/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>5124612
nice bait faggot.

god, gesture is such a retarded meme
>inb4 coping from shitters
show me 3 industry artists that use gesture

>>5124639
It doesn't hurt you to know it you know.

>>5124639
>show me three professional cyclists that use training wheels

>>5124635
This isn’t bait

>>5124646
>This isn’t bait
Then congrats, you're a retard.

>>5124650
Can you explain to me why I’m a retard so I don’t make the same mistake again? Because I fail to see how I’m wrong here

>>5124653
croquis is not about measuring lengths, but about showing the beauty of the form.

if her legs are too damn long, you just make them shorter. That doesnt mean you are a worse artist, in fact its the opposite.

Now get back to drawing.

>>5124639
Every animator for Disney

>>5124660
Disney animators take figure drawing lessons and guess what will be talked about during the lessons.

>>5124660
I’m sorry. should I have specified an industry that isn’t dead?
When was the last time you saw a Disney animation exactly? Maybe if they spent more time animating and less time making up “fundamentals” to sell to gullible retards, they’d still have a job.

>>5124640
just draw, but quicker. just sketch.
and yes, it can hurt when retards worry to much "h-how should i do the gesture? which method of construction should i use? how do i know i am ready to move on to anatomy?" or when they fall for the noodly ballerina gestures meme.

>>5124660
>he fell for the matesi “I was a disney animator” pitch
lol disney hasn’t had actual animators for like 20 years and the only mention of “gesture” in the context of the actual animators there are teachers trying desperately pointing at them and crying “l-look, they use gesture, y-y-you can see it” in attempt to sell you their services in spite of them never actually achieving anything with their “gesture knowledge”
>inb4 some beg retard conflates line of action with “gesture”

>>5124639
>i don't know what gesture is so its a meme
>also im 12

>>5124708
something nicolaides made up in between smearing paint over tanks and making amazing art such as this in order to have something new to teach to retards, then other teachers latched onto it because they too couldn’t make a living with their art and needed a hook for gullible retards to give them money

>>5124700
> Mike Mattesi
>“I was a disney animator”

>>5124719
Pyw

>>5124731
exactly, he “was a disney animator” which is further defined as “working on lion king”, though he never specified what exactly it is that he worked on, then he became a teacher
that is the extent of his “disney animator career”
in a similar vein to how vilppu “worked in animation”, while in reality he was a layout artist, background artist and the closest he got to animating was pic related where he was one of 23 (twenty three) storyboard “directors”

>>5124731
Oh wait, here he is
damn, I guess he really does have street cred

>>5124719
Fuck, that's Artstation quality work, he'd get a job at an AAA game studio right away

>>5124731
he was also art director for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BViaaeH_8O8
damn, is there anything gesture can’t do

>>5124738
here you go, it’s a gesture

>>5124731
he was also art director for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BViaaeH_8O8 [Embed]
damn, is there anything gesture can’t do

>>5124738
here you go, it’s a gesture

>>5124773
I keep trying to tell people that with very few exceptions, great artists (Sargent, Frazetta, Moran, Shirow, whatever style you like) don't teach or share their secrets. They make more money making unique art. It's always the mediocre ones (Bobby Chiu, Proko, Watts, Vilppu, Will Terry, Tyler Edlin, a billion identical "concept artists") that are making courses and hustling their art schools.

Great artists are always self taught to a large degree, and always working on their own style instead of arguing over what the best course or teacher or method is.

But when I say this here I'm always told that I'm a beginner and a crab :P

>>5124799
Most retarded shit I have read here, that says a lot

>>5124719
i was wondering about the origin of this thing. i knew it was not ancient just by looking at the works of the old masters. even though they use old masters as supposed proof of this way of thinking like they do with their compositional studies. so many of the fundamentals are deeply transformed by modern american design theories that even the self proclaimed traditionalists will swear by them.

