/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

just draw bro

>>5157024
composition is secondary to geometry and proportions

>>5157063
Yes composition in its abstract sense is secondary to the fundamentals. Such as placing objects within a scene to convey emotion, shape and lines of action to draw the veiwers eyes to a specific point.

But the literal and non abstract practice of capturing space is the foundation for all other foundations. And this is the first concept taught in composition.

Try drawing a water bottle from refrence.pick any object you want.

Now after your done try drawing that. Same refrence but this time put it inside a picture area. Your brain will flip on a switch and all of a sudden your no longer guessing. A strange feeling of familiarity will come over you. Its this feeling that bettyedwards misunderstood as the right side of the brain. Its actually your brain refrencing space and the rules that govern that space such as value, proportion,shape,size, form etcc..

>>5157102
drawing a picture from reference, by measuring its geometry and proportions, or by measuring negative and positive spaces are both valid ways of drawing something. Its just that the second one is faster and more fluid, but the first one teaches you to turn that object in 3d faster.

Not doing one or the other is just drawing with the hope that your drawing magically comes out right, and its going to do, 2 or 3 times out of 100. Which can put you in the fake hope that you are on the right track.

But the proper way of learning to draw something is by measuring. Those which dont measure and make good drawings 9 times out if 10, reach that point by drawing so much with construction that subject, that they dont need it anymore, they already know the end result, or they did or used to do the measuring in their head. But some form of measuring has been done.

Our problem is that we consider that we have to do endless drawings without any form of constructions to reach that desired point of being able to draw without constructions. And the fact that there exists forms of measuring which have good results, but are never going to teach you to draw without them, doesnt help at killing this bad mentality.

Nice.

PYW before and after discovering this for an example please

>>5157596
Oh, and for /beg/s reading this, no, doing a circle and drawing a + on it its not construction. Not the way most /beg/s do atleast. Way to many times I see drawings with a circle underneath it, but the drawing doesnt respect it at all.

Yes, construction is just a guide line which doent have to be respected 100% (another mistake some /beg/s fall in), but disregarding it totally, its just drawing it for the sake of saying you constructed your drawing.

For your constructions/ measurings to be actual constructions/ measurings, you have to actually measure something. For example, if you notice somebody's nose is at the half of their face, then on the space on your paper when you decided to put the face, you put a sign at the half of it, and theres going to be the nose. The single situations in which you are not going to respect your own construction, is when you noticed you didnt put the sign at the actual half, or when you decide against putting the nose at the half of the face.

Here

https://youtu.be/93yhVbtec2I

>>5157596
>>5157102
>>5157024
There might be some truth to this since I heard that framing is actually the first thing taught in Russian art schools

I dont get what the fuck you are talking about. Like grids or just actual frames as in borders of the drawing?

>>5157602
I am >>5157102 >>5157596 >>5157621
First, a drawing from like a year and a half ago. One of those drawing from where I dont know proper constructions, but I get lucky and the final drawing is decent. But its a rare one and I cant replicate not evet at 10% quality from another angle. Notice the almost but not quite proportions on legs, arms, and shoulders.

1/3

>>5157024
Post your work while you're up there grandstanding about your infinite knowledge

>>5157653
Dunning Kruger.

>>5157653
>>5157102 is somebody else, that was a wrong (you), meant to click on >>5157063
This is a recent sketch, a few weeks old, also from ref, but this time I focused on geometry and proportions, so getting a half decent drawing was almost guarantied, not a game of chance, and by learning the proportions and the basic shapes, I could have draw this from other angles too, right after I finish those sketches and did not forget the proportions, not only how they are shown in ref. But now, after time has passed, I would have to redo them to remember the proportions. But I could do it faster because I already did the measuring last time.

2/3

>>5157662
now a few months old drawing, also ref. Here I focused on some angles I chose, which I considered where more informing, and getting the lengths right. Way more happy with proportions in this one than >>5157653. And again, this was a drawing I know from the star is going to be decent, and it was not a one of few which got lucky, and got close to ref.

>>5157657
>Dunning Kruger.
You are literally respond to the picture I said I draw before I learned what I am talking about right now.

>>5157655
Knowledge is lost along the way, somebody at the peak of the mountain might forget how he started the journey. Also good luck finding such a person shitposting on a mongolian electronic gaming discussion council, or taking his shitpost seriously.

>>5157662
>>5157679
also gj windows, I rotated pictures on my pc, but on 4chan they are the same

Or you could just draw what you like and not copy someone else.

>>5157679
>>5157662
>>5157653
Your last sketch looks pretty good not gonna lie
But what does any of this have to do with framing and composition?

