/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>4499781
I general Japs copy everything and then warp it. Thats basically what anime and manga are.
They are penultimate consumers-appropriators.

>>4499781
The Ruroni Kenshin mangaka spent every volume telling you how Jim Lee was the best artist ever and how the X Men were the coolest thing you could read. Moebius had a HUGE influence on everyone though, like Otomo and Miyazaki. Otomo felt like he could make mangas the way he wanted to when he read Moebius, and Nausicaa is practically a Moebius ripoff. Urasawa said he felt Moebius was on another level when he looked at his art for the first time. And when Moebius died many mangaka were like "i wish we had an artist as respected as Moebius in Japan" or "I wish manga was seen as art, like Moebius did with comics".

>>4499781
I don't know how they are received by the japanese, but I think that the art of some western comics is way better than the art of the best japanese mangas. People like David Finch and Jim Lee are just amazing.

It sucks that almost every comic has a childish and empty story. I wish there were more works that had a good manga style story but with top tier comic book art.

>>4499781
Amano mentioned in an interview once that he was really into western comics, especially Batman.

>>4499839
I agree. I feel the same way about a lot of 80s/early 90s anime. Great art that outstrips anything being done today, but generally mediocre and boring writing. It sucks that we have to choose between the two. Why does it seem so hard to combine them?

>>4499854
youre just old and dont understand style. Subjective preferences = objective. Modern styles are better, far more dynamic, expressive and "animated".

>>4499839
If you think that image is better than stuff in berserk or anything from Hiroaki Samura, I got bad news for you.

>>4499854
>Why does it seem so hard to combine them?
I think that the main reason is that comics are mostly aimed at little kids (with some exceptions), and so the stories are for kids.

I also think that they way companies like Marvel or DC think about their business is different from how a mangaka thinks about his business. M&DC think about Batman and all their characters as cows that they want to milk indefinitely, so they keep coming up with storylines that never go anywhere, always going back to the starting point. Heroes never really die, don't age, nothing really happens.

Mangakas are just individuals who usually want to tell a good story and show their art, and after a while may decide to do something else and they end their stoy. So there's a finality to what they do, the story is usually going somewhere.

Another possible reason (which could be wrong) is that great stories tend to require more issues to flesh out, and that is why they tend to happen in mangas (which can be published more frequently than comic books because they don't require as much effort to draw). Comic art takes longer to produce because it's just better. It's hard to produce the 300+ issue run that may be required to tell a specific story in a lifetime, so mangakas don't put as much time into each page they draw as comic book artists do.

>>4499872
I've read every issue of Berserk and some of the art is good, but it's really overrated, so I guess I disagree with you. Especially at the beginning of the series; many of the drawings would be panned in a /beg/ thread. There are better drawn mangas imo.

>>4499870
I was born in 1992 and barely grew up on any anime in the old style. Certainly not anything from the 80s. The defining anime from my childhood was stuff like Yugioh, Shaman King, One Piece, all stuff that I would say definitely has a newer look to it. And I still think that a lot of older anime have way more artistic appeal than anything being produced today.

>>4499909
Ok

this guy is an inspiration to me

>>4499781
Trigun is heavily influenced by comics

>>4499872
Berserk looks like shit now. And even Miura's older stuff, although quite good, isn't as good as Finch's monster and dark stuff.

>>4500558
Finch is one of a kind, his originals sell for tons of money and fast.

>>4499781
Jim Lee is GOD level, the man's quality is almost unreachable the color, the scenario, the details, the shading

>>4499839
You’re underselling manga to try and make a point.

Manga has people like Yusuke Murata and Takehiko Inoue who give people like Jim Lee a run for their money. Especially since their inking is significantly better than their western counterparts. Don’t get me wrong, Jim Lee is great, and has phenomenal use of light and shadow, but when it comes down to raw technique with ink, I think the Japanese take the cake, especially since they also apply calligraphy techniques to their work.

>>4499897
I don't really get why Berserk's art is so highly praised. Yes, it's extremely detailed, but from what I've seen, the characters don't look very appealing and the posing feels very stiff. Also, the extreme amount of detail can sometimes make the pages feel busy and incoherent. Pic related is an example of all 3, and I found it among collections of its "best art"

>>4500799
More find sun-ken rock is better.

>>4500799
Because of pages like this.

And because it’s so rich and full of imagination it’s been very influential in modern culture. Without it, Dark Souls literally wouldn’t exist.

>>4500710
>>4500080
Can't tell if you're joking. This is so unappealing and flat.

>>4499781

>>4500853
the superman one is decent, it just looks incomplete because is not inked and colored, would like to see the final one to know if its look.

>>4500727
jim lee does not ink his own work most of the time though

>>4500874
Colors always make Lee’s work way worse.

>>4500882
My point exactly. His pencils are nice, but he lacks the inking technique with a brush that the best Japanese mangaka have.