>>5124824
There is no reason to believe otherwise when there are thousands of drawings from basically every Renaissance master that look like this, more or less. Its simply how they put their initial ideas on paper quickly, to be expanded upon later.
I really like this one because in the top right you can see one of the gesture sketches that establishes the idea for what would be Da Vinci's lost "Battle of Anghiari" painting

>>5124905
forgot pic

>>5124908
except those are contours, it’s literally just croquis aka fucking sketching

>>5124612
Gesture isn’t about copying the pose exactly. Vilppu says this multiple times in the course

>>5124912
gesture drawing includes using contours retard

>>5124944
you know what else includes drawing contours? everything, you imbecile
it’s a fucking sketch, there’s nothing special about it
>b-b-but
post pure gesture studies by renaissance masters
post them studying the “flow”
oh wait, you can’t

>>5124948
damn you got me
gesture drawing isn't real because a beg said so LOL

>>5124959
>gesture is real because I can’t prove it
???

Threads like these really make people want to stop putting in the effort to help you guys, you know. The fact that gesture and Vilppu are even being debated is like kiddos saying algebra is nonsense.

>>5125005
post work, larper

>>5124905
i am very familiar with old master drawings. compare it to the ones when modern teachers teach gesture. this is just drawing quickly. it is different. much more direct into the details of the contour even if it is simplified. this way of working flows much more into more finished stages of drawings if he just took his time more, unlike those of the modern teachers.
it is like being in favor bridgman construction or some other modern construction method because one could behold a limb have cylindrical form. it wouldnt be so difficult to point out which is modern and which isnt since the drawings are so simple and "fundamental" if they are the same methods and way of thinking.
>>5125005
i dont ask for help from people who only have a passing interest in old masters because some youtube artist told them to study them for the art gainz but in reality mostly know anime artists.

>>5124612
It’s not tons of people recommending it, vilppu is a confirmed lurker on /ic/. He samefags in every other thread shilling his shit, I wish he’d just fuck off at this point but he’s clearly not going anywhere

>>5125029
suck my dick faggot can’t kill the vill

>>5124646
Oh no no no

What’s with people who shit on gesture l? What’s so hard to understand about if?

>>5124799
Name one great artist that is entirely self taught

>>5125039
Frazetta learned how to draw by copying the entire bridgman book he borrowed in a single night.

>>5124799
If you talk to artists most of them suck at explaining anything
Teaching is it’s own skill

>>5125018
> compare it to the ones when modern teachers teach gesture
Like Vilppu? How he draws figures and teaches gesture drawings is the direct result of him drawing from old master paintings and sketches over and over again.
> this is just drawing quickly. it is different.
Drawing quickly with a purpose. The purpose being to establish and emphasize the overall action, pose, mood and movement of a figure or figures in a composition, AKA the GESTURES, then we consider that gesture drawing simply because that's the purpose of the sketch. There is no arbitrary rule on what gesture drawing is and isn't by its style, how much detail you add ontop of it. Like if the purpose of how you're drawing is to figure out the volumes and structure of a figure, that's constructive drawing.

>>5125039
Vilppu was raised in a cage in Vietnam during the Great War. He ate nothing but rice and didn’t attempt to communicate at all till the age of 15, by which point he’d already memorised fun with a pencil cover to cover and replicated bridgemans anatomy in its entirety not once, not twice but six times. All before he could read the text

>>5124799
your brain has been utterly fried by the internet and i hope you're underage or something

>>5125038
It's mostly anime coomer begs going through the recommended material and thinking "how is this helping me draw anime titties" without understanding how core and essential gesture is to all art

>>5125038
pyw

>>5124799
This is your brain on /ic/

>>5124799
this is like saying different math textbooks teach arithmetic differently.

The fundamentals of drawing are all the same everywhere: gesture, structure, anatomy, perspective, lighting, composition, etc.

>>5125734
Show me 1 (one) mention of a fundamental called gesture, or indeed merely described as the modern teachers describe gesture prior to 1940. How come no one heard of this fundamental before a literallywho failed artist?
Centuries of art and no one figured it out before Nicolaides? No one even thought to mention this crucial fundamental of art in passing?

>>5125757
gesture is just body language. storytelling.

You're holding yourself back by your own misunderstanding. There are millions of ways to capture a gesture with phyiscal lines, but the gesture is what you're after. The goddamn body language and acting.

Ask yourself how everyone knows you're a fucking /beg/

>>5125767
pyw

>>5125768
you're a complete idiot.

>>5125767
post ONE example
just one
and post your work while you’re at it, since you’re clearly a knowledgeable, skilled individual and not a retarded beg incapable of arguing his own headcanon of what an art fundamental is

>>5125773
tell me what you think gesture is then. You really think scribbly fucking lines are an art fundamental?

