/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>5040354
Because there's also a lot of hard work and practice that goes in to perfecting the skill. When someone just calls it talent it feels like they think it's something you just woke up with one day and could do perfectly and they don't see all the hard work and dedication.

>>5040354
A true artist must have insanely low self-esteem, also known as humility, which is as we all know a heavenly virtue opposing capital vice of pride - the deadliest sin (sin of Lucifer himself)

Take the Talentpill, kid.

>>5040358
this
talentfags feel like their hard work is being ignored and talentless want to believe they just have to keep drawing and they will assuredly reach the level of skill they want in the timeframe they want

>>5040375
also, art teachers don’t want you to not pay them because you don’t think you’re talented and you’re discouraged

>>5040375
How do you reply to something and miss the point cmpletely

>>5040360
>A true artist must have insanely low self-esteem, also known as humility, which is as we all know a heavenly virtue opposing capital vice of pride - the deadliest sin (sin of Lucifer himself)
This is bullshit, my pride is what enables me to get up and try in the first place

>>5040354
Its a defense mechanism they set up back when they were still /beg/'s OP.

It's to save face in case the person decides to shit all over them, literally every artist does this.

>>5040354
There is no such thing as talent. The whisper of the muses. The ideas that comes like lightning. You are just a tool of the gods. Be like a tool for the gods.

>>5040392
You either have no reading comprehension or can’t articulate yourself, depending on whether that was your post or not.

>>5040354
>Drawing weird shit at full power level
>"Can I see what you're drawing?"
How do you reply?

>>5040398
this
ironically places like /ic/ fostered this mindset by shitting all over everyone, even if they're actually good. everyone has the mindset of "don't let yourself have any kind of pride in your work, don't acknowledge your work as good in any way, every aspect of it is bad and you must think it is the worst thing ever created or you are an embarrassing self-absorbed faggot who will be rightfully mocked" now

>>5040564
it's larger than /ic/, it's the general mindset of millennials who've been raised with far higher standards than the previous generation yet are told they're worthless and are entitled to nothing.
It's just a way to keep your chin low so you shut up and do the work.

>>5040354
The concept of talent was invented as a cope for dumb and lazy people to deal with the fact some people are much better than them. It preserves their own self worth and confidence because they can just tell themselves "oh that guy is talented i cant be that good because i dont have talent"
Thats the only purpose of the concept of talent, to not hurt the feeling of the unskilled.

>>5040354
how is there a "talent" thread every single dayyyyyyyyy don't you have anything better to do? C O P E

Art is a PROCESS, not the RESULT.
Some people are intuitively better at the process then others but anyone can do it.

>>5040684
Art is only measured by the result

>>5040800
To most people sure, but plenty of people, a lot of whom being artists themselves, measure art by the process as well.

>>5040808
>Some people (artists) might take interest and value on the process
>However. Everyone, both artists and regular people value the result
>Art is universally valued by the result
There.

>>5040605
>>5040605
Is it weird that I may feel hurt if I dint have talent?

>>5040394
Then you're no artist!!!

>>5040394
Different anon, but you are terribly mistaken to believe pride is a useful tool and not another brand of self deceit and illusion. On par with the wildest crazies out there. The strengths pride would seem to have are twisted, much moreso than hate or lust.
Any amount of pride you allow is a weapon you create against yourself. And there's never an "if" it will go off, but a when, as it's only a matter of time before it fails you... and in a way you never saw coming, because- pride!
Unless you change it, humble yourself that is.

>>5040354
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

Everytime someone says im talented i just agree and say some shit about it being natures gift to me. True or not, i hope i discourage mentally weak artists.

>>5041018
based af

>>5040394
Pride in what? What exactly are you proud of? If its your drawing ability then RIP.

>>5041018
You.
I like you.

I was often told I was talented growing up by family members and friends (art teachers at school however, never used the word, they only ever said I was skilled). Was a 'serious' art student in high school in that I took it up until 18, but I put minimum effort in.
I hardly did anything in my own time that wasn't aimless doodling, so as an adult I'm barely mediocre. Maybe good enough to get a commission from someone with low standards if I put myself out there but I feel I'm still beg tier because there's a lot of basic things I haven't really got down. There are certainly people who were told they were terrible artists growing up who are 100x better than I am.

