking on yourself being capable of doing the idea better in the first place. If you wholeheartedly believe the former is possible, I'm not sure why you would be worried about the latter.

It seems to me like you're afraid of something else, perhaps of just doing your own idea poorly.

>>5218022
The structure of a heist plot (Oceans Eleven, Italian Job, etc...), is as follows:

>gather a team of specialists
>make a plan, where each person must fulfill a unique job
>key to the last part is that there’s a sort of problem solving element in the build up where if you can fox or solve this, then the plan falls into place
>infiltrate X place
>things go horribly wrong
>recontextualize the plan and adapt on the fly

It also usually has a secondary plot archetype of Master and Apprentice where the new guy has to learn something important for the plan to work (Ocean’s Eleven).

One good example of where this plot archetype is used in a non-heist film is Avengers Endgame. As per the writer’s own admission.

Chimera Ant uses the exact same structure, except it laters it with several others as well.

>>5211763
>how long have you guys been thinking about yours?
Hmmm about 6 months maybe.

>>5212545
Ideas are worthless. The single most valuable thing in storytelling is the skill of the writer. A good writer can take the worst idea and turn it into something incredible, whereas you could give the best idea in the world to a shitty writer, and it’ll still be ass. Ideas are overrated. Stop worrying about ideas, start focusing on your execution.

-Theme
-Characters
-Plot
-Setting

YES in that order. Theme being what YOU bring to the table on something that may have been done before, and characters and plot being more rigid. Make sure you master and fully understand how to execute those two (Characters and Plot). Setting, while being the least important is the one you can be most creative with.

People usually get this backwards, and start with their setting, thinking it’s the most important part cause it’s what makes their story unique (when people say idea they typically mean setting, they sometimes mean plot - as in, these super cool scenes I’ve seen in my head that happen after 100s of chapters, not the actual sequence of events or overarching story), they don’t worry too much about characters or plot, thinking it’ll fall in place once the setting is done, never bothering to fully understand how to write characters or structure a plot. And they never even think about Theme. Not once does the message or moral of the story cross their minds, despite theme being the glue that holds a story together.

bump lol

>>5219297
I'd put setting over plot and equal to characters, because in all the best stories I've read the setting was treated as a character and it was the interaction of character and setting that manifested and drove the plot.

>>5206790
jized in my jeans

I want to create yaoi, so this is up my alley I think.

>>5219297
Was actually going to post a whole essay talking about >>5221269's exact point but they got to it first and much more simply.

This is particularly the case for sci-fi settings. It's the interactions between character and environment that drive the theme and plot forward, especially when the environment is acting as a critique or a contrast of some element that involves the theme of the story.

>>5219297
>>5221269
I think in my case theme is what I should focus on first and then use that as the foundation for everything else considering the subject matter of my story.

>>5218633
>It seems to me like you're afraid of something else, perhaps of just doing your own idea poorly.
Now that you've pointed that out I think that's most likely where my fears lie. If that's the case then the next step for me will be telling my doubts to shut the fuck up and getting on with what I want to create.

Thanks for your thoughts and advice, anons. It's been really helpful!

>>5221269
>because in all the best stories I've read the setting was treated as a character and it was the interaction of character and setting that manifested and drove the plot.
That’s how you should write setting, yes. But setting doesn’t have a character arc or a want, so it doesn’t ACTUALLY drive the plot. It just comes across that way because good writing is about masking your plot structure and surprising your reader. If you take a step back you’ll see they’re still working with fairly simple plot structures and archetypes.

If you gave some examples I’d be better able to address this.

>inb4 Tolkein

>>5221351
Yes, it’s all interconnected, but you work on setting last, that’s how you make it interconnected in the first place. You utilize setting in service of the story, not the other way around.

If you just sat and worldbuilt this entire world down to the smallest detail, you’d never start writing an actual story.

>>5221447
>I think in my case theme is what I should focus on first and then use that as the foundation for everything else considering the subject matter of my story.
This is how you should do it. I hate to appeal to authority, but don’t take my word for it. Robert McKee, John Turby, Brian Sanderson, etc... they all say the exact same thing. Especially if you’re a beginner, focus on the fundamentals and write. You’ll understand better how more experienced writers do things once you yourself have experience. Don’t let other beginners distract you into doing things backwards because they perceive things incorrectly due to their limited understanding of storytelling.

>>5221614
>Yes, it’s all interconnected, but you work on setting last, that’s how you make it interconnected in the first place. You utilize setting in service of the story, not the other way around.
>If you just sat and worldbuilt this entire world down to the smallest detail, you’d never start writing an actual story.
Heavily disagree. I start by worldbuilding first and never have any problems. If anything, worldbuilding first can help you determine what kinds of characters and themes are best supported by the overall package. There are multiple points of entry and they all shape each other. This is a very strange and overly strict manner of writing; not knowing when you should stop working on one thing and start working on the other is more the fault of the writer than the fault of the approach. Many people get stuck on philosophical thematic wank or how cool their characters are or how tragic or complicated their backstories are and never write anything either.

>>5221624
I mean, you start wherever you like. But people connect to characters and their stories, not to a setting. Most people don’t like reading encyclopedia entries fir fantasy worlds. Setting is just the “cool” aspect of a story. Also, more often than not, worldbuilding is the trap rookie writers fall into, not anything else.

I’ve yet to come across an example of someone getting stuck with “look how cool my character is.” Because story is how you express a character. Even if they just write a bunch of short stories about their one character that amount to nothing, they’ve still accomplished a lot more than the guy who’s been worldbuilding 50 million fantasy races and kingdoms in this expansive world that will never see the light of day in story.

>>5221659
>I’ve yet to come across an example of someone getting stuck with “look how cool my character is.”
Most art / "OC" accounts on twitter, tumblr, and elsewhere.

>I mean, you start wherever you like. But people connect to characters and their stories, not to a setting. Most people don’t like reading encyclopedia entries fir fantasy worlds. Setting is just the “cool” aspect of a story.
This doesn't really have anything to do with what I'm saying. I'm saying that there are multiple points of entry when it comes to the development of a work. The idea that one *must* start with one particular avenue is needlessly restrictive. It's like saying that one *must* start drawing a figure with the head, when in reality the issue is not one of starting point but one of work distribution. Indeed, starting at different points can even create different results.

>>5221671
>Most art / "OC" accounts on twitter, tumblr, and elsewhere.
We’re talking about storytelling not, art.

>I'm saying that there are multiple points of entry when it comes to the development of a work.
I’m not arguing about points of entry, I’m addressing points of development. You can literally start however. You can mash two concepts together, you can work off a scene, you can think of a cool magic system, etc... but once you’ve got that idea down Abd ACTUALLY want to write the story, you go: THEME > CHARACTERS > PLOT > SETTING

What is your story about?
Who are your characters, and what do they want in a way that embodies this moral?
How do you create conflict and tension in order to drive the story forward in a dramatic manner?
What obstacles stand in their way? What setting aspects help them? What is unique about your story from a visual aspect?

That’s how you do it. Start backwards, and your pyramid will be lopsided to cater to your overdeveloped world. The story won’t be interesting.

>>5221614
>But setting doesn’t have a character arc or a want, so it doesn’t ACTUALLY drive the plot.
Let me clarify a bit more, including how I define setting. It's not strictly worldbuilding and creating a sandbox to play in, setting is also how the character acts on the world, and is acted upon by the world in turn. This creates a plot. Without having a setting, a character is basically a design in a void with some traits on paper that can't really be expressed besides maybe in a non-story format like a Q&A. Characters cannot have an arc, or desire wants and have needs, without a setting, because settings manifest wants, needs, conflicts and arcs.
It's like a symbiotic relationship- setting drives the characters, characters manipulate the setting, the back and forth interaction creates a plot.

>>5221778
>setting is also how the character acts on the world, and is acted upon by the world in turn.
This is plot. Not setting. Setting refers to the place and details of your story. Things like location, culture, power system, etc... that’s setting. How this interacts with your characters is literally plot.

Let me explain what I mean:

>my story is about a guy who delivers Pizza
Ok, what does he want?
>he wants a better life for himself but is held back by limiting beliefs
Ok, so his character arc will be about learning to overcome those beliefs. What are some obstacles standing in his way?
>his job keeps him busy, his boss is fed up with him and wants to fire him, girlfriend maybe encourages him...
Etc... notice how we’re still talking about the general sequence of events, and other characters?
The details of the world are not yet important, but you work those out once you figure out your story.

But contrary to what you’re saying, characters interact with OTHER characters far more than they interact with the world.

>ok so what is the story actually about? Is it a coming of age story? A rags to riches story? Does he become a superhero?

Once you’ve worked this out, you can literally transpose it into any setting you like. But given the story and theme, a setting that compliments what you’re trying to say is best. For example:

>story is rags to riches about a pizza delivery boy with limiting beliefs
>maybe society imposes that limiting belief system
>maybe there’s a strong caste system with no upward mobility and through his character arc not only does he overcome himself, but also the world.

Do you see how everything else influenced the setting?

Theme > character > plot > setting

You only do as much setting as your story needs.

>>5221720
>but once you’ve got that idea down Abd ACTUALLY want to write the story, you go: THEME > CHARACTERS > PLOT > SETTING
But anon, there's literally no reason to do it this way specifically. If you can start wherever you want, then it's entirely possible that by the time you're ready to write your story you've done all this in a completely different order. If "writing the story" and "preparing to write the story" are two separate processes as you have laid them out here, then there is absolutely no reason why you cannot "prepare to write the story" in whatever manner you choose.

All that matters is that you know when to stop. And, like I said, people can get stuck on any stage that they just like too much.

>We’re talking about storytelling not, art.
These people want to attach stories to their art anon. They just never do it because they love talking about or writing "needless" character interactions or details, just like people get caught up writing "needless" setting information.

>>5211763
Depends on the story. Some have been around for years. Some have been around for a few months at most.

The thing to keep in mind though is that the amount of time you've had an idea or have spent working on one doesn't necessarily indicate its quality. Sometimes stories are better when they're simpler and haven't been added to repeatedly for years and years.

>>5202929
Since we're talking storytelling, how do you guys think a tragedy ero manga would do? I'm thinking something that starts off shit, gets heartwarming and spicy, and then spirals out of control into a spicy taco bell shits tragic kind of ending.

Do you guys know of any artists that have successfully done stories like that? The closest thing I can think of to that kind of storytelling is Domestic Girlfriend but I don't want an incest dumpster fire, you know?

>>5223379
Metamorphosis

>>5223379
Being John Malkovich

i want to draw manga where do i start?

>>5224768
Araki's book in the op.

>>5221950
Different anon here, I was having a bit of writing block and just wanted to say this post helped. Thanks.

>>5223433
Nice, that's the kind of shit I'm trying to do

>>5224455
My favorite tragedy manga honestly

>>5223379
You'd have to be good at writing believable relationships and balance out. Personally I don't think it could work, since every erotic 'tradegy' I've ever seen has either relied on constant edgy misery porn or sudden 'shocking' twists that fell flat. You can't just made an ero and pull a sad ending out of your ass. I think another good idea would be to make your plot groudned, not exactly realistic, just not a reader-insert fantasy with a boo hoo have a sad cum bby ending. These are just my thoughts.

The tragedy that comes from the destruction of something real hits way harder than the destruction of a fantasy.

for those of you who plan to release your work for free as digital, what format are you using? a zip folder with each page as a separate image to be to be read in an image viewer? a comic book archive? pdf? something else? how do you plan to handle two page spreads, if your work contains them?

>>5226078
does something like this need to be downloadable to a user?

i was going to just set up my own website to host the pages i upload and make it act sort of like a more personalized mangadex.

>>5226083
i prefer to read comics with sumatra pdf, so that's how i want to distribute mine

a website is a good idea i suppose, for the ad revenue, but not my style personally

so I have always designed characters and stories inspired by shonen and anime in general. So I spent a lot of time designing the main character based on their hair and outfit. But I have been in a sort of slump lately with ideas and I am starting to wonder if I should look more at the sort of things I liked years ago before I got caught up in the whole anime craze. I found my influences used to be primarily nonhuman/humanoid characters like ninja turtles or transformers or xenomorphs, but this is such a major paradigm shift in my design process that I am afraid to go down this rabbit hole.

>>5226078
I'd just make some pdfs and epubs. If people really want individual images they can easily get them out of a pdf anyways.

>>5226786
People are retarded and have trouble figuring out shit as simple as a zip file, it's best to make it as easy as possible. If you can't host your own reader, or host it on a pre-existing reader, then put it out as a DDL with both the individual images AND a pdf AND a cbz. Ideally, do all of the above. Make it as easy and convenient as possible for as many people to read it.

>>5225223
Good input, I'll watch out for that stuff and keep your advice in mind. I'm not into edgy crap, and I don't want to just make porn and then pull a sad shitty ending out of nowhere.

>You'd have to be good at writing believable relationships and balance out.
I think I'll be okay there but I'll make sure to have people check it for me and make sure everything seems realistic.

>The tragedy that comes from the destruction of something real hits way harder than the destruction of a fantasy.
That's more of what I'm aiming for anyways, hopefully I can accomplish it.

