/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>3980686
just
draw just
just

Yes, the non-chicken looks better.

>>3980686
Don't sketch on digital. Many many artists sketch on paper and then color it on digital. Digital will always suck, especially for sketching.

The non-chicken genuinely looks better.

>>3980686
Chicken sketch is a meme. Probably the biggest meme followed by "symbol drawing". People who parrot "don't chicken sketch" are those who never watch pro artist streams or live drawing.

>>3980699
>>3980687
this
>>3980706
ngmi bait

I've seen this thread like five times. Loose sketches are fine. You dont need perfect first try lines like KJG but that method is fine as well. If your lines look like the left in OP you suck, draw more. A big part of line confidence is competence.
pic rel is loose. OP is cancer and anyone who defends it is ngmi in denial.

i think people have taken chicken scratching to mean "linework that isn't a perfectly clean vector" when it means making tiny little pieces of a line inch by inch until you have a full line. drawing a curve in three parts isn't chicken scratch, drawing over a bad line isn't chicken scratch, going over an ellipse a few times isn't chicken scratch

A good drawing depends on your brain, not your hand.

A realistic chicken-scratched drawing will look better than a well-polished wonky anime OC.

That being said, chicken-scratch demonstrates little affinity with the tool, so even if you draw "perfectly" with it, you are probably very inefficient and should work on your motor skills. The time saved will pay off in productivity, which will allow you to hone your skill more.

>>3980686
>chicken
this is why you should be vegan and avoid chicken

>>3980686
Chicken scratch is ok, but when you're trying to draw a particular texture, like water maybe, it's going to throw off the effect of smoothness. Otoh, it'll enhance the texture of something like fur

Lots of artists sketch chicken scratch and then clean it up once they have the forms figured out

>>3980686
nobody giving you a proper answer cause they do it aswell, good job /ic/


>>> depending on the length of the line on the canvas you will use:
> fingers
> wrist
> elbow
> whole arm
> whole arm and body movement (like when people do graffiti)

>>> depending on how long and the position of the line on the canvas, you will need to rotate it so your stroke is more natural

>>> use C S I lines so the lines have more flow

>>> confident slightly wrong line > chicken scratch


everyone here saying scratch is fine ==> ngmi

>>3980786
but ilya draws chicken scratch and he made it

>>3980686
get the plugin lazy nezumi pro

>>3980686
It doesn't matter as long as you go over it later.

>>3980686
Just practice lineart with pen in real life. Over time you will get better.

>>3980796
ilya is a hack

You can still draw fast while drawing slow and making confident marks. Slow down and think about the line you want to make, then follow it with your hand. I think inking with a brush really helped me out on this part. Find a speed that's slow enough for you to think and make good marks but not slow enough to let the paper wobble your pen into unruly lines. From there you can always go faster after enough practice.

>>3980686
chicken scratchs are ok if you're drawing fur

>>3980725
>ngmi bait
he's got a point though. not just "chicken scratch", popular meme buzzwords with zero context are misused all the time.

examine the following scenario:

>/beg/ sees your pic rel
>he doesn't know what he's talking about
>he thinks: "hmmm, messy line work, i see overlaps and tangents everywhere"
>he remembers that buzzword he's heard a couple times
>it's all coming together now
>this is surely it
>his conclusion: "ew, chicken scratch"

seen it happen a million fucking times. point is, it's better to educate people on certain concepts and explain the meaning of certain vague terms than to just vapidly spout them out like a goddamn retard.

>>3980758
looks like shit

>>3980706
ruan jia doesnt doest chicken scratch you autist

>>3980686
I'm in the same boat OP. Every time I try to do the right it ends up misplaced or some shit.

>>3980686
doesn´t matter OP, you just have to think in that when:
1.- you are doing animation. chicken lines can be no worth because of the workflow of animators, but is not a law
2.- you are doing commissions drawings and need to share the sketch or you give sketches for money. in wich case the chicken lines are not worth in constrast with clean lines that appeal more in the sketch and is more easy to people to read the image.
If you are not going to share the sketches with anyone then dont worry about that.

Also is a matter of time, not doing chicken lines reduce the time of drawing if your goal is going for fast production.

>>3981034
Epic!
Care to substantiate your clear superiority by posting any work of yours with more graphic appeal than this?

>>3981118
not him but in both pics the lines are fine, the colors are truly shit

>>3981123
Why? I don't think you understand the difference between not liking something and it being bad, but
if you want to post your own solid color concepts, go ahead.

