/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>4606585
I can imagine op not being a flaming homosexual

>>4606586
That is imagination over 9000 my friend. Congratulations!

>>4606585
People like to pretend they can't do things to get attention, especially women.

Sure, I can do it in my head but that doesn't mean I can draw it perfectly.

>>4606585
>rotating it in an axis
I like to rotate it with my imagined hand. Its easier

>>4606645
Because you jerk off so much the image is burned is.

I don't see what it has to do with anything, it's not like you can translate that image into lines or colors. If drawing was that easy none of us would be here.

>>4606585
Yeah I'm one of them, it exists and it sucks, op you're a faggot as usual.

>inb4 it's not real
If it wasn't real then why the fuck did I get a brain scan confirming it

>>4606649
Do you watch yourself masturbate anon?

>>4606660
Constantly.

>>4606652
kek how can a brainscan confirm such a thing

>>4606668
There's a section of the brain that controls imagination. It either fires off like mad when you have an over active imagination, or there's barely any activity at all when you have under active or zero imagination. You go in the machine and they ask you to imagine something (red star, blue triangle, objects, etc) they scan your brain while you're trying to think of shit.

Mine doesn't have any activity and I have never had a dream in my life, so mine is dead. Confirmed by brain scan. Fuck you.

>>4606585
This is so weird to me. I'm probably beyond a 1.

I can not only see the apple clearly but also recall how it smells or sound in a variety of ways. I can see every shade of pore and bead of dew on the skin as well as the texture of what's inside. It's shocking to me that not everyone can do this.

>>4606678
Not the guy you replied to.

How well can you draw from imagination? are you capable of it?

>>4606678
Sounds like Scientology tier pseudoscience to me faggot

>>4606585
Yeah. I'm a 5 on that pic.

>>4606682
I'm shit at it. The best I can do is think of a concept and find refs to work off of.

It's like a concept artists work flow of mixing animals together by grabbing a few interesting photos and taking the things they like from them, plus using their understanding of anatomy and forms to put it all together. But it's for everything. Every piece goes through tons of composition sketches and research. It sucks ass. I never know what my painting is going to look like until it's done. I noodle around with shapes and shit a lot to find something interesting. Everything is meticulously researched, studied, and planned out.

I can act as a photocopier really well but I hate that shit.

I can only vividly rotate objects if I have relaxed and meditated for like 5 min cuz I've done visualization a lot.

>>4606749
Holy crap. I never knew people were so limited in their imagination. I can literally visualize an apple doing a backflip while transforming into another object without any effort. This makes me rethink how people think.

>>4606704
glen keane has aphantasia, ur not doomed to draw with references

What is this anyway? what is the general consensus? I had a discussion with a friend once where he was unable to even think in pictures, whereas I can quite easily recall my entire appartement and pretty much anything and do a 3d flyby and scale that outwards. It was pretty surreal to think that people can't do that, especially a single object like an apple and he was pretty down about it too for a while.
Is this just something that you can train or something you are born with? what are the deciding factors?

I think KJG expained it pretty well with creating a "mini-me" inside a virtual space inside your head and flying around objects

>>4606704
when you read a book, do you not see the characters and the scenes during their conversations and stuff

>>4606806
i do not "see" with my brain as a vision, but i "see" with my knowledge of it

>>4606815
so you experience your mental world purely through language/concepts rather than visualizations

>>4606704
Salgood Sam (aka Max Douglas) is another artist with aphantasia, you should check out his workflow.

Regardless of the humblebrag, shitposters and begs spouting advice, this is actually a pretty interesting topic.
How do you guys build shapes in your head? for me it's almost like a 3d program like blender where I can just raise/lower/subtract shapes forms and colors ect.

>>4606585
Those people on 4 and five will probably shit on Kim jung gi and tell you how trad they are. The ultimate inferior genlets

yeah miya i can

>>4606585
I go from 1 to 3 when I take my adhd meds

>>4606876
muscle memory from many gesture/figure drawing, and after putting the first shape it becomes easier to put the rest since you can use that as a starting point, if that makes sense

>>4606585

>>4606585
I’ve trained myself from 4 to somewhere between 2 and 3. Basically I sit down with earplugs and force myself to imagine shit. I can rotate the objects and sense them in 3d, but color is an issue.

>>4606586
truly the eye into the impossible. hallelujah brother.

It's called aphantasia, look it up.

>>4607005
Can you draw what you imagine tho?

