/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>3924656
I never listened to him
He's good at everything that touches drawing/painting from ref

JUST

I wonder how good he is at imagination now, it's been yeeeeeeeeeeeears since that stream

>>3924656
>téléchargement (2).jpg

>>3924656
Bonjour mon ami, on va le faire

I want to see him do anime

>>3924656
Anyone also having problems deawing stuff when talking or explaining? My shitty art skills also degenerate even further while i am at it.

I only watch him for his anatomy vids and interviews

because people are fucking worthless and deserve to be manipulated. good on proko for milking their shekels despite having no talent whatsoever.

>>3924656
Why does /ic/ think every artist they learn from has to be a "master of all trades". I don't watch his videos so I can learn to draw from imagination. I watch his videos to learn anatomy and figure drawing. Just because an artist can drawing appealing figures without a reference doesn't mean they're also good with anatomy.

>>3924656
He still draws a million times better than any fag on /ic/.

>>3924665
how long ago was it? It feels like yesterday

>>3925013
He's a fine painter. But it's still fair to analyze and criticize his imaginative drawing because the man sells drawing instruction. People going into this has every right to know that his approach has gaping holes, technical lapses which would not be acceptable in certain fields of art.

The biggest takeaway from his kangaroo drawing demo isn't how it looks nothing like a kangaroo, or that he doesn't know the anatomy of a kangaroo. Even if we accept that drawing as that of an imaginary monster, it showed poor form, lack of balance, and unbelievable physiology. That means, not unlike most people on /ic/, he can regurgitate theory but cannot apply them in a flexible way.

This is worthy of scrutiny. If he only taught oil painting, I wouldn't care less about this. But he teaches figure drawing.

>>3925089
The original stream was on the 20th of Dec 2016, so almost 2 years and 5 months ago https://boards.fireden.net/ic/thread/2784599/

>>3924656
popularity makes you invulnerable to failure, it just doesn't matter what you do once you're popular, you could say that you traced all your artwork from the last 10 years to now and nobody would care

>>3925124
that thread was great

Proko is a decent life painter and good teacher of the fundamentals. He is trash at drawing from imagination because he isn't an illustrator or concept artist and doesn't really need it to do either of his jobs.

And just because he teaches different ways of constructing the figure doesn't mean he will even be good at drawing random shit or even human figures from imagination either. He still uses references to do his constructive drawing lessons, as he should.

Knowing how to simplify the figure and think about it 3 dimensionally on your paper doesn't mean you'll be good at drawing from imagination. It will help tremendously, and so will all of your knowledge and practice from drawing from life, but its still its own skill that needs to be practiced. And I'm not convinced that Proko does a lot of drawing anymore, either from life or imagination unless its for his videos.

tl;dr
>Proko was terrible at drawing a Kangaroo from imagination because he probably never practiced drawing kangaroos from life nor from imagination before, and therefore his mental image of a kangaroo looked like a fetus despite him knowing how to use simplified shapes to describe 3d forms

>>3925124
>>3925174
What's stopping him from getting up to speed with imagination drawing skill now? Two years should be enough time to practice to get at a decent level.

>>3925193
That's what I'm wondering, with his extensive knowledge of the figure, anatomy and all that jazz, and then 2+ years from realizing his imaginative skill is shit, should've been loads of him for him to work on that weakness and get it up to par.

>>3924660
Oh shit, my sides.

>>3925124
That thread man

>>3925124
that thread is absolutely hilarious, i implore everyone to read it

>>3924656
Would he ever be able to redeem himself, /ic/?

>>3925142
sad but true

>>3925142
Critique is a gift not a punishment.

>>3925281
Post your work.

>>3925284
I have no work to post. I'm just passing through hoping to pick up a thing or two. Do you disagree with me?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GOuIgevbHs8

he was trying to draw a kangaroo. christ...

>>3925193
What's stopping him is whether he wants to practice it or not. From what I've seen is that he's mostly interested in just painting portraits and landscapes which you can just do from life + reference, and he doesn't even really have time to do that with running his business.

I think its wasted potential as an artist, but he's more professional Youtuber than artist.

>>3925124
>>"h-haha this is from imagination of course!
>>quickly glances to hidden reference in his sleeve
>>awkward smile on camera while droplets of sweat fall from his brow
>tfw he didn't even do that
kek

>>3925124
>https://youtu.be/yxh103itB2s?t=2m11s
this is pretty cool

>>3925124

>>3924656
WTF is that supposed to be?