>>5125770
stop typing and pyw
typing too damn much, gesture this gesture that, you can probably write a thesis on this shit but wheres the work to show for it all

>>5125781
lmao what do you think gesture is? because scribbling is exactly what it’s inventor calls it
now either provide citation of gesture being a fundamental that doesn’t come from some fag trying to peddle his school or fuck off

>>5125796
>>5125800
I give up. You win. Go live your life happily, knowing you're right. Gesture really is just scribbling. Nothing to do with acting, storytelling, body language, composition, or anything so unimportant.

>>5125809
run away

>>5125809
Correct. Guess what gesture I'm making at your post right now.

>>5125809
Have fun going through life like a fucking sheep.

>>5125812
>>5125816
>>5125819
im genuinely baffled at your stupidity. Oh my god. Is this what Nicolaides does to students?

>>5125832
ask vilppu, mattesi &co, they’re the ones proselytising his teachings lol

>>5125839
i hope you're trolling.

>>5124673
this is the hottest, spiciest, most ill informed take of the century.

>>5125840
lmao nicolaides was literally telling you to feel the form and imagine yourself doing the pose before vilppu could talk
nicolaides is considered a revolutionary teacher precisely for coming up with the idea of gesture, you utter fucking imbecile
read a book lmao

>>5125850
you're read nicolaides, but you haven't read Vilppu. If you did you'd know how precise and conscientiously Vilppu's way of drawing was. Vilppu's way really is the way everyone works. Forms arranged in space to tell a story

I'm sorry I even got in this argument in the first place. Sorry I made you feel stupid. You don't need to keep going back to your Nicolaides pdf to try to prove a point. I'm not coming back. just go draw. It's better for both of us.

Part of the problem is that gesture is often taught too abstractly and and at the same time, too rigidly. You're told to "feel" the gesture and to not draw the contours, but rather to capture something intangible like the "motion" or "flow" of the figure. Yet at the same time, every figure is to be approached in the same rote way. Rib cage, spine, pelvis, c-s-i curves only.

Personally I haven't found a single approach that works best for every figure. Every figure presents unique and interesting problems. There's so many ways to conceptualize something as complex as a body, so many relationships between the parts that can perceived, it feels like the process can never be reduced to plug-and-chug steps.

Here's a drawing I did recently. This is a pretty typical workflow if I see a pose I like and basically want to copy it as is. There's nothing all that abstract here. In fact you could think of these interpretations as grids: free flowing grids to aid in placing masses and features. It's to help keep focus on the big picture arrangement of the larger parts, so I don't get lost in the weeds of details and smaller parts.

The thing is: this works really well. Really, really well. You almost cannot truly fuck up a drawing if you analyze it this way. But I still don't care for how my final drawing turned out. I think it's too studied and almost too correct in some ways despite the proportion changes.
Right now I'm trying to work gesture into my drawings in a more naturalistic, sketching-based way first, and then use the "grid" method to refine. Point is, there's no wrong way to do it. Try everything until you find a method that makes sense to you.

nicolaideez nutz nigga

>>5125863
We’re not discussing vilppu, whose work I am well familiar with, we’re discussing “gesture”, a supposed fundamental of art, and fundamentals do not change willy nilly from one teacher to the next, which is precisely the point, you utterly braindead mongoloid failure of a man. “Gesture” is the fancy of the unproductive artist, an academic who spends too much time thinking about art and not enough time actually producing art, rather stuck in their comfort zone of their chosen mystical science, which is what both of vilppu and nicolaides exhibit.
The only thing you’re sorry for is your utter inability to not only draw, but to defend your delusional ideas of drawing.
pyw or fuck off for real this time, you attention starved mentally deficient child of a nigger

>>5125884
how in the world is gesture not body language to you? What the fuck do you think it is?

Brain-damaged fuck. I feel like I'm talking to an asylum patient.

>right

aaaaaaaaaand that's how you know someone is /beg/

>>5125884
post yours first lol

>>5124645
Thread

why do people seethe about vilppu saying "gesture" when he also talks about how to construct the figure in various ways, how to study and use anatomy, how to light the figure, etc.
it's almost as if no one here has studied from him!

>>5125891
Body language is not an art fundamental, you nigger brained primitive.