>>5040354
>>5040932
/thread
the comic in op basically shows a crab wasting his time being salty about anyone that is above his level of skill and trying to make them feel bad about it and a person that is aware they can do better than where they are at the moment and spent a lot of time to practice.

>>5041069
>>5040931
Not the guy you’re talking to, but you’re thinking of hubristic pride which is different from taking pride in your honest work.

>>5040360

Is that darksyde phil

>>5040354
Why does this artist always come off as so beta?

For the same reason most people secretly think they are the only subhuman amongst everyone else who is normal and thinks they need to bluff having their shit together: that's just how the human mind works

>>5041296
What a waste of talent.

>>5041296
See, the greatest damage the idea of talent does to a person is convincing them that they don't need to practice. Whether it's because they're talented and therefore good, or because they're talentless and therefore won't ever be good, either way you end up thinking that actions can't have consequences.

>>5040570
very true. population keeps rising and job opportunities keep shrinking as automation takes over or jobs are getting outsourced to labour in 3rd world countries. on top of this there is an ever rising social media where everyone only presents the very best of themselves and everyone ends up feeling worthless as a result.

>>5040506
Switch to another unfinished drawing

>>5040605
Fucking this

>>5042054
>See, the greatest damage the idea of talent does to a person is convincing them that they don't need to practice.

This is only the case if you're a fucking retard.

Anyone with basic intelligence will figure out natural predisposition + hard work will take you further than just coasting.

>>5041533
No, pride is pride, and no seemingly small amount is ever good. The word you're looking for i believe, is joy. Taking pride in honest work would be robbing it of its honesty, and thereby it's rightful joy- by however much or little.

>>5040360
>>5040931
>>5043013
The inability to make a value judgement about your own distance toward your ideal is incompatible with faith toward an ideal in the first place. Pride is only incorrect when its incorrect, when it explains an inflated value judgement. And if there is no ideal because all is equal, then you are directionless, fated to be another powerless victim of entropy. Death and decay threatens all, but without an ideal it is the only thing that can describe you and your prideless existence

>>5043092
Pride is always incorrect, as its basis draws on flawed and wrong comparisons, or more fittingly contrasts, as it will never seek to unite by nature. In this way it blinds you as to your own actual standing relative to your ideals, which is always something far less ennumerable than your own flawed perception allows (and therefore harder to faithfully follow).
All pride is blindness, and unironically death, to borrow your metaphors. It is the opposite of a necessary discernment mechanism you describe. Unless you believe in disproving negatives as a replacement for the scientific method as well. Nonsense.

>>5040360
>>5040394
>>5041533
>>5043013
>>5043092
>>5043121
Pride is a misnomer in translation, it would be more accurate as hubris, holding one's self in excessively high regard

>>5043121
Your feeling regarding/perception of:
>your own actual standing relative to your ideals
is your level of pride. To say that pride is always incorrect is either to dismiss the concept of an ideal entirely, or to deny your ability to discern your position relative to it. These two are effectively the same. If you cannot discern your position relative to your ideal, then you cannot discern what choices would bring you closer to it either.

>>5043159
No, what? Your pride has nothing to do with your standing. None whatsoever. Its apples and oranges. Nor does accurate self understanding- especially in relation to ideals- which always require self sacrifice for. How often do you see anons bemoaning this fact with the latest artist that they feel doesn't deserve whatever they have.
Honestly, did you read at all what I said?
>>5043149
It's such a fucky word, I hate it. There's no real good word to replace it in common current use either. Joy kind of. Love kind of. To me the semantic line is whether it adheres to separating the self from others, versus- something else, a higher ideal of one kind or another. One is pitting your capacities against nonsense in slavery, the other allows living up to your fullest. Wherever you happen to find that.

>>5042823
>This is only the case if you're a fucking retard.

kids tend to be retarded, they don't know that shit.

this is why you have to praise kids on their hard work and not their talent because a lot of kids will slack off when told they're "gifted"

>>5043251
Or you just tell them both because it's not an either or situation.