>>3924656
do people only watch the 5 minute highlight reel of this? the one that cuts out him saying he's going to draw a monster based on his imagination using parts from different creatures?

>>3925791
Kek. Nice fucking monster faggot.

>>3924665
Could he be living proof of the NPC?

God, imagine not being able to imagine, IMAGINE.

>>3924656
new to /ic/, keep seeing this aborted fetus with proko, what happened?

>>3924660
fucking KEK

>>3926701
All the answers lie here >>3925124

>>3924656
>>3925148
>>3925124
this guy's a fraud as far as i'm concerned after viewing all this shit.

someone who can't get basic fundies to a certain basic level, yet still paints at a near professional level for his referenced stuff is just a fraud.
he's basically just doing 'advanced' paint-by-numbers

>>3926750
I always say he's a fraud because he teaches a constructive method but he clearly can't use construction, when he draws basic shapes they're completely wrong and flat, he doesn't understand volume at all.
So he teaches construction by copying his instructional material sight-size. So yeah, he literally copies the boxes and the framework for construction. That's what I think. I think it's because most people who want to learn to draw don't wanna just copy, so in his marketing scheme he knew that an atelier method would have failed to gain interest outside of fine arts. He wanted the more serious chunk of the Jazza public.
/ic/ people for some reason think it's about "reference", this has never been about reference. If a person who uses a constructive method uses reference all the time he's still going to create a new thing from scratch, because with a constructive method you understand what you are drawing from reference and you can replicate it from your head. Being completely unable to draw anything without copying is a sign that you are just trained to copy, not that you use reference.
I have learned watching Vilppu and seeing Proko draw from life raised all sorts of red flags.

recommend me actual good artists

>>3927000
Kim Jung Gi

It was a humbling demonstration that imagination drawing is a skillset unique from observational drawing.

Proko should be a warning to the studygoblins who think doing 100 photostudies a day will teach them to draw anything they want. It won't. It'll compliment imagination drawing, but only if you train both.

That said, I think he'd pick up imagination drawing far quicker than your average pleb with the other knowledge he had if he applied himself. He has the knowledge, he just hadn't trained the skill of drawing from imagination.

>>3927043
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoqu5SEFqRI

>>3928797
>Drawing from imagination is a unique skill
>Drawing from observation compliments imagination
Correct. I'd even say drawing from observation is a requirement for drawing from imagination. Drawing from observation with repetition is how you get you get that mental image to pull from when you draw from imagination. And when you draw from imagination, you recall all the knowledge you built up from studying life and by doing so you reinforce it in your memory. To reach your full potential as an artist you need to be actively doing both.

This is what a lot of people on this board do not understand: studying and drawing from life/reference is what will determine what you can pull from your head. If Proko did 10 studies of kangaroos from reference before trying to draw one from imagination it would probably would have looked like a kangaroo. In the video he constantly says he has trouble drawing this and that from imagination because he doesn't have a strong mental image of what it looks like.

>>3924656
What does everyone think about his appearance on an adobe livestream, he freely admits that he sucks at drawing from imagination during it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7wFGwQxT6a0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FvBOis8fZc
Cant seem to find a part 3, might have gotten removed.

>>3925174
>And I'm not convinced that Proko does a lot of drawing anymore, either from life or imagination unless its for his videos.
He had a kid a while back.

>>3928834
>>3928797
you are both wrong, this is a copy vs. construction issue

>>3925124
>>2786136
>It all makes sense now. Proko just wanted to draw cute cartoony stuff all along. All those years doing long poses and still lives was a distraction from his real goals. Young Proko got into 3d animation because it allowed him to produce cute and cartoony stuff that was better than what he could draw. At Watts he thought to himself "if I study here long enough surely I'll be able to draw whatever I want!" and now here he is a decade later making the horrible realization that it didn't work
DAMN.

>>3929439

>>3929439
>>3929445
DELET

>>3928824
>I've been told that my drawings are...misogynistic
based

>>3929439
Literally me
Oh. Fug what do I do.

>>3924656
Jesus, people really need to separate the message from the messenger. It's not about following pop stars or something, just take the good in everyone and leave out the bad.