>>4500883
that is why i didnt say how "it would be better"
and if its ruin at the end, why it would matter his good art if at the end it gets ruinned

>>4499889
>I think that the main reason is that comics are mostly aimed at little kids (with some exceptions), and so the stories are for kids.
This excuse will NEVER fly.
Shounen like Dragon Ball are aimed at kids and yet the stories are good enough to be enjoyed by everyone.
Also with how popular capeshit is in the US, the excuse falls even harder on its face because the average American comics fan is probably 30+ now.

>>4500727
>>4500853
Thoughts on this piece?

>>4500853
Pye bigbrain

>>4501016
Yeah I got that guy bookmarked he's got really nice shading.

>>4500937
>Shounen like Dragon Ball are aimed at kids and yet the stories are good enough to be enjoyed by everyone
Yeah nah. Watching dragon ball as an adult is painful, but maybe you have a point.

>>4501127
I am watching DB for the first time right now at 28 and it's great.

>>4500727
I really liked Vagabond, the art is good but the story is better than the art imo. It looks nice but it never really made me go "holy shit" with any of the drawings. Inoue also brags about how he can draw a chapter much faster than average, and how he spends most of his time thinking about the writing. I believe him.

I really admire Murata though, I'll agree that some of the stuff Murata does come close to the best comics.

>>4501177
>I'll agree that some of the stuff Murata does come close to the best comics.
The hell are you on about? It completely demolishes it. There’s not a single western comic book artist that has come even remotely close to the stuff we see in OPM.

>>4501193

>>4501193
3/4

>>4501193
>It completely demolishes it.
No it doesn't, take it easy. David Finch, some Greg Capullo, Jim Lee, etc

>>4501193
It’s not even just the crazy amount of artistic skill in his detailed drawings. It’s not only the larger than life compositions that sell the impact of his shots, on top of all that, his pictures MOVE despite being still frames. No comic artist does this, even if they match his drawing skill on pen and ink, he still beats them in composition and movement, both of which are more important for sequential art.

>>4501177
>>4501193
Completely agree, his new stuff is so fucking good and he's releasing every other week now

>>4501205
Yes it does. See >>4501208


Show me any sequence by any of the artists you just mentioned that have the same skill in regard to composition and movement. Comics aren’t illustration. You’re not making pretty drawings, your job is to tell a story, which requires you make your characters MOVE.

Again, even if they can match Murata’s drawing skill, he still beats them out in the other two categories.

>>4501208
His art is more akin to a movie storyboard or somethin', which it exactly is for the anime. And I do think that Berserk's art is far more detailed, it is no match against literal fluidity. This comic goes by like a storm that breaks everything in its way, and animation barely renders the still life's nature. Animating Berserk would be like animating paintings one after another, but animating one punch man is trying to render an experience that is specifically tailored for each reader's tempo. It's even worse than trying to animate Berserk in a way. Yes, Berserk is more complex, but at this point even reading the manga is a slow task where Murata's is, I dare say, a fun breeze when compared.

>>4501218
Murata is really good at movement, but movement is not the same as storytelling. Frank Miller is great at storytelling, I don't think Murata is as good. Breaking down a single scene into a million panels that can be animated into a gif doesn't mean good storytelling. I think some American artists are better than Murata, but if you like Murata better that's okay.

>>4501242
I'm not that experienced in comics, if you'd like to share some top-tier artists' names I'd be glad
I only know about mangas and am interested in comics

>>4501242
Stop talking, and show it to me. Sequential art requires movement, even if it's not hyper dynamic action. We already had this exact same discussion in the OTHER east vs west thread some fag made, and I already posted how the Death Note Artist totally blows US comic books out of the water due to better composition and panelling.

To avoid repeating myself, here:

>>4500629

Frank Miller is good, but also horribly overrated. And you've moved goalposts, yet again, you've moved from ART, to Stortelling, which I'm guessing you're referring to visual storytelling given the context, but visual storytelling isn't art... Visual Storytelling can work well with very bad art, just as well as it can with good art, as it relies entirely on composition and cinematography.

Artistically, as in, the artistic skill of how you draw the characters on paper, and how well you convey what's happening on frame. Murata shits all over Miller.

When it comes to visual storytelling, there it becomes more a subjective matter of preference as their styles are completely different. It's like arguing over who is the better director, Coppola or Tarantino.

You can like comics better if you want, but don't be disingeious with your statements when starting a thread over how much better american comic book artists are than japanese mangaka, but when we try to qualify those skills and objectively compare them to one an other, you start to deviate and shift goalposts into totally unrealated topics.

There are three pillars to comics/manga:
Art
Visual Storytelling
Writting

You were debating over who was the better ARTIST. Visual Storytelling is a whole different beast all onto itself.

