/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>3857851
>Just to clarify, I'm not saying comics are inferior
Yes you do, stop denying that you are baiting when even an idiot can see that you are obviously baiting.

east good
west bad

What western comics do you read?

>>3857851

>>3857925
I have no fucking clue on how to read this.

>>3857851
Manga goes straight to peak efficiency.
Efficiency in both reading and drawing.
Very often, it doesn't care if it's correct as long as it reads well

>>3857959
They are in a skyscraper running from bottom to top. Previous pages build to verticality so reading like two vertical stacks works. From left bottom corner to top, to right top corner to bottom.

>>3857987
That's retarded, no wonder that One Piece is going to overtake Batman and Superman in a few years.

>>3857987
It doesn't read well because the eye doesn't know where to start. Maybe it flows naturally from the previous page, but I'll assume it doesn't.
The problem could be corrected with the speech bubbles leading the eye, but as it is there, the eye just want to jump to the "natural" first speech bubble, which just so happen to be on the exact opposite angle of the reading start.
It just doesn't work.

>>3857925
That's a really bad counter example.

>>3857925
What a mess. Nobody reads bottom to top.

>>3857851
Notice the delayed impact. The first big panel feels slower, then the small panels are a quick chain of events. First the attack, than the damage on the character (split in halbes), and finally the environment is affected (flying rocks, dust, speed lines) and finally the slain figure falling.
Another trick is the figure expanding the panel with heavily exaggerated perspective, implying a foreward movement tool place.

I don't really read a lot of manga/comics, but these techniques of exaggeration and delayed impact are also used in animation.

>>3858032
good post

>>3857925
Garbage, I can't for the life of me understand what this shit is about

it’s because for some reason western comics put the focus on realistic rendering and color instead of motion and rhythm like manga. idk why capeshit always looks like stiff traced photos or why it sells but it does.

>>3857851
The stiffness and blockyness is a huge reason why I can't get into capeshit/western comics. It just makes everything so boring to read. Comics are more than just pictures with text on top.

But to answer you, I think manga does a superior job at motion because
>they're not afraid to warp and distort things to convey extreme action
>better use of speedlines
>timing
Western shit is too stiff in general because they keep everything on model 100% of the time and don't take advantage of timing. It's absolutely skill-related too. Doing highly-detailed character renders doesn't necessarily translate to fluidity in conveyed motion. It's almost like the difference between a painter and an animator. The painter can make amazing, realistic single pieces but that doesn't mean they can use animation principles to show action and motion necessarily.

Didn't Tezuka do both comics and animation? That could explain why manga does motion better maybe.

>>3858108
Was about to say the same thing. Manga, in general, seems less worried about staying on model and more concerned with giving a sense of movement. It's probably why most manga are so easy to translate into anime, there's an overlap in the used techniques. American comics, on the other hand, read like a series of paintings with text bubbles slapped on as an afterthought.
>Didn't Tezuka do both comics and animation? That could explain why manga does motion better maybe.
Correct. The modern manga/anime style is heavily derived from Tezuka's(which, in turn, was inspired by Disney's, which was also pretty dynamic).

>>3857925
Holy fuck this is so bad

>>3857925
I get it. It's funny because the stairs look the same, but aren't the same. He's actually going up to another set of stairs. It looks like one action in one place, but it's a different place each time.

>>3858222
This would only make sense if he came out of the door on the "last" (bottom) frame. I really think it's just meant to be read bottom up...

>>3858242
Yeah, it's read bottom up, but it may be confusing if you don't understand it's not the same place. The real way to read it though is to follow the yellow line. It's apparently a guiding tool.

>>3857925
This would be pretty good if they were running down but this way it's completely retarded

>>3858262
But that's easy. Just jump down. You can't easily jump up, now can you?

>>3857925
Very hard to read what is going on here

>>3858278
Only if you read it wrong.

>>3858246
the yellow line is indeed a reading guide.
But there's no hint saying you must start at the bottom, so I naturally followed the line from the top, which is wrong.

>>3858289
>no hint
It may seem so, the hint is that the line comes out of the door, which is why I was able to figure it out.

>>3858294
it could go into the door as well. There's no arrow saying it comes out, and to see that it comes out of the door in the first place, you have to read it from the top to the bottom.
It. doesn't. work.

>>3858300
It can't go into the door because he's coming out of the door. Flawed logic.