>>5226821
I'd personally just host them on my own website and offer downloads for a bunch of different formats. I just think pdf and epub would be like the bare minimum and easiest for most people to figure out.

>>5226836
The thing is, hosting it on every possible site you can maximizes exposure. Having a personal site is great, but it nobody will see it there.

If my end goal is to make colored comics for webtoons, should I practice making colored stuff now or should I get good at monochrome work? (probably a dumb question) I just find that monochrome stuff has a lot more values/details, with hatching and stuff while if I jump to colors I end up with very simple lineart and flat colors and I don't know how to add more nuance or details to it. So maybe working in monochrome and making monochrome work really well would transfer over to making good colored works too?

>>5227483
Dumb question, you should practice the kind of work you want to make. If you think your values suck in color, then shit bro start practicing fixing your values in color.
Apart from the fundamental skills in drawing, no, drawing in monochrome won't make you any better at making colored work. Stuff like anatomy and perspective will improve of course, but you can't improve at coloring without practicing coloring.

>>5227498
yeah that's what I thought.

>>5226837
So you post it other places and let people know they can head to your site for downloads. It's not rocket science

>>5227741
That's what I'm suggesting.

>>5227560
I love both his books.

bump!

>>5227829

>>5209182
>dude, don't create a setting and then the manga. most manga publish one short chapter and then start building up things from there. they literally make it up as they go, which explains how all manga kinda deflate after the eight volume/first important arc
Don't you love how one arc in manga is like eight volumes or well over 1600 pages. Wish there was a book analyzing manga storytelling elements more extensively...

McCloud states that the use of atmosphere in manga is more conciliatory towards aspect-to-aspect panel development. It's further away from plot and action-to-action storytelling

>>5229616
>>5229624
>>5229626
I think this stuff is part of the reason why Japanese people love Euroshit and why Euros love Japanese shit. These kinds of transitions and "wandering eye" moments have been a mainstay of Euro cinema for a century at this point and the visual language is very similar. The two areas are likely very accustomed to these conventions already and have an easier time riffing on them.

>>5229632
And as soon as I type this you >>5229630 post about it. Shouldn't be surprised McCloud mentions it.

>>5229635
Yes the atmospheric power of Japanese manga is reminiscent of European filmmaking, particularly New Wave and the Italian Giallo style. It has such a resonant atmospheric quality which gets as much out of its Themes as possible. It's innately psychological, and often philosophic without having anything direct to say.

The best example is that there are a lot of giallo or semi-giallo films that surprise you because of their subtle references and allusions to European painting... it's a thematic blend that not every viewer could enjoy, but the more you know the canon of Western Art, it manages to speak to you. Baudrillard speaks about the importance of conceptions in European life, and the importance of realizing things in the material world for Americans. Funny that the same issues are illustrated for us in graphic novels.

>>5229653
not merely aspect-to-aspect, but also some brilliant moment-to-moment panel transitions are present in manga. In Ito's CAT DIARY, we see a Western showdown take place between a trio of cats.

Many mangaka talk about being inspired by Hitchcock and DePalma, the two directors who have mastered both American and European styles of directing...Scorsese for example is less plot-based so opt for less reliance on American action-to-action direction. I feel like this double-Western influence is probably easier to comprehend in Urasawa than Araki's JoJo.

>>5229653
I’ve used these exact terms to describe panel transition ITT before and people have been woefully confused. Thank you for posting these. They should be mandatory reading for everyone ITT.

>>5229710
As it turns out, niggas don't read.

Aren't there any JP manga contests that allow english speakers?

>>5229710
>I’ve used these exact terms to describe panel transition ITT before and people have been woefully confused. Thank you for posting these. They should be mandatory reading for everyone ITT.
Yeah I think 'Understanding Comics' was more popular than 'Making Comics', even though the latter is infinitely more entertaining. That seems inevitable though, since there are more readers than practitioners. If he ever makes a book exclusively on manga and ameri-manga, that would probably be even more exhaustive.

>>5230215
He defines these terms in UC though.

>>5230137
There was that Shounen Jump contest recently. I think they do them at least a couple times a year.

bump

>>5226512
any thoughts? I am so worried about jumping into something that could just be a dead end

>>5202929
I've been doing character designs for my manga working in pen

>>5231718

>>5231719

>>5231720

>>5231718
>>5231719
>>5231720
very cool

>>5211763
I've got a plot in mind, which started as a fanfic on /mlp/ of all things. It's now gone past ponyfucking and I'm learning to draw so I can at least bring it to light in a digestible format. What >>5219297
says is right though, ideas don't matter when you can't put them on paper. I've gone through lots of traps where the story was cool but doesn't make sense.

Any tips for beginner drawing? I'm going through "drawing on the right side of the brain" right now

>>5221991
>If you can start wherever you want, then it's entirely possible that by the time you're ready to write your story you've done all this in a completely different order.

Not really, you can ruin a whole story by thinking of it the wrong way around. Once those wrong ideas are baked into the story, you'll basically have to re-write it to make it good, at which point you might as well write a new stroy.

Skyrim is a good example of this in popular media: The writers clearly thought of "dragons cool" and kept on adding cool characters and setting without keeping a theme to all of it, and you'd basically have to start from scratch to salvage that crap

>>5231841
Okay, but this can happen from any point in storybuilding. Hopping into a story from "The Right Place" does not preclude you from continuing to add in garbage because you think it's cool.

There is no mystical entrypoint into storybuilding that will guarantee a story that's free of bullshit. I don't know where people keep getting this idea from.

>>5231865
No, but there are lost of entry points that will guarantee junk

>>5231874
Untrue. No entry point guarantees or does not guarantee junk. Storywriting is about execution and knowing when to stop working on one portion and start working on another. The only way junk can be "guaranteed" is if you have no idea what you're doing. Retroactively reworking portions of a story to work better with newer decisions is something you can and *should* do regardless of where you start.

>>5231874
>>5231841
Anon, just leave him be. There’s a reason I stopped arguing with him. Once he gains more experience he’ll understand what we mean. If he has the least bit of self-awareness that is, and can look at his own writing through an objective lens.

I’ve already personally experienced having to totally rewrite stories because they weren’t working, because I started from the wrong point. I’m sure you have too. When he has to go through that himself as well, he’ll understand. Till then, just leave it. There’s no point in debate.

>>5231903
>Once he gains more experience he’ll understand what we mean.
I have plenty of experience doing this and have never had a problem. I've spoken with editors and industry professionals that like my work. Just because (You) are having trouble with this does not mean that others do.

Maybe if you tried loosening up a bit and exploring starting points a little more openly and exploring how you can go back and rewrite previous material to align with interesting elements from both the past and the present, you will stop having this problem as well.

theme is always the best thing to start with because if you try to think of it after you made your setting/characters/whatnot then you will end up having to cut out things that don't fit the theme and there is a chance that some of that stuff was integral to making the plot make sense or what have you and now you are basically stuck re-writing the whole thing.

>>5231907
It’s not common I do this, but you’re basically setting yourself up for it by speaking with so much authority, rather than offer a viable counter argument to what’s being said.

Post some of your writing for us to assess. If you’re a published author, surely you’d have a) no issue in pointing us toward your work, and b) the ability to give better pointers than what you’re currently doing.

>>5231918
>It’s not common I do this, but you’re basically setting yourself up for it by speaking with so much authority, rather than offer a viable counter argument to what’s being said.
Dude, the post I'm responding to literally questioned my experience. I'm responding to what's in the post, and was not the person who brought up qualifications in any shape or form. I don't even *want* to be talking about personal achievements here, and I'm sure as hell not attaching my name to an anonymous board.

>offer a viable counter argument to what’s being said.
There's literally nothing here to counterargue because no one has offered any evidence toward there being a foolproof entrypoint to storywriting, or even a "best" entrypoint to storywriting. Avatar: The Last Airbender was literally kickstarted off of an artist's sketch of a kid with a staff. If you start interconnecting ideas early, you can start wherever you want.

>>5231916
The analogy I was going to make was:

Theme is like your gesture/composition in art.
Characters your construction.
Plot your anatomy
And setting your stylization.

Starting anywhere other than with theme is asking for things to get fucked.

>>5231924
You can start with any idea, I’ve literally said this. But when you get down to ACTUALLY outlining and writing your story, you go theme first. I literally said this.

It’s dubious you’re as experienced as you claim you are considering you’re arguing this very basic point, and moreover, don’t seem capable of differentiating between ideating and writing.

>>5231931
>It’s dubious you’re as experienced as you claim you are considering you’re arguing this very basic point, and moreover, don’t seem capable of differentiating between ideating and writing.

>>5221991
>If "writing the story" and "preparing to write the story" are two separate processes as you have laid them out here, then there is absolutely no reason why you cannot "prepare to write the story" in whatever manner you choose.

I don't think you read what I said on this matter. But okay, sure, keep digging in on my experience. I'm done here.

>>5231939
post one glorious story you've written, surely there will be no argument then

>>5231955
The thing is, I don't even think we disagree that much, since I'm wholly on board with the idea that you should have at least the majority of your shit together before you start writing your story, I'm just taking umbrage with the idea that there is "One Way" to get your shit together.

>glorious
I'm not saying my shit doesn't stink anon, I'm saying that I've talked to professionals and have been assured that I know what I'm doing despite people in this thread attempting drags for no reason. Not once have I disparaged anyone's ability out of the blue and never will I plan to do that despite what's happening here.

>>5232036
Bro just ignore the /lit/ fag, they can't write for shit and never know what they're talking about.

>>5231939
You’re the one who cited your experience as an attribute to validate your stance.

Look, most of us here are decent artists but shitty writers, especially given how low the bar to writing is in comics/manga. But it’s because I know I suck that I’m open toward learning how to get better at this. I’m merely stating what’s been claimed by professionals on how to write stories, in lectures and books. I can cite at least 5 of them all saying the exact thing about the importance of starting from theme as it’s the foundation of your entire story. And I can speak from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE when I say, things started to click for me a lot better once I adopted this methodology when writing stories. It made tying threads much easier and it allowed for things to just fall into place with far less rewrites. Prior to I’d write a rough draft, get to the end, read it, and realize “something’s off” go through the editing process, fix fundamental errors, and new things that were off. And the deeper I dug the more I’d realize the whole thing was fucked. It wasn’t till I started working from theme that things actually delivered the emotional impact I wanted. Why? Because characters are the vehicles FOR your theme, their beliefs drive their wants, which drive the plot, and readers connect with beliefs more than anything else. Not my words. I’m paraphrasing John Turby.

Yet, you come in here, and offer no counter argument for this, and say “no bro, you don’t need to.” Despite me explaining and having experienced personally WHY that’s important. Instead you say “trust me bro, editors valudate me.”

The only conclusion , given we’re all beginners and you’re arguing against the tutorage of experts which is what I’m following, is.... show us

>>5232036
I’m not saying there’s “one way.” Like with art it’s just a bunch of tools. But like with art you better have a strong grasp on the foundational fundamentals before doing things “your way.” The reason you start with theme is cause theme determines the core argument of your narrative, which determines your characters’ beliefs, which determines their wants, which determines their needs, which determines their actions, which determines the plot, which determines the setting. OBVIOUSLY it’s a lot more nuanced than that, but that’s the general framework of the mechanics of a story. Obviously people who are more experienced and advanced have the ability to intuitively, retroactively determine the lower elements starting in the middle, but they still have those pieces in mind if not on paper. It’s like with art, you can stop relying on construction once you can do it in your head. This thread however is full of beginner, amateur writers, so telling them to do it wrong and disregard the fundamentals is going to fuck them up.

>>5232041
Hardly a /lit/fag. In my experience those guys are all like the anon here. “There is no process bro, only prose matters. Using those”tricks” is too restrictive for my writing, I WANT my reader to struggle to GET my deep story.” And they look down snobbishly on mainstream authors like Brandon Sanderson.

We NEED the methodology of mainstream authors and screenwriters. We’re working comics, not 2deep4u literature.

Guys, I have a problem with my line work. I never know what part of the body I should draw as a line, shade, cross hatch etc. Sometimes I just draw every muscle out like an outline and whatnot, and it sucks ass and is flat as hell.

Is there any Form of tutorial for that stuff? This is my one major headache.

>>5232349
Just do whatever conveys things clearest. That's the number one most important element of artwork in comics anyway: clarity.

>>5232351
I'll keep that in mind, thanks.

This one I made for a female mangaka on twitter. I tried to leave a lot of the form to shading here.

>>5232357
And this is somewhat of a mix between the two. As you can see I'm still experimenting.

>>5232156
>>5232159
drank too much stupid juice, it's like you're arguing that it's easier to solve a maze by going from end to start instead start to end.

>>5232159
> I WANT my reader to struggle to GET my deep story.

I fucking hate this and it happens in movies too. I read so many threads of people trying to decipher what this means or that means and everyone coming up with a different conclusion. It's as if they all watched a different movie and they are all padding each other on the backs for seeing shit in the movie that the writer or director probably didn't intend but would pretend they did if asked.

>>5232349
>>5232357
>>5232363
Read Scott McCloud's Making Comics, specifically chapter 2. He goes into detail about framing and body language being a key element of clear comic art, which is something even someone struggling with their actual drawing can execute.