>>4501263
True
I'm not the person you replied to, but I would say that all those japanese artists we talk about are the creme de la crop ; they were literally filtered by a soulless system of barely minimum wage that is a reverse factory for every other ton of people that were refused where they were accepted. Japan's art is promoted to a max through its isolationnist and "performance" culture. You could argue that western comics are filtered too, through huge publishers and everything, but the problem is that the intentions of the corporations are so different here and there that we end up with barely any recognized artists. It's always attributed to the companies themselves and not to the artists, casual readers don't care for this or that specific story since they want a narrative. Just take a look at all our superhero movies. Can you get a japanese movie with that kind of style and execution? Anyways, I do think that the japanese are insanely good at what they do. It's just sad that we don't get our version of shonen jump here in america. France once tried to open a weekly shonen jump branch for itself and it failed ; it just doesn't seem to be in the american-european culture/genes/whatever the fuck you want to call it.
And don't forget that for every Miura, we get about a thousand shitty mangas that panders to narratives too

>>4501246
Well, a comic book I really liked recently is The Dark Knight Returns. I think the story is good, the storytelling is great, and the art feels very unique. It's not my favorite style of art and didn't like it at first, but it grew on me. I really like the coloring. Frank Miller is very hit and miss, but when he hits it he knocks it out of the park.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=unhgxn9dhGs

>>4501263
>you've moved goalposts, yet again, you've moved from ART, to Stortelling
You're the one who brought up storytelling in a previous post, not me.
>Stop talking, and show it to me.
I don't feel like it. You sound like you're convinced of your shit, so I'm not about to do a bunch of googling for you. Have a good day.

>>4501242
To be fair, all of those "animated" sequential panels are from early OPM, he was clearly still finding his way and probably had a lot of energy to make something pop. His new stuff doesn't have those but is still super cinematic. Pic related is from his most recent chapter.

>>4501205
this is an image board. show us exactly what you think is better.

>>4499781
We don't care about comics, they dont exist even
but we watch the movie

>>4499909
feel free to be wrong

>>4499839
People like ivan reis definitely show the strength of comic book are but I think mangaka's are far better at conveying movement and action. Especially Murata and Itoh Sei.

>>4499929
The environment is beautiful but the faces look like they are melting.

>>4501205
I love those artists man but they don't even come close to Murata when it comes to action, movement, and sequential art. Those comic artists excel at single illustrations, rather than action-packed sequential art. None of them can portray movement with the amount of impact that Murata can.

I would even be as bold to say that Murata does better action scenes than any Marvel/DC comic artist ever.

>>4503181
What Marvel/DC excel at is putting a fuck ton of characters into one or a few scenes and summarizing a fight in the space of a few pages. Comic fights tend to be more like a summarization than a blow-by-blow, a single insanely detailed fight illustration will apparently turn more heads than a sequence of 30. Due to the shorter story and issue length they have to cut it down to the necessary points and let the imagination do the rest of the work. Just compare the length of a completed Manga series to a completed superhero story.

Is this better than the kind of action Murata does? I don't think so. I love Murata and OPM with a burning passion but he's been (deservedly) circlejerked enough for one thread.

I know OPM, Berzerk, Vagabond are the usual suspects but it'd be nice to see some diff. things posted everytime we have this thread

>>4499810
this, although Giraud was good friends w/ Miyazaki to the pt. of naming his daughter Nausicaa

>>4500799
Stop cherry picking from early berserk and go look at the stuff from late conviction arc to the end of the sea god arc. Legitimate stuff that deserves to be in art galleries and museums. Also, if your using that page as an example of "stiff, busy and incoherent" you might be retarded. I'd like to see what your idea of amazing art is.

>>4500853
Explain why its flat and post work you think is dynamic

>>4499781
God I love Jim lees work

>>4501177
>really admire Murata though
HOLD THE PHONE IS MURATA TRAD OR DIGI??

Does he use markers to color? Does he ink in trad? Is this the final destination for ink and marker art? I must know

>>4503754
Chill out. I spent approximately 30 seconds looking for an example page, I haven't read Berserk, just seen images of it.
>Stiff
I have no idea what Guts (I think that's his name) is supposed to be doing in that panel. He's doing some sort of half squat with no real movement implied or shown.
>busy
Intentional or not, his sword blends in completely with the background on first glance.
>incoherent
I've looked at that panel plenty of times now and I still don't know what's going on in it, in any of the panels. I know it would make more sense in context but pages should still be able to stand on their own, especially one with no words apart from sound effects.
>Your image
I don't doubt the art as a whole has gotten a whole lot better, but you're comparing a 2 page splash against a mid-action page, of course it's going to be a lot better. I opened up Berserk online to a few random chapters and pages and the characters still look generally unappealing there are so many derail lines the pages are hard to focus on. See Pic related
>>4501373 is a pretty good illustration, maybe not Murata's best but im not going back to find anything better.

>>4503849
Murata starts with pen and ink then shades in digital.

>>4503862
>I've looked at that panel plenty of times now and I still don't know what's going on in it, in any of the panels. I know it would make more sense in context but pages should still be able to stand on their own, especially one with no words apart from sound effects.