>>5035839
We already have this thread and you got blown the fuck out

>>5040354
Talent is just a concept for whiny crabs to use to diminish the accomplishments of others who chose to have willpower and dedication

>>5044043
If you deny the existence of talent you must also deny the existence of genius and savants.

>>5044180
I don't deny the existence of retards and smart people
Like you, clearly the former

>>5040380
every aside from a cripple or retard can get to a workable level of skill.

>>5040605
some people start off a bit ahead, they have a good grasp of movement and how to write it down, they have a decent teachers who help them understand how to do something right.

most of us had art in school and it was essentially 'let's give the teacher an hour long break' time, not teaching you shit. getting screamed at for not making a clay pizza and instead drawing was fun in 5th grade.

>>5044180
savants are essentially that autistic person who does that one really amazing thing from nothing, but does nothing else.

genius/iq is a cope, these people grasp ideas faster, and may be able to go further in a field, but hard work gets you to the same end, granted, when you have genius+hard work combo is when the world changes, but how often has the world really changed in our lifetimes? im in my 30's and in all honesty, every single thing is an incremental change on what was already there, nothing has been a lightbulb invented moment.

there are sub 50 savants in the world.

there are some musicians who have synesthesia, and that helps them learn faster, that's not talent thats a tool they get to use that you don't.

>>5044250
>I don't deny the existence of retards and smart people

And you don't see how intelligence would aid a person in both drafting and design? Geometry for perspective, biology for anatomy, understanding the principles of light and gravity.

>>5044647
>and that helps them learn faster, that's not talent thats a tool they get to use that you don't.
>helps them learn faster,
> a tool they get to use that you don't.

That's exactly what talent is a general descriptor for you dipshit

>>5044684
what tool do they get that you don't in a general sense? is it that you are to retarded to understand perspective? that you wont put the work in to be able to lay something in correctly without a stupid amount of guides? is it that they are able to undestand proportion? or is it that they have now drawn so much that they can render?

did you ever try to draw perspective without lines?
did you ever try and learn how to draw proportionally correct?
have you ever thought while you are drawing why you are doing it this way and if its the best way?

not being retarded and doing the same thing and expecting different results in not fucking talent.

>>5044694
>what tool do they get that you don't in a general sense?
There's certain configurations of neurological traits that lends themselves to faster and/or further development in certain fields. Some got it some don't. Seeing as I tutored classmates in my field I got it.

>is it that you are to retarded to understand perspective?

Perspective was easy, but I've seen other students who drew as much as me struggle with something that made perfect sense to me.

>that you wont put the work in to be able to lay something in correctly

I wouldn't really call it "work" I like calling it figuring it out. Some of the best techniques I use came out of me fucking around with different things for shits and giggles.

>did you ever try to draw perspective without lines?

You can't draw anything without lines. but jokes aside I usually mentally project lines and angles when I'm freeballin it.

>have you ever thought while you are drawing why you are doing it this way and if its the best way?

Go by instinct.

>>5044694
Reminder that talent-deniers are butthurt low tiers that need a cope for their own stunted development compared to everyone else (I just need more time guys I swear!). These are the people who've never had an experience in out performing their peers.

"talented" people like to believe they're talented, they don't want you to get better so they can feel special

>>5044684
You don't understand what intelligence is
Thats your issue
You think its a magical superpower because you watched too many marvel movies and it distorted your perception of reality
Stop consuming media like a pig eating out of a trough, that's your first step

>>5044743
But I've outperformed lazy fags that believe talent is why they can't be bothered to put effort into anything in their lives countless times
They just artistically screech that I'm naturally talented and thats why I'm outperforming them, not because I put time and effort into what I want to learn instead of spending all my time watching tik tok videos and complaining online

>>5044774
>But I've outperformed lazy fags that believe talent is why they can't be bothered to put effort into anything in their lives countless times


This is how I know you're full of shit. In art it's not about effort it's about knowing what you're doing. A lazy doodle can better than a painting that took days to complete just on the application of principles. And how fast you pick those principles up varies from person to person.