>>5232889
Woah, thanks for that. Will do.

aaaaa i love making manga so much. im at a point where i don't even care about improving my drawing skills anymore i just wanna make more mangaaa

I’ve got the latest revision to the Alice pilot done if anyone is interested in reading it. Just gotta rework/tighten some dialogue so it’s more punchy, but other than that.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1jRhArXZtHNpHjxzelhHeo71uUOXVTdCDyhMpQZIenI4/edit

All feedback/critique/opinions welcome so feel free to voice your thoughts and impressions. I will be looking at how it’s received, albeit with a grain of salt.

>>5233966
Is someone else the writer?

>>5202929
After reading about >>5211968 I decided to focus on making a short story on this character aimed for a kind of slice of life feel. I hope to learn a lot about the process ,but it is time to research!!

>>5234301

>>5234244
Why do you ask?

How you want to make manga if you're not a nip?

>>5234666
日本人じゃないけど日本に住んでいて、日本語をしゃべる。

>>5229631
didn't even notice that she was kneeling in front of a toilet...

>>5234318
oh, it was like that for rosenrot, iirc

umm, your script is fine. I just think it would be easier to read the story in thumbnail forms, which is why I asked if you were the writer or not. It might be worth getting into thumbnailing straight away, after you have the general flow of the story established. As the audience reading a script, the pacing and comprehension is all screwed up, so I don't think I gave your story a fair reading. My impression of it was a bit mediocre and cliched, and some of the humor with oz was a bit much. But I can't say for sure, because the drawings, compositions, staging of the action might save it. Especially with the action scenes, depending on how you handle that.

>>5234301
>>5234303
nice! Just making manga in general is very fun. You'll fall more in love with the whole process rather than just your one story, and you'll be a broader and more flexible artist because of it.

is there is any competent artist here ? i'm a genius who made probably the best piece of fiction of all time but i dont want to learn art its too long anyway if you want to team up with me and be a part of a future millions dollars IP we should team up

>>5235437
sure, send me 50$ commission

https://youtu.be/yULt_h3E_Ag

We should add this to the OP maybe.

>>5235437
Post your work.

Anyone mind critiquing the coloring? I thought it came out ok, 40 mins, but I’d rather someone else see if I’m missing something. I pulled the lineart from Danbooru, artist is Attyon

>>5235905
looks really good. Maybe some highlights in the hair?

>>5235821
Did he ink with the kabura nib, like in most gag manga?

>>5235905
your layers look intersting.
whats your process like?

>>5235913
lol I totally forgot about them.
>>5235929
Lineart, then a backing layer so I can select the whole shape at once. Then one layer on normal to greyscale everything. Then I just used multiply layers on top of each individual part (skin, clothes, etc) and adjusted the hues before merging them in. In the single layer I would go back and adjust. Then one Normal layer on top of everything to add highlights that go over lineart.

>>5235913
>>5235969
Actually now that I think about it, I’m always indecisive about how to do the hair highlights. Anyone wanna volunteer some examples that might work?

>>5235976
There are a million ways to do them, and the best is probably to study up from real life and lots of different mangaka to build a large visual library.

How do you scan bristol board on a regular printer. Or is that even possible?

>>5236031
Like, through the printer or just on its scanner? I think it just scans normally if you have a big enough scanning bed (non-photo lines not showing up of course). If your lines aren’t coming through then either adjust the settings or ink?

>>5236061
Oh I meant the scanner. That would make more sense I guess. I haven't tried it yet. I was just considering inking traditionally and wanted to prepare.

pre-emptive bump

You will never be a manga

>>5232159
>>5232156

also just knowing the tools isn't enough, if you can't look at a movie or comic book and can't easily break the story down by whatever method you are using then you don't understand your toolset enough. You need to see your tools in action to see how they actually work. Just like drawing, you also have to study works to better understand your toolset. For instance, if you are using the save the cat method you need to figure out which story genre a movie/comic is using or if it's John Turby you must easily be able to recognize the theme and how it affects everything else in the story. If you are using the hero with a thousand faces then you have been conned because you are following advice from someone who never wrote stories in the first place.

>>5236747
>:O

>>5237237
>If you are using the hero with a thousand faces then you have been conned because you are following advice from someone who never wrote stories in the first place.
Lmao

>>5232156
>>5232159
You're essentially arguing the only good way to solve a maze is from end to start and not start to end. My god, get off of yourself.

>>5237787
No, I’m saying only way to solve a maze is to know where you’re going and what the point of doing the maze in the first place is.

>>5238023
John Truby sucks man. I haven’t been reading the conversation but I know that man wasted a year of my life. His system for writing is too inflexible and isn’t used by every good story out there. Rules and important only when they’re necessary to write a good story and that isn’t the case for Trubys stuff. Maybe he can give you a formula to write one kind of good story, but you’re preemptively shooting yourself in the foot here.

>>5235905
Not a manga artist but do you have a twitter with more of this girl? Trying to coom

>>5238023
No, you're arguing theme -> characters -> plot -> setting. From conventional end point to conventional starting point. Going setting -> characters -> plot -> theme is just as viable. You create a setting, explore different characters, and then explore different ways the plot could potentially unfold. The theme is treated as the consequence of the characters and plot in this approach. There are innumerable ways to go about making a story, what the best way of going about things will always depend on the person themselves. Theme, character, plot and setting all mutually affect each other. Without linear, one way relationships, you cannot insist on there being a proper order of things.

>>5238177
Anon, you’re building a pyramid, not a trail. Pyramids are built from the bottom, not the top. If your foundation is fucked, your building will crumble under its own weight. It’s not “conventional start to end,” it’s starting from the base.

> Going setting -> characters -> plot -> theme is just as viable.
You’re not a PhD in English who spent his entire life worldbuilding Middle Earth, and already had an incredibly deep and rich intuition for how to build a story. You’ll never be Tolkien, and your also no familiar with the nuances of how he wrote or planned his work.


> The theme is treated as the consequence of the characters and plot in this approach
Feel free to write a story this way, and come to the same conclusions others have “shit, this is weak, I gotta rewrite from scratch.” You don’t build from the top and then put your foundation in last, a weak theme that’s an afterthought creates a muddled and unsatisfying story.

>There are innumerable ways to go about making a story, what the best way of going about things will always depend on the person themselves.
Stories are guides to life. If you don’t have a reason for telling the story, a message to go with it, your story is a pointless waste of time. Starting a story without a purpose for telling it, is like starting a speech or essay without a thesis. It’s a complete waste of everyone’s time and a guaranteed way to piss off your audience. At best you might be able to entertain them in some ways, but your story will still be unfulfilling.

>Without linear, one way relationships, you cannot insist on there being a proper order of things.
You’re the one stating it’s linear, I’m stating it’s foundational, this here speaks to your lack of experience (assuming this is still the same anon from before who won’t let this go).

>>5238039
> Maybe he can give you a formula to write one kind of good story,
This definitely sounds like you didn’t read the book, especially since starting from theme doesn’t create “one kind of story.” Just about all the most memorable works of fiction are built from theme. Not only that, but the T>C>P>S approach is encouraged by just every pro and tutor out there: Jerry Jenkins, McKee, Brandon Sanderson, Tyler Mowery, you name it. If he’s wrong, then so are tons of others. That approach to writing is an incredibly common piece of advice.

If you want links, I got em.

>>5238273
My problem with Truby is that every story has to begin with the protagonist's moral weakness. That just doesn't happen. I'm not arguing about theme approach.

>>5238177
Anon, don't engage with him. Anybody with a brain can figure out that the other anon is just a retard, you don't need to prove it, him speaking is proof enough.

>>5238270
Tolkien also wrote several short stories with themes that would be reutilized in the Hobbit and LotR when he was hospitalized after the battle of Somme. The idea that “he started from setting” is a misconception. He also wrote the definitive version of Sir Gwain and the Green Knight before writing the Hobbit. Tolkein already had an idea of what story he wanted to tell, and the themes he wanted to explore well before he started worldbuilding Middle Earth. Additionally, he didn’t worldbuild Middle Earth by autistically thinking up a million things before writing a story. He worldbuilt it by writing stories, and then expanded on it as he went along. LotR and the Hobbit are just written in a world he’d already created for other stories he’d written over many years, and again, he knew what he wanted to write about before he started writing it.

>>5238285
It depends, he doesn’t mention flat character arcs, but when he says “protagonist” I just substitute that “character with the primary character arc.” Characters with flat arcs still change those around them. You still have to know what it is the side character is failing at in order to know what you’re going to write. And what they’re failing at is what your MC fully understands. Most shounen is written like this in fact.

>>5232357
gib me those mommy milkers

>>5238287
Anon, write however you want to write. I’d given up on this topic ages ago. But you and the other guy keep bringing it back to tell me how I’m “wrong.” I’m going to correct you in which case. I don’t see the point of arguing for argument’s sake though.

If you disagree, then just disagree and move on. But I’m not going to change my approach to writing when it works for me just cause it triggers some autists on 4chan. And that’s the approach you should be taking too.

>>5238304
Those are completely different people. I'm the guy you were arguing with earlier. Lots of people disagree with you here, looks like.

>>5238304
>But I’m not going to change my approach to writing when it works for me just cause it triggers some autists on 4chan.
not that anon but get your head out your ass lmao them ain't tryna change shit about how you write your fucking stories mate, they saying there more than one way to go about writing stories you retard

>>5238308
And lots of people agree with me as well. It’s an absolutely idiotic stance to take though, as you’re just essentially going “nuh uh,” posting no work or alternative sources. You’re free to hold any opinion you like, but if you’re going to argue that I’m wrong, then you better do more than just say “I disagree.” Then you’re just arguing in bad faith.

>>5238310
> they saying there more than one way to go about writing stories you retard
Not if you want to write things with mainstream appeal you absolute moron. This applies to the other anon too. Feel free to write however you like, and to hold whatever opinion you like. But the methodology for writing stories that can appeal to audiences has been thoroughly studied and understood, and doesn’t have as much wiggle room as you think. If you want to be a /lit/fag and write stories for yourself that will appeal to a very niche audience, go ahead man. You’re making art. You’re free to express yourself however you like. However, there are people here, myself included who want to make this a sustainable, professional career. This means understanding the fundamental elements that make stories click. There is absolutely nothing here saying you and everyone who disagrees can’t be a contrarian and write any other way. That said, I will speak from experience when I say you’ll notice your stories will be much weaker than otherwise if you don’t start from the foundation.

When people ask for advice, I’m going to give them advice that has worked for professionals who are making a living off of their stories. Meanwhile, you can happily write whatever you feel like.

There sure is a lot of pretentious talking about what makes a story from people pretending to be experts. But not many stories or story critique being posted. Making this entire discussion, and thread for that matter, absolutely worthless.

There’s absolutely no point in having a thread where one of the primary points should be story critique, and no one is posting stories or critique, and only arguing about stupid bullshit and going “uhm... in my opinion.”


I’m attacking both sides btw.

I've been feeling really torn between doing my comics in color or monochrome.

What are your thoughts on this? Especially for trying to do well on webtoons / tapas

>>5238420
If it’s Webtoons, then color.

>>5238427
how much more of an uphill climb is it to be popular on webtoons with monochrome?

>>5238437
Significant especially if your story isn’t geared to appeal to girls.

>>5238443
dammit

>>5238443
This. Also webtoons does not like shit that isn't korean style storytelling.

>>5238459
>korean style storytelling.
What does that mean?

>>5238459
>>5238465
https://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/tale-by-the-rivershore/list?title_no=602142

but look at this one. The Black and white isn't stopping it from getting a thousand likes. Its well written and kinda funny, the episodes are just a bit short.

>>5238470
And it’s a romance story written for girls. The primary reader base on WT. Their site even encourages you to do color for more views.

>>5238465
If it isn't traditional korean manga tropes/pacing/style the users will tell you it's shit is what that means.

>>5238484
>traditional korean manga tropes/pacing/style
And what are those exactly?

>>5238177
This. Thank you.

>>5232363
Ayyy I've seen this posted on /snk/

isn’t theme subjective and varies depending on what the reader takes away from it?

like jurassic park could have someone think the theme is about man tampering with the balance of life, or that it’s about adults transitioning into parenthood or that it’s about corporate greed vs ethics and morals.... the list goes on for as creative as you wanna get out of how you interpret the movie.

attack on titan is huge right now, but can you tell what the theme of it is or if anyone really cares what the theme is? it’s badly written no doubt but it’s engaging anyways and everyone (normies especially) love to discuss it.

dorohedoro is a manga that /a/ continues to put on a pedestal and it even got a netflix adaptation. but q hayashida literally admits she just drew whatever she thought was cool and her and the editor just had to figure out a way to make it coherent and it turned out to be a fun story in the end. but that didn’t stop reviewers from interpreting her work to be deeper than it actually is, like that it’s about finding family and friendship in the midst of a bleak environment.

i remember being in english class and trying to interpret symbols and themes and stuff out of books like “the tin drum” by gunter grass, but it was basically just a contest on who is good at bullshitting their way on an analysis.

kind of like my fine arts class and trying to make some “2deep4u” blurb about why putting half eaten cucumbers in a box is symbolic for poverty or some shit like that, when it’s really someone’s leftover lunch and they forgot to do their assignment until last minute. (they got an A btw)

theme just seems to be an afterthought and comes naturally after however you end up writing your story.