>>4606585
The longer I let an idea to develop in my head the harder it gets to put on canvas. It starts to split into multiple iterations of itself: same character in different poses from different angles, in different environments in different outfits with varying level of stylization. If I start drawing immediately it all goes well and smooth but if an idea ripens for too long I'll have to struggle with choosing one definitive version of it.

>>4606650
>it's not like you can translate that image into lines or colors
is this a joke?

>>4606650
if you can visualize it, you can draw it. at that point it's just connecting the imaginary line to your hand muscle.
You can literally draw blind with enough practice and strong enough visualization

>>4607154
Eh I probably couldn't draw blind because I have dsypraxia, but I could draw in a padded cell lol. Most people can draw without anything in front of them, right?

>>4607154
famous case of easier said than done

>>4607163
yeah maybe if you have a brain injury lmao

>>4607163
yea it is, but anon denounced it as being usefull in its entirety.
Just being able to imagine a cityscape in simple geometric shapes by closing your eyes or playing a movie in your head or flying through a town or rotating an apple or even just imagining a color is a pretty good boon.
If you don't have it, sucks, but if you do, embrace the 'tism and enjoy it and with enough practice who knows. Don't hold your punches

Gambatte /ic/, to both the level 5 and level 1ers
I believe in you
Art believes in you
People have done it before you
People will do it after you
The only thing that matters is where you will be and where you are now
Life as a proof of concept has already been figured out
Enjoy it

>>4607158
Yea it's a non-issue
For every strength there is also a weakness
It's why the age thing is so retarded, There are people unable to form images in their mind and there are 18 year olds complaining about having to put in work for a skill for the first time in their lives
It's just one small piece of a large puzzle and you'd have to win the genetic, time, place, family, culture, country and luck lottery to not have it be really fucked up

There are people studying loomis hands that don't have hands themselves and people are complaining about starting drawing 2 years later than the average pro

>>4607101
I’m better at drawing than imagining. Whenever I look at anything throughout the day I look at it by breaking it apart into the components I would use if I were going to draw it. Drawing from imagination is more difficult, but I can usually extrapolate something if I have a visual library built up for it.

>>4606586
gmi

>>4606585
I can do long scenes kidna like animation and can rotate picture in any angle with colors and shit
Maybe because i had that time when i was 10-11 y.o when i was imagining shit before i go to sleep.I always liked grown women like 20-25 or so,so i was pushing hard to imagine spending my time with them and travelling to some different locations like seeing a movie in my imagination

Can do it barely like a 3 or 4

Nothing you cant practise

>>4606585
I don't understand this image. I can't decide which end I'm on because I can't comprehend how the middle ones can be possible.

>>4607303
the tl;dr is that if you can't do the middle one, you can't do the other ones either.
2, 3, 4 are/should be easy for 1 who has total control of their jedi mind autism powers probably with a high dose of ADHD, autism or both where their brains aren't capable of being 5

>>4606585
most people can. the trick is to draw it out.

>>4607310
>2, 3, 4 are/should be easy for 1 who has total control of their jedi mind autism powers
It saddens me that some people think basic visual imagination is "jedi mind autism powers".

I'm a 5 but my dreams are in 1
also I can totally rotate an object thinking about it it's just not visualized but that's where drawing comes in.

also after seeing this I realized people might be being literal about building a visual library. I just took it as observe things closely and learn about them.

>>4607444
>also I can totally rotate an object thinking about it it's just not visualized
Sounds like you're visualizing and not realizing it. If you can imagine what it looks like, you're visualizing. You never see it with your actual eyes unless you're an actual post-human god that has trained in tulpamancy for decades.

>>4606668
like that, look

My friend isnt very good a drawing, but claims to be able to visualize stuff perfectly. I'm not a very strong visualizer but i can draw decently. If I try to focus on a detail in a mental image, it tends to get confusing.
Can someone please explain how you can visualize perfectly, and yet cant draw that well, I believe its possible, but I honestly just cant even comprehend it.

>>4606585
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-tvs8a_hOQo

kek

>>4606585
Either a 1 or a 5 but I can't tell.
I can imagine things rotated in three dimensional space with relative ease, but I wouldn't say I "visualize" it?
That is, if I close my eyes and think of an apple, I don't summon the visual feedback of an apple in my mind as if I were staring at one in front of me. It's sort of like sight beyond sight. The visual concept exists mentally but devoid of any literal physical optical presentation.

Now, as a child, I was most definitely a 1. Full imaginary friend "He's right there!" mode visualization even with open eyes.