In fact lazyness will help you figure out more efficient techniques. If it all came down to endless grinding nobody would experiment with styles in the first place.

>>5044774
>They just artistically screech that I'm naturally talented and thats why I'm outperforming them,

When people see you're better than them they ask you " how do I do x?" or say "I have trouble with y". Because they enrolled in art courses for a reason you disingenuous fuck.

>>5040605
reeree, you do realize the way a concept is used has no bearing on whether or not it actually exists, right?

>>5044827
You can grind experimentation you retard

>>5044874
No, they don't ask. And if they do they want an easy answer, not the actual answer which is "practice x, y, and z"
They just reply "nah you're just talented lol that sounds like effort"
But I've moved past trying to help these insects, most of them are literally just trying to waste the time of people with more willpower than them so they can feel better about themselves
Real people try to get better, subhuman freaks like you try to bring people down to their level instead of putting in effort to be as good as others

>>5044918
But talent doesn't exist, you're thinking of well thought out, intentional practice and hard work
You have to work hard smartly, not just work hard

>>5044932
You can but it's pointless. Forcing it instead of using the ideas as they come will often lead to uninspired garbage. Eureka moments aren't on a countdown.

>>5044941
do you really believe that if you put 1000 people in a room and have them receive the same instruction and do the same exercises, they will all have the same results?

>>5044938
>not the actual answer which is "practice x, y, and z"

If your just telling the to "practice" you're a moron. When somebody wants help I give them a methodology, tips, resources. When they want help with hands I show them simple construction setups like with cubes and cylinders and explain info like"Thumb has 1 joint fingers 2". Sometimes 1 lesson is all they need to "get it". Practice doesn't help if you have no idea what you're doing wrong.

>They just reply "nah you're just talented lol that sounds like effort"

So a key sign you're lying is that none of these hypothetical people ask about frequency. They just dismiss it entirely like a hive mind with no form of compromise into "how long?" and "how often?". Which doesn't work for people that apparently either take art classes or draw in their spare time.

>Real people try to get better,


Do or do not there is no "try"

>>5045027
Learning how to let ideas flow is a skill bro
That you learn through practice
>>5045036
No and you didn't understand what I was saying at all

>>5045065
Yes practice does help because better than what you described, it forces them to experiment and see what works and what doesn't and that improves their creativity as well as their technical skills
Your method create robots that can produce replicas of real art with subtle variations but nothing original

>>5045065
I was speaking generally I'm not going to describe in detail every crab I've met
Yes sometimes they ask more questions before figuring out it takes mental effort on their part in addition to physical effort
Most art students are drug addicts afraid of getting a real job so they want an algorithm that makes them an artist that gets paid to follow steps
They're not smart people anon, most are lazy fucks who are pursuing art hoping to escape real work, why do you think they'd put effort into learning if they can't handle flipping a fucking burger?
Sorry, but improving can be boring and repetitive at times, it has to be some of the time and if you have the attention span of a goldfish you're ngmi, not because you lack talent but because media has fried your ability to actually focus for more than ten seconds on something that doesn't stimulate you enough

>>5045084
> because better than what you described,

Instruction. What I described is called instruction. AKA School, class, tutoring/tutorials.

>it forces them to experiment and see what works and what doesn't

They asked me for my advice/help clearly that wasn't working for them if they wanted it.

>>5045087
>before figuring out it takes mental effort on their part in addition to physical effort

So they never drew in there lives before because the strain is too much? You keep saying effort like its training for a marathon and not a cozy little hobby you can do in your PJs 30 minutes a day.

>Most art students are drug addicts afraid of getting a real job

On your planet sure but here they're nerds that at most blaze cheap weed. In non art centered schools classes have every conceivable version of human in them.

>Sorry, but improving can be boring and repetitive at times,

I have never felt bored by art in my life. It's the reason I haven't killed myself. I live for drawing.