Sorry anon , i havent read Berserk either and everything is easily readable on that panel. Stop pretending to be an idiot or try to make the other guy think he's biased or weeb cuz layman like you cant see shit.
Youre literally blind and shouldnt be on the board if you cant read simple shapes. I can understand whats going on there without glasses.

He's just standing there in braced position. It's a highly detailed artwork, obviously.

>>4503862
>Intentional or not, his sword blends in completely with the background on first glance
It doesn't, I can look at the page from afar and clearly tell that where the sword ends and the blood spatter begins. You might have eye sight problems on top of having problems differentiating details
I have no idea what Guts (I think that's his name) is supposed to be doing in that panel. He's doing some sort of half squat with no real movement implied or shown.
He's pulling the sword out the ground and readying it. Can you not see the speed lines?
>I've looked at that panel plenty of times now and I still don't know what's going on in it, in any of the panels. I know it would make more sense in context but pages should still be able to stand on their own, especially one with no words apart from sound effects.
Your a goddamn brainlet if you cant tell he's pulling the sword out the ground, can you not read the sfx? Are you reading it left to right? The line of action is clear.

the berserk, one punch man, akira and vagabond mangaka are the only examples of manga art that ive seen that can even compare to western artists like greg capullo, jim lee or alex ross. you can put almost every page of their work up on a wall and it would look amazing. you cant really do that with manga art. the focus on incomprehensible speed lines, sound effects, blank backgrounds and smaller pages makes it seem a bit more "cheap" than western artist. thats not to say a lot of western art isnt trash either.

>>4503485
Sure:

Yoshicadu (Tsugumomo)
Boichi (Sun Rock Ken/Dr. Stone)
Shirahama Kamome (Tongari Boshi no Atelier)
Takahashi Kazuki (Yu-Gi-Oh!) (yes, really)
I could go on... desu, a lot of mangaka are very skilled and talented artists. You especially see a lot of quality stuff in monthly manga, but even some weekly guys can put out great stuff. Takahashi’s illustrations for example are phenomenal, his art book was on sale just not too long ago.

>>4504038

>>4504038
>>4504040

>>4503953
You just need to read more manga, you assume everything is Naruto tier, or late Dragonball/DBSuper. I’m sure if I dug around well enough I could easily scour a solid 20 mangaka who have amazing art.

>>4504045

>>4504049

>>4503485
God I absolutely adore the art of Otoyomegatari.

>>4504041
>>4504040
>>4504038
>>4503849
How are these colored? Is it markers, WC, or digi?

>>4503485
Here, have some Fire Punch.

>>4500937
>the average American comics fan is probably 30+ now
You gotta be kidding me. A 30+ old person still into capeshit? I'm not buying it.

post more good comic/manga art please, thanks.

>>4504051
based blatantly pedophilic author

>>4503274
what a joke, they have to cut it down? its easy to say that people are under constraints but hard to admit theyve got no passion. action wise murata is better than all of marvel/dc... how many people read and like opm and how many people read and like superman? bland and corporate vs soulful and skilled BLAM

>>4505358
he's right though. I read somewhere that the average capeshit comic buyer is about 35 years old. Young people don't buy capeshit comics.

I'll try and link a source if I find it

>>4504758
Digital, if I'm not mistaken. There's a video of Takahashi drawing Kaiba and Blue Eyes and he used software to color (I forget which one tho). It looks very cool and organic though, like traditional.

>>4504758
>>4508603
The Murata one is marker tho

>>4506524

>>4508629
South american comic Artists are really good for some reason.

>>4501193
What about Dave?

>>4503485
Innocent

>>4503953
If you ever tried japanese manga pens you would know why the inking looks so scratchy and or very fine and empty of character, the nibs are very hard, scratchy, get stuck on the papers fibers, the g pen doesn't carry much ink and will leave big pools of ink if you apply strong pressure. This doesn't mean you can't make good art with them, Ikegami uses the characteristics of the tools to his advantage.

>>4508703
Innocent is full of literal photos, Kokou no Hito too. The character art is sublime though he's explained that he literally has his assistants pose in costume for reference, not that there's anything wrong with that.

>>4499872
Berserks art is shit man, the only thing Miura is good at is autistically drawing lines and attention to minute detail, which is admittedly better than a lot of mangakas

>>4500799
At this point I just assume it's the "cool" factor. People who can't critically look at art typically decide value on whether they like it, so the grim and violent aesthetic of Bereserk appeals to them. Beyond that, it's clear Miura does put a massive amount of effort into his work, even to a layman, so it translates as skill to most people.

Even if you can draw, you have to know a lot more about art to actually look at it and quantify why it's really not that great. Though of course, people can enjoy what they want.

>>4503754
>deserves to be in art galleries
As an example of how not to do value structure? It's muddy as fuck.

>>4508919
Value structure and page composition is so fucking important but people like >>4503882 and >>4503897 just shit on critique of it by saying they're blind and retarded.