>>4606585
Either 2 or 4, no in-between

1 or 2 depending. If I just let my mind automatically fill in details it's 1 but if I try to create up my own it tends to go to 2 until I kind of got it in my head the exact topology of the details I want. On more complex things my mind will summarize information and I'll get the whole spectrum with some things just representing an area consisting of smaller details. That's probably more of being lazy though.

>>4607407
no, I call it jedi mind powers because people think having 1 is going to automatically make them kim jung gi and are acting that way now too as if they were born being vastly superior to others because of this simple trait
reminds me of that NPC meme when people realized some people don't/arent capable of thinking consciously in words/sentences to the same degree as this picture

>>4607497
>The visual concept exists mentally but devoid of any literal physical optical presentation.
Thats how all kinds of imaginations work unless youre a schizo, anon

>>4607607
I don't think, the meme was that they can VISUALIZE explicitly. I as anon who you are responding, can't do.
Myself I can't VISUALIZE, what I can however is to "know" how the object is. I can recall from memory details, which I would describe as "knowing" them, not really seeing or visualizing.

>>4607582
>people think having 1 is going to automatically make them kim jung gi
they don't, but it helps a lot
>as if they were born being vastly superior to others because of this simple trait
well, they are

>>4607461
I guess, the way I interpreted that pic is that people close their eyes and can produce a literal visual representation which does not happen for me.

I'm like this anon >>4607659

>>4607666
That would be fucking retarded. Nobody sees a literal light projection of an apple on the back of their eyelids. They are imagining it all, some people are just really good at imagining with their minds eye so to them it feels like seeing even though that isn't physically happening.

>>4607666

I think some people are just struggling to conceptualize the difference between the two, which has gotten others confused. I've had the experience of literally SEEING things from my mind... when I'm dreaming or on drugs. In normal circumstances, "visualizing" in the mind's eye does not produce an actual image, only a mental impression of one. If people could conjure up literal images on the backs of their eyelids, then they wouldn't be saying things like "if only I could draw from it" because it would be no different than drawing from a life reference. This meme is making regular people think they have aphantasia.

>>4607669
That means that people who brags about being able to visualize are retards, because they aren't having any visual stimulus.

How about not being a bitch about visualizing it in your head and just spontaneously spilling thoughts on canvas.

I'm 3 on that scale and i can only imagine in near B&W. I can rotate objects in snapshots. I find it easier to let your imagination flow once I already have something to start with and imagine changes in hue when there is an actual subject i see already so i don't beat around the bush with drawing.

>>4606585
>can perfectly envision whatever it is I have in mind
>can barely actually draw anything and get frustrated and give up because I can't even come close to the image I have in my head

Why am I like this?

>>4607468
When you can’t visualise well, you learn how to dissect things when looking at them which makes your understanding of them better

>>4606586
Fpbp

>he has to rotate on an axis, can't freely rotate objects
ngmi op.

>>4606876
I can visualize but I actually don't need to when drawing, except for some small flashes of ideas. I build drawings more by feel than anything else. Kind of what >>4606941 says, it's extrapolating from what you've already drawn.

>>4608069
>concept art forums be like

>>4608069
if I keep practicing my super sharingan blanco I'll be able to project images from my mind directly onto the canvas.
While all of you are studying the form and the pencil, I am studying the mind and finding inner peace. Checkmate drawfags

>>4606585
if I try to do this specific thing with an apple my brain just plays back the Crash Bandicoot wumpa fruit sprite

>>4607874
because your brain is lying to you and you aren't picturing anything in your head.

>>4606593
Women aren't pretending though. They're actually that retarded.

>>4606593
Nope, this is what the npc meme was origianlly about anon
see>>4606650
Probably more than half of all people are 4 and below, ive tested this on all my friends. Me personally, Although i can see 1 its at a low opacity like litterally 20% opacity even in my mind. Ive talked to some friends that say they see 1 with 100 opacity and could fully imagine things ocupying real life space with them. Crazy innit

>>4606585
I remember discovering this when determining stereochemistry in organic chemistry. The fact a lot of people couldn’t just imagine a ball and stick model of molecules and rotate them as appropriate was surprising. Of course there’s a big difference between imagining something and being able to draw that rotation accurately, but I suppose that’s more of a skill issue rather than an actual imagination issue.

