/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

Welcome to actually working on producing things of objective creative value as opposed to dabbling with technological abstractions of whatever sort

>>3929024
>using programming to make incredible things that improve the world 10000x over
>drawing big titty anime girls that are good for a wank

wat

>>3929027
Improve the world by doing fucking what lmao
Software for weapons? For the purposes of spying on people? Needless "smarthome" faggotry? Delegating who gets turned into gore by a car to a computer?

Lol

>>3929032
says person using computer to do most everything, including look at art

besides the point, though. why do i learn nothing from doing studies? doesn't feel like it helps me improve

>>3929036
You don't sound like much of an artist

I wouldn't know, I've never learned anything at all

>>3929038
i very much like art. i just recognize that theres a difference between entertainment/life enjoyment, and things that lessen the burdens in life

40mins-1hr is a paltry span of time to be using as a gauge btw

>>3929032
Healthcare application development is hot near me right now.

I suspect you are either underaged or retarded to have a tin foil hat on right now over the mention of code.

>>3929032
>Delegating who gets turned into gore by a car to a computer?
what did he mean by this

>>3929046
oh boy because there's just such immense value in providing life support to everyone and their dog well past anything resembling happy and healthy years amirite

>>3929048
stop hijacking my thread with this retarded anti-tech bullshit

talk about why art is hard and why i suck at it so much

>>3929048
God i hope you never leave your moms basement so the world doesn't have to experience you for being this retarded

>>3929020
bump bump scrubs

I've been learning Japanese for 3 years.
About 2 weeks ago I took a mock exam and scored enough to (barely) pass the highest proficiency level, JLPT N1.

The catch is I don't feel any more confident now than I felt 1, even 2 years ago. I'm still a clueless gaijin guessing at oogabooga speech and Chinese scribbles, the difference is I can subconsciously understand more at the end of each sentence.

The point of this little report is talking about skill perception. I think what helped me with Japanese was having specific goals: to learn X thousand words; to go through 1 grammar book, to watch this anime without subtitles.
When it comes to art, there is just this amorphous blob of "learning how to draw", and even when the blob is smaller, "learning anatomy" is still foggy as shit.

And here I am - feeling like I'm lost, but knowing more Japanese than some people who go to university to learn the language, all on my own.

Art is 99% output, though, so unlike language learning you can't just watch a movie and feel accomplished. You have to produce the movie yourself, and production is where most people falter in language studies. I myself can write a bit of broken Japonski, but most people on or above my level don't even dare doing it.

Bunch of random thoughts, hope they give someone some insight.

>>3929081
Yeah no this is some good shit, thanks for the post

I think my biggest problem is that my output was low. I think with other skills, you can kind of consume knowledge about the subject just by reading and watching, and then come to some sort of understanding, without completely "acting out" those new pieces of information. But with art, that kind of "passive learning" didn't work. I think I needed much more active learning and just fucking DRAWING examples from art books, etc. instead of trying to consume more information by reading or watching.

And I guess in terms of goals: what I've been trying to do is to be able to draw sexy anime girls (in b&w manga style) completely from imagination. Still not specific enough?

>>3929087
>I think with other skills, you can kind of consume knowledge about the subject just by reading and watching

not very common actually. i'm really not sure where you're getting this... you learn most skills by doing. even with something as abstract and analytical as math, you don't just read the theory and then ace the test, there's a period of drilling involved. and then when you get to less analytical skills, it gets more and more entrenched in intuitive knowledge and muscle memory

>>3929087
With drawing, mileage is everything. Output is everything. The lower your skill level, quantity>quality. As you improve the reverse becomes true. You will hate your work for a long time. That's okay; it's normal.