>>5045092
Its not that it wasn't working its that they were refusing to do it because it required mental effort
They are lazy you dunce
You don't need somebody to hold your hand and spoonfeed you their creativity to replicate
You are not a child

>>5045112
Well you're probably not very good if you've never drilled problem areas or maybe you have learned how to enjoy anything which is actually a good trait because you can practice things most art students would get bored by
Its not a strain if you want to stay an amateur, yes you are right about that

>>5045087
>I was speaking generally I'm not going to describe in detail every crab I've met

So you admit your argument is based on a shit tier straw-man then? Your whole basis is built on the idea that everyone who believes in talent is too lazy practice for any period of time. Despite the presence of numerous anons that believe in both intrinsic ability and education. Your putting un-provable anecdotes against direct testimony.

>>5045158
>Well you're probably not very good if you've never drilled problem areas

It's fun when you get that mental "click" in a new skill. Besides it's just a matter of grasping the fundamental concepts.

>you can practice things most art students would get bored by

Nothing in art bores me. The ability to render anything imaginable is what makes it so fulfilling.

>Its not a strain

I guess that just a sign I have talent then?

>>5045159
No that wasn't my premise and its not a strawman its reality
People who believe in talent might performatively "practice something" (as in do drills without thinking about it" for a short period of time before giving up but they're still too lazy to actually practice intentionally and with an active mind
You sound like someone who took an intro to logic class and thinks that their amateurish debate tactics are convincing
We're not even debating, I'm explaining reality to you and you're denying it, throwing a fit because you feel sorry for the lazy crabs or maybe you're a decent artist and you want to believe there's something intrinsically superior about you, that you were given your ability by divine grace lmao
No, "talent" is the end result of hard work both mental and physical done in a systematic way to improve efficiently
Thats it, there's nothing else to it

>>5045169
Ah I get it now you believe in talent because you think you're talented and innately special
Have you ever heard the term "delusions of grandeur"?
Also, pyw

>>5045175
>you think you're talented and innately special

Well this convo just proved people are different. You have to force yourself to draw like its an arduous larbor while it's a only ever been a stress leaving joy for me. Everybody has something that makes them special

>"delusions of grandeur"

I believe there are millions of other people of equal and greater "talent" to me and that never discouraged me from art or the desire to improve. I do it because it makes me happy

>Also, pyw

Why haven't you?

>>5045173
>No, "talent" is the end result of hard work both mental and physical done in a systematic way to improve efficiently


Talent describes how quickly you advance and pick things up not the end result. Think of it as doing the exact same exercises but developing faster.

its hard to believe talent doesnt exist when you ask people how they got good and all they give you is vague nothing answers

>>5045173
>hard work

You can read books or watch/listen to masters and see visible improvement afterwards. Quantity, procedure or "effort" are irrelevant. You either understand principle or you don't. And if you consider that mentally taxing that's on you not everyone else on earth.

>>5045843
People develop faster because they do exercises intentionally, paying attention to certain things and thinking about what they're doing instead of doing them without using their brain
Not because they have magical talent
I swear you people are like children believing in superpowers lol stop watching marvel movies dude

>>5046033
You think its vague because you want an algorithm that could teach a monkey to be a good artist
You have to use your brain not just repeat things
This isn't muscle memory
>>5046036
Understanding principle requires you to think about it, thank you for proving my point

Talent doesn't exist, the shit I drew in middle school and the shit I draw now are so drastically different it's almost like a different person drew them.

Talent exists, but it just means you start the trail running rather than walking. Talented people can get distracted or not work as hard, and the walker will surpass them.

i grinded for hours to get to my skill level, but i always say dumb shit like "idk i taught myself" or "i just drew what i saw lol" whenever someone asks me how i learned/got good.

>>5046318
>People develop faster because they do exercises intentionally

Girls learn to speak faster than boys of the same age due to them having more connections in their language center
https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2013/02/language-gene-more-active-young-girls-boys#:~:text=During%20this%20same%20time%20period,and%20accumulating%20larger%20vocabularies%20faster. While males brains have connections in areas involving motor skills.
Humans with greater testosterone build muscle faster than those with lower.