>>3980686
haha tiddy

>>3981118
this isn't chicken scratch at all, its loose lines

>>3980758
>>3981034
it does look like shit tho, it may be your preference
the drawing kinda gets away with it cause it gives a trippy effect that suits the theme
if the artist that did this used that on every single piece he did that would be awful

>Care to substantiate your clear superiority by posting any work of yours with more graphic appeal than this?
so pathetic to go defensive over some random art you didn't even draw

>>3981118
thats not even your work

>>3981228
yeah, scratchy lines work for these pieces because the tone is kind of odd and goofy - just like the lines

it's the same thing as using a painterly brush to simulate old masters or using a crayon to simulate a children's book quality. you can make anything work if it matches your tone

>>3981036
how stupid do you feel now, brainless jiafag? >>3976138

>>3980686
Chicken scratches come generally when you don't know what the hell you are doing. You go bit by bit, line by line to something that looks like... something. It is pure symbol drawing.
For example, when you know your anatomy and have to draw a leg, you know what muscle connects to what bone. You say to yourself quickly "This go here and this go there". You know where you have to go.

When you don't understand how things work you hesitate, you don't know what to do, you try things a lot but it never looks right, you start to feel bad and rage.
Chicken scratch is like driving to a specific location in a town you don't know, stopping every minute to check if you are going into the right direction.

>>3981235
of course it isn't you retard it's tkmiz, look at the fucking filenames in the pics he posted they're clearly downloaded from 4chan

>>3981464

As I said, only people who never see experts' workflow would fall for this "chicken sketch" meme. Or they intentionally repeat this to sabotage newbies' progress (it's 4chan after all.)

>>3980686
>giving a fuck what people here think

Spotted your mistake OP

>>3981235
So cadmium red and yellow look better than a harmonic palette?

Glad to know blind people have become so integrated into our society they can give opinions on images now.

Now let's post something else entirely.

>>3980686
Yes.
Go back to /beg/.
Practice drawing straight/curved lines.
Watch the video by the chink and do the exercise.

Just chicken scratch the ever loving fuck out of everything then trace it on a vector layer with like 3 stabilizers going later.

>>3981029
>overlaps and tangents everywhere
those are probably the main culprits to any bad drawing, those + proportion and perspective. chicken scratch looks bad with a bad drawing, but chicken scratch is forgivable, sometimes even appealing, if your drawing is solid and refined. storyboard artists draw fast and messy, but they have enough drawing knowledge to make their panels believable and clear. of course solid linework will make your drawing look cleaner, but if it's fundamentally a bad drawing, then no amount of refinement will make it any more clearer or less confusing without changing the actual drawing itself. it's best to work on capturing form in a solid line to improve your drawing ability because it increases your confidence, but when it comes to your own drawing style, the only things that matter are a solid understanding of the fundies and the techniques that suit your taste/intention best.

>>3980686
Chicken scratch will become a problem at one point so you might as well get onto fixing it.

>>3980786
Do I need to start lifting to get superior muscle control?

All I can draw well are haystacks.

>>3980758
I thought my "construction" was bad

>>3983408
Stop trashtalking the tkmiz, you poopoo head an/or face.

>>3981130
>>3981118
>>3980758
Anon this isn't chicken scratching only a sketchy art style.
Tkmiz doesn't repeatedly connect lines like >>3980686
He is actually the opposite.

>>3983491
Good point, but isn't the jaggedness of it equally distracting to clueless people?
Just look at these people who think those are badly executed drawings.

Chicken scratch is basicly when /begs/ make 20 small short stubby lines one at a time until they get a curve or a shape, when you could just use one, two or 3 to describe a contour. It happens when you still try to draw with small wrist movements like you're writing, not longer strokes with more wrist movement or using your shoulder. It also shows that you can't even carefully lead a line in one continuous motion even if slowly.

AKA it shows you have no idea what you're doing and barely know how to use your pencil to draw. Its not okay, its not having a sketchy art style, its drawing like a child because you're on that level.

I don't come on to /ic/ often but thought I'd throw in my two cents. So I did the atelier shit and we never really used the term "chicken scratch". If a line was all scratchy in a weird way, we'd just tell them to clean it up, it wasn't a big deal. There was no "one true way" to draw something. Nobody cared how you held your pencil or charcoal, what mattered is what the stuff looks like on the page. If you make a shaky line, just clean it up and it's fine. Not every line needs to be razor sharp, especially in the beginning of a drawing. Very sharp lines are much more difficult to correct than ones with a bit of softness to them, and because we'd spend forever just correcting and correcting, we could never really do "final" line work, it was all made with the mindset "well maybe I'll have to change this later if I find it to be incorrect".