>>4508607
>The Murata one is marker tho
I have a new life goal to obtain - wish me luck bros

>>4508636
Isn't he from spain? I still don't understand how he isn't working in the industry yet

>>4509052
lmao youre delusional, you think your capeshit is good when there is just minimum amount of background, there is literally no space for the characters to exist in. Berserk manga shows an entire world, not just some single pinups and nothing else.

>>4509874
>Berserk manga shows an entire world, not just some single pinups and nothing else.
Berserk is really not that good, anon. Yes, it has lots of detail, but no matter how well you dress a pig, it's still a pig. I'm not a hater, I like Berserk and it has some very cool pages like pic related, and the story is a millions times better than 99% of comic books.

Still, some comic books are way better. Anything by Greg Capullo is just better than Berserk.

>>4508919
>>4509052
i would say his stiff poses and weird faces got a lot better as he went on. he's certainly a lot better at creatures
pic related is an example of how there's good detail but the poses arent dynamic and kind of amateur

>>4509900
>Still, some comic books are way better. Anything by Greg Capullo is just better than Berserk.

I havent seen anything to convince me of this, you seem to have personal preference but you are not explaining it very well.

Greg capullo my ass. Related hentai is better, sorry.

>>4509942
>Greg capullo my ass. Related hentai is better, sorry.
you should have warned us earlier that you are retarded.

Nice stuff

you guys sure spend a lot of time arguing instead of drawing, huh...

>>4509950
all capeshit offers is high contrast that makes simpletons cream their panties. When youre depicting grim world that you want to feel real you have to have nuance. That's why its not just cel-shaded, but has careful hatching and detail. Sure it has less "pop", but that's a style that's more believable, immersive. Not for kids.

>>4509964
It's what the boards for, isn't it?

>>4499929
>artist traces over a real picture and adds a shitload of patterns and crosshatching
>then adds 2 ugly melting potatoes on top
why is it so commong

>>4510762
Because comics have a tight deadline and as it turns out the method doesn't matter, only the result.

>>4504051
i prefer 2009 stylistically desu

>>4509976
you finally post something with readable values god damn, also ironic to talk about "high contrast for simpletons" when >>4509942 is an unreadable mess thats exactly that

Zetman also has pretty good art.

>>4508803
yes, the artist works like all artists do, how shocking
also he's a great visual storyteller. he does really cool tricks with images and ideas, which puts them apart from the usual manga crap

>>4510784
thanks for letting us know you are just capetrash and dont understand anything. Your kids comics have no atmosphere or believable environments, so when mangaka display detailed environments or any nuance you think immediately that it's "unreadable".

>>4503274
god what a visual diarrhea this is

This thread just shows a severe lack of understanding of what a comic is supposed to be. It's not something you're supposed to hang on your fucking wall.

>>4511701
You don't get to decide what comics are supposed to be. Some people get different things out of comics than others, and different authors have different intentions.

>>4511701
This.
>>4511719
Not this.

>>4501193
I mean not sound like a crab but when your panels start acting as literal second to second frames aren't you basically just cramming literal animation into your comic?

>>4501193
I mean not sound like a crab but when your panels start acting as literal second to second frames aren't you basically just cramming literal animation into your comic?
again, not to come off as a crab, just wondering where one would draw the line of distinction

>>4511755
Not this.

>>4509942
why in gods name would you think posting porn would win you an argument

>>4512273
why does it matter whether its porn or not? Hentai is art.

>>4511392
What I mean is, he takes photos of the poses and lines them up in his panels, which he then traces. This is what I mean here >>4510765, you can literally trace and use photos and it's perfectly fine because drawing from imagination is legitimately just a bad meme.
Also I absolutely agree, his storytelling style is very distinct and enjoyable. Not knocking on his work at all.

Even when heavily westernized, manga art still has that sort of charm and appeal that I can't really seem to see in 99% of western comic books

>>4511701
Yeah, at the end of the day, the art is supposed to service the storytelling. Western artists have no fucking idea how to properly layout a good shot and panel it correctly. Some do but don't really get to show it off as much as they'd like. This also puts bad influence on people who are only inspired by capeshit.
In a previous thread, the fact that comic artists are forced to make their pages look like posters in order to make extra money was brought up. This really hurts the medium and the industry as well as fuels idiots like this.>>4511719

>>4512304
Are you stupid or something? None of the characters look remotely asian, so how is it tracing? He copies the angles and such, uses photos to compose, maybe he copies lighting, clothing. But none of that actually means "tracing".

>>4512283
sex is a very generic subject and has been done to death which leaves very little room for experimentation, comparing it to capeshit is just silly and ignorant (willfully or not)

>>4512355
Everything I know about him I learned by watching this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDpn9fdsRbY and reading his manga.
He explicitly says he uses photos of his assistants in costume (https://youtu.be/TDpn9fdsRbY?t=767)) Then uses the pose and clothing, drawing in the characters over that. It's not strictly tracing but he's still doing all the work with photos then stylizing that.