There are biological factors that impact developmental potential. Humans are not blanks slates.
https://watermark.silverchair.com/18-3-553.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAAp4wggKaBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggKLMIIChwIBADCCAoAGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQM0sCOnyCScqF8b6WoAgEQgIICUYDJoPqFPURzTNQv-rXBRM3SpEzLRmmP4hBOLmm0WjEf8KkZL9skd8vw0nCZ-IDZPimCZ4zowRgHgpcZFVWywvmdzV-InY0AzFxqTeWdZiwsa5n3wtLxsstWuQCBekTxRqQ-1ubHTlsYEceTDvgcKfSipPsj4OGD-QV99PA7WVD2opJy58-9gIwiFEg9zBgROM7ogj65aszTwvD4dLE6125JRVx_j6Df8b029N3Xn1OXoVV8oc6dDltSaY69E4aznjDeBrEth7wmsN9jZvPW1QfUdfkPLJhdnHMV8Vyz68DEnEL1iwlpvQ9Ilf_Z4e_4RCblzFlTwVcBZ2rB3I61iSnr1eAuTVqLZ6MB8tZ9pyQs08CYqT5GZ7VIANrCF0tLQo-0sSbrkg-f0_Vi_-11BCWMZlt5rZiWEUSLpMBU7uXdkphNbs5RAjjx7fEF3Exu_lJL19iu_adPnI6d1Ca-bgF8KIzBKoOZgmt5w6um7QT1cNTL8QHxCc4qH5LAOyBsCPtH2jJgmduBOIHgosY3CziIOK7WV--Owv3qV6fqdFGNOMITC23qeoPDqM8EzkgMoRMh00In5XU0dquqke7k9XD-y5Uc1NvOthICyAFL7kG2-XHmi8iO_hO72TSLlL3ueZ-OYVQCEYGZFVm5XFKLAvEPGcD_6M00DeO7BM4-hz3HSjMNRy8a121z9hKStmxG6mKHihc-Iz9posptS4pGU_2BtNWq1NInKboAaqHsn75XisRE2jq6hH7iGrUcRg_uktAY7vphLFtn_XMIgGhXf3Sz

>>5046420
for>>5046308
>>5046318
>Understanding principle requires you to think about it, thank you for proving my point


Understanding something means you don't have to think about it. It's knowing what to do and working on autopilot from there. Just because it's mentally challenging for YOU doesn't mean it's not simple and easy for anyone else. 1 explanation is all you should need in many foundations in art. "That makes sense let's move on"

>>5046420
Drawing, programming, composing aren't natural skills.
The "modern" human body is 10k-20k years, in this little period of time the body can't just evolve to accomodate our interest for drawing, programming and so on.

Instead of crying like a bitch, just draw every day.
The difference between you and a successfull person is not intellect, it is grit.

I should thank you. Your crying motivates me. I'll do everything in my power to not become a person like you.

>>5046463
years old*

>>5046463
> can't just evolve to accomodate our interest for drawing, programming and so on

Skills like drawing and programming are direct results of humans evolving pattern recognition, language, and motor skills for tool crafting.


>Instead of crying like a bitch, just draw every day.

I do that for fun anyways. When I want to improve I seek feedback because there's mistakes you sometimes miss.

>you and a successfull person is not intellect, it is grit.

There are alot of bad artists who are "successful" so that's kinda an empty goal. I want to make work I'm proud of. And I'm getting closer everyday

>Your crying motivates me.

Your motivation coming from others rather than yourself explains why you don't enjoy making art.

>>5046511
I never said that your crying is the only thing that motivates me.
Stop manipulating, little shit.

>>5040354
>why do people who are magic not believe in magic?
This is how stupid you sound.

>>5046516
You only ever describe drawing as a chore to slog through. If you love something it isn't "hard" to do everyday. Drawing alot is the easiest and most fun part of it.

>>5046511
>blahblahblah
COPE

>>5040354
Here, /ic/, take the patented Talent Test:

Solve this maze by moving at one pixel per minute.
The lower the number of pixels you need to solve the maze, and the less time it takes you to solve it, the more talented you are.
Did you pick a dead end right away? Did you go down a winding path that eventually lead nowhere and wasted a ton of time? Sorry kiddo, I guess you're just not talented!