But I'm pretty sure nobody wants to hear that, people just want drama.

>>3929524
In Proko's own immortal words: "Don't make the same mistake. Don't wait 10 years to start drawing from imagination."

>>3926806
As entry level and simplistic he might be, Jazza curbstomps proko with ease.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vPL1uh9Sd1c

>>3929407
Try reading my post before you say stupid shit. Learning "construction" will not magically allow you anything you want from imagination if you don't remember what it looks like.

>>3929407
You don't know what you're talking about. Learning "construction" doesn't magically allow you to draw animals for example from memory/imagination if you have no idea what they look like in your head.

>>3931497
Yes you can. You can invent creatures from scratch with construction and solid knowledge of anatomy. Even if you have never drawn a dog before, if you know how to draw humans really well your very first dog won't look like that shapeless abortion. Not to mention that the kangaroo isn't just shit from an anatomical perspective, it's shit from a construction standpoint. He literally can't draw construction because he doesn't really use it, his method is copying. I am absolutely certain that Proko can't even draw people from his head.

>>3930125
>people really need to separate the message from the messenger
He's not a messenger. He's peddling his own knowledge.
>just take the good in everyone and leave out the bad.
That seems to be the point of the thread, isn't it? The bad is how limited his construction/gesture methods really are in practice. Not many have assailed his painting skills.

>>3931497
Yes, it actually does.
Fucking retard.
The science behind construction drawing is literally meant to help you draw things you have only seen.

You probably think people actually spend countless hours drawing individual animals just to get good at drawing them which is a completely uneccessary and a huge waste of time.

>>3930125
>people really need to separate the message from the messenger
would you take guitar lessons from a guy who can't improvise a simple song? I wouldn't.

>>3931841
If I was an absolute beginner? yes.
The advice you need when you first start out isn't the same advice you need when you have experience.

Part of being experienced in a skill is learning to take in the information that's valuable to you and discard what you cant use.

>>3931859
>Part of being experienced in a skill is learning to take in the information that's valuable to you and discard what you cant use.
How do you get experienced in the first place if you learn from people who are not?

>>3931864
You learn from people who aren't experts but are still more skilled than you are at the current moment. When that persons advice/knowledge is no longer useful you move on to the next person who may not be best of the best, but still has something you can learn from them.

Think of it like this, your elementary school math teacher didn't need a PhD to teach you because they were teaching basics that would be built upon. but by the time you get to high school/college your instructors will have a more advanced degrees because you already know those basics and you need something else to advance your knowledge in mathematics. That doesn't mean that the elementary teacher was useless for you when you were a kid. Just that you outgrew them.

>>3931859
no it's crucial from who you learn. Or would you rather come to realization 10 years after and spend years to unlearn bad habits and knowledge in order to start learning properly?

>>3931815
> You can invent creatures from scratch
he wasnt though. the exercise was "mix parts of existing creatures."
his mistake was not looking at any references for the parts. you cant have a dogs paw connected to an emu if you only vaguely have the stereotype symbols for each in your mind.

>>3931875
I think this mindset is a big problem on /ic/, you're always learning regardless, if in 10 years you find yourself wanting to do something different or even making a realization that is critical of your body of work, then that's it, it doesn't change your objective of refining your craft.

there's no min maxing in art.

>>3931882
>he wasnt though. the exercise was "mix parts of existing creatures."
Not that poster, but I feel you're backing yourself into a very small corner with these caveats.

The problems with his drawing weren't limited to anatomical correctness. It had no balance, bad forms, inorganic posture, and no sense of life, energy or motion. These are all qualities that are independent from textbook anatomy. They are also the very issues that gesture and construction are supposed to solve.

Proko is bad at this. His methods are limited. His gesture course in particular is largely sight measurement masquerading as gesture. No amount of wordsmithing and rhetoric can rehabilitate that drawing.

There are so many educational sources on the subject of drawing that are just as easy to obtain and absorb, defending his kangaroo is a waste of effort. Plug his shading tutorial or his painting tutorial if you like. But to anyone looking to learn these drawing topics, have the decency to point them elsewhere.

>>3931889
post your work

>>3931870
Teaching basic maths to children with a universal method is not the same at teaching the fundamentals of art. If you learn from a shitty guitarist and he doesn't teach you correct hand posture you'll be a cripple for years until an actually skilled teacher fixes you. And it's a lot of work.
If you have the opportunity to learn from a good teacher like Vilppu, why not learn from him? Why settle for an amateur?