Where I studied everyone had their own approach to doing things. People generally converged on a similar way of working that was efficient so the variation wasn't huge but you could notice differences. For example my way was very much inspired by painting techniques of painting a big shape, then cutting into it with the surrounding shapes, so I considered the charcoal and eraser to be equal tools to draw with, rather than one being for drawing and the other removing stuff. So when I'd draw a line, I'd often draw a lot of soft and light lines over one another and it created this slightly soft line. I'd then take my eraser and cut into that line, making it narrow and tight. This let me be very big and gestural with the lines I place down, then be surgical with my eraser to make it accurate and tight. I find it great for when you want to leave your drawing open to be easily corrected but I know other people who hate that approach because it's less calligraphic. Linked a quick digital sketch where I tried to do this in photoshop, maybe it shows the idea.

I'll try to hang around for a bit and see if anyone has any replies.

>>3983611
Eh. You're dealing with a forum on a site that is the clubhouse for moderate to severe autism, they don't want to hear "try it", they want a step by step, detailed instruction book to becoming the anime social media cool person star they think they're entitled to be, or they'll stand in the corner and punch themselves in the head. Or it's just lazy 4chan anons who want free child porn.

You kind of have to pick and choose who you talk to, because legit advice is NOT being looked for here. Tell them the super secret art techniques that will make them a famous manga artist overnight with no effort they think exist, or don't bother.

>>3983618
Maybe you're right. I got away from all art communities for like 4 years when I was studying so coming back I don't really know where to go. Everyone is so weird about everything wherever I go, I end up feeling kind of alienated.

>>3980686
Chicken Scratch isn't a problem, your chicken scratch looks like shit

>>3983611
reviewbrah?

>>3983611
You don't seem to understand why everyone is complaining.
It's not that you need to do perfect smooth sharp lines every time you touch the paper, you can do a sketch as messy as you want and then refine it (or not).

The problem is when you do ugly scratchy lines as a final product because your line is just not confident or there is a lack of skill, and if that wasn't enough you post scratchy stuff around trying to find validation and an excuse to be lazy


If it is a stylistic choice or is a quick 1min drawing it's totally reasonable to not clean up.

>>3980686
Even if you're just sketching, there's a proper way to go about it to make it look better. The "sketchy" look just means "I know what I want to draw but it just took an extra pass or two". Having a million scratches and breaks especially for basic forms just gives off a feel of not having confidence or a steady hand.

>>3980796
No, but seriously, who is Ilya?

>>3980796
You aren't Ilya

Why they're called chicken scratch again? I've never saw a single chicken making scratch for a line.

>>3980686
Warm up exercises, synchronize your eyes and arms (not hands) with coordinating exercises and lift weights

>Every time I attempt to draw a single line it comes out like garbage.
Exactly. You've never drawn a simple line before so you have no dexterity.

Chickens-scratching is when you throw down fifty lines when just one will do. Afterwards, you either need to erase most of them, or just pray that the viewer sees what you see.

>>3980758
>>3981118
Wait, are these really drawn by a professional artist as finished works? Looks horrible to my eyes. Is this that Heta-Uma art that are intentionally drawn badly?

>make tutorial saying short strokes from the wrist are for beginners and strokes from the shoulder are for pros
>get shit on by salty begs
https://twitter.com/MangaMaterials

>>3985534
Made me think talent is actually the ability to realize you're shit and try to improve by listening to genuine pros.

>>3985534
This "draw from the shoulder" shit is just silly. It depends on the kind of line you want to make. Sometimes working from the shoulder is appropriate, sometimes not. I'll give you an example, Philip de László used a maulstick for most of his work, so he basically painted all his paintings from the wrist. Is he a noob? Do his paintings lack confidence, gesture or some other vague quality you people seem obsessed with? Repin also used a maulstick for most of his paintings, I guess he was a noob too. And don't act like "uh they were super pro so it's okay when they do it". We have drawing and painting manuals from the 17-1800's where several of them suggest beginners use maulsticks when drawing. This lack of nuance on the subject of drawing is just retarded.

I'll give you guys some advice, modern artists are kind of bad and the way they'll try to sell their drawing course to smooth brains is to make it look very "scientific". This lets them excuse their bad drawings and push out dumb advice like the shit Peter Han comes up with. Look at sources from the 17-1800's if you really want to learn how to draw and paint.

>>3981029
I get your point, but it's useless to try to explain some things to /ic/ autists. No matter how good and nuanced the advice, some idiots here will always distort it in some retarded way.
Look at how they distort basic shit like "symbol drawing".