>>3929087
another anon here

trace. not for doing actual work, that's like copy pasting somebody else's code and calling it yours. but tracing for the task of practicing is on the same level of watching a movie in a foreign language or watching a video on coding and repeating what you see. the reason why so many ppl have problem with learning to draw is because tracing, as opposite to watching videos on coding or some other shit for learning, has a stigma. so no beg's actually do it

and this bad stigma is from those which post traced works as being their own. again, you dont post a code you copied while watching a video, so why would you post your traces

dont listen to the crabs telling you, you will learn nothing. if you want to learn to action poses, trace some japanese books with action poses, if you want to learn the body from different angles, trace the hyper angle books, if you want to learn to draw the characters from a show, search for the artbook of that show and trace the whole book. the more I trace I find myself more confident in what I draw, and usually when theres something I feel like a beg at, its because I had not traced that subject yet

>>3929095
why would you trace if you can just draw in proportion by eye? if you can't, why wouldn't you spend time practicing that instead? it's such a good return on investment to just learn a couple of measuring and triangulation techniques, put them into practice for a while, and never again worry about getting the wrong proportions when studying

>>3929027
that's pretty narrow-minded of you to assume that everyone draws shitty tumblr beg doodles like you

>>3929081
hey dude what would you recommend for learning a lot of grammar asap?

>>3929100
let's be honest anon, your time would have been better spent coding than "doing art"

>>3929020
Programming is a very "hard" skillset with very clear cut goals and very tangible goalposts.
Can I get this loop to increment? Can I get this variable to change based on input? Did I label all of my classes properly? etc etc
What kind of goals do you have with art? Can I draw this arm? Can I draw this in perspective? These get tricky. If the loop increments it fucking increments, but if you draw the arm then that's like 10000 things right there. Like with one arm you have to worry about:
-Line weight
-Line shakiness
-Proper proportions
-Proper musculature
-Proper perspective
-Including only necessary details
-Placing shading accurately
-Making your shading look nice
-Drawing the arm within your style
and so on and so forth. Sure the question of "does the loop increment" can be changed into "does the loop increment efficiently" but whether or not it's efficient is not inherent to the task itself
>>3929095
Quick question about tracing. I have no artists I can name off the top of my head that I look up to and don't feel like printing out art just to go trace it. How do I fix these problems?
>>3929103
No it wouldn't. Nobody here is ever going to work on any kind of tech project with any kind of significant weight unless they were already leaning HARD into compsci and even then it's a fucking gamble. Writing lines for the latest tinder knockoff is no more useful to the earth than drawing RogueXGambit smut

>>3929103
Good, good.. we indeed need ever more machine code to perpetuate the ceaseless rape and exploitation of every component of the earth possible.

Far preferable to something as economically insignificant as personal artistic fulfillment and expression!

>>3929108
>Quick question about tracing. I have no artists I can name off the top of my head that I look up to and don't feel like printing out art just to go trace it. How do I fix these problems?
you could trace digitally without printing anything out. what got you into art if there's no art that you'd like to study, or look up to?

>Writing lines for the latest tinder knockoff is no more useful to the earth than drawing RogueXGambit smut
debatable

>>3929103
hmm I'm honest though, nope your weak bait is shit and you shouldn't address real artists so casually :)

>>3929115
I got into art from seeing a bunch of shit and getting crazy inspired, but I can't ever really remember any particular ones I'd like to emulate. I remember a few of the artists that I did get inspired by but those few have styles I'm not interested in touching
>you could trace digitally
Don't have a tablet, and especially not one with a screen.
I'm thinking an ez solution for now is just pulling images up on my laptop screen, jacking the brightness way up, and using a softer pencil or some vine charcoal

we're all talking about programming and shit, man kmagine if you ended up loving some kind of "craftsman trade".
I'm talking shit like wood and stone carving, stuff that's practically impossible to learn without an apprenticeship, all techniques locked behind closed doors, and is extremely difficult to earn a buck from.

We've got it bad as artists, but not quite as bad as some others

>>3929027
>using programming to make incredible things that improve the world 10000x over
Using programming to create something like that is as hard as art, you dumb webshit.