>>5125902
you should stop drawing. You are not smart enough to make it.

post your gesture and state your allegiance
as for me, gesture is for begs and other retards

>>5125884
Strange to insinuate that Vilppu of all artists is a stodgy academic. The dude clearly loves drawing and the whole drawing process, including what he calls the gesture.

i just use gesture to get down the pose fast before going onto construction. am i a retard?

>>5126367
that's exactly what its for. You're doing it right. When you get more advanced you can just see the gesture (the pose) and construct without putting it down

bridgman talks about the "rhythm" of figures, which is kinda the same thing

here u go bro

here u go again

rhythm, gesture, quicksketch, croquis, who gives a shit what it's called. if loomis called construction "faggotniggerdry" would you be crying about how it's completely useless because the term is made-up?

>>5124731
>>5126456
NOOOOOOOOO NOOOOOOOO BRIDGMAN WAS A HACK TOO NO ONE EVER LEARNED FROM HIM IT'S ALL BULLSHIT MODS??? MODS FUCKING BAN THIS BIGOT

>>5125123
how he teaches gesture is a result of his background in animation and superimposing old master studies on top of it. his early teaching career was based in practically the capital of western animation. besides the topic is much bigger than vilppu. i myself tolerate vilppu more than someone like proko.

you can call it gesture in the broadest sense, but that is ignoring that among artists the word refers to a certain kind of methods and practice, and even a curriculum of its own. it isnt difficult to apply a practice or study method to an existing word which has gained new significance, like with composition. the drawing methods of the renaissance is not something that is being taught unmixed by influences from modern, unrelated industries.

>>5125757
bro im waiting for u

>>5126500
he teaches gesture from old master methods of composition man, not animation drawing

Composition is based on rhythm. It's all about leading the eye from one element to the next to tell the story of the picture. All renaissance, classical, baroque paintings all had a flow to them. The rhythm of the composition is the story of the composition. So gesture and composition are really the same thing. Composition is rhythm to tell a story. Gesture is also rhythm to tell a story, which in the case of figure drawing, is body language, attitude, idiosyncracies, and posing.

>gesture as an independent artistic practice
that doesn't divorce gesture from its true meaning, which is composition and storytelling (and in turn, rhythm) That's like saying you don't use perspective in figure drawing just because architectural drafting became an artistic practice in its own right. There is no new significance with the word gesture. Anybody who says you don't use gesture in a long pose likely hails from the classical tradition of "copying", where you sit in front of a model and block it in with plumb-lines, negative shapes, and calipers. That form of drawing has no place in renaissance or animation drawing, or any kind of drawing of practical use.

>>5126447
>>5126456
>>5126472
ohboyherewego.jpg
Bridgman does not talk about gesture, and his rhythm isn’t even a “rhythm of figures”, it’s composition if anything.
>In drawing and painting there is rhythm in outline, color, light and shade
>No two tones of equal size or intensity should appear directly above one another or side by side; their arrangement should be shifting and alternate.
> The arrangement of line and volume of folds is not complete or harmonious without a hidden and subtle flow of symmetry. Nature has supplied both line and form that are symmetrical and harmonious. These laws of rhythm exist and are recognized as undefined laws
Bridgman’ s talking about rhythm of arrangements of graphical elements, line, color, value, not muh gesture

>>5126589
what you said is right, but gesture and composition might as well be practically synonymous.

>>5126589
and if you paid attention to any vilppu lecture you'd understand that the gesture is supposed to GUIDE your eyes. bridgman is literally describing gesture the way all modern art instructors do it. gesture is ULTIMATELY A COMPOSITIONAL CONCEPT.

gesture is ultimately a TOOL you use to describe rhythm. you don't HAVE to use it. it works for others, but it might not work for you. it's alright. no one's forcing you.

>>5126604
>>5126610
i'm not >>5126593 btw

>>5126593
If gesture was merely treated as localised composition, I’d have no problem with it, but it’s put on a pedestal not only as a fundamental in itself, but quite often as THE fundamental, which is preposterous and nothing but snake oil marketing.
There is also a very clear difference in how Bridgman treats it (if we were to assume they are one an the same), ie as composition with basic “rules” and how it is presented in later material, ie “just feeeeeeel it”, “it’s like draining a ferrari” and other bullshit.