>>3858077
/thread

>>3858077
But capeshit sells like...well...shit lmao. No one fucking reads that shit unless they're over 30. Capeshit comics are mostly IP placeholders

>>3858301
And you can't know that without following it to the bottom in the first place.
So you follow a line from top to bottom which makes no sense, THEN you understand it's wrong and read it again.

>>3857925
>paneling is so convoluted it causes a discussion on how to interpret the page in the thread

>>3858337
That's good composition then. You're naturally inclined to read it downwards, so then you'll notice it's actually opposite which subverts your expectations as you follow the line back up. It's genius.

>>3858344
No.
You're naturally inclined to read horizontaly in rows.
Then, when you realize it doesn't work, you try to read it in columns.
Then, on the third try, after analysing your second failed attempt, you understand it should be read backward.
All that during what should be a fast-paced action sequence, you're forced to stop and think instead of flowing naturally.
It's not genius, it's awful sequencing.

>>3857925
Not sure if this was supposed to help western comics' case or not. The paneling is fucking awful, and boring static camera angles for the stair climb make it worse. I know now that they're ascending steps in a spiral but only after having to struggle with it and anons pointing out why it doesn't work. Starting from the bottom of the page like that was a bad call, even if characters are going up steps. I understand WHY the artist did it but it just doesn't work out without messing up the flow

>>3857925
Art is good but the panel flow is unbelievably bad and stiff.

It was already said but I felt like a genius for finding out about this on my own so I'll say it. It's because comics rely on "always being on model to look realistic but in reality they come off as statues.

Comics ARE inferior as an action medium,they rely on fucking still frames which are considered the lowest form of conveying action in animation and manga too for lack of a better form.
I mean all panels are still frames, but comics generally can't show motion all that well so most feel like a stereotypical
>WHAM
>POW
scenes. Idk. Stiffness. It was an eye opener for me, I don't want to be that kind of artist so I'm wary of people telling you to always use reference since the pros do it. I'm sure as hell Oda needs no reference for One Piece and it reads better than most series. Murata uses refs from time to time but he constructs whole scenes from one picture, he pretty much absorbs the reference and uses that body to do different poses from different angles with motion.
Western comics though can have better storytelling even with worse action and the rendering sometimes helps. Those ww hulk and civil war comida look awesome.

>>3858344
>Trust me guys, it’s shit on purpose!

There is absolutely no reason to subvert any expectations with the panel flow here. It dosen’t serve any kind of thematic purpose and just kills the pacing of the reading experience. One of the most important things in panel flow is making sure the reader dosen’t need to think about which panel to look at next as it should happen seamlessly. This page fails at that for absolutely no other reason than a bad understanding of that.

>>3857851
If you're talking about capes, it's because cape artists can't draw, and for some reason (maybe house style rules) they don't use speedlines.

>>3858446
One thing I have learned about making comics that confirmed itself over and over and over every time I saw an attempt against it, is that if you want to do something weird with paneling, it ends up like shit.
It's really like a director intentionally shooting a movie with the camera upside down just to do something unusual. You just don't do that shit. Maybe you use a Dutch angle in ONE scene, that's enough.

>>3858429
It's good that you analyzed the issue and came to the same conclusion independently. Now you really understand the "why" for yourself.

I still use aspects of capeshit to learn like anatomy, rendering, and inking if the artist is one of the better ones. But since I know that capeshit tends to be stiff in the action department, I use Japanese comics to learn paneling and action, along with the skills previously mentioned.

>>3857896
You still fell for it.

>>3857925
I tried a ton of different ways to read this and the only one that make more sense was the manga right to left way... Until anons point in comment that I should start from the BOTTOM WTF

>>3857851
this is just an example of a DONNNN page, where a huge move has been made. so yeah it needs to be exaggerated, because its supposed to show the peak kinetic energy. the reader needs to fully grasp how strong the character is.

i wouldnt say this is not present in western comics, but western comics are extremely diverse, and its not always just about I BELIEVE IN MY SELF AND FUOHHHHH YOU DEAD NOW BITCHH

posting my favorite manga for this thread because I find it amazing how much movement there is when it's just two high schoolers talking to one another

>>3858655
>and its not always just about I BELIEVE IN MY SELF AND FUOHHHHH YOU DEAD NOW BITCHH
OP wasn't really making a case about the quality of writing in manga. I don't even read manga and I don't like the manga style of drawing but the Japanese are clearly miles ahead in terms of using comics for dynamism and their paneling is absolutely rock solid. They got the whole comics part of comics down to a T, they NEVER fuck up. If the comic needs an open panel at some point, you can bet your ass there will be an open panel there. They just don't miss a beat. Western comics are chock full of mistakes, or they try to be clever like >>3857925 and fail miserably. Many comic artists in the west are really not that good at comics because they're mostly illustrators, and those who are good have borrowed things from manga at some point.
Not even going to mention capeshit artists, those are the worst and they all seem to have this enormous ego where they just stopped learning in the 90s.