With higher IQ and more careful observation, you may be able to solve this maze a little faster than the average person. If you just brute force the maze without thinking, you will probably solve it slower than the average person. If you just guess wildly, you may get lucky and solve it faster than the average person, or you may get unlucky and solve it slower than the average person. If you have a mentor recommending major paths to go down while steering you clear of other paths that lead to dead ends, you will solve it even faster.

This is how learning works.

>>5040354
Here, /ic/, take the patented Talent Test:

Solve this maze by moving at one pixel per minute.
The lower the number of pixels you need to solve the maze, and the less time it takes you to solve it, the more talented you are.
Did you pick a dead end right away? Did you go down a winding path that eventually lead nowhere and wasted a ton of time? Sorry kiddo, I guess you're just not talented!

With higher IQ and more careful observation, you may be able to solve this maze a little faster than the average person. If you just brute force the maze without thinking, you will probably solve it slower than the average person. If you just guess wildly, you may get lucky and solve it faster than the average person, or you may get unlucky and solve it slower than the average person. If you have a mentor recommending major paths to go down while steering you clear of other paths that lead to dead ends, you will solve it even faster.

This is how learning works.

>>5046420
Wrong, girls learn to speak faster because we culturally talk to and ask young girls more questions, they are seen as more fragile and needing of hand holding, so they get more things explained and more questions asked to make sure they're happy and ok, its a volume thing more than anything else, brain adapts to experiences
I get it, science is your religion and you want to think you're superior because you chose to focus on getting good at drawing pictures
You're not special bro, and if you were chosen by the universe to be good at drawing you probably wouldn't be terrified of posting your work

>>5046458
The problem is that people have gaps in their learning, which means later concepts require more thinking and going back to foundations for people that missed things earlier
Someone with "talent" got lucky early on and didn't miss any of those fundamentals so things seem intuitive later on when in reality you just had a more complete learning experience
This isn't hard to understand, I don't know why you're so upset and being so defensive about it
There is no magical talent you've been imbued with by the gods, stop living in a cartoonist fantasy reality

>>5046540
If you were so "talented you would be able to figure out that the person you replied to wasn't the person you were talking to earlier (me)
I never said drawing was a chore to slog through, you inferred and projected that onto my posts
I said that people who aren't good at something need to drill fundamentals, which, if you haven't learned how to or chosen to enjoy doing exercises, could seem like a chore sure. I enjoy doing exercises and focusing on specific areas though so you can stop projecting
Maybe if you weren't afraid of doing targeted exercises because you're afraid it would feel like a chore, you would be able to improve faster. Unless you believe you're already as good as you can get which is probably the case since you think your mystical concept of talent determines how technically skilled and creative someone can be
It really comes down to choice. Do you you choose to be good? Ok, it takes dedication and effort (which can be enjoyable if you choose to enjoy it)
Effort as in putting pen to paper, actually making art and practicing
If you choose to stop projecting your bizarre hang ups onto others you might be able improve, give it a shot friendo

>>5040605
Yes goy, everyone can do the same, everyone has the same capabilities, everything is a social construct and just bad idiosyncrasy, breed whit niggers, we're all the same, just a matter of education...

Actual answer - the reason highly skilled artists undervalue their work is because they're constantly identifying flaws that need to be fixed, to the point where it's all they can see. Others that take satisfaction in their work and gloss over errors never end up fixing them or developing, and end up with a lower overall standard.

If you're one of those artists that struggles to be happy with what you do, remember that it's a natural consequence of wanting to be better than you are.

>>5046631
What a pointlessly convoluted way of illustrating a simple concept. You should feel embarrassed posting this.

>>5040615
this is the cope
OP is trying to find others that validate their beliefs and will ignore everyone else

>>5047493
> I enjoy doing exercises and focusing on specific areas though so you can stop projecting

Then you should consider it "Easy" to draw consistently not "hard". The key is finding the joy in making art so you want to do it all the time not have to "force" yourself to do it.

>Maybe if you weren't afraid of doing targeted exercises

Why would I be afraid of them? Fundamental principles can be applied to everything. There's logic behind how light and shape work. When I see something new I want to try it because getting that jolt from solving a new equation is great.

>you're afraid it would feel like a chore,

I have drawn literally every subject with multiple mediums and had a blast with all of them

> Do you you choose to be good? Ok, it takes dedication and effort

Not if you love what you do, then it just comes naturally.