>>5126622
Gesture really is the most important fundamental though. It's not the hardest, but its essential. You have to compose individual figures as well. And what else is composition besides storytelling?

>>5126625
Gesture is not a fundamental. It never was.
You can say “gesture” is just specific application of composition if you want. Composition is a fundamental.
Color theory is a fundamental. The color blue is not, regardless of how crucial the color is.
Do you see where I’m going with this?

>>5126631
Well, I guess I define gesture as composition then. That's how Vilppu does it.

But I don't get why you're so resistant as to naming posing/acting/body language/storytelling as a fundamental in it of itself. There are lots of drawings with bad posing and unclear storytelling

>>5126635
First of all storytelling has literally nothing to do with gesture. Paneling is not gesture. Pacing is not gesture. And they’re not fundamentals either.
What you’re doing is literally no different than people redefining what art is to elevate the status of things that are not art.
Gesture isn’t acting, either. Composition is arrangement of elements, that’s it. You are making marks on paper, not acting. The figure isn’t acting either. Acting is an art all of its own, to degrade it by comparing it to a tiny aspect of an aspect of drawing is retarded.
Do you genuinely not realise how pretentious you sound?

>>5124646

>>5126635
Good gesture doesn’t make you a good storyteller, why do you insist on that?

Is this vilpu complaining thread? Cause I just got the videos and the background noise is driving me up the frickin wall dude.

>>5126665
storytelling in the way that it depicts a clear action or mood, i suppose something like "mood setter"? or maybe like expressive artist would actually be accurate

>>5125839
Wrong, the truth is that it was Disney animators who came up with the idea of gesture when they invented animation.

>>5125704
BTW none of the Japanese "How-to-draw-anime" guides (most of them looks as reworked Loomis) I know uses gestures.

>>5125757
nicolaides

>>5126849
It's funny because anime art with strong gesture and composition is lightyears ahead of the 99% rest of the entire field, which is a wasteland of flat uninspired mishmash. You can have the most detailed rendering imaginable but it will look shit if the gesture and composition underneath it are bad, I basically don't register this type of art at all.

Most begs don't associate high skill with anything but lots of tiny details, so gesture confuses them because it's not as obvious in the final drawing.

You people will never make it if you spend so much time getting butthurt that other people are succeeding instead of spending that time drawing.

>>5124660
I know this is a bait thread, but Not only that, but the animators guild here in LA, which you have to be a studio worker to be in has classes from vilppu, and Karl gnass. I follow Mark Kirkland, and his insta has a lot of drawings he's done in vilppus classes.

Does anyone know where I can find new masters academy renaissance head drawing by vilppu

>>5127747
video course thread

>>5126517
>Composition is based on rhythm. It's all about leading the eye
we are talking about teachings in "gesture drawing" which is practically synomymous with certain techniques. that is also something that happens naturally because of the nature of the story in particular.
The rhythm of the composition is the story of the composition.
story making is something much more than that. , settings, sometimes history, costume, expressions, forms, attributes, interactions, qualities, are all more important focuses.
>that doesn't divorce gesture from its true meaning
you keep shifting the focus onto the most general of sense when the topic has been about modern teachings. for one, no one is even teaching "gesture" like in the leonardo drawing. it is a shorthand contour drawing which is often even frowned upon by those teaching gesture, and something that naturally happens as a result of experience with drawing the figure and knowing anatomy.
>That's like saying you don't use perspective
in the first place there is a difference in a well drawn figure having a fitting action which if it is well drawn it cannot help but be graceful, and doing noodlemen and wiremen and smoky chamois men. having a fitting action or "gesture" is also not even the same as a figure having a gesture and no one is suggesting that figures should not have -good- gesture in the broadest sense of the word.
>There is no new significance with the word
there absolutely is in the context of art. gestures (something related to bodily action in its beginning) having rhythm is now also rhythm in itself and the arrangement of a composition as well. and in practice an army of noodlemen and mannequins have usurped the title.
Anybody who says you don't use gesture in a long pose...
plotting the placement of things loosely is something optional that happens naturally. how one does it is a matter of training. it still doesnt answer why gesture is a separate discipline, one that many claim must be learned first.

>>5124773
Wait, vilppu was a ponyfag?

you fags will argue about this bullshit for hours instead of drawing.

>>5124700
https://youtu.be/6mrhW6REKNQ