>>3858707
I agree, man. But if you do read a lot of manga, you'll know that they are always more or less the same shit. it's a formula that has been folded over wan birrian times. Hmm... must be the japanese approach to things.

>Every discussing the panelling
Why? The point of the threads was a guy saying that western comics don't capture motion well, so the page was posted as an example of motion being captured well. Panelling had nothing to do with the thread.

>>3858077
Correct.

>>3858675
Man do I love Bakuman its the first manga series I ever finished. Yeah this whole page flows so nicely panel to panel.

>>3858841
You are probably right, I don't read a lot of manga. The last thing I have read was Tongari Boushi No Atorie, and the Nausicaa manga years before. I have this opinion from seeing modern manga pages around 4chan, they're always impeccable from a paneling standpoint. Like that BNHA comic is really dumb but holy shit the action scenes are so perfectly done.

It feels good to know the japanese sekrits but see /ic/ have brainlet discussions about simple things they don't know

>>3858937
If you can't read the motion because the panelling is so bad, it kind of defeats the goal

Editors.

If a japanese artist came up with >>3857925 , his editor would have trashed it.

>>3859353
Western capes don't have editors?

>>3859366
They do, but maybe not the kind that looks at a popular artist right in the eye and tells him his work is trash when he pulls out something like that.

>>3859325
Tongari hat has some clever paneling here and there. It looks more like a picture book for kids than comic.

>>3859396
man, this actually works compared to >>3857925

>>3858108
>Tezuka
Tezuka introduced film theory like cutback into manga. He tried every single crazy paneling idea in his works. Some are good and some are just confusing. Literally all Japanese Manga artists after him have read them.

>>3859366
Yes but they are wyomnx of color whose only concern is that your female superhero doesn't look enough like a tranny.

>>3857851
Mangakas focus on form and composition while american artists (typically Marvel and DC) spend most of their time polishing and fully rendering out pages and panels with colour, shading and depth.

>>3859407
thats smart

>>3857851
American comic books are 20 pages sold once a month, they need to make sure they fit in some story and polishing, otherwise the buyer would feel they didn't get their money's worth. In effect, they can't afford to spend the whole issue in an action sequence with no exposition. Which some manga do, because they come out weekly, and they have to work faster and with less detailed and colored work. Different economic models, aside from culture.

>>3859457
one piece has been coming out once a week for like 20 years and its still great, i dont really see an explanation other than incompetence and lack of skill LAMO

>>3859468
Western work ethic and taste are just different.

>>3857925
you should have used some of those pannels from that ghost rider reboot comic, the car guy swings people around with his chain and it looks a bit something like your example with the line of action but it is more clear to read

>>3859471
1 guy writes
1 guy draws
1 guy inks
another guy colors
I think that's the norm but there's just something impersonal about that
I don't really care abut the coloring though but if the writer did the rough sketches himself of how the story would play out I think that would just add more to the comic in some way

>>3857851
One thing I’ve noticed listening to Western comic artists, even the best of them, talking about drawing is that they basically don’t like to think. Bam, Superman looking like a condom stuffed with almonds awkwardly punching some retarded monster in the face, yeah! Next page, baby! Even the best are really shallow thinkers who aren’t seeking to create their own reality and are content to play in the established sandbox of Western comic art conventions. The best manga artists seem to actually be concerned with creating their own visual world with rules and logic to how things look and work, and this extends to dynamism and fluidity of motion.

>>3860706
I've never heard a wiser observation on this topic. Western comic artists are like animator. They are good at drawing. May be the best. But they don't create their own fictional world.

>>3857851
>>3858077
>>3858108
>>3858429
>>3860691

etc
you're clearly memeing, but I'd like it if the weebs could get some education about "western" comics. First of all, there's at least two sources : USA and France-Belgium. It's so stupid to always see europe ignored when it's so rich, not to mention there's more to usa than cape

I highly recommend the 2013 Shaolin cowboy if you want good action flow in american comic

>>3860795
When speaking about Franco-belgium, we usualy use the term "bande dessinee", and comics refers more to the USA-produced content.
I mean, if you take it that way, technicaly manga is comics too.