>>3931882
>the exercise was "mix parts of existing creatures."
same thing
>his mistake was not looking at any references for the parts. you cant have a dogs paw connected to an emu if you only vaguely have the stereotype symbols for each in your mind.
he made mistakes on a fundamental drawing level, anatomy was the last problem. that picture of the minion shows that super clearly, he can't draw a cylinder.

>>3931910

>>3931929
i agreed with you. seeing your work comforts me. cool

>>3924656
>Why do people still listen to him after this fiasco?
As if you've never made a bad drawing

>>3931915
>Why settle for an amateur?
why not "shop around" and learn from all that you can find? maybe youll pick up a digital painting trick or work ethic lesson.

>>3932176
>or work ethic lesson.
like not teaching if you don't know shit? yeah

>>3931833
>The science behind construction drawing is literally meant to help you draw things you have only seen.

That's exactly what I said. Despite Proko knowing how to draw humans pretty well with a structured approach, that still doesn't allow him to draw animals from memory because he knows so little about them. So how could he possibly draw them or mix them together from imagination?

>You probably think people actually spend countless hours drawing individual animals just to get good at drawing them which is a completely uneccessary and a huge waste of time.

What you just described is called practice and no it isn't a waste of time. Apply what you just said to figure drawing and its obvious what you just said is ridiculous. There are hours of footage of Glenn Vilppu drawing animals from observation - doing exactly what you said. Why would he be doing that if its a waste of time? He's so good at drawing them from imagination accurately because he has spent so much time studying what they actually look like and how they work that he has a strong memory and understanding of them in general to pull from.

You have to have an understanding and memory of what you're drawing before you can use it for any drawing even if you know how to draw constructively or else you will have no idea what you're doing (Proko). I don't think I can make it any clearer.

>>3931815
You are literally, not figuratively, retarded.

Just because you draw humans doesn't mean you can draw animals. They have different bone and muscle structure that you have to learn.

>>3932185
Proko probably can't draw people from his head. You'd think he'd draw a few human beings from imagination in that video, guess why he didn't.

>>3932220
you complete fucking braindead imbecile, you don't need to study opossums all your life to draw a passable one. You drooling mouthbreather, take this e-celeb's dick off your mouth and think: there is NO fucking way a person who studied anatomy for a couple decades has never fucking seen a dog's skeleton. It is simply impossible. If you have ever seen the skeleton of a dog and you have achieved mastery of construction and human anatomy you understand the basic landmarks and differences instantly, and if you draw a dog with no experience it will still look like a fucking dog. It won't look great, but it will look like a dog.
Proko made that abortion because he does not know anatomy and he does not know construction. He is an atelier trained artist who can only copy sight size while pretending he uses construction. he knows none of the things he's teaching.

>>3931841
Yes. If he can do the fundamental right and he's a good teacher then yes.
Then I'd evolve from myself after that or go seek another teacher.

>>3931972
That's good, just want to reiterate that the idea that there's this perfect linear path to mastery and you must follow it rigidly or you're "ngmi" holds back a sizeable portion of /ic/ browsers. They either

>Become paralyzed with choice and end up just procrastinating, hoarding educational material.

>Become dogmatic on how you "should" learn art and spend more time defending their thesis than actually proving it.

>>3929445


Fucking kek

>>3932346
> if you draw a dog with no experience it will look like a bad drawing of a dog
Even you can't ignore the truth of that. If you barely know what you're drawing it will look like shit. At that point you should just pull up a reference photo and draw from that and it will look 10x better while you actually learn how to draw dogs as they look. With repetition you'll be able to draw them from imagination well.