>>5239005
>isn’t theme subjective and varies depending on what the reader takes away from it?
No. And Death of the Author is an idiotic piece of literature.

> attack on titan is huge right now, but can you tell what the theme of it is or if anyone really cares what the theme is?
Theme depend on character arcs. So for every character arc, you have at least one theme. You need to look at where the characters start and how they change. Now, personally I’ve only watched the first season of AoT and it was like half a decade ago, but the themes as I remember were fairly clear:
-living in oppression and the desire to escape/survive
>the way I see it people who are satisfied living like caged birds are the real fools (Eren)
-humanity vs human nature
How power and greed can corrupt, and how even under threat of extinction people will still infight, as it’s human nature, and it presses that with the pervailence of human spirit over the folly of human desire. Your instinct to survive can lead to the destruction of you and others, but self-sacrifuce for the greater good is instead what people should aspire to, whether you’re man or titan. The series flips the trope of man vs. monster to, humans are the real monsters fairly quickly and even does so literally. There’s a reason it quickly revealed the titans were other humans. Because a story about man vs. mindless monsters as an antagonist leaves little room for ideological conflict.

>do people care
A well executed story is able to convey complex themes emotionally, in a way you can “get it” without needing to overthink it. That’s the point of story. And yes, AoT has been very successful at this. That’s why it’s so popular.

>>5239005
2/2

> dorohedoro
Haven’t read this so I couldn’t give you a deeper analysis. I’ve only watched the first episode. But you need only trace the MCs character arc in order to understand the theme. Themes don’t need to be overly complex. Even a simple theme of never giving up in spite of insurmountable odds like the one Dragonball did again and again is simple enough to work. But all stories have a theme and are written with intent. If a writer is truly writing from within and communicating their views about the world through story, then it’s got theme.

Alice in Wonderland is a great example cause people think it’s utter nonsense, but it’s not.

Ok, so a legit question for everyone ITT.

Do you write at all? And if so? How often? And how many stories have you written?

We’ve had like over 2 dozen threads of this by now and in over 6 months I barely see any stories get posted at all.

>>5239028
I writing right now!

>>5239028
I don’t write. I only come here to shitpost.

>>5239020
>death of the author
i dunno what you mean by that, i only mentioned the tin drum, and i hated that book.
>aot
but if you make a thread on /a/ and ask about what the themes are, every anon is going to give you a different answer. that’s my point. whatever isayama’s intent for theme, people are going to interpret it differently anyways.

>>5239021
if a theme doesn’t need to be complex then why should we have to keep it in mind then when we can just make it up as we write the story? every story can just be “friendship/love conquers all” as long as the MC has a happy ending.

also i highly recommend dorohedoro, i think people appreciate it BECAUSE it doesn’t take itself seriously.

>>5239049
Death of the Author is a thesis written by Jaques Derrida that argues that the creator’s intent is meaningless as only the reader’s interpretation is what matters in art. It’s what led to the post-modernist movement of “everything can be art.”

> but if you make a thread on /a/ and ask about what the themes are, every anon is going to give you a different answer. that’s my point. whatever isayama’s intent for theme, people are going to interpret it differently anyways

This is exactly my point, and the exact argument Derrida makes. It’s moronic because people being unable to verbalize the themes due to lack of experience or intelligence doesn’t mean the message isn’t communicated emotionally. The POINT of storytelling is to take philosophical discourse and communicate those arguments THROUGH story and emotion.

Back to Alice in Wonderland. A child doesn’t need to know anything about calculus and theoretical mathematics in order to understand the frustration Alice and by proxy Carroll felt when presented with absurdity and nonsense. The theme is communicated effectively through story and emotion, even of what the reader gets out of it consciously is “haha, what a silly tale of a girl chasing a rabbit and having whimsical adventures.” Yet it’s a deeply profound tale, carefully written with every intention of being deeply profound, and it’s said meticulous intent that has led it to being one if the most influential works in fantasy and all of fiction, still beloved to this day.

Lewis Carroll “wasn’t on drugs.” He wrote every single like of that story with thematic purpose, and you can tell, by how well written the prose and dialogue is. How Alice and the characters speak in riddle constantly, and the careful meter of the prose. None of that is accidentally NOR meaningless.

>>5239049
2/2

> if a theme doesn’t need to be complex then

Because it’s a question of “why you want to tell a story.” Storytelling is communication. You’re not writing for yourself. I mean, you can, but you’ll only ever reach a niche audience that way. But if you intend to reach more ears, then you need to ask yourself “what’s important to ME about by life experience that I want to share TO others.

Answering this question will then help inform what your characters should believe in and want, and what sort of obstacles they should face that best challenge those beliefs in order for the argument to be made compelling.

People might be entertained by flashy action and silly humor, but they deeply connect with the theme cause it’s an emotional conversation from you to them, transmitted through your characters. If you want people to emotionally connect to your characters it’ll be through their beliefs not anything else. Theme is the core foundation of your entire story.

>>5239091
I wanna add one more thing. When Eichiro Oda and Jump editors say stuff like “write something only you can write.”
This.

> then you need to ask yourself “what’s important to ME about by life experience that I want to share TO others.

> they deeply connect with the theme cause it’s an emotional conversation from you to them, transmitted through your characters.

Is exactly what they’re talking about. You don’t even need to be original with your theme. You just need to present YOUR take/opinion on the matter. If it’s something that truly matters to you, then you will have an opinion on it.

>>5239089
>because people being unable to verbalize the themes due to lack of experience or intelligence

but it’s manga not prose/literature... i think you wrote somewhere how you’re aiming towards mainstream, but a lot of mainstream is composed of teens and young adults that haven’t figured out much of their life yet. the majority mainstream IS the inexperienced and non-intelligent.

i think somewhere along your story writing tunnel, you maybe forgot why you got into manga in the first place. you were likely a child. i doubt you cared about themes when you first really got into it.

i think the thing with theme is that no matter how you write a story, there WILL be some sort of theme in it anyways.

>>5239115
>”write something only you can write “
>jump editors

man, they follow a formula and everyone past the age of 20 can feel it in their bones which is why everything feels like naruto or bleach. i mean i get their sentiment but doesn’t it feel hollow coming from them, and then turning around and following some generic formula and churning out millions? these guys also rejected AoT when isayama proposed the idea to them that was “too different” for their taste which was why he was published instead on some literal who publisher and he was so low confidence in his own work that he thought there was something wrong with the publisher.

i don’t disagree with you on the voice your opinion thing, but that naturally happens anyways in your writing no matter if you start with character or plot. i mean it’s coming from your own brain, so whose else opinion would it be?

>>5239171
And manga has theme. Every story arc in the most critically acclaimed manga have theme.

Fullmetal Alchemist has theme. Hunter x Hunter has theme. My Hero Academia has theme. Kimetsu no Yaiba has theme. Bleach has theme. Naruto has theme. One Piece has theme. Ruroni Kenshin has theme. Saint Seiya has theme. Etc... etc... just because you’re ignorant to the fact doesn’t mean other people are. /a/ constantly asks themselves “why is Kimetsu so popular?” But if they actually bothered to read what the Japanese audience says about Kimetsu they’d understand. Japanese readers are keen on the themes of the story. About the perseverance of kindness and optimism even when confronted with the bleakness and despair of death. As well as your duty to friends, family, and community. I could literally break all the ones I just mentioned to you down, and explain the themes present and how they’re reflected in the manga, and every single one is SHOUNEN, and I didn’t even drop the obvious one in the form of Death Note.

> man, they follow a formula and everyone past the age of 20 can feel it in their bones which is why everything feels like naruto or bleach.

In plot archetypes not in theme. Naruto, Bleach, MHA, Black Clover, etc... follow similar plot archetypes. The themes are all wholly different however. Theme is how you make a story wholly unique by making it YOURS and having it reflect your values and views about the world and life.

Cont...

2/3

For example:
MHA’s CORE theme is about inequality and injustice. It’s asking the question “what is a hero?” By presenting an injust world where people are segregated by supernatural power, and showing that a hero is measured by their actions and their courage and not their powers.

Naruto is a story about friendship and forgiveness. The heart of the story is the relationship between Naruto and Sasuke. People complained about the “talk no jutsu” but those people failed to understand that it was an expressed point as Naruto’s ability to turn the blackest of hearts back to light through compassion and understanding was the entire point of the story and it was building toward that with Sasuke.

3/3

Bleach is a story about learning to cope with death. People always said that Ichigo has no want, but that’s utterly moronic. Ichigo’s want is and always had been to protect those dear to him after the trauma he had after losing his mom to a hollow. It’s what drove him to become a Soul Reaper. It’s what drove him to challenge the Soul Society, and this side of his character was thoroughly explored when he fought grand fisher. Not only that, but the idea was then expanded in the Rukia rescue arc, where Ichigo’s belief that your loved ones are mire valuable than the rules and norms of society were challenged by Byakuya’s opposing stance that no, upholding harmony in society takes precedence over everything else. Ichigo v. Byakuya and the SS arc were great because they were meticulously constructed around these core themes. Every character in that arc had a different take on the argument of Societal Duty vs Family Bonds. And people recognized that, as SS is still regarded as the best arc in Bleach. In fact, you wanna know when Bleach started to suck? When it lost direction and the stories were no longer structured around theme first. It became aimless, meandering, and felt weak and pointless. Themes WERE present, but they weren’t clear cause the story stopped being focused around them.

AlT was denied not for lacking theme, but for being “too dark and mature for Jump” as per that specific editor’s opinion. They said they’d welcome it if he toned down the violence, but Ishiyama refused to compromise and went to Kodansha instead. Since then, Jump has welcomed darker stories in their catalogue, i.e. Chainsawman. And again, that was just that one editor’s opinion. He clearly made a bad judgement call.

>>5239245
>>5239171
Also, Kodansha isn’t “literal who” it’s the number 2 manga publisher in the world, and Shueisha’s (JUMP) biggest rival.

>>5239237
>But if they actually bothered to read what the Japanese audience says about Kimetsu they’d understand. Japanese readers are keen on the themes of the story.

Yeah, but /a/ just flips their SHIT if something is Shounen, and they don't look any further.

>>5239249
And that’s why /a/ isn’t a good barometer for what people actually think about manga or story. It’s a board full of cynical hipsters who think they’re way smarter than they actually are.

Picture a board full of Digibros. That’s/a/ in a nutshell. Meanwhile, Kimetsu is a rollercoaster success for its ability to present deep and meaningful themes in a story that can appeal to kids thanks to its simplicity in structure and character. The golden ticket to success is being able to write a story that can appeal to children and adults, for different reasons, not one that can appeal only to hipster otaku who are too opinionated for their own good.

>>5239237
doesn’t cwc’s work technically have theme too? the guy wanna get sum fuck. i’m not even saying this to piss you off but his work is fairly consistent on the theme of getting a girl. what do you think of his work?

>just because you are ignorant to the fact doesn’t mean other people are
i don’t get why you’re getting so angry/defensive, i was just pointing out maybe stories especially in manga aren’t all that deep because the audience is fairly simple.
>japanese readers
nips are like anyone else, i dunno why you’d think they’re more theme inclined than other countries. sounds to me that they like kimetsu because it aligned with their cultural values more than the theme itself.

i’ll give nips this, they are nationalistic as hell. you set your manga in japan, setting in high school (where they last had any freedom), and make the values on family and friends and you got a banger.

anyways whatever formula shonen follows, plot archetype or not, it feels hollow and soulless and generic. doesn’t that mean their “theme” isn’t working? this is why AoT shot to popularity, because it’s so different.

>>5239264
>cwc
I wouldn’t know. I haven’t read and don’t intend to read his work. The fact that you find the work of a mentally handicapped manchild deeply profound speaks to just how little you understand what I’m talking about. Maybe this isn’t for you. Theme isn’t what you want. Theme INFLUENCES what your characters want. Wanting sex isn’t a theme. It doesn’t present a philosophical or ideological conflict to reflect on. The only reason CWC is even remotely popular is cause he’s a lolcow that makes other pathetic losers feel better about themselves when they compare themselves to him. People who enjoy his nonsense “ironically” but really only do so out of the catharsis of seeing a walking disaster.

> maybe stories especially in manga aren’t all that deep because the audience is fairly simple.

And I’m correcting you and telling you that’s not the case and even bothered to carefully detail examples which you completely ignored. If you’re wondering why I’m getting irritated it’s cause argument fir the sake of argument isn’t a hobby of mine, and this conversation is going nowhere fast as I’m starting to repeat myself.

> nips are like anyone else
This has nothing to do with what I said. I mentioned Japanese readers because Kimetsu is significantly more popular in Japan than the west. If you paid attention to what I mentioned in regard to Kimetsu’s themes, you’d see that it aligns well with Japan’s cultural values, thereby explaining its explosive popularity in Japan.

> where they last had any freedom
False. I live in Japan. College is where they have the “most freedom.” Not high school.

Anime is set in high school because THATS THE TARGET AUDIENCE.