>>3860811
I know, it's just an english speaking board so I took the english word for it.
Also, it's "art séquentiel figuro-narratif"

>>3860827
No one outside of the academic field would use "art sequentiel figuro-narratif", meanwhile "bande dessinee" and "comics" are a distinction made by readers and any bookshop could make the difference.

I mean if you want to go FULL technical, "western comics", for an american, should be manga, since japan is to the west for them.

>so much movement and fluidity

>>3860830
>I mean if you want to go FULL technical, "western comics", for an american, should be manga, since japan is to the west for them.
If I ever shitpost on /ic/, this is what I'm going to do

>>3860835
Unironically more movement and fluidity than capeshit

>>3859402
i guess it depends on the type of story being told

also : moebius

>>3860835
this is fun

>>3860844
>>3860849
it's Gotlib, Rhâ-gnagna tome 2, right at the beginning

>>3857851
its probally because of the fact that manga artists just spend so much time actually drawing in there medium of choice desu least for the weekly series. after all they mostly draw 20 pages of stuff a week.
let say that a manga artist and a comic artist both started there professional carer at 20 and they both didn't take any leaves of absence from work/get fired and have to get a new work. would the western comic creators amount of pages done compare to the Japanese creator by the time they were both 30?

>>3860851

>>3860853

>>3860852
are you implying american and european artists stop drawing when they're not doing their paid work ?

>>3860855

now this one>>3860835
then the image I'm posting

>>3860858

>>3860860

>>3860855
no of corse not its just the fact that they probally still dint get as much done on an average because of less pressure to "make it".

also work ethic culture probably tie into it cause you know how much those Japanese love working themselves to death.

>>3860855
>>3860853
No wonder us frogs are such big weebs, our comics and manga were never that different.

>>3860857
>>3860858
>Feet is a fist
>ABCDE
Fucking keke

>>3860861
>Pommard ?

>Po-pommard 1959 ?

>Pommard 1959...the year of the century...

>with...with ice cubes !!

>after...the camembert...in...the fridge...
>it's too much
>no

>It was an aderlsaly of gleat coulage...he was hald to ovelcome...he's dead...but his souvenil will folevel stay englaved in my memoly... (1)
>(1)Quite happily, we learned at the last minute that Superdupont had only been victim of a temporary faintness

>>3857851
There's a long history of western painters making comics that completely contradict your point; many of whom are still active in the industry today.

>>3860852
Western comic creators don't even get by with comics, they sell softcore porn. Unless you're some superstar like Jim Lee with autists that collect your pages of Batman talking with his butler, your main income comes from drawing Catwoman's ass. Just look on eBay and see what most commissions are. Comics are a secondary product for most artists.
Outside of the industry you don't even matter unless you market yourself as a pangender transqueer woman of color or you draw porn. Many Euro artists have a real job to make ends meet. Stan Sakai needed help for medical bills, that's where integrity gets you in the west.
For how perverted and obsessed with porn Japan is, at least you can still make it if you have skill or vision, and you have a niche for comics that aren't shonen. People are actually interested in reading stories so of course artists will draw comics as their main thing, and being an artist is actually a job, a shitty job but it's a real job because there is an actual demand for art. In the west it's just consumerist shit, art has no meaning and storytelling doesn't make sense. Comics are fucking dead in the west, there's always the same few properties and even those are dying as their collectors grow old or uninterested.

>>3860853
ah, forgot the little thing on the bread
>Rye bread
>to eat before 8-1965
The thing being the album was made in 1980, and pre-published in fluide glacial in 1978, I think, for this one ; thus the performance of our national hero on this now soon-to-be 54 years old piece of countryside pride.

>>3860851
>>3860850
Conveying dynamism with this kind of art style is so fucking hard.

>>3860850
>>3860848
Conveying dynamism with this kind of art style is so fucking hard.

>>3860877
(you)'re a cretin
>what is franco-belgian
>how are mangaka paid
>fantagraphics, image, dark horse, etc. don't exist, only big two

>>3860886
>>fantagraphics, image, dark horse, etc. don't exist, only big two
Yeah, I talked about Stan Sakai. And funny enough, Dark Horse is probably going to die soon because it lost properties like Star Wars which make up for most of the revenue.

>>what is franco-belgian
Many Euro artists have real jobs.

>>how are mangaka paid
No idea, probably like shit but at least they are allowed to work.

>>3860891
>a real job
:^)
you're part of the problem

>>3860909
if you can't pay your bills with it, it's not a real job.