It seems like its too much for you to handle that practicing how to draw humans with a constructive approach will not necessarily allow you to draw everything else from imagination, just humanoids. /ic/ has fooled you because "Construction" is not a magic shortcut to draw whatever you want without studying from life. Stop being lazy and put in some work to really learn what you want to draw if you want to be better than Proko.

does anyone have the proko imagination drawing series pic

>>3933080
>If you barely know what you're drawing
It was a fucking dog not some rare jellyfish
>It seems like its too much for you to handle that practicing how to draw humans with a constructive approach will not necessarily allow you to draw everything else from imagination, just humanoids. /ic/ has fooled you because "Construction" is not a magic shortcut to draw whatever you want without studying from life.
Nobody has fooled me into anything and I can draw animals just fine, why are you projecting like a retard? I did not say you will draw perfect stuff from your head, using reference is necessary for accuracy. I simply said - and I'm explaining yet another time so that it may penetrate your thick skull - that a person who mastered construction would never fuck up a simple dog like Proko fucked up. What he produced is alarming and it's a sign that he does not in fact use construction or knows basic anatomy.
>Stop being lazy and put in some work to really learn what you want to draw if you want to be better than Proko.
Do you have autism? I don't wanna be better than anyone, I'm just saying that this guy doesn't know anatomy or construction. I am not interested in sight size.
Please don't argue about construction if you don't use it or you started drawing yesterday

>>3924656
is his course any good?
how does it compare dynamic sketching?

>>3933120
this?

>>3933354

>>3933120
I know what you're referring to, gimme a sec

>>3933355

>>3933357

>>3933356
>>3933120
got it

proko memes are some of the best

>>3931889
>learn from a bad master
>be shit

this is no rocket sciene anon.. one of the reasons asians always excelled at arts was that they never disregarded the value of a master and went their way to become apprentices only of the best of the best if that someone would take them in. It was the case 1500 years ago, as it is now.

>>3924656

>>3933367
Your romanticized view of asians aside, my point is >>3932822. Proko is not even a bad teacher, just narrowly focused, you can absolutely learn life drawing from him and be better for it.

Again, /ic/ is obsessed with this gamified fantasy of what they believe learning drawing should be. Following some write up of how to spec out to maximize their line control stat or some shit. That's not how it works, it's constant refinement. Learning , discarding and relearning things again as you forget them and as YOUR TASTE CHANGES AS AN ARTIST.

That and this board is filled with contrarians and gossiping queens that love to harp on artist's bad work. You don't learn "imagination drawing" from proko, you learn life drawing from him. Learn the other skill from another teacher, or figure it out on your own if you're mad enough.

Are you that pyw anon?

>>3933389

>>3933465

>>3933349
>>3932346
>>3931833

this

>>3933349
>Proko doesn't really know construction and anatomy despite it being literally his job to teach and make videos about those two subjects for the last 6 years

Just lol. With the amount of research and demonstration drawings Proko has done for his videos alone he probably knows more about this most.

>Proko's drawings from imagination suck because he doesn't really know construction and human anatomy

Its obvious that he does so that's not the reason.Say you wanted to draw goats accurately from imagination... Which would help you more - looking at real goats and study them via drawing OR drawing more human figures to get better at their anatomy and construction and hope it carries over to goats somehow. The answer is obvious because goats look completely fucking different from humans.

You're making the same mistake that Proko made when he fucked up with that video - assuming you know more than you do about shit you've never even tried to learn and that you can pull a decent drawing out of your ass of something completely different just because you are good at drawing the human figure with construction.

His mistake was not realizing he knew next to nothing about animals and drawing from imagination in general until he tried to do it live on stream... Not that he doesn't know construction and anatomy when that's the point of 90% of his videos lmao.

>>3933349
>Proko doesn't really know construction and anatomy despite it being literally his job to teach and make videos about those two subjects for the last 6 years

Just lol. With the amount of research and demonstration drawings Proko has done for his videos alone he probably knows more about this than most.

>Proko's drawings from imagination suck because he doesn't really know construction and human anatomy

Its obvious that he does so that's not the reason.Say you wanted to draw goats accurately from imagination... Which would help you more - looking at real goats and study them via drawing OR drawing more human figures to get better at their anatomy and construction and hope it carries over to goats somehow. The answer is obvious because goats look completely fucking different from humans.

You're making the same mistake that Proko made when he fucked up with that video - assuming you know more than you do about shit you've never even tried to learn and that you can pull a decent drawing out of your ass of something completely different just because you are good at drawing the human figure with construction.

His mistake was not realizing he knew next to nothing about animals and drawing from imagination in general until he tried to do it live on stream... Not that he doesn't know construction and anatomy when that's the point of 90% of his videos lmao.

>>3934386
>I'll keep repeating my braindead argument while projecting like an autist, that'll make it right!