This is because this board is genuinely full of Dunning Kruegers that are very eager to larp as teachers before even knowing anything about the subjects they are discussing.

>>3985405
>Looks horrible to my eyes.
That's cause you're not seeing the big picture.
Yes, those are purposefully drawn to look rought and unsteady, while keeping readability to some extent.

>>3985405
The first one is distorted because they are drunk.
You know how when you drink 2 much the whole world starts to spin? You can literally see that effect in that drawing.
The artist that drew that is very good.

>>3980686
Because it makes your sketches and lineart seem more confident, usually fucking with the pen pressure and stability improves your lines. A lot of beginner artists use chicken scratch because they’re unconfident in their sketching that’s why chicken scratch is mainly associated with being amateur. It’s not an insult, it’s just the way it is. Before moving on to your main piece work on practice sketches and line art to get yourself comfortable, thumbnail sketches always seem to do the job for me. It gives your hand a good idea of the tool, the tools weight, and size. So your hand can quickly adapt to it

>>3985703
I forgot to mention, chicken scratch can look good depending on how you incorporate it into your sketch. It isn’t a bad concept at all if you know how to use it, it could also give your piece more life

>itt: anons that can't differentiate between sketchy and chicken scratches
Learn to rely less on your wrist and fingers exclusively and yes, be CONFIDENT, don't hesitate, the more you shit out lines that look like shit the sooner you'll draw lines that don't look like shit.

>>3985707
Chicken scratch never looks good because only complete /begs/ do it. You're thinking about hatching.

>>3985707
Chicken scratch never looks good because only complete /begs/ do it. You're thinking about hatching.

>>3983640
this is why i just focus on drawing and talking to my 1 art friend
people are fucking dumb about shit

>>3985707
>chicken scratch can look good
I don't believe you. Post example please

>>3985542
post your work tardo

>>3983611
>>3983640
For what it’s worth, I liked what you had to say, and I enjoy seeing posts that seem well thought out. I’ve been trying to work on making better linework myself so seeing people delve a little deeper than “chicken scratch bad” is nice to see. If I wanted to try your technique in digital, would it be like using a low opacity round brush and refining it with the eraser?

What's called chicken scratch is good for drawing a rough draft. You can have literally a rough idea of what you're going to draw before inking. On a good rough draft, you can draw confident lines.

>>3986277
I did, I posted the portrait drawing.
>>3986277
There are tons of different ways to do it. I think having some opacity, either through pen pressure or by changing it bit by bit would be a good idea. You want your initial marks to feel light and easy to to work with rather than needlessly heavy so something like opacity or flow would help with that. I think a useful brush for this would be a normal hard round with 25% spacing and with both flow and opacity turned on. Then you can make light marks that aren't super sharp and difficult to work with. I often just have one color for my drawing and then at the same time, select the background color. This lets me switch back and forth with X in photoshop and I don't have to change the tool I'm using.

>>3986229
I made this quick little sketch for you. You can have chicken scratchy marks if you use them well. It can be a way to have the lines feel a bit more light and easy to work with. It's like noise in a painting, it can be used to provide a bit of ambiguity that makes it much easier to correct and change the image in its big impression. I would compare it to the painter Antonio Mancini, he avoids solidifying his painting and keeps it vibrating and it lets him change and adjust the big impression easily and quickly. It also helps avoid bias because the shapes don't trick your mind, they remain more abstract and you have less of an investment in preserving them, letting you correct it without much heartache.

>>3986427
Yeah sounds good. It can also be worked with to be part of the final image rather than trying to "ink" something in a comic book style.

>>3985742
Yeah I do basically that too.

Anyway. I'm going to bed. I'll check the thread in the morning.

>>3986443
looks like ass

>>3986445
lol. ok.

>>3986443
It would look much better if you didn’t chicken scratch

every fucking time

>>3986452
i don't know why /ic/ is in such a contrarian autism mode about chicken scratching, it's a clearly defined, obvious fucking thing that beginners do

>>3986451
I guess I'd just say I disagree. I find that drawings can be made in several different ways to emphasise different qualities and provide different ways to approach a subject. A drawing's quality isn't measured by how pretty the line individual line is but rather the overall effect, that's why I brought up Mancini in the post. Mancini's brushwork is just a mess however the quality of his paintings come from their big effect, that's why Sargent called him the greatest living painter. Take a look at Repin's rough and noisy drawings. Are they bad because they're all scratchy. Just because Repin's drawings don't look like Bargue's drawings doesn't mean one is inherently better than the other just because it's "clean". They seek to do different things with the medium.