>>3860691
That's a big reason why I can't stand capeshit art. It's inconsistent and there's several areas where something can go wrong. And no matter what, virtually ALL modern capeshit comics have that shitty digital gradient fill coloring style. Or that photoshop look.

Even if I try to read an issue specifically because it has an artist I like, the pencil work is usually fucked by a shitty inker. And EVERYTHING is ruined by the shitty coloring. There's just no winning.

Here's an interesting thread about manga paneling
https://twitter.com/rachel_thorn_en/status/954370209380368384

>western comics
Please don't lump other country with america.

>>3860978
spamming extreme perspective doesn't make things flow, it's even tiring for the eyes

>>3860996
true

>>3860969
I wanna save this entire thing some how, it's very interesting

>>3860922
If nobody thinks it's a real job, nobody willt get paid enough to pay the bills. I get you, but it has to be pushed as a legitimate status wether or not you get paid enough so you can get rights. If you start telling everyone that the industry is dead, it's not going to get better because of you saying it. Not to mention many actually can pay their bills. Mangaka can do so because they can't do anything else than their job, so they spend little outside of investing into material, assistants, etc. In europe you actually expect people to have a life.
To be fair to all, comics have never been the go-to to make money even as an artist since the pay depends on the sales, and that's the same for everyone in the end

>>3860969
Interesting thread but the rest of that woman's Twitter feed gave me cancer. "Translator", no wonder we're seeing so many intentionally-mistranslated manga with Tumblr talking points inserted into them. These fucking robots can't leave anything pure and beautiful alone, can they?

>>3860969
hey thanks; I really wish there were books that actually discussed manga paneling. I'm sure there are, but the chances of them getting translated are pretty slim I guess
>>3861064
>queer people bad >:^(
in all seriousness she just comes across as your average left-leaning liberal; her timeline wouldn't be so bad if it weren't cluttered with thousands of retweets

>>3861094
>queer
>married with children

Er...

>>3861307
It's a tranny

>>3860872
Thanks for sharing this.

>>3857851
Both are IP farms. One does things that would look cool in animation, one tries to avoid at all costs doing things that couldn't be done in TV or lower budget cinema.

The result is one is full of dynamism and style while the other even goes as far as to trace celebrities for characters.

>>3860872
Fucking KEK

>>3860795
I guess mangakas see themselves more as cartoonists rather than artists? As in, an artist seeks self-expression while a cartoonist seeks to deliver their story in the clearest way possible, which includes exaggerating motion and proportions, and even timing, as said by >>3858032

This is not about being worse or best, it's what the priorities are in each part of the world:

West = Drawing nice looking stuff

Japan = Storytelling

There are obviously exceptions to these both (Alex Toth simplifying everything for the sake of storytelling, comic artists that prefer calling themselves cartoonists rather than comic artists) but that seems to be the tendency I see.

>>3858077
Western people have shit art education, the average normie thinks the epitome of skill is le celebrity photocopy. If you show anything that isn't photorealistic to a normie he sees it as some no skill 5 minute scribble no matter who made it and no matter how tight, I've seen it with many people I know and I live in Europe. The US are probably even worse. Only artists can understand skill in a line drawing, we have a warped view.
The Japanese have a way more solid art education, art is taken seriously in schools, Japanese people definitely appreciate nuance better, probably also because of their art history and woodblock printing they have a taste for stylized art.

>>3857925
what the fuck

western comics tend to focus more on storytelling and dialogue to progress the pages instead of physical action

>>3861094
The thousands of retweets are indicative of mindset honestly. They're evidence of someone who can't divorce their personal politics from the rest of their life at any time and are most likely to inject them into whatever they're working on even when it would be wildly inappropriate to do so.

>>3857925

What bugs me about western comic is why there's no sports comic? It's a genre full of action and drama.

>>3863562
What about billy the fish?

>>3857925
everyone who is saying they didnt know how to read this is probably retarded. i knew how to read this based on the stairs and the direction he was moving.
i thought it was pretty neat.

>>3857925
Japs win yet again

>>3858077
>cape shit
>selling
anon...

>>3860799
Already you can tell that this is from some chick who takes herself "very" seriously. That's one of my biggest problems with western comic in general, they all take themself so damn serious or they make some retarded meme shit, nothing in between

>>3863707
Its Blutch dude, come on

>>3863707
The artist is Blutch, he's french and he's a dude.