>>4512334
this is literally no different than >>4503274 as other said "a visual diarrhea" except you might have a deeper emotional connection to Jojo
characters but that's it

>>4512364
Pro-tip from the pros: Fucking use photos. Nobody grades you on how good your shit looks FROM IMAGINATION, all they care about is how it looks period. If you're going to draw a comic, take lots and lots and lots of photos. You don't have to put the photos themselves in your work or trace them, but they speed tougher things up (like drapery, complex perspective, filling scenery etc) so that you can deliver the work on time without sacrificing quality.

>>4512346
>the art is supposed to service the storytelling.
No.

You're the idiot here. Some people care about the story and don't really care about the quality of the drawings, and some people just want to stare at the drawing and don't even really read the things the characters say because they don't give a shit about the story. Some authors really care about the story and some use the story as a way to do cool drawings. You morons don't get to decide what comics "are supposed to be", or how they are done.

>>4512441
cringe

>>4512445
cringe

>>4512441
I'm convinced western artists think this exact thing and it's exactly why they don't make good comics. enjoy your industry going under because your entire community can't understand the concept of visual storytelling and how to properly make your art fit its narrative.

>>4512549
I blame the rampant post-modernism in western culture.

>>4512549
The comic industry will go under and it has absolutely nothing to do with that, but the fact that LCS are a dying breed and they aren't supporting their digital markets enough.

>>4512368

That's Fist of the North Star you fucking clown.

You can't even tell the difference between this and Jojo and you think you're in any position to dictate anything in this discussion?

>>4512441

Idiotic opinions like this is why shit like snowflake and safespace were created.

>>4512076
Read Scott McCloud.

>>4512441
This is like saying “I go to watch a film just for the pretty lights and colors and don’t care about the story.” I bet Michael Bay and Zach Snyder are right up your alley then.

>>4512346
Imagine being this biased
>Western artists have no fucking idea how to properly layout a good shot and panel it correctly
>Some do but don't really get to show it off as much as they'd like
Well which is it? There's plenty of western comics that convey great storytelling through its composition. Anyone can cherrypick the hundreds of weebshit manga that does exactly what you criticize western comics for and then some.

>>4509976
>m-muh hatching and detail

>>4512856
Have you ever heard of cinematography you fucking dolt. I can watch a movie for the sole purpose of enjoying the craftsmanship of the sets, the artistic lighting and above all else the masterful work of the camera as much as i can enjoy it for a cool story. I'd even argue all of that is more important in making a great movie then a good story, but if story is all that fucking matters to you go read a fucking book.

Which ties into the other anon's point about comics. It's perfectly acceptable and probably even preferred to only care about the art of a comic book as you are appreciating the most important aspect. In fact the story is only really there to have a reason to loosely tie together the art, so in reality it's the the storytelling that's supposed to service the art. This is all to say that i think you can still have masterful storytelling in comics or movies but when we get down to what's most important, it's definitely not the story.

>>4512821
You have no idea what you're talking about, retard.

>>4513818
I’ve studied more about cinematography than you have, as I actually make comics, unlike you, and you gotta know that shit inside out for storyboards. That said, name of the game is VISUAL STORYTELLING, pretty lights and dynamic camera angles mean fuck all without a good narrative to tie it together. You sound like the sorta dude that would enjoy nuStar Wars and nuStar Trek. Buncha polished turds. How’s JJ Abrams’ mystery boxes working out for you?

Don’t @ me you pretentious retard, for someone who likes to pretend what they’re talking about, you sure know fuck all. How about you try MAKING comics for starters?

>>4513818
I agree that story, as in what's happening in the literal sense, is among the less important aspects of a comic and works of art and entertainment in general, though I personally wouldn't put art as the most important aspect. I think what's most important between theme, characters, artwork and storytelling/cinematography/paneling (same thing just different word depending on medium) varies from person to person, but what's important is that at least one or two of those aspects need to excel for a work to be memorable.
It's not too difficult to name works that do two or even three of those aspects well or exceptionally, usually at the expense of the others. For some examples, ONE's One Punch Man excels in paneling and characters, but the theme is a little muddy and the artwork is obviously very low effort. Murata's redrawing boosts the artwork but loses focus on the paneling, and further muddies the theming, so what's left is nice artwork and good characters but kind of mediocre everything else, and as a result I would say it's a less memorable work. Kokou no Hito for another example has great art, great theming, great storytelling but fairly simple characters and the plot is literally "Super autist climbs mountains and it usually goes badly for anyone who tries to join him" without any real twists or turns. Now think about it... would it have been as well celebrated if the artwork wasn't as good as it was? I'd wager that yeah, totally. A lot of the time the artwork is in excess and really didn't need to have as much effort put into it as it did. It would have had just as much impact, perhaps even moreso, if the author didn't cram every page with realism-reaching details. There's page after page of nearly indecipherable panels at some point because what's literally depicted is just dudes climbing during blizzards, vaguely human figures covered in mountaineering gear on muddy black splotches in a white wash. Simpler art would have benefited that series more.