>>3986463
If you’re goal is to make her made of fur or hairthen sure it looks pretty good

>>3986463
You are missing the point, its ok to have something as a style a beginner though is chicken scratching because he cant draw smooth lines . Once he becomes pro he can do whatever he wants hell he can pull a Picasso move if he wants to

>>3986443
still not chicken scratching
all those short lines have a flow to them and don't fly outside of the rhythm of the lines they're creating

>>3986476
I suppose we just define chicken scratches somewhat differently.
The reason I think this is important to discuss is because I think a lot of people struggle with their drawings by thinking of them as a kind of calligraphy. They lock up their lines and don't leave them free and open to change. This isn't helped by people spreading this meme that you for some strange reason should only draw in pen, so the only way to ever make a pretty drawing is by somehow getting the final line-work pretty from the start. This is the kind of stuff people like Peter Han spread and I suspect it has caused a lot of issues with a lot of aspiring artists. So I'd prefer to see the "chicken scratch" meme to be more nuanced and that the absolute opposite approach isn't recommended because it likewise has issues associated with it.

>>3980686
1. Chicken scratching is not the same as loose sketching.
2. Chicken scratching is not the same as broken lines.
3. Bad linework is a reflection of uncertainty. You should make multiple sketches on top of one another, refining each pass until the vision becomes clear.
4. Chicken scratching isn't just a line quality issue, it is a design issue. It well negatively impact the drawing at the design phase, something people like >>>3985652 do not understand.

>>3986491
I think another reason the pen drawing meme spread is the popularity of manga and comics, where there is generally a bigger focus on clean, tight lines, as well as artists like Kim Jung Gi banging out figures from imagination with nothing but a brush pen. I don’t really follow Peter Han so that’s where I got my initial idea of only drawing with a pen from.

>>3980706
>Probably the biggest meme followed by "symbol drawing".
Stopped reading right there. You have absolutely no idea what your talking about if you think symbol drawing is not a actual obstacle.

>>3980686
its okay to chicken scratch but try your hardest to line up your strokes so it doesn't make shit look fuzzy and messy
or learn to not chicken scratch and have extra clean sketches, whichever suits you

>>3980686
You tell me, pal.

Sometimes I think /ic/ is fully aware they're replying to a troll thread but do it anyway because there's nothing better to do

>>3989473
There is something better to do.

>>3980750
this. feel free to ignore everything else in this thread

>Retards defending chicken scratch
>Post examples
>Not even chicken scratch
Oh boy why am i not surprised

>>3980686
are you capable of making smooth clean lines? if you can do that and you prefer the look of chickenscratch then do chickenscratch

>>3981029
Every argument about this thing on this board ends up with no true scotsman fallacies, it's only chickenscratch if the drawing isn't made by a known artist or it's clearly shit. There are lots of messy sketches like pic related but this is OK because it's Frank Thomas and he's doing this to find a gesture. If I posted my loose gestural sketches that I clean up afterwards or even pic related to my name, everyone would say I'm chickenscratching and you know it.

The problem with this thing is that when a beginner does it it's a sign of poor commitment and confidence, that's why you tell people to stop and make long confident strokes instead.

>>3989214
/ic/ has no fucking idea of what symbol drawing is, they call anything that doesn't look good symbol drawing. Symbol drawing is when you are literally drawing symbols, like a kid drawing a house. It means there's a gigantic disconnect between what you see and what you're drawing which is rarely the case on /ic/ even with beginners, everyone is trying to at least draw basic loomis shit

>>3989584
say what you want but that pic is ugleeeh as fuck

>>3980686
Yes its bad /thread

>>3989584
It's not a true scotsman fallacy. Your example is straight up not chicken scratching. It's long loose lines repeated several times over to feel out things which is completely fine. Literally almost all figure drawing teachers do this so you're not really making any new revelations here. Chicken scratching are very short petted lines painstakingly & sloppily connected together to make longer lines.
I know there might be 0.00000001% exceptions out there of pros that legitimately use actual chicken scratching, but honestly they're probably not even in the kind of field that most artists here are pursuing.

>>3989584
>Every argument about this thing on this board ends up with no true scotsman fallacies

it only seems that way because you can't fucking tell when something is actual chickenscratch and when something has multiple lines that all have a purpose.

please stop posting, you are only embarrassing yourself.

>>3989632
>and when something has multiple lines that all have a purpose.
yeah all those lines on Captain Hook's face are there because he's a wrinkly 97 year old man. I wonder why they removed all these essential lines during cleanup...