>If you choose to stop projecting your bizarre hang ups onto others you might be able improve, give it a shot friendo

I have seen steady improvement my entire life as an artist. Even if I didn't I would still draw because it's something that makes me feel like nothing else.

People with real talent would rather draw than bitch about talent and get into retarded debates go on 4chan

>>5040354
what's talent
is that a food?

>>5048482
Looks like you're just not talented at interpeting simple metaphors.

>>5048548
Sounds like you're confusing talent with enjoyment
I accept your concession

>>5045027
>the way every single artistic production of worth has ever been done is pointless
Just fucking quit already you're a waste of oxygen.

>>5048447
Niggers are a different story
We're talking about the white population

>>5045843
That's called intelligence and some people are better at it because they parents actually gave a shit about them and didn't let them eat glue.
They're not just throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks like you, they were taught to discern useful from useless information, you could do exactly the same if you weren't too busy denying yourself progress to save your ego.

>>5046631
What kind of ape can't solve this shit first try?

>>5048753
4chan cumbrains

>>5048728
Enjoyment aka taste is an inherent quality that varies to person to person.So I include in the definition of talent.

>>5048735
>the way every single artistic production of worth has ever been done is pointless

90% of creative content is shit. There's a reason only a few gems are considered timeless.

>>5048745
>That's called intelligence and some people are better at it
>better at it
>better at intelligence


Intelligence is cognitive ability and problem solving and is entirely dependent on neurological characteristics. This is like saying "Better at being tall".

>>5048800
Manlet detected.

>>5048831
If you ever DARE to say something bad to >>504831 again, I'm going to fucking destroy you.

>>5048786
And every single one of those is iterative you stupid retard.

>>5048800
You don't understand intelligence.
Not your fault, even scientists don't quite get it yet.
Explaining simple problem solving tools to a baseline intellect person gets you a greater performance improvement than there is between 120IQ and 130IQ people, whom by the way, use said problem solving tools among others to improve their performance already.

If you would just fucking draw you'd improve faster.

>>5048925
>Explaining simple problem solving tools
>Explaining

We weren't talking about education (which undeniably leads to improvement) We're talking about reasoning, the ability to find an answer on your own by making logical connections between data. It's the difference between invention and instruction.


>If you would just fucking draw you'd improve faster

You keep falling back on this assumption. Even though it's baseless, personally untrue (I do 5 hours a day minimum), and provably ineffective for certain people by searching through "10 years later" posts.
Anecdotal point here, I grinded at shading ( my weakest area at the time in high school) but saw my fastest improvement in it by reading books. As the old adage goes "work smarter not harder".

>>5040354
Because everyone believes they’ve worked hard for what they’ve got.

Literally the only reason someone would spend so much time to telling anons that they do or dont have talent is because they have some problem with the idea of people thinking they can work hard and believe in their own ability to improve at something. These threads are also typically devoid of artwork.

Never acknowledge a talentfag that doesnt post art.

>>5045083
talent is by definition what allows one of two people to achieve more with the same access to information and effort put forward, you don't just get to decide what words mean, dipshit. neck yourself

>>5049288
no one's telling anyone anything like that since, as you so astutely noted, there's no art in this thread. people are just claiming that talent exists and retards are responding by saying the only difference is hard work. there's no art in this thread because anyone who posted their work would just get crabbed by the other side

>>5049296
correct. but i still think all parties in these threads should post their work. afraid of getting crabbed or hounded = afraid of critique.

>>5049169
Wow you're so retarded you don't even understand you're saying I'm right.

>>5049293
No two people have the same access to information and effort put towards anything.
"Talented" people in the arts and sciences seem naturally inclined to do things because they had better early development. Virtuosos play like they're 18 at 6 because they've put in the same time as the 18 year old despite being six.

No, you're not equal. Yes, they're better than you. But it's not because they were born better unless you're literally handicapped, it's because their parents and teachers gave a damn about them, and yours didn't.

You can catch up if you put in the time now that they put in when they were five. But you won't, you don't have it in you.