2/2
> it feels hollow and soulless and generic.
This is a subjective opinion, not an objective measure. Your opinion and taste aren’t qualifiers on the objective quality of a piece of media or art. People have different tastes. Things that feel hollow or cliche to you only do so because you’re overly used to seeing them. Learn to separate your personal taste from your critical reasoning, and start to view things from the eyes of your target audience. At least if you intend to write stories.

>doesn’t that mean their “theme” isn’t working?
No.
>this is why AoT shot to popularity, because it’s so different.
AoT shot up in popularity BECAUSE it had its themes laid out clearly, and because the first arc was a fast paced roller coaster of high stakes and twists which hooked an audience.

Plot-wise it’s the exact same archetype as Muv-Luv, Independence Day, 300, and like, most war films. It’s the “survive the foreign invaders” plot archetype, with some David and Goliath mixed in. Character’s, there’s nothing new either. In fact, arc 1 of AoT is weak on character in favor of a fast paced plot. The unique things about AoT are the Theme and Setting. The exact things I said earlier in the thread you had the most flexibility when writing. And moreover, the setting is constructed in FAVOR of the themes and plot. It’s built to service the themes he wants to present. This is especially clear if you read the one shot. Which had the same themes, but different plot, characters, and setting. It was just the core concept and themes.

>>5239296
>I wouldn’t know. I haven’t read and don’t intend to read his work.
You're not missing out. Sonichu is nothing but an ego rub wish fulfillment wankfest that's disguised as a comic. It's no different from any other self-insert story you can find on the internet if you ask me.

Back on topic: The writing advice on theme turned out to be immensely useful to me. I have a first arc planned out and I'm now on the first draft of the script. Thanks, anons, I feel like I'm finally getting somewhere with my work!

>>5239296
>The fact that you find the work of a mentally handicapped manchild deeply profound speaks to just how little you understand what I’m talking about. Maybe this isn’t for you.
can you get off your rag for a minute, no where did i say it was a profound piece of literature, i was just saying his stuff deff has a theme of wanting to bang, and by which your definition, meets literature standards, which it clearly is not.

it doesn't seem like you read much outside of your generic shonen, but chainsaw man is a rising manga that literally follows cwc's themes of wanting to fuck, albeit, drawn and written better obviously. does that mean chainsaw man doesn't have a theme? (it's also getting an anime btw)

>False. I live in Japan. College is where they have the “most freedom.” Not high school.
that was more tongue-in-cheek but whatever, i obviously DON'T live in japan and couldn't give less of a fuck, all i know is that they chase the high they had for that brief freedom, period, which you can argue that is why they set it there in the first place.
>target audience
disagree, that's like saying made in abyss is targeted for children that young because they're 12 years old. clearly is not.

>>5239299
>This is a subjective opinion, not an objective measure
well then by your hypocritical logic, wouldn't death of an author, which you said was "an idiotic piece of literature", is just as subjective? then why should anyone listen to you either?

bro just post your work or at least the title. i remember you from the other threads that you were trying to get published or whatever but kept refusing to post your magical girl manga with tarots or something. post something else you've done then? you have other work don't you?

How many days has it been now
I am so tired of seeing this
Please go argue somewhere else
I just want to get advice on my manga in peace

>>5239420
i second this

>>5239420
>>5239493
Thirding.

>>5239420
>>5239493
>>5239498
I honestly really enjoy these writing discussions. Obviously when it gets too vicious its bad but the more I can read, the better. I have my own opinions, but I take whats useful and whats not, and its always good to be interested in opposing points of views.

>>5239663
it's fun when it's two posts but when you guys start writing pages of statement and the initial point it becomes tiring.

i understand your point, let's just please not start another one of those discussions.

>>5239764
start writing pages of statement and the initial point of the thread is lost it becomes tiring*

>>5239393
>i was just saying his stuff deff has a theme of wanting to bang
That isn’t a theme. You don’t understand what theme is despite me spelling it out for you 3x now.

> but chainsaw man is a rising manga that literally follows cwc's themes of wanting to fuck
What I’m gathering from this and our conversation is that you’ve got the reading comprehension skills of a child.

> all i know is that they chase the high they had for that brief freedom, period,
They don’t, and idk where you get off making this statement. I also literally just told you that HS in Japan is far more stressful than college, between exams, clubs, and cram school. They hardly have time for a social life in HS. Whereas college in Japan is a massive pisstake.

>which you can argue that is why they set it there in the first place.
No, and I literally told you why it’s set in HS. You need to stop substituting /a/ memes for reality.

> disagree, that's like saying made in abyss is targeted for children that young because they're 12 years old
Made in Abyss is published in a seinen mag, online. Guess what the target demographic is...

>Derrida
You know I was criticizing him, right?

>>5239393
> bro just post your work
I’ve already posted the latest draft of the screenplay for Alice, which went largely ignored, while half the thread instead opted to argue with me about a topic I dropped BEFORE posting it.

What I can conclude from that, is that perhaps this thread isn’t as helpful as I would have originally presumed given how little people here understand story structure, if the conversation I’ve had the last couple days is anything to go by.

So far, from the individuals I’ve showed it to, I’ve gotten two “I loved it” with some feedback on some minor bits of dialogue that were confusing, and a “it’s cliche” from someone here... which again. It’s what I should have expected given the conversation I’ve been having. I’m not writing this for 4chan hipsters, I’m writing it for Jump. In truth, insight from an industry insider will be far more useful than anything I could get from here.

>>5239420
Believe me. It hasn’t been a pleasant experience for me either. It’s been like rubbing sandpaper on your fingernails. Part of me legit thinks I’m just being trolled. But the quality of this thread has gone done significantly. I think after this, I’ll just be permanently checking out from these threads, as there’s not really anything useful in them, and my attempt to contribute are met with constant arguing from people who think they know better.

>>5240121
man you're such an unpleasant guy, i can't imagine how your manga would be any fun. good fucking luck my dude.

>>5240128
How do you lack self awareness so bad

>>5240128
>What I can conclude from that, is that perhaps this thread isn’t as helpful as I would have originally presumed given how little people here understand story structure, if the conversation I’ve had the last couple days is anything to go by.
all you've been doing itt and other threads is talking as the authority on story structure which people clearly disagree with you on because the plain truth is that there's numerous ways to approach stories, doesn't look like you're here to do anything but swing your dick around.

>>5240128
your screenplay for Alice went ignored because it was bad. It was a struggle to read and just not good at all. The numbers speak for themselves. If it was good you would've gotten replies. You can go ahead and denounce all of 4chan for being idiots, but you know thats not true.

Good luck with Jump though

>>5240128
Sorry to say anon but you've just found out why anyone whose time has value at all doesn't spend any of it here. You'll only find pointlessly argumentative clowns.

>>5240149
Should he not be talking as an authority?
What is the other side of the argument doing, if not talking as authorities?
His entire point is that the evidence for his claims is there in the examples everyone else is bringing up. Don't get so wrapped up in the argument that you can't see that he's right.

>>5240233
>Sorry to say anon but you've just found out why anyone whose time has value at all doesn't spend any of it here. You'll only find pointlessly argumentative clowns.
The alice faggot eclipses everybody else combined in number of replies and words written in this pointless argument. He is the clown.

>>5240132
>>5240135
>>5240149
>meet with a jump editor, get specific feedback on what I need to fix
>spend the last 6 months reading on the theory for storytelling, breaking it down and applying it to manga, and writing and rewriting
>someone asks for advice
>here’s what worked for me, here’s some examples, here’s the the cited literature
>other person “ur wrong”
>well no, but ok, why?
>there’s more than one way to tell a story
>well yes, but if you wanna write for mainstream, you should start from theme because-
>no you’re wrong
>can you tell me why?
>because you can also do it from setting
>not really no
>yes you can
>well can you give me some examples or some literature that states you can? Because all I’ve read says the opposite
>it’s just my opinion bro
>well could you post your work?
>looook, I’m not saying my shit doesn’t stink, only that you’re wrong

That just about sums up this entire ridiculous debate.

>>5240209
Well, “that’s just your opinion bro.”

Considering Fukuda liked the last one, and this is a step up from that. I think I’ll be ok. I’ll stick to his feedback once I wrap up the name and translations instead.

I only posted it here to hear immediate opinions, but now that I realize this thread has basically become an extension of /a/.... well I’m not writing this for /a/.

>>5240245
>I only posted it here to hear immediate opinions, but now that I realize this thread has basically become an extension of /a/.... well I’m not writing this for /a/.
I'm one of the people rooting for you in regards to you publishing efforts anon, but this is cringe and demeaning to the other people in the thread. Disagreements are understandable, but I'm worried that you're letting things get to your head.

>>5240245
hey. I liked the last alice script more than this one. Take that for what you will. I had a really long critique typed up for your second script because I respected you but I deleted it because I wanted to make sure you were the writer first. And maybe your thumbnails would've saved your script.

I'm not the one of the people you were debating with but if you're only 6 months into studying storytelling its no wonder you still like John Truby and have all these stiff opinions on writing. Hopefully the Jump editor can help you but I don't know if theres much to save wtih your second script.

>>5238039
he isn't the only writer who advocates for that style of writing. Starting from theme is more freeing than restrictive if you know what you are doing so no it doesn't allow to only make one good type of story

>>5238177
sure you could but all your avenues of exploring characters are going to be arbitrary until you find your theme and then you are just cutting stuff you pointlessly created. You can also be a bad writer and leave them in thats an option too

>>5238270
To add, if your theme is the afterthought or end after everything else it can lead to coming off as preachy

>>5240284
>sure you could but all your avenues of exploring characters are going to be arbitrary until you find your theme and then you are just cutting stuff you pointlessly created.

Not him but not necessarily. Certain settings lend themselves to certain kinds of characters, which lend themselves to certain kinds of plots, which lend themselves to certain kinds of themes.

Similarly, certain kinds of characters lend themselves to certain kinds of themes, which might lend themselves to certain kinds of settings, which lend themselves to certain kinds of plots.

Or any number of other rearrangements.

Sometimes, I'll just draw a character design, find it interesting, and think "who is this person? What kind of world do they live in? What is the context for this existence?" and go from there. One of my favorite settings, which has one of my favorite (personal) themes, was created that way.

>>5238285
that only applies to whoever is the dominant dynamic character, and sometimes that isn't the main character singular. It can be a group of people or even society that changes and has a moral weakness. These types of stories are most prominent where you have a static main character. So you have tons of options you just need to think for yourself and stop mistaking a guiding tool for a recipe

>>5240245
>that imaginary convo
lmao. can you get your head out of your ass for a minute and step back and see why people are so put off with the way you are behaving?
i'm seeing a pattern where anyone who disagrees with you, you automatically get on the defensive, chimp out and tell them they're retarded when they're just stating their opinions which is funny because it's exactly the opposite of how you depicted yourself in your greentext.

it's nice that you're working with this jump editor that you cannot stop talking about, but i bet a different jump editor would have said something differently about your work and put you in another direction. i wonder what your opinion on story telling would be then...

>>5240284
?? No ones telling you to waste time fleshing out ideas. Considering all sorts of different possibilities is something you should always be doing at your exploratory stage regardless.

>>5238310
sure there are and most of them are garbage so go ahead and stick to your hero with a thousand faces approach so you can make money off of toys

>>5238380
one person is just reciting readily available information from experts while everyone else is calling them pretentious and not really giving any advice what so ever other than being contrarian to what ever the experts say

>>5240296
now you're just twisting John Truby's writings to make it work. Don't be dumb

>>5239005

>isn’t theme subjective

if the writer can do their job and can't be clear about what they are saying then yea one of two things will happen, either you are a nobody and people will write you off or you are an established writer and fans will do the work for you and come up with their own theme and give you the credit for it

>>5240309
the entire argument is retarded because the person reciting readily available information can't make the distinction between here is a proven good way to write a story vs here is the only way to write a story.

>>5240314
not really, I never said that is what he is saying. A group of people can work as a character so it doesn't twist what he is saying it expands on it and it doesn't contradict. It's also something you can understand by studying more. I use John Turby, Brian McDonald, and Blake Snyder interchangeably

>>5240321
even if you didn't go by what they are saying is the only way to write a story and you wrote a good story using some other method, it's still going to line up with the better method if you break it down. You are just arguing there is a longer route to end up in the same destination and if you do it the hard way that is up to you

>>5240301
but if you don't know what your theme is then you people are saying to waste time exploring possibilities that don't line up with the theme

>>5240291
You are absolutely right and this is the best method to go with if you want something cliche, because rather than starting from something as abstract as theme and finding a new solution you are instead picking from tropes that already lend themselves to this or that and mashing them together.

>>5240341
>>5240346
>>5240359
I don't think you understand what a theme is. Its not so broad that it can rule every single aspect of your story. the theme is just what happens at the climax of the story. Its the author's conclusion as to what happens and why.

Is there a place where I can read comics made by /ic/?

>>5240359
But anon, no matter where you start, you're going to have to do that anyway. How are you supposed to derive setting, characters, and plot entirely from theme without "picking from tropes that already lend themselves to this or that?" Design, writing, and all sorts of other things are about creating inferences. What makes stories different and unique based on the writer is that different people infer different connections between two things. What you think fits a theme of "revenge" or "justice" might be different from what I think fits that theme. That's part of the reason why people can or do interpret different stories differently anyway, regardless of the goals of the writer.