>>5157653
>>5157024
>>5157679
>OP talks big about composition - something I personally really agree with
>Goes on to draw nothing but loose sketches of individual subjects floating in empty space
/ic/ was a mistake

>>5157639
Not op. Again >>5157679. Grids are good for like, drawing very swirly things, and some bigger grids, like 2x2, or 4x4 could help you by giving smaller frames for ref, but too small grinds, and you are going to learn nothing. And yes, frames are a good measuring tool, you can create negative spaces with them, and assure yourself you dont fuck up too much. Frames are basically the bigger grid you can have, and you use a frame the same way you would use a grid.

At the end of the day, the more measurings you do, the better your drawing is going to end. The more you draw using measurings, the more you will be able to skip some, do some quicker, or learn them inside out. All of those are examples of measuring techniques, and you should try as many, and stick with that you like.

>>5157700
there is no framing and composition per see, since they are just drawings floating on page, but the technique of measuring angles, lengths, and proportions to reach those final drawings, are all used in composition and framing, as I saw in OP pic. I jump in this discussion, defending OP and saying those are legitimate ways of learning to draw, because I use angles lengths, and proportions to analyze the subject. My focus is not on the composition itself, true.

Here, another drawing from ref, where I used the framing of the picture to create limitations and position landmarks on the page correctly, then I just connected those and add in the rest of details by eye balling. Its kind of the extreme method, but its good to try atleast once, to get you thru the process to think like this.

>>5157726
Agreed. The dilettanteism in this board has risen dramatically.

>>5157729
>that drawing
Jesus christ. You nerds are way overthinking this stuff.

>>5157653
>>5157662
>>5157679
>>5157729
Observing flat shapes is only the beginning. It's an important beginning, but you will need further instruction in perspective, construction, and anatomy. Also, observing flat shapes has very little to do with composition. Composition is more about organizing elements to create a feeling or tell a story, not just about pleasing designs (although thats a small part of it)

I give up trying to understand this. You are just rambling.

>>5157763
I know that composition is basically different than what I am talking, but they have the same fundamentals, would you not say so? I was just defending OP by giving my take on it. Its not my fault he didnt post his stuff to see examples of actual composition.

>>5157773
A lot of arguing in art is just about our own personal definitions. I got in huge arguments with people in the past few weeks just over whether gesture was important or not. Turns out we had the same opinions but we defined our terms differently.

I think you should just draw a lot and enjoy drawing. that goes for everyone. When you draw what you see you build your knowledge. When you draw from imagination you build your ideas and ability to be creative. Composition is all about clarity and building your ideas, while observing shapes is completely different. Drawing what you see is all about input, like you're eating food. But if you're going to define composition differently then there's no reason for us to argue.

>>5157729
But then what does any of this has to do with what OP says? Yeah no shit measuring length and angles and proportionsis important. Thats what literally everyone on this board tries to do. Its the very first thing mentioned in the sticky. Do you honestly think that you are the only one doing that? What are you even trying to say?
What do you mean its used in composition in framing? Fucking pencil is used in composition and framing so what? Paper too. What the fuck is your point?
You are not defending the OP because he's talking about completely different things. You are not saying anything new becausr its literally the first 5 pages of ic sticky. Why are you posting all this?

>>5157662
>>5157653
So is 5157102 you or not?

>>5157781
I think you are right. The silhouette of a subject can be its frame, and the details inside the frame its design, but whatever, I am deviating too much from what you want to discuss.

>>5157784
geez, sorry for deviating from the subject, but who cares if its in the first 5 pages of sticky? you know allmost all begs skip that part to get to the end? I feel this has to be repeated more often. Its obvious to us, it was not obvious to me 2 years ago, and I know theres more anons in this boat. If I have to be an ass to /int/ to repeat more often than necesarry what /beg/s have to hear, then so be it.

I am going to leave now, to let you discuss composition.

>>5157794
no, most likely is OP, I just clicked on his comment wrong when I said I am him

You guys do know that dude posting is not me right? Lol.

>>5157802
Alright now Im starting to make sense of this thread
It looked like shizo rambling to me
Well yeah, measuting is important
Also
>>5157729
>some bigger grids, like 2x2, or 4x4
What would a smaller than 2x2 grid even look like?

>>5157824
You mean to say I am not talking with myself?

>>5157824
Well if you are the OP please elaborate

Composition is one the big fundamental of art.

So I don’t understand of this?

You should be studying, composition, gesture etc.

It’s your fault for skipping and being a dumb ass

>>5157824
Nothing you said made any sense anyways. Stop trying to rationalize and build your own systems when you don't know jack shit. Just listen to your teachers. Empty your preconceptions. And practice like mad.

>ic tells me to stop talking because I am talking nonsense and they cant have a conversation on the actual thread subject because of me
>discussion dies

>>5158509
Not our fault OP bitched out
What is there to discuss?