>>3860799
cringe

>>3862071

I believe you didn't think this throug. Calling it priorities doesn't work, as "drawing nice looking stuff" is often a consequence of the larger amount of time given to artists, whatever country they might be from. I don't understand how you can oppose self-expression and clarity, too. Self-expression as a priority just opens to hermetic tendencies.
And exaggerated motions, proportions, expressions.. IS nice looking stuff. And detailled art, if that's what you meant, doesn't per se get in the way of storytelling, it's just a lot more work, so harder to pull off since redrawing for example may not be an option.
You better get to reading more and remember that you only ever get a selection of what's done in another part of the world too.

>>3857851
because most American comic artists suck at design

>>3858077
>some reason
It's like you idiots don't go to school to understand the realism renaissance back in the 1300-1600s. I'm not defending it, but at this point, west vs east is just as retarded to compare as apple to oranges. Their historical backstory has vastly different ways to tell a story with art at the end of the day.

>inb4 muh food analogy
Whatever. Point is, be a weeb somewhere else and fuck off. If Western media didn't work, it wouldn't sale millions for the market it panders too. Just let people enjoy what they want to enjoy.

>>3857925
It could work if the previous page had in the last panel them entering the building and then bleed the page into the next one, but you can see there that there is no bleed.

I'll also add that western comics tend to focus on individually nice illustrations instead of conveying things as they happen. For example a fight in a japanese comic would show every thrown punch in motion, with speedlines, warping, and exaggeration of the characters expressions. A western comic wouldn't relish the fight as much. It might show a punch already landing and with no distortions/speed lines and that's it. With japanese stuff, the panels and pages are part of a greater picture: the scene. With western stuff, especially american capeshit, it's about the individual pictures.

>>3860808
this is neat but god I can't imagine waiting for the next issue.

The big problem with autism-detailed art is that it takes a long ass time to make while IRL your mind may wander to a new project/become dis-interested while your audience will slowly lose interest in your work because there's a 2-3 month gap in between issues.

>>3860851
>>3860853
>>3860855
>>3860857
>>3860858
>>3860860
>>3860861
>>3860872
Based Super Dupondt poster

also pic related, more shitty Western comic art with no sense of movement

>>3860851
>>3860853
>>3860855
>>3860857
>>3860858
>>3860860
>>3860861
>>3860872
Based Super Dupont poster

also pic related, more shitty Western comic art with no sense of movement

>>3864248
>>3857851
Yeah it's sad how Western comic artists are utterly incapable of depicting movement in their art.

>this whole thread
This place is infested with weebs. Good god almighty.

>>3864040
>>3864769
When people say Western comics, they inevitably mean capeshit/American. Eurocomics are their own classification and generally acknowledged to be on a higher level.

>sale [sic] millions

Might want to check those monthly sales figures, buddy. All but the five best-selling capeshit comics struggle to shift more than 50,000 copies worldwide - and that’s copies sold to retailers, not actual numbers on how many are really bought by customers.

>>3864807
western is a different word from american/capeshit. Use american/capeshit and maybe you won't get shit on for being an illiterate dickhead. Unless you're a secret dadaist and you really really meant clam comics.

>>3864776
To be fair, manga is a gigantic industry compared to Western comics (Euro included) and the people in it are definitely know their craft. Of course people are going to talk about manga.

>>3865215
Euro comics are HUGE. Way bigger than capeshit. Pretty much as big as manga.

>>3865411
Not really. It's always Asterix, Lucky Luke, Titeuf, Tintin, etc.
In Italy the vast majority of copies sold is Tex and it's bought by 50yos. There is the occasional boom like Zerocalcare but it's usually a big exception. It's a larger market than capeshit but it's very static.

>western comic thread
>no mention of the virtuoso of the craft
Pathetic

>>3864776
FUCK OFF newfag, you're on weeb central.

>>3865459
Fuck zerocalcare

>>3865153
Fuck off, you autistic pedant.

>>3865511
Manga can't possibly compete with such absolute peak mastery of sophistication

different strokes for different folks

>>3857925
I kinda like the idea of having the stairs be the edge of a panel, I like that kinda playing around but like the million other people said how the fuck do you read this

>>3866338
You admitted yourself to using western despite knowing you meant capeshit. Plenty of people told you directly and indirectly that they took western as europe and america, that is, what western means. Go die in a ditch, moron.

>>3858344
This is some rock solid bait
Gj

>>3867802
sauce?

>>3868025
it's richard corben. I took it from the first number of metal hurlant, from 75. The short itself is from 71 and is called C-dopey

Capeshit can't even dream of this level of fluidity and action. capeshit artists' inability to warp, distort, convey emotion, and be expressive hold down the medium. They don't think about the big picture, they only worry about individual illustrations that happen to be in the same book, not a complete comic.