>>5240375
I don't think anybody has bothered to make such a place. Could be cool, though.

>>5240371
what do you think the point of the rest of the story is? It's to build up and make the climax of your story have the impact you want it to. So if you don't know your theme then you don't know the climax of your story and if you don't even know what that is what are you doing adding anything else before you have those down?

>>5240379
Dang. :(
I wasn't even hoping for like a website or anything, just like a MEGA full of zipped folders of rough drafts.
I've got analysis paralysis, so its heartening for me to see comics that are past the planning stage.

>>5240395
>I've got analysis paralysis, so its heartening for me to see comics that are past the planning stage.
What are you stuck on anon? Maybe we can help.

>>5240377
but if you start from theme you aren't bound by them and you are picking the right ones versus randomly picking tropes like you were at a buffet.

revenge or justice isn't a theme. If your theme is one word or a broad topic, then you are doing the theme wrong. That's why people are coming up with their own interpretations of your story because you aren't really saying anything specific. Because if you were saying something specific about justice or revenge and you showed that through the drama of your story then it would be clear to people what you are saying.

>>5240395
The trick to making stuff is to not plan, in my experience.
Yeah it means more of that stuff will be shit but the more shit you make the more good stuff you make too.

But then I've been caught in the "yeah I'm just planning my next story (for the past year)" swamp more than once too.

>>5240402
>but if you start from theme you aren't bound by them and you are picking the right ones versus randomly picking tropes like you were at a buffet.
Anon, you're missing the point. You're *always* creating inferences from one of your "writing blocks" to another. You have to figure out how characters will align with the setting. You have to figure out how narrative will align with the theme. In order to do any of that, you have to tie the two things together via reflections or parallels that people believe to be reasonable--hence "inferences." No matter where you start--character, setting, plot, and yes, even theme--you have to do that in order to actually fuse these various portions together into something that makes sense and does not contradict itself. You don't "randomly" choose these things at any point, regardless of where you start. If you start with a theme and then "randomly" pick various connectors, then starting with theme didn't help you, and you have, in fact, instead *undermined* the reason behind choosing "theme" as the starting point in the first place, that being an easy set of connectors.

>revenge or justice isn't a theme.
I was using these as a basic example so that we could not get into the weeds of the rest of this paragraph. It has absolutely no bearing on anything that I was talking about.

>>5240400

Right now I'm trying to make a small adaptation of a very old folktale, but I wanted to flesh the story out a bit more to make it more interesting to read.
The story only has one character, the protagonist, but I wanted to add a few more characters to make his story more compelling.

So far, I've been watching a Youtube series on screenwriting and character creation, but if you guys had any resources on the subject, that would be great.
(I've read a lot of the other books that are mentioned in the OP)

>>5240377
anon just ignore the alice fag, he said he'd be perma leaving like 15 posts ago but he still argues like a retard because his only goal is to get the last say and nothing is going to change or open his mind.

i came itt to see manga pages but like 90% of the posts are these multiple schizo wall texts from this beaner. the guy's instagram literally says "one day i'll be famous" if that kind of narcissism isn't enough to prove what kind of an unholy faggot he is, then i don't know what is.

>>5240395
I think analysis paralysis comes from a lack of experience. Especially if you aim for a larger project that has more questions so more chances of failure, hence the over-analysis. I agree with this anon said >>5240409 but I would also add, to work on very short one-off comics so that it's not that big of a deal if you mess up. Your long dream project is basically the amalgamation of everything you have learned from making your one-offs

>>5240418
Not him but could you please try to keep your asspain in check? People discussing the process of writing should be right at home in a thread dedicated to the discussion of creating comics.

>>5240409
Same anon here.
I'm beginning to come to this realization, too. I've built up this perfect image in my head, with musical accompaniment and everything and its all so far beyond me at this point, that I've been afraid to start the grunt work.
I've been planning since October of last year, but I think I'm gonna just go with what I'm capable of now.

>>5240415
You have good taste in illustrators anon.

How small is "small?" A few pages? If that's the case, I'd honestly just say go nuts and bang it out and get feedback after the fact. It's a little difficult to tell whether or not your story is compelling or not without actually seeing it.

>>5240383
you just said you couldnt' write a character without the theme. I'm saying thats dumb because you can discover the theme by the character's actions.

>>5240428
sure, as soon as you stop sucking his dick. there's a point where there's discussion and then just pure unyielding faggotry like what he's doing. at this point, he's just arguing for the sake of his ego and less about contributing to the process of writing.

also i'd ease up on the cross hatching, it is super distracting and probably show more than tell and nix the square boxes and draw what is happening instead.

>>5240412
but without a theme you don't know the reason for creating inferences. You could come up with two characters that work so well together as adversaries but only one of them works with the really cool setting you imagined that also has this really cool scene you imagined in your head but the two characters don't fit in that cool scene. Now you are stuck trying to weigh which ones are important or cooler, if you can somehow make them all work together, or if you have to cut something out. The more you explore without knowing where you are going, the more time you will spend at dead ends.

>>5240418
I'm not alice fag, I guess you could call me McDonald fag as I am more closer to Brian McDonald's method than Truby's who has a similar method

You decide upon a theme. You're brainstorming, and develop your characters and plot as suitable, but at some point you find yourself asking, 'What if he didn't stay and persevere? What if he ran away and abandoned everything?' and suddenly you explore a completely new direction for the plot and end up with a completely different theme. Is the theme developed first or last in this scenario? Guess what; it doesn't fucking matter because theme, character, setting, plot and whatever other arbitrary distinction's primary purpose is the ANALYSIS of story. To argue that there is an empirical best way to tackle MAKING a story is absurd and should be laughed at.

>>5240424
> Especially if you aim for a larger project that has more questions so more chances of failure, hence the over-analysis.

That's exactly what happened. I'm ashamed, really. I think its a holdover from my student days. For many years, I was focused on doing things the "right" way, instead of just getting them done.

>but I would also add, to work on very short one-off comics so that it's not that big of a deal if you mess up. Your long dream project is basically the amalgamation of everything you have learned from making your one-offs

Yeah, I 'm thinking youre right. My grandiose project probably would have ended up in excess of 100 pages or more. As it is, the original folktale only occupies..15? Maybe less than 30 pages of text.

>>5240430
>You have good taste in illustrators anon.
Thank you! I got these from another board, but they really stuck out to me, since theyre all popular artists drawing each others characters.

>I'd honestly just say go nuts and bang it out and get feedback after the fact. It's a little difficult to tell whether or not your story is compelling or not without actually seeing it.

That's very true.
You know, I think thats settled something for me. I'll expand the protagonist a little bit, but I wont worry so much about the rest of the cast. I'll keep it simple until I figure out how story-telling actually works.

Thanks for your feedback, guys.

>>5240445
If you've gotten that far without realizing some of those things don't fit, then the issue is with something other than the process. The entire point is that you build outward from a starting position, regardless of where that starting position is; you don't "jump around." Everything that you've stated is the pitfalls of "jumping around" regardless of starting position, and not an issue with the starting position itself.

No one in this thread so far has managed to explain why starting from one position or another results in mismatched storytelling. They just assume that if you don't start from theme you somehow get a random grab-bag of irrelevant pieces, when in reality you should *always* be looking for things that mesh together nicely *regardless* of where you start. Even when you're working with theme, you might realize that some of the stuff you came up with might not fit the theme as nicely as you thought, or that your theme as written might not be nearly as interesting as some alternate themes that arise through the making of other material. What do you do? You cut stuff. Cutting is a part of writing, and there is no shame in cutting material. Everyone cuts.

>>5240453
This.

>>5240453
if you had actual conviction in your theme this wouldn't happen and yes you didn't start at theme you are just arguing the same thing with a technicality. You shouldn't pick your theme randomly, it should be something that matters to you personally or else what you are describing is something that might happen. But you still lose the argument as you are arguing to take the long route to the same destination. So if you started with a theme but learn through your characters you could have a better one, then learn to not start with weak themes to begin with.

>>5240456
>Thanks for your feedback, guys.

You're welcome anon. Be sure to keep at it and ensure that you keep yourself accountable. Feel free to post progress updates here as well if you want someone to yell you into shape when you're too paralyzed to do something.

>>5233966
Been lurking there, because it gives me something to read while I work on my own stuff. I did miss a few months of threads tho. I spoke to you a few times, back when you were working on Rosenrot and on insta.
I gotta say you came a really, really long way anon. I still remember one of the early drafts with that stupid pigeon scene. lol This read was enjoyable and the dialogue fun. I'd love to see the draft of this to see what kind of emotions you'd end up drawing and of course the pacing.
I think my only nitpick would be Allice's reaction towards at end when she receives Oz's cards. You wrote "joyful surprise", but I feel like a "soft/tearful guilt" would be more appropriate? It sounds stupid when I type it like that. Do you perhaps have a sketch of the emotion?


Ignoring the shit flinging. Does anybody else have anything to show? What are you guys working on?
And for anyone working on a long series. How do you guys organize all the drafts and sketches? Folders for each chapter or season?

>>5240440
>as soon as you stop sucking his dick
Lol.
>also i'd ease up on the cross hatching, it is super distracting and probably show more than tell and nix the square boxes and draw what is happening instead.
It's an unfinished page. A lot of information is told through narration because I was skipping most of all of this to get on with the story, because it's a porno comic not a grand adventure. In fact this is a page of a whole introductory chapter I skipped inking because it had no actual sex, so it was kind of pointless to waste my time on it.

>>5240463
>you wrote a good story but you're an unfaithful theme slut so you're wrong
The absolute fucking cope

>>5240463
>if you had actual conviction in your theme this wouldn't happen
The entire point is to not be a slave to a roadmap. If something fresh comes up, and you think it's better and fits with stuff you've already made, you take the opportunity.

It sounds more like you're afraid of throwing things out than you care about any one writing method.

>>5240470
no you just wasted more time than if you had started with the right one in the first place. And no you don't write everything all the way to the end and realize you need a different theme without having to change your story according to the new theme.

>>5240466
>it's coom
all the more reason to draw the bulges and whatever else it's supposed to be fetishizing. no one is going to read any of the wall texts in the squares.

>>5240465
>Does anybody else have anything to show? What are you guys working on?
I've been too wrapped up with life and freelancing to work on much comic stuff. I'm still hoping to come up with some little 20-page-ish one-shot that I can just put out somewhere for free, maybe.

I'm having fun illustrating in my downtime though.

>>5240478
That would be why I didn't finish it and instead skipped to the parts people would be reading for, yeah.

>>5240486
Not him, but I think it's important to at least have an even amount of panel quality. The whiplash will likely catch readers off-guard, especially when you eventually get to a high level of visual fidelity in which drop-offs become very easy to notice (really really not trying to take a dig at you here, sorry anon. I do think you will get to that point eventually).

>>5240477
Oh you're right. I forgot to read the fine print for StoryTelling™ and it clearly states that starting from anything other than Theme© will take precisely 1.625x longer to write, as governed by StoryTelling™ law.

>>5240474
>The entire point is to not be a slave to a roadmap.

that is ultimately your problem, you are just afraid of commitment because you think it will stifle creativity or give you fewer options but that's far from the truth. It's actually freeing because you know where you are going and don't have to second guess yourself. This idea of happy accidents and wanting to explore some nebulous idea is never transferred to the audience. It's entirely selfish as a writing experience but it doesn't really consider who your audience is which is what the story is for. They aren't going to see what was a happy accident or what have you. You are basically just arguing for the sake of what is the most fun method to use without really taking the audience into consideration.

>>5240495
>you are just afraid of commitment
You commit to the things you *like* anon, oh my god.

>>5240494
I would like you to argue the contrary as that would be fun to see. Don't know how you could right quicker if your method involves having to cut out a bunch of stuff

>>5240486
i got bored reading your excuses half way and had to read again to get what you were talking about; why did you post a page you axed? i assumed it was progress for your comic and i would've honestly skipped over your work if i didn't see my (You) because the page looked weak in general.

>>5240498
Not him, but this isn't a Full Story Speedrun Any% thread. It's about arriving at something interesting, cohesive, and in line with your expectations. It's not about banging out something as fast as possible.

>>5240496
which is a huge waste of time to change your entire story every time something really cool gets "discovered". You are writing scripts not books, this whole idea of taking five years off to find yourself in a house in the middle of nowhere to make your grand opus seems to really take hold of you people. You guys are overly romanticizing the writing process

>>5240501
> It's about arriving at something interesting, cohesive, and in line with your expectations

boy do I got a method for you for the best way of going about that

>>5240507
>the best way
I can't do this anymore.

>>5240499
>why did you post a page you axed?
To prove I wasn't just the alice guy samefagging. And because you were complaining that nobody was posting any pages.

>>5240498
I decide on the theme of revenge. Next I spend a whole bunch of time exploring different plots and different characters and different settings for which would best showcase revenge in the way I want it to. Which of course is much more efficient than deciding on a setting then spending time exploring different characters, different plots and different themes. It's a fucking brainstorm, it doesn't fucking matter what you start with.