>>4606666
>masturbates
>post id ends in 666
no thanks, satan. just proved nofap right again

>>4606585
i can see 5-2 easily and manipulate them to my will. If i try to imagine 1, i end up thinking of a real apple in my hands, like if you were imagining yourself experiencing something in 1st person rather than imagining the object by itself

>if I imagine something I've seen before it's photographic and I can view it from any angle freely
>if I imagine a picture I want to draw it's in the style I want to draw it in but is fragmented and difficult to imagine the entire picture
I feel like I'm on the verge of working out something big but I don't know what it is.

>>4606585
Obscourse not, another idiotic meme of this board.

>>4606585
No clue how anyone could even imagine stuff like 1 entirely in their head. I can imagine entire scenarios and objects but they don't even look like 4. When I close my eyes, I only literally see black, but I can imagine the concept of an apple existing in my vision and I can also rotate it and shit, but I don't literally see anything.

>>4608613
>Nope, this is what the npc meme was origianlly about anon

Wrong. The NPC meme is based on the idea of a philosophical zombie, who has no conscious experience but reacts to stimuli in a way that appears to suggest it.

Consciousness is necessary for the sort of mental visualization described in this thread, but not sufficient. After all, sight is just one of the five or more senses that could be imagined, and conscious thought need not involve sensation at all (we can imagine concepts on their own). Someone with aphantasia is missing only one part of consciousness, and I would argue that it's a very trivial part -- claiming otherwise would be like claiming that a blind person is equivalent to a potato.

>>4609540
>I can imagine the concept of an apple existing in my vision and I can also rotate it and shit, but I don't literally see anything.
This is literally what 1 is describing. If you start seeing imagined things through your literal eyes then that's a mental illness, not advanced visualization.

>>4609640
T-thank you for being understanding and putting it that way. Honestly all the bullying and npc shit over not having a functional imagination made me want to kms so many times but... Idk man thank you

>>4610800
Nope, i know people and other artists that can visualize things in their mind as vividly as reality. Some can even just create objects and place them into reality for reference. This is common in the creative world
https://www.theguardian.com/books/2020/apr/27/majority-of-authors-hear-their-characters-speak-finds-study

>The study, which appeared last month in the journal Consciousness and Cognition, also found that 56% of the writers surveyed reported visual or other sensory experiences of their characters when they were writing, while a fifth had the sense that their character was occupying the same physical space

>>4606585
I used to have the best imagination as a child. Now I have to actually concentrate on it. It fucking sucks

OP here

Disregard that, I suck cocks!

Anyone else can only visualize BAD stuff exclusively?

Like if I think, what would ruin this drawing/what would look bad, I can picture shit easily.

>>4612661
>while a fifth had the sense that their character was occupying the same physical space
Fucking tulpafags

>>4612661
>56% of writers reported that they were special and unique and their imaginary friends were real
lol ok. I've experienced everything they're talking about outside of literally seeing the character like they're in the room, and given the survey used for the report is too vague to even confirm that's what they're referring to when they say "visual or sensory experience" it could easily be misconstrued. Eg. if I imagined a character was in the room I do get that vague feeling of presence/the sense that someone is directly behind me or looking over my shoulder, would that count as a sensory experience? I still don't literally see them but I'd presumably be counted towards this percentage. I can also "hear" characters' voices, in the same manner as with my own internal dialog, but still don't literally hear the characters either.
Maybe there's a brain out there that does but given you never get anyone in these threads claiming to actually be able to see the things they imagine in front of them it's definitely not what the image in the OP is referring to. I can perfectly visualize a scene, place a character in a room to get a sense for their scale etc. but it's not composited into the sensory information I'm receiving through my eyes like a green screen, it's more like it's happening in another place or on another sensory layer. You could take the diagram as literal: it feels more like the images are originating from inside of my head somewhere, rather than in front of me.

>>4612661
>>4613578
The study you quoted doesn't even have "literally saw the character like they were in the actual room" as a category, but a category titled "actual hallucination" involving the senses is at 21%, grouped in with auditory hallucinations. Of the *38* individuals to *report* experiencing actual hallucinations there's no info on how many experienced visual hallucinations. It's also a survey of only 181 people.
>https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7068700/table/t0010/?report=objectonly
Also read the actual report next time instead of a sensationalized tabloid article. The Guardian, dude, really?