>>3862637
>not using the visual medium to most convey things.
Go read a regular book then

>>3864776
You mean this whole website you're on right? + You voluntarily clicked on a thread discussing the skills of manga artists over the wet fart that is the western comic industry you nigger.

>>3860829
Source pls

>>3868981
Beautiful Darkness. It's a quick read and really great so lemme spoonfeed you.
https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Beautiful-Darkness

>>3868987
Thx brother

Other than moebius what other english translated french comics should i read?

>>3869071
Blueberry
Thorgal
XIII
Valélrian & Laureline
Quest for the Time Bird
Nikopol Trilogy
Largo Winch
Jerome K. Jerome Bloche (only one or two albums translated sadly)
Asterix
Lucky Luke
anything by Jacques Tardi
Jerome Moucherot (Jerome Katzmeier in English, only one volume translated I think)
Mélusine
Alix

Assuming you meant Franco-Belgian but for the sake of autism put the Belgian ones by themselves:
Obscure Cities
Bernard Prince
Rork
Tintin
Spirou
Gaston Lagaffe (Goomer Goof in English for some retarded reason)
Blake & Mortimer (if it's your thing)

>>3869087
Thanks. I've already seen Blueberry it's by Moebius right? Good evening

>>3869198
It's by Jean Giraud :^)

>>3867802
Fuck I love early Corben.

As for western comics, I just finished this today, Argentinian artist in Euro format. Amazing art and story.

>>3869087
>>3869071
>no Olivier Ledroit
>no Requiem
this is a story about a nazi going to hell and becoming a vampire
why I never ever see it on this board

>>3869302
I only put stuff on the list that I've read, and I haven't read Black Moon Chronicles or Requiem Chevalier Vampire.

This is also why it's mostly old stuff, because I haven't really kept up with what's come out recently. I've been wanting to pick up pic related tho so maybe I'll do that.

>>3857925
This is unironically good.

>>3860978
that's a very rad artwork on that comic

>>3869349
No it isn't. And many people have already explained why.

>>3869392

>>3869394

>>3869398

>>3869399

>>3869400

>>3869404

>>3869405

>>3869406

>>3869407
I love Blacksad so much. I feel like its a lot a better than most capeshit because it's drawn by a guy with an actual background in animation, so it has much clearer action and feels a lot less busy and cluttered than a lot of American comics without sacrificing detail.
Too bad it takes so long to get drawn.

>>3869406
this is awful

>>3857925
>*smacks lips*
>Ain't got to be this way
>I ain't no threat to Cain
>He ain't my business

>>3869406
Fucking why. WHY would you panel your comic like this? For what purpose? Why do capeshit artists insist on jumping the gun with paneling despite not even being competent in it in the first place? If they could convey action and emotion better, they wouldn't have to resort to fucking with the paneling.

>>3869467
it's for literal retards. they do this because it works. low IQ capefags think it's clever and amazing.

>>3869467
to be honest it almost works, except for the second line

>>3869087

Such a boring list, it's like people never evolve and art is dead after a certain period. You're all nostalgiafags.

>>3869488
Those are all classics, for sure.
Feel free to add some fresh content

>>3869495
I can't because I don't know much about euro comics but things look the same as in music m, movies or manga where I know a bit more.

>>3869406
yiiikes

>>3869488
Well he did ask for a list of stuff that's been translated into English which limits the pool a bit, since there's a very heavy bias towards translating established classics over new stuff. I remember pic related being pretty decent, though. I used to keep up and read scanlations of stuff but not a lot sticks out in my memory and I haven't followed comics in probably over a decade. The recent Boucq/Jodorowsky collaboration looks good too, but the list is limited to just what I've read.

Also speaking of my boring shitty taste I forgot to put Anita Bomba on the list..

>>3857925
I for one like it.

Look at this shit
Jesus

>>3867802
Nice comic from 30 years ago. Please point to anything Western like this published today, cunt.

What's the general consensus on Donald Duck comics around here? I grew up reading them and there's a lot of them that flow pretty nicely.

>>3870191
it's comfy, not high quality, but comfy.

>>3870152
>>3860795
>>3860799
>>3860808
>>3860829
>>3869407
etc.
dumb piece of shit

>>3870152
https://www.bedetheque.com/
I don't know French but you can see there's a healthy market that's very vast in genres and styles. This was on the landing page right away.