The first great /mmg/ civil war

>>5240511
>Okay I started with theme, then I explore that theme, see it doesn't matter where you start with

Okay I admit your point went over my head

>>5240482
Oh, nice! Glad your freelancing is working out. Are you still making the forest comic, or will you write something new? The mage has a very Black mage feel to him.

>>5240466
I remember your stuff from the contest days. At least I think? Guessing by the style only. I know you said it's coom, but where do you post? Atm, I'm contemplating making a few shorts and only really have Medibang or Pixiv that sound interesting enough to post on.

>>5240514
kek

>>5240514
Something I hope that everyone realizes is that even though this is a massive fight that's pissing everyone off, it's still far more coordinated and has far more interesting things to say than the debates of the rest of /ic/.

Somehow, even at its worst, this thread is better than most other threads.

>proven method that works by established professionals and film directors and writers

>I don't have hardly any experience but that doesn't sound right man

>>5240509
>And because you were complaining that nobody was posting any pages.
kek well i didn't mean people's literal scrap pile, i wanted to see real progress and how people are going about their stories but i'll give you points for actually posting something.

i don't get why you'd cross hatch on a rough but whatever this isn't a hill i'm going to die on.

>>5240517
>I remember your stuff from the contest days. At least I think? Guessing by the style only.
You've probably got me pinned, I don't remember anybody else posting with a similar style.
>I know you said it's coom, but where do you post?
https://dingleburied.newgrounds.com/
Working on storyboarding the first chapter of a SFW series currently, so the NSFW socials will be dead for a little while.
I'd post SFW socials but they're dead as fuck right now and I'll be posting this stuff later when it's in a state where it can be critiqued anyway, so I'll just post them then.

>>5240517
>Oh, nice! Glad your freelancing is working out. Are you still making the forest comic, or will you write something new? The mage has a very Black mage feel to him.
I'm surprised you knew that was me actually! Though, I guess stylistically, this image is rather consistent with that other stuff.

I still would really like to finish the one I started on. Since I was originally going to do it for Tezuka it's 54 pages, but I was thinking of splitting it into 15-20 page increments and doing maybe closer to 70-75 pages instead so I could do a little more with the story and the character development in it. That's a big undertaking though, so I think I might try something shorter in order to really get myself back into the headspace needed to bang out regular page content. For some reason doing concept art for freelance stuff is way easier on my brain than sitting down and doing comic pages even though it's really not that far off in terms of the technical elements needed.

Either way, I think that once the spring rolls around and I start seeing plants and trees and flowers and can start going on forest walks without freezing again, I think I'll try and use that natural inspiration to get at least one segment of that story out, assuming I don't have some permanent job at that point.

>>5240526
>i don't get why you'd cross hatch on a rough but whatever this isn't a hill i'm going to die on.
It's because it's not a rough. I started inking it then stopped when I realized I didn't want to spend a month or two inking something nobody will ever care about.

>>5240533
>>5240517
Also since I forgot to say it in my post, thank you!

>>5240514
>>5240518
are manga making threads really that new? i'm kind of new to these threads.

anyways what does everyone think of wlop's story? to be super frank i just speed read it and look at his pretty paintings, i lost interest in his story when his characters kept calling the ice princess pretty. i kinda do like the aspect of the black mummy dude ending up with her though.

anyone else have similar pairings like that in their manga?

>>5240538
>are manga making threads really that new?
They were started early last year around the time the Tezuka Manga Contest was announced. I'm not sure how "new" that is in the grand scheme of /ic/ stickies, but there are definitely way older thread series that have been running for a long time.

>anyways what does everyone think of wlop's story?
I tried reading it briefly for the art but nothing gripped me enough to stick with it.

>>5240542
>They were started early last year
yeah that's pretty new at least to me. didn't come back to /ic/ until maybe a month or so ago but deff didn't see these kinda threads before my break from 4chan.

>I tried reading it briefly for the art but nothing gripped me enough to stick with it.
honestly my problem with most webcomics, at this point i just scroll for the pretty pics and hope that they draw enough panels to convey the story enough without reading lol. or if they have a character that catches my eye or something, i'll read for that even if the story is shitty.

i will ask again; if anyone has monster/freaky looking dudes with pretty feminine girl pairings i will be a loyal reader.

>>5240266
One of the very first things you should do as a writer is check your ego and stop writing for “your tastes.” I’m writing this for YA/Teenagers/Kids. Which is inevitably going to lead to a lot of people who’ve consumed a large amount of media from the medium to go “ugh, this is cliche.” Like they do for pretty much every mainstream shounen. And that’s fine. Taste is developed through experience, and it’s something I take into account when I share stuff. That said, because this thread is geared toward critique, I assumed more people would have been capable of separating their personal tastes for objective critique, and given feedback based on what the story is trying to achieve and how well it executes in that regard.

The conclusion I got from the debate that went in ITT is that several users here are wholly incapable of that.

>>5240270
I’ll take that into account, but again, I think that comes down to taste. The issue with the last one is exactly why I say “start with theme” the last one didn’t, thus, the theme of “zen” felt very tacked on as it didn’t resonate with the emotional conflict and made the climax come off as forced. In this story, the entire thing is built around the theme of fate, and poses a challenging question which is given a definite answer when Alice literal kills the embodiment of fate. This is why, I feel the emotional punch of the climax hits WAY harder than the last. Especially since this time too there are actual stakes with the promise that “Oz will die” in the chapter.

We’ll see what Fukuda says, but considering his issues in the last one were “what motivates Alice?” and “who is Oz?” As well as the lack of worldbuilding, I think he’ll much prefer this version. We’ll see though.

>>5240321
I’ve checked myself out from the argument entirely. Write however you want to write.

>>5240465
Thanks man. Yeah, a lot of the notes are basically just that “notes that I’ll swap as I alter and move around stuff when drafting.” I’m currently 17/50 pages through the name. Just finished the bridge collapse, so that’s coming along well. Hopefully it’ll be done by the weekend so I can email it to Fukuda.

As for what her reaction will be. If you’ve read Atelier of the Witch Hat. Something kinda like the ending of that.

>>5240546
>honestly my problem with most webcomics
Personally I find that a lot of them are attempting to be something else rather than playing to their own strengths or the strengths of the artist and / or writer. It's cool that you're trying to be My Hero Academia or Bleach or The Devil is a Part-Timer or whatever, but if those things already exist, and are better, I'm just going to go look at those things instead if I really want that kind of story.

Though, I do think that we have the algorithm-driven methodology of social media and comic-hosting sites to thank at least in part for that, since if you look at something like LINE Webtoon it's pretty clear what kind of audience has ultimately been cultivated as a result of certain algorithm factors.

>>5240550
>One of the very first things you should do as a writer is check your ego and stop writing for “your tastes.”...The conclusion I got from the debate that went in ITT is that several users here are wholly incapable of that.

You're kinda doing it again right now though. You're saying that you've put your ego away but it's really coming across as being at the forefront right now.

I dunno man. It's seriously offputting. Nobody even called your stuff cliche or said your taste is bad.

>>5240550
>I’ve checked myself out from the argument entirely. Write however you want to write.
>>>>The conclusion I got from the debate that went in ITT is that several users here are wholly incapable of that.
My lord half the people you were arguing with were mature enough to realize getting the last word wasn't worth the effort. You've been acting like a petulant high schooler this entire thread, grow up.

>>5240555
>but if those things already exist, and are better, I'm just going to go look at those things instead if I really want that kind of story.
yep, pretty much agree. it's why i can't read shit like solo leveling and whatever else is critically acclaimed on webtoons or whatever.

>LINE Webtoon
so is there a point to anyone posting their stuff to webtoons if all they promote is that girly shit? i mean i like a good shojo here and there, but even those are pretty bad or bland. guess it comes around to the age old question, where the hell do people who don't fit in that genre post their comics and have a chance to be promoted/boosted?

>>5240565
>where the hell do people who don't fit in that genre post their comics and have a chance to be promoted/boosted?
Honestly, kinda nowhere, which is why you should just post and give it your best shot anyway. One thing to keep in mind is that if you cultivate a fervent enough fanbase, they will spread your stuff to the hills with everything they've got, and regardless of whether or not they're successful in doing that, chances are they'll be willing to support you however they can (including financially) regardless. You don't need a massive audience to succeed sometimes.

>so is there a point to anyone posting their stuff to webtoons if all they promote is that girly shit?
You might as well give it a shot. There are shonen-style series that do well on it and are promoted / given prime featuring, though your initial readerbase is going to be smaller than it would be for romance stuff, it looks like.

>>5240531
Thanks. Not a coomer, but I'll give it a read. Seems like your paneling improved. Maybe set some time aside to refine your hatching. I think it'd really bring your work out more. Especially for things like the environment.

>>5240533
I think you'll remember me too when I mention that I send you some of my drafts and dialogue to read through.
>For some reason doing concept art for freelance stuff is way easier on my brain than sitting down and doing comic pages even though it's really not that far off in terms of the technical elements needed.
Yeah, I get the feeling. Been doing a lot of writing, but neglecting doing actual comic drafts. Going to to focus on that now that I have time to focus on my story again.
>assuming I don't have some permanent job at that point.
Good luck going forward either way.

>>5240552
>As for what her reaction will be. If you’ve read Atelier of the Witch Hat. Something kinda like the ending of that.
Ah, I have a few of the books. But, wasn't keeping up if it concluded or not. Can you direct me to the chapter? I don't mind spoilers atm.

>>5240565
Basically this >>5240571. What kind of story are you aiming for?

>>5240573
>I think you'll remember me too when I mention that I send you some of my drafts and dialogue to read through.
Oh, I do remember you! How have things been going? I remember your material being quite promising, so I hope you've been happy with whatever progress you've been making in the interim, even if things have been going a bit slow in places.

>>5240571
thanks. it's honestly kind of weird how there isn't something that's more seinen/shonen geared for a webcomic website or something that doesn't hole themselves in a specific niche like line....

i get tired of looking at those 4 panel daily comics and i'm up to read something darker, exciting and interesting that doesn't have cookie cutter kpop looking characters or some deku derivative. yknow, something less "safe" and more experimental.

>>5240560
No, you don’t understand. What I’m saying is when you write and give critique, you need to put aside your tastes and opinions about things.

For example, do I LIKE MHA or Kimetsu? The truth is.... no. I don’t. The stories aren’t entertaining to me cause I’ve already read dozens just like them. Does this mean those stories are “trash?”

Absolutely not.

See? I need to separate myself from my work and the work of others, and learn to view it from the lens of their intended audience. If you intend to write, this is something you need to learn to do, for multiple reasons. For one, if you’re constantly being overly critical of every piece of media you come across because then you’ll never stop to properly inspect and analyze why they’re so successful. You’ll just chalk it up to “well normies have shit taste” to save your ego, and write from that mindset.

It’s the same thing when giving critique on writing. People who give people feedback on what they perceive is how the story should go based on their personal taste are actually COUNTERPRODUCTIVE for people who wanna learn how to write. Doubly true for discovery writers.

I’m not saying anyone ITT did that, saying “it’s cliche is a perfectly valid opinion that holds merit.” It tells me, ok, this story is doing what it needs to if this person feels this way.” That said, the discussion we just had and the inability of do many people to separate opinion from fact during it, tells me a lot of people ITT are inadequately prepared for writing feedback, and in turn makes this thread about as useful as simply showing close friends or family to beta read.

Which is disappointing cause it wasn’t like that a couple months ago, but whatever.

>>5240573
>Can you direct me to the chapter?
End of Ch.1. Something kinda like that.

>>5240583
>That said, the discussion we just had and the inability of do many people to separate opinion from fact during it, tells me a lot of people ITT are inadequately prepared for writing feedback, and in turn makes this thread about as useful as simply showing close friends or family to beta read.
Honestly, it really sounds like you just weren't listening to what other people had to say, or just disagreed to the point where you're willing to write off any and all future opinions of your work posted in this thread as a result.

I can't stop you if it's what you want to do, but honestly, even though I keep saying that I support you in your endeavors, you're making it hard to keep saying that. I was going to consider reading your pilot and offering some thoughts, but if you're going to write people off despite taking the time to offer a breakdown, I'm not sure what the point would be.

>>5240588
>Honestly, it really sounds like you just weren't listening to what other people had to say, or just disagreed to the point where you're willing to write off any and all future opinions of your work posted in this thread as a result.
No one ever proposed a valid counter argument with examples. If I missed one feel free to show me, but everything that argued against me was a direct refutation based on opinion and with a seeming excessive lack of experience.

People were telling me I was wrong, when I, critiquing my own work, was able to pinpoint why starting anywhere but from theme is a bad idea.

You can disagree with me if you like, but I’m not going to take anything you say seriously if you’re going to challenge the advice of industry professionals and my own experience with your opinions.

As for my own work. Feel free to tear it a new asshole. That said, I am going to take any and all feedback with a grain of salt especially if it’s not citing examples of how story structure works. Ergo, pacing, emotional impact, dialogue, theme, character, etc... saying, “I don’t like it.” Is just like, “well, cool. You can’t appeal to everyone, and shouldn’t try.”