>>4514355
Watching youtube "video essayists" isn't "study", you faggot.
But I bet it really helped you with layoing panels for your slice of life webcomic, lol
kill yourself retard.

>>4514355
Stop making up shit. I didn't give you any other information then the surface level argument that movies and comics require actually good visual work more then they need good stories. Which was in response to your idiotic comment.
>This is like saying "I go to watch a film just for the pretty lights and colors and don't care about the story"
Implying that there isn't any other reason besides the story to go to a movie, which if that's how you feel you should read a fucking book.

And you know its funny that your calling me pretentious when you unironically started out your response with
>i study cinematography
>i make comics
Like i don't give a fuck. Clearly they either taught you nothing or you were too retarded to pick up the information cause your spouting some real fucking nonsense.

>>4514386
You’re the one here arguing that art is more valid than how the fucking story is told you fucking idiot. Comics aren’t posters. Fuck off.

>>4499909
Maid In Abyss is better than anything classic except super high budget Ghibli films. Miura's more recent artwork for Berserk is far more detailed and ambitious than what he did in the 80s/90s.

Not to mention there's a TON of very generic samey looking stuff from back then, too. Especially the 80s. It's just that you only remember the best from back then.

>>4514355
I feel like you don't actually get what VISUAL STORYTELLING means, see the "VISUAL" part? yea, pretty lights and dynamic camera angles can and very much serve the fuckin story depending on the subject
Obviously you've brought up NuWars and NuTrek the absolute rock bottom of modern blockbusters which I'm not going to defend but it's important to see that these are still just that, blockbusters and despite have unispiri being complete soulless cashgrabs they still got plenty of merits from VISUAL STORYTELLING standpoint in the form of fun and exciting action scenes
I don't even like capeshit all that much but you suck at explaining what's actually wrong about it lol

>>4514390
Art IS more valid, you invalid. If it wasn't there would be no reason to not just READ A FUCKING BOOK. Im not saying you shouldn't have good stories in comics, just that im going to rate a comic with 'great art and a shitty story' higher than a comic with 'shitty art and a great story'.

>>4514390
>>4514411
I'll add. You don't actually like art. You like stories. So the art is meaningless to you without a good story. Which i say, as someone who loves stories, is a shitty way to look at visual mediums cause you're completely disregarding the actual artistic and skillful merit of the work. The point of someone making a comic is to make good works of art along with a story and sure you can appreciate the story no doubt about it but it's the art which is the main course.

>>4514355
>I actually make comics
pyw, let's laugh a little.

>>4514407
Are you following the fucking argument? This fucking spastic, right here >>4512441
>>4511719
argued that the paneling and visual storytelling is irrelevant because some people just wanna look at the drawings. >>4512346
>>4511701
This is what he was replying to. He got butthurt after being shown how mangaka do a better job utilizing their art and framing their pages in service of the narrative, and he moved goalposts to defend pages like >>4499839 that might as well be still illustrations. It’s literally the equivalent to enjoying generic fuck trash films cause they have pretty visuals. Might as well buy a fucking artbook of illustrations if all you’re gonna do is look at pictures. A comic is made with a purpose: to tell a story. A comic with a bad story is a bad comic no matter how pretty the art, period.


>>4514411
You mean like a comic BOOK you fucking imbecile? How about their alternate name? Graphic NOVEL, you illiterate retard. The point of a STORYboard is to tell a STORY using PICTURES. Good STORYboard use those pictures effectively to enhance the STORY. Bad STORYboards disregard this and create s disconnect between STORY and art. Where sure it might be pretty, but it's a fucking mess to read.

>>4514455
>Are you following the fucking argument? This fucking spastic, right here >>4512441
I'm not him retard. Keep up.

>>4514447
Art is the bottom bitch of the multi media relationships. Nobody gives a shit about standalone art, when was the last time you went to a museum?
Art is just a tool to serve storytelling / assets for animation, comics, 3D, games, etc.
Nobody wants to look at pictures without context, art is just a handy way of serving the story.

>>4514460
What makes a good or bad comic isn’t a subjective trait that can’t be qualified just cause you’re illiterate. Fuck off. The core if a comic or manga is the visual STORYtelling. ie, HOW you string together a bunch of pictures to tell a STORY.

>>4514455
You sound a little mad, retard. A good comic book has good art, and it's perfectly fine to use a story as an excuse to make great drawings that flow together beautifully. The end.

>>4514411
>just that im going to rate a comic with 'great art and a shitty story' higher than a comic with 'shitty art and a great story'.
You’d be wrong then, cause the best comics out of Japan have subpar art but competent stories told really well. Best example is Kimetsu no Yaiba. Second best is Mob Psycho.

You should read Scott McCloud before further embarrassing yourself.

>>4499929
That's awful.

>>4514470
> A good comic book has good art
Wrong. I can name several great comic books with outright BAD art.

>>4513937
Keep seething snowflake. Comics are a storytelling medium. Deal with it.

>>4514477
Wrong. You can't.