>>3860829
oh! she's in a little paper boat that's so cute

>>3870822
Whats this comic called?

>>3860996
Your eyes need to lift more, this looks great to me.

>>3870930
P.T.S.D. by Guillaume Singelin

>>3868850
based opmchad

>>3857925
>hating on Tradd Moore
Cringe

>>3857925

>>3857925
Is you dorm think this is the coolest shit, you can get the fuck out. Keep in mind a few years ago he was a no name deviantartist

>>3870937
it's just alternating low angle and high angle, the close ups don't make sense and it's even worse with the dialogues, not to mention those three panels block the entire page for nothing, etc. It's not out of proportion, acid hue, webcomic weight of line type of bad, but it's there on the compositions

>>3866789
I think it’s supposed to be one long panel and they are on an escherianesque staircase

>>3857925
>/ic/ thinks this is too complex of a composition to interpret properly

Ok, now I KNOW I share this board with certified idiots.

>>3871618
I like the lineart but the coloring is kinda ugly.

>>3871615
This. Even based KJG gave him the thumbs up.

>>3871970
Panel flow matters.

>>3871615
>>3872011
That page is objectively a mess.

>>3858344
>Subverts expectations
Epic bait. Fucking ace. I almost replied.

>>3870808
>Implying any of these are anywhere close to the quality of classic Heavy Metal
>Half of them are anime/manga inspired

LMAO'ing at your life.

>>3870822
Again, people don't think of European comics when "Western" is mentioned. To say nothing of the fact this is clearly inspired by Japanese media.

>>3860978
I looked this up and the artist is Chinese https://characterdesignreferences.com/artist-of-the-week-8/shang-xiao

>>3858344
Holy shit, the reach

>>3876242
>I almost replied.
But you did reply

>>3857851
Manga=French Comics>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Capeshit

>>3872011
KJG is a good technician, not a greta artist or comic book author.
Tbh I was impressed at first with his drawing but now I just see empty technicality and messy creative output. It's the equivalent of 350 bpm gflashy uitar solos.

>>3857851
Western artsts fell for the "realism" meme

Japs understand that cuteness + dynamism beats realism any day of the week

>>3858342
It is not precisely convoluted, the author totally missed any possible intuitive way of defining the direction and origin of the left scene panel. Not even the technique is to blame, it was either that we are missing the previous panel or the very decision of an orthogonal background and movement for what was supposed to be a dynamic in motion, action scene under a single panel; all this being said because this is not the first comic to implement such technique, and that others that have done so, manage to be more conveying.

Magical Girl Spec-Ops Asuka is a manga that does some pretty readable and nicely flowing action sequences. The mangaka seems to have done some research into martial arts.

>>3878547
>It's the equivalent of 350 bpm gflashy uitar solos.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOmoUXHgePs

just have fun bitch!!!

>>3857925
this is the coolest fucking comic page i've ever seen in my life holy SHIT

>>3859402
That’s because in >>3859396, your eye starts at the upper right, go down the right page, and you’re led directly into the left page where the composition draws your eye back up the steps.

>>3857925 starts from the bottom without giving the reader a sign they should start there. Your eye tries to read left to right, the right to left, then you realize it goes bottom to top. Maybe it could be more readable in context? But as is, it’s an absolute mess. The bottom up portion in this also shows the same characters in various states of action, while in the manga it’s just one scene designed to draw your eye bottom up.

>>3881416
Ok taking another look at >>3857925 and I get how to read the page a lot better. Now I really want to see what comes before, there’s a chance it’s not as bad as it looks out of context.

>>3876668
>Again, people don't think of European comics when "Western" is mentioned.
"Western" implies Europe.
Don't use this term if you only mean America.
This discussion is still retarded because you don't even mean American comics but only capes.

>"Let's compare all comics produced by Asia to a single genre!"

>>3857851
If your talking exclusively about superhero comics I'd wager a lot of it comes from them being writer driven as opposed to artist driven.

>>3860795
No ones talking about france when they say the west.

>>3857925
Compare this to a Gianni De Luca's comics, then tell me if you had the same struggle reading them.

>>3883097
This.

>>3869087
Wow, you replied. Thanks!

>>3857925
this could be a cool idea if the characters suddenly moved downwards and then up and the page's panel layout kinda made you do a U to follow them. but this genius over here goes with a fucking ∩ instead, god almighty what the fuck was he thinking. the only rationalization is that the page prior gives at least some context

>>3857925
I still don't understand what the fuck is going on with the beams. Sometimes they shoot