>>5240588
Post whatever feedback you want man. But in truth, I am tired of getting dogpiled by a bunch of people who are pretending to know more than they actually do. I apologize if I’m cranky, but this entire thread has been nothing but constant bickering with people who haven’t even bothered to listen to what I say.

I’m ok with contrasting opinions, but a compelling argument needs to be rooted in examples. Which I’ve provided only to be attacked with opinions and supposition from people who seem to lack a lot of experience.

It’s like, I discovered myself why starting anywhere else but from theme was bad by critiquing my own work and applying knowledge from industry pros, and that personal experience gets challenged by “well, in MY opinion.” No examples, no citations, no nothing. After repeating yourself 50 times and carefully explaining yourself for the sake of others, and realizing everything you say falls on deaf ears, sorry to say if I’m at least “a little irritated.”

>>5240578
It could always be better, but I'm happy with what I have so far. And I absolutely plan on changing some of those outfits like you suggested too.

>>5240585
I see. I think that works quite well. A very touching ending.

i've come to the conclusion that i need to draw a one-shot or something because i feel like i just need to put something out to feel out my story writing/manga skills, and just to "fucking do it".

my question is, how do you guys go about this? do you write a script or just jump straight to story boarding? i'm mostly thinking to do this because i'm burned out from writing for months on end, and now i'm getting impatient and want to produce something worth showing.

>>5240623
I used to write a full on screenplay then do storyboards.

But once I got used to storyboarding I found the screenplay to be really irritating, since I ended up just drawing on the fly anyways. I'm not really able to visualize the panels and shots with words, so I have to do it on the paper.

So, I first lay out my scenes, sequences, acts. Then I "treat" each one to a full treatment, writing it out in bullet-point form. I write what happens and I know the endings. Then I just storyboard. The storyboard takes the place of the script.

>>5240623
>my question is, how do you guys go about this? do you write a script or just jump straight to story boarding? i'm mostly thinking to do this because i'm burned out from writing for months on end, and now i'm getting impatient and want to produce something worth showing.
I can't speak for anyone else, but the more I try to visualize something beforehand the worse I feel it turns out. On the other hand I feel much better about the stuff I wrote, sketched then inked in the span of an hour with only vague, tentative plans for what's going to happen even on the very next page.
Don't take this as advice though because it's probably personal.

>>5240662
thanks i think we have a similar approach in how to churn these things out (except i never got to the story boarding part....) bullet point treatment sounds feasible though, better than writing the whole script out anyways. thanks again!

>>5240684
i'm kind of at this part where i'm pretty sure my first "public" story is going to be shit no matter what, so this is a risk i am willing to take just to have something to show and truly participate in these threads.

thanks for your input anon, i'm a pretty fast sketcher/inker, so hopefully this isn't too big of a loss in investment. i just honestly want to see if people will read/look at my shit.

>>5240623
I do screenplay first cause I need to make sure all the story mechanics are working well before drawing anything. This way you ensure you never reach the end of your storyboard and realize it’s mechanically fucked and have to back a redraw most of it, or worse yet, become overly attached to some scenes that might not work due to sunken cost fallacy. Especially since it’s faster to write than draw. Once I’m sure it all works I move over to storyboard and focus on how it looks. Cinematography, page comp, etc... using the screenplay as a sort of guideline.

>>5240432
Theme dictates your character’s actions you asshat, not the other way around.

>>5240453
>What if he didn't stay and persevere? What if he ran away and abandoned everything?' and suddenly you explore a completely new direction for the plot and end up with a completely different theme.
You’ve never written a story in your life, have you?

If you come across a “new direction“ that challenges your theme, the very first thing you do is assess if this is truly worth it based on the message you’re trying to convey. Otherwise you’re going to piss readers off. Subversion for the sake of subversion is retarded, and you’re not clever for trying to do it for the twist. Promise. Progress. Payoff. This is how readers engage with a story. Break those, and you’re guaranteed to piss people off. If your story is about exploring the actions of a hero who fails and gives up, then you write it around that theme. If your story is about a hero fighting his hardest, and then you go “what a twist!!” and flip the script at the last minute, everyone is going to be rightfully angry at you, because it’s not what you promised setting out.

>>5240245
I do agree with you about storytelling but your Alice story was still boring and generic af, couldn't figure out a theme from it

>>5240823
I liked it.

>>5240819
??? From the way you're speaking it feels as though you don't even really understand what theme actually is.

>>5240819
Not the anon that you're speaking to, but it's very clear that they're speaking from a position of initial work --> revelation --> total revision, rather than just dropping in some sort of twist ending for kicks.

>>5240823
Pyw

>>5240845
And that’s exactly what I’m saying. Changing the theme means rewriting the entire thing completely. It’s not a revision, it’s a complete rewrite. If you come to “this could be a good idea.” At which you either scrap what you’ve got and start over from there, or you write that idea down for later and press on with your current story. You can’t switch gears halfway, and it’s not a revision. Theme dictates everything, so you’d have to redo pretty much everything.

>>5240850
Anon, the theme is the product of the plot. The only thing that matters is the natural progression of the plot, and a plot can progress in many ways. They're not even talking about reworking an entire draft, the original anon literally said brainstorming yet you manage to spit out such a retarded take anyway.

>>5240850
>Theme dictates everything, so you’d have to redo pretty much everything.
If the rewritten product is superior, why is this bad? Why is scrapping stuff such a horrendous notion here?

>>5240868
Not him but the discussion from the start was which aspect of the work is best starting point. Ideally you arrive at the superior product without doing a bunch of work that is then scrapped.

>>5240872
>Ideally you arrive at the superior product without doing a bunch of work that is then scrapped.
Except if you never do any exploring (thus creating alternate possibilities that must then be scrapped) you'll never know that you've actually managed to do this at all because you will have no points of reference with which to gauge whether or not the choices you went with are better than the choices you could have taken.

That's why people are arguing that this entire conversation is really stupid. You should be exploring no matter what you're doing.

>>5240874

When working with theme you still do exploring since you are trying to find the best thing that fits the theme so you will obviously come up with things that don't fit. The difference is you know what you are looking for and what you are trying to accomplish.

>>5240883
>When working with theme you still do exploring since you are trying to find the best thing that fits the theme so you will obviously come up with things that don't fit.
Same thing for every other starting point. This is inherently madlib-able.

>The difference is you know what you are looking for and what you are trying to accomplish.
Not necessarily any more or any less than you would for anything else. I don't think you or anyone else could immediately tell me the Number One Absolutely Best Way to frame any theme I spitball at you. You still have to look, find, discount, consider, weigh, and eventually choose.

>>5240888
>Same thing for every other starting point. This is inherently madlib-able.

no since without a theme you are exploring things that would not have needed to be explored. The other guy argued that you arrive at the same spot without work that is then scrapped. Which you then replied that no exploring is bad which I then said you still do some exploring and no one was ruling that out completely. It seems you are just being contrarian without any real understanding.

>Not necessarily any more or any less than you would for anything else. I don't think you or anyone else could immediately tell me the Number One Absolutely Best Way to frame any theme I spitball at you. You still have to look, find, discount, consider, weigh, and eventually choose.

that isn't what anyone was saying that every theme has the best way to frame, I think you are grossly misunderstanding the points being argued here. You seem to be under the notion that once you pick a theme it all magically is figured out for you and that isn't the case. It's still a headache, it is still hard work, you are still going to get frustrated. The only difference is having a foundation makes the process much easier.

>>5240895
If you don't choose your setting first, then you're wasting time exploring different settings you wouldn't have need to explore. If you don't choose your characters first, you're wasting time exploring different characters you wouldn't needed to have explored. If you don't choose plot first, you're wasting time exploring different plots you wouldn't needed to have explored.

>>5240895
>I think you are grossly misunderstanding the points being argued here. You seem to be under the notion that once you pick a theme it all magically is figured out for you and that isn't the case.
People are unironically arguing that picking a theme first makes you figure things out faster and with less time than other starting points For Some Reason. This is literal magical thinking.

>The only difference is having a foundation makes the process much easier.
What we're arguing is that this foundation can be *a variety of different things besides a single chosen theme.* It can be one of the other portions of the writing process, or a combination thereof. You guys are, unironically, arguing that there is some nature to "theme" that makes everything else "easier to figure out" without actually stating what it is about "theme" that makes this the case.

> It seems you are just being contrarian without any real understanding.
No. I'm arguing that "no way is best." You are interpreting this as "my way is best." I am *agreeing* with you here, and saying that it can be extended to *any* starting point.

>no since without a theme you are exploring things that would not have needed to be explored.
>When working with theme you still do exploring since you are trying to find the best thing that fits the theme so you will obviously come up with things that don't fit.

Pick one.

>>5240856
>Anon, the theme is the product of the plot
I don’t know where you got this ridiculous notion from. As a reader you experience it that way, yes. But as a writer, your plot is a product of your characters, which is a product of their beliefs, which is a product of your theme.

>>5240903
No because setting is far more malleable and can easily be accommodated and changed to suit the rest of your story. Theme is the opposite. Change the theme, and you have to change everything else.

>>5240910
>Change the theme, and you have to change everything else.
Alternatively you can *change the frikkin theme to fit everything else* holy SHIT anon

Jesus, what's with the sudden surge of replies

>>5240913
then you have a weak theme and a weak story

>>5240937
>then you have a weak theme and a weak story
No, because you choose your theme based on all the parallels that are now present elsewhere, thus reinforcing the totality of the narrative.

I'm not going to convince you of this though, so I'm bowing out.

>>5240964
Shit, meant this for >>5240943

>>5240907

>People are unironically arguing that picking a theme first makes you figure things out faster and with less time than other starting points For Some Reason. This is literal magical thinking.

it does and it isn't magic, storytellers have been doing this since before the epic of gilgamesh because people told stories for a reason, not entertainment and their reason was their theme.

>What we're arguing is that this foundation can be *a variety of different things besides a single chosen theme.* It can be one of the other portions of the writing process, or a combination thereof. You guys are, unironically, arguing that there is some nature to "theme" that makes everything else "easier to figure out" without actually stating what it is about "theme" that makes this the case.

If I have a theme then I already know what my character arc is since the main character(s) arc is there to prove the theme. If I have a theme then I already know a good antithesis of that theme and that is my antagonist. My theme could also have arguably multiple outcomes so those are all my secondary characters, mirror characters, henchmen, sidekicks, etc. They are all there to help prove the theme. The construction of all these characters and how they interact to prove the theme in time is the plot. You can't get this same effect by starting with a setting or a plot or a character. Starting with a setting doesn't give me a plot or a character as any decision from that point would be arbitrary.

>Pick one.

I don't see how those two contradict. The amount of needless exploration is greatly removed when starting with theme

>>5240964
>>5240969

so you are trying to convince me to write my entire story and hope that there are enough parallels to warrant some kind of theme, how is that not putting the cart before the horse?

>people didn't tell stories for entertainment

>>5240964
You can’t because your theme literally ties all the elements of your story together you fucking imbecile.

>>5240984
They didn’t. Stories are guides to life. Just because you’re too stupid to get this point doesn’t change the fact that a story needs a reason to be told, ergo a theme. You stupid pretentious fucking nerd. God, I hate you.

>>5240996
you don't know what theme is you fucking idiot.

>>5240998
>You stupid pretentious fucking nerd
>never have people ever told stories for fun

>>5240999
No, it’s you who clearly don’t understand it or what’s being talked about here. Theme isn’t “some flavor you add to your story.” Theme refers to the moral argument, the string that ties the entire fucking story together and your reason for even writing it in the first fucking place. Tell me, what’s so difficult to grasp about this simple concept?

>>5240972
>If I have a theme then I already know what my character arc is since the main character(s) arc is there to prove the theme. If I have a theme then I already know a good antithesis of that theme and that is my antagonist. My theme could also have arguably multiple outcomes so those are all my secondary characters, mirror characters, henchmen, sidekicks, etc. They are all there to help prove the theme. The construction of all these characters and how they interact to prove the theme in time is the plot. You can't get this same effect by starting with a setting or a plot or a character. Starting with a setting doesn't give me a plot or a character as any decision from that point would be arbitrary.
You summed it up perfectly with this. Granted, Alice anon said pretty much the same thing earlier (albeit in a more roundabout way), and people still didn’t get it.

I get the feeling these people arguing are approaching this from the perspective of a reader, from which setting seems like the foundation, but anyone who’s ever written a story knows theme is actually the foundation, as, just like how you expressed it, it literally dictates every single aspect of the story.

>>5240937
There’s a couple of retards in the thread who don’t understand what theme is and feel like being contrarians and arguing against the wisdom of screenwriters, directors, authors, editors, and so on... all who say you should begin writing from theme.

They could have dropped this shit ages ago, but they just HAVE to get the last word in despite having literally nothing to contribute despite contrarianism.

>>5241009
>people arguing are approaching this from the perspective of a reader
Not that guy. But how about people running their mouths post their works?

>>5241015
Would be nice if people did that, yes. So far only one guy has.

New thread.

>>5241064
>>5241064
>>5241064
>>5241064
>>5241064

>>5239393
>Brainlet faggot that lacks reading comprehension and anysort of knowledge to present an argument resorts to "pyw"
kek, you can't make this shit up.

Is it worth it switching to shoulder?