>>4606585
>t-talent isn’t real! Everybody can become a pro if they just work hard

>>4613597
>because aphantasia exists that must mean visualization can't be learned!
>if I can't be good at art without being able to visualize that must mean nobody can!
Crab bucket brainlets feel free to use talent as excuse for sucking while us 600iq gigachads powerlevel our visualization skill by meditating on the perfect anime titty for 100 consecutive hours

>>4613593
I've kept reading just because the study's sort of interesting and it turns out the only instances of literal visual hallucinations even reported in the study were completely unrelated to the creative process, which is cool because the closest it gets is some authors reporting having had the most common kind of hallucination that exists. I've personally experienced hypnagogic hallucinations around the end of insomniac episodes, and would be counted in this category by the survey. The more I read the more content of the report just further and further reflects my own experiences and reinforces the point that you were trying to use it to refute. Honestly pretty hilarious, I'll probably use this one as a source next time this debate gets rehashed on an art forum somewhere. Thanks, dude!

>>4613597
Do you count industriousness as talent?

>>4613650
>you can learn to increase your IQ
Brainlet detected. IQ is fixed and doesn’t change after you hit 25. post your work and show us your „chad“ drawing from memory. Oh, you have been drawing for less than three years. I guess you don’t want to make any money from art

>>4613693
>can't read

>>4613650
If you started drawing in your 20s then it’s too late. Perfect pitch for example can only be achieved if you have the genetic potential and start training as a child.

>>4613697
>can’t make the aphantasia go away

>>4613700
>a neurological condition is the same as having poor visualization

>>4613702
>aphantasia is a neurological condition
Having shit genes must suck. I bet you are also a manlet

>>4613699
It's true, source: official study conducted by the Ass Institute of My Butt, MA.

>>4613706
>still can't read

>>4613683
No.

>>4606585
I xan only imagine in great detail if i am told exactly what to picture. If you say that you want me to see an apple in my mind’s eye, i usually picture a Gala or a Fuji. If you meant, say a Golden Delicious or McIntosh, you’d have to tell me. Specificity becomes a problem when there are so many options.

>>4613650
>the absolute inability to imagine things exists, but you can still learn it
How the fuck can you think like this?

>>4613834
Wishful thinking and lashing out when somebody disagrees with them due to lack of emotional control

>>4613834

I'm not sure whether you have retard-tier reading comprehension or are just unable to comprehend ideas that are not strictly black-and-white. Anon was claiming that people with moderate skill in mental visualization can improve that skill, not that people with aphantasia can develop the ability to visualize mentally.

>>4613834
Those were two separate points retard. I believe you're both likely able to overcome the disadvantage of aphantasia through alternative means because I know skilled artists that claim to have aphantasia and I also believe you're able to improve upon the ability to visualize because I've personally experienced getting better at doing it the more I draw alongside lapses in my ability to visualize when I'm drawing less.
>>4613839
Kinda like the lack of emotional control you'd need to make retarded kneejerk, no-reading-comprehension responses like this?

>>4613834
How do you think deaf people think if they have never heard how do letters sound?

>>4606585
It weird because i tend to work on a different way. I'm probably at a 2 when I try to visualize things(1 when I'm relaxed) but most of the time I don't visualize at all, rather I get a feeling of something whithout any visual images popping up in my head and i can use that "feeling" like an image reference and I usually get better results than when I try to use image visualization.

>>4606585
I can imagine colors and forms just fine, but only if i'm not aware of it, i mean, only when i dive into my own thoughts without realizing it

Anyone else ever see images on surfaces? Like sitting on your school table looking down and just seeing images of things?

>>4614273

That "feeling of something" is what the whole thread is about. If you also literally visualize things then you have schizophrenia.

>>4614771
No because I don't have fucking schizophrenia induced by tulpafagging

>>4606585
Haha no one actually is less then a 1 right? This is all a joke r-right?

>>4614827
Lacking imagination ngmi

>>4606679
So why are you still so fucking bad at drawing then?

>>4606585
Fuck image vivid, what about image permanence? Like tell me anons can you imagine something, put your pencil down and draw it without the image disapearing for a noticeable amount of time?

I cant see anything unless I take drugs. After I take psychedelics its like Im at 2 at least and drawing becomes so much fucking easier. I feel like I can draw everything and feel the form perfectly. Otherwise when Im sober, the skill difference is fucking extremely drastic.
This is literally a curse. Im jealous of you stupid fucks who have this naturally, Im NGMI because of this.

>>4606585
I can't. I have trouble imagining and telling faces apart

>>4615262
Honest answer: I have a really hard time "holding" an image in my mind's eye for a considerable amount of time, UNLESS it's porn. Porn is really easy to picture for some reason. Drawing porn activates the secondary brain in my dick or something.

>there are people walking around with completely blank minds
what the fuck