>>4514485
Yes I can:
Mob Psycho
Gash Bell
One Punch Man
Kimetsu no Yaiba
Cromartie High School
Hunter x Hunter
The Disasterous life of Saiki Kusuo
Early Jojo
Akagi
Kaiji

Want me to keep going?

>>4501218
That's animation, not comics.

>>4501208
"his drawings MOVE despite being still frames. No other artist does this"
This had better be bait...

>>4514507
Put your money where your mouth is and show us.

>>4514494
Shingeki no Kyojin
GTO
...

>>4514494
>One Punch Man
This is the only one I've read, and I only like the Murata one, which has great art. The webcomic is no good as far as I'm concerned.

>>4501263
>death note
>better panelling
Half of it is just dudes blank faced looking straight on from a straight angle.

>>4514510
It's basic year one comic artist stuff for us.

>>4514537
I said show me, not post a pic from a shitty how to book, by one THE worst publications in the industry.

>>4514494
I recently picked up Blacksad because it was so highly recommended and i've stared at almost every page for probably several minutes a piece. It's a comic who's story is irrelevant to judging the comics quality because it's the art that truly matters.
In visual mediums the story is only meant to be a vehicle for great art. That's what a good comic does. If there's a manga or comic with bad art because the artist doesn't care is purposely making it just sufficient enough to tell the story should just learn to write instead of wasting his time and energy being subpar. I see no point making a comic where you are going to purposely make shitty art.

>>4514455
I've realized your just trying to cope with the fact that you're making a comic with shitty art and need to justify it cause your unable to make actually quality work worth admiring.
>>4514461
>Art is the bottom bitch of the multi media relationships. Nobody gives a shit about standalone art
You're really fucking dumb huh. Any skill no matter what it is has merit and is worth admiring. Anything you like you like because in some aspect the person who made it did so with skillful execution. You just can't see that all you really care about is the storytelling and how making a comic with only good storytelling is counter intuitive to the comic medium.

>>4514544
How is a lesson on how to do it not an example?
Also there are definitely worse how-to books.

>>4510765
>>4512304
If you can tell it's traced it's not a good result.

>>4514461
>>4514411
Seems to me in comics the story and art at distinct but one.

>>4514630
What the fuck does this mean.

>>4514633
*story and art are distinct but one

>>4514634
Ah. Well as i've been saying if you're going to make a good story with bad art, you might as well just write a book. While on the other hand a bad story with good art still has merit to exist.

>>4514614
We can tell, because we're familiar with the methods required to produce those results, but the layman wouldn't be able to tell.

>>4514639
>Well as i've been saying if you're going to make a good story with bad art, you might as well just write a book.
Why? Comics read very differently to books. Yes, even if the artwork is weak, comics are still a visual medium while books are not remotely visual.

>>4514639
I agree. A comic with bad art is by definition a bad comic. A bad comic can have good aspects, but we're talking about it as a craft here.

>>4514507
>>4514510
>>4514537
>>4514588

>there is only one way to convey an idea in art and if this artist doesn't use my way then it doesn't count

>>4514671
>Books aren't visual.

>>4514671
Bad art is going to be worse for telling a story as a whole instead of learning to write well.

>>4514698
Okay that's great and all, but what if you don't want to write your story if it means not presenting it in a visual medium?

>>4514455
>Are you following the fucking argument?
yes I am and I'm saying that your NuWars and NuTrek analogy was shit, aside from that I think you're very on point

>>4514704
If your making the conscious choice to present your story in a visual medium it means you value that medium enough to want to use it, so i don't understand why you'd use it poorly. Besides, bad art can hinder a story and even if it didn't, great art is infinitely more capable of conveying that story. With good art you have way more tools, so even from the standpoint that comics are all about the storytelling, bad art is still a disservice to a good story solely because they can't make use of all the cool tricks the visual medium has.

The second half of this thread has literally been:

>Opinion 1: This is how you SUPPOSED to appreciate things and this is the only way
>Opinion 2: That's cool and all but others have different opinions this shit is subjective
>Opinion 1: REEEEEEEE how dare somebody like something I do in such a different way they are idiots!

>>4503274
The coloring is so bad in this

>>4512441
They hated him because he told the truth. Fuck this board is retarded.

>>4514891
>>4512441
It seems like people here are incapable of imagining people doing comics for differing reasons. Their anger towards someone claiming so shows that blatantly. They get so caught up with what THEY like that they fail to realize Art Spiegelman probably created Maus with a very different purpose than a comic someone like Incase or some furry artist would make.

>>4514753
some people can't handle their autism.

>>4512726
what is your argument retard??
>hurrr this is X property you fuckin clown
so what? it still looks like shit, literally on the same level as that marvel poster
biased faggot

>same old apples to oranges argument itt

>>4499781
It's a bit silly to compare the talents from a pool of 3 billion people to japan, isn't it?

>>4519223
Yet japan has an higher percentage of people making comics

>>4519227
That simply means there's a harsher "skim" of talents outside of japan.