>implying he is any good at programming
lmao

>>3929118
>you shouldn't address real artists so casually :)
this should be the /ic/ slogan kek

>>3929108
>Quick question about tracing. I have no artists I can name off the top of my head that I look up to and don't feel like printing out art just to go trace it. How do I fix these problems?
find some characters you want to draw fanart of, come up with a story, start drawing something, and you will see what you are lacking
you need a printer and lightbox if traditional, or the jpgs if digital

>>3929096
tell me anon, which from those 2 artists measure everything and are afraid of breaking proportions for compositions, expression etc
>the atelier teacher?
>the industry professional?
you can't focus on the details 100% if you have to stop every 2 lines to make sure your measurements are ok. you dont have to measure everything you draw to know how to keep proportions, and tracing is faster. in the time it took you to measure and draw 10 stuff, I could trace 20. repeat that for 1 year and I got more millage than you

>>3929047
He's refering to the deaths caused by self driving cars

>>3929133
ic should be 100% casual talk if we are to go by that

you might need a little more practice with measuring, anon. you seem to think of it as this rigid atelier idea of breaking out knitting needles and shit. the point is that with a trained eye, you can tell where you're off. you never train your eye when you trace. you speak of being afraid to break proportions, and i would argue that it's the tracer who's afraid to break proportions.

eyeballing proportions with a trained eye: oh i screwed up here, it reveals a mistake that i avoid in the future
tracing: i need a guide to see exactly where each line goes, with no room for mistakes

tell me, who is more afraid?

>in the time it took you to measure and draw 10 stuff, I could trace 20. repeat that for 1 year and I got more millage than you
are we competing based on the amount of work we produce or what we learn from the process? if mileage is as simple as putting pen to paper, then i can draw twenty times amount of line in the time it takes for you to trace it.

>>3929143
meant for >>3929135
forgot to quote it :P

>>3929091
Language learning and 99% of what we learn in school up until highschool is pure input, no wonder young adults have no clue on how to learn skills on their own; being fed information is the norm for most, thus the sheer amount of tutorials and people making their living off of teaching. But every "genius" or person out of the curve is generally someone with the right intuition to go there and make a thousand mistakes before succeeding. We're too afraid to fail and our attempts have to look decent even when they're not the final product.
Might be an ego problem, but ultimately I think it stems from the learning system.

>>3929095
Good shit. I was surprised to find out my hands improved a lot after I traced a couple ones for a more precise project where I couldn't fuck it up.

>>3929108
You sound like me, pretty uncanny.
Except for the coding part, I wish I could code, always trying to devise the next cool app to make my life easier and not earn a penny cause zoomers just want minimalistic headbanging emoji messengers.

>>3929102
Taekim if you're a beginner;
Kanzen Master for N2 and above (books directed at JLPT);
The Dictionary of Japanese Grammar (and its Anki deck).

There's also the Nihongo no Mori videos on YouTube, from beginner to N1, you might enjoy those better.

For the full guide, knock yourself out at >>>/int/djt
Pic related, my own wonky-ass perspective drawing!

>>3929020
anything scientific seems a ton more difficult than art to me
I'm a retard and got decent at art

>>3929020
Stop "just drawing" like the retards suggest here and start learning to draw and maybe all the hours you invested in it wouldn't feel useless.

>>3929027
HAHAHAHAHAHA

>>3929020
Yes.
As someone who learned many skills from sports, SCI fields to music, I can confidently say that drawing(correctly) is one if not the hardest skill there is.

>>3929087
>you can kind of consume knowledge about the subject just by reading and watching, and then come to some sort of understanding, without completely "acting out" those new pieces of information. But with art, that kind of "passive learning" didn't work. I think I needed much more active learning and just fucking DRAWING examples from art books, etc. instead of trying to consume more information by reading or watching.
It's absolutely HUGE for you to understand this and you're going to make a lot of progress if you put it into practice.
In fact, studies show that humans retain only X% from what they learn by: 10% from reading/20% audio-visual/50% demonstration/70% practicing/90% using it directly

So actually draw and use every new infos you get from books/videos/tutorials in your works and you're gonna win so much that you will be tired of winning.

>>3929081
God, fuck off, QuizMaster, get the hell off the internet already. No wonder you're not confident.

>>3929931
cringe loser, mary has no interest in drawing

>>3929944
Of course you would know, freak.

sorry to everyone in this board/thread there's a lot of dumb retards on jp

>>3929953
least i know how to link across a board retard

>>3929956
Fair enough. Never done it before since I've been on 4chan because I stuck to one board.

>>3929032

Why are you here if you hate technology so much? Go live in a cave.

>>3929132
>something that requires no physical conditioning vs. something that does
>harder than
Yeah, gotta call some bullshit on that.

>>3931003
Drawing requires physical conditioning?

The memearrow labyrinth mixed with autism at every turn has lost me.

>>3929032
>sent from a computer

You're not actually studying in the way you draw right now. Without studying as you noticed, you will not improve. But study what? And how?

It is still possible to improve quickly with drawing. Allow me to share what I know from studying people who did improve quickly who were famous for it that I notice most other people do not do. You cannot just simply draw for the sake of drawing. Think of it this way. To draw a picture at the level of skill you desire there are smaller skills and bits of understanding categorized into things like perspective, etc, pieces of the puzzle to put together. When you draw something, you are seeing a physical representation of what is missing from that skill and understanding being complete to the level you want to draw. Its a representation of what you must learn.

As such you can make an improvement plan from this. Learn the factors that make up the skill. Look at what subskills the professionals value and use to make their art. In order to improve in art, you must be reflecting between each drawing why the drawing sucks or try to understand what you're not understanding. Then you patch up these holes with studying academic sources and experimenting with drawing these aspects that are missing until they're second nature. That fills the void in what is missing in your work. Importantly you want to pick the most basic of these things that you cannot do as that is the best starting point to work on. Getting caught up in the proper use of layers in a digital art program when you're having trouble setting perspective correctly isn't the right way to go about things. However you also do not want to get caught up in some super isolated component skill that does not involve actual drawing either. If you must do that, include it with a drawing it will be applied to even if the drawing is bad. It will at least have that new

Recording yourself drawing also helps. That way if you strike gold you can see what you did right.

>>3929020
You arent understanding the fundamental differences in skillsets.

Programming - you know how to use and operate a computer. You know how to type. You know how to manipulate a mouse. You know how to read and understand procedural and mathematical operations of programming languages. You understand the syntax and jargon after years of studying and using it. This all allows you to jump in and learn instantly and technically have nothing to do with the actual programming.

Art - you lack the skills to do anything. You dont have hand eye coordination to properly control the pencil or tablet. You lack the ability to see, analyze and interpret shape and form of objects. You dont have a library of textures built up iver years of practice. You do not understand rendering. You see in symbols and know what looks good or pleasing but do not understand or comprehend why those compositions or techniques actually work. You dont know color theory. You dont know anatomy or various species. You dont know inking, various painting and digital techniques.

If you have fundamentals, you can jump in and learn to paint or learn to do traditional japanese ink style or work on hatching or master stippling or actually learn. It would comparable to your programming. Its like saying you cant play piano or learn the same way when you don't t know how to read sheet music, dont know the key names, never used a metronome before, never built neural pathways for hand/finger coordination and need to look at keys at all times. You dont have any foundatipn to actually learn piano.

You have all the fundamentals for computer and programming. This lets you actually learn. Practice line control, line weights, ellupses, etc and study your anatomy and youll see art gains. Once mastered, other styles and skills are learned with basic practice.

>>3929931
>>3929944
>>3929953
wtf

>>3929020
No dude, try learning Java. It's much harder than drawing an anime waifu

>>3929027
big titty anime girls improve the world 10000x over

>>3933728
took me like a week to pick up java, shit like haskell tho, woah

>>3929027
> using programming to make yet another online shop or a shitty CRUD application while shaking in fear of your boss outsourcing your job to India
Fixed you. 99.9% of programmers do not work on these incredible things, you know.

>>3933676
t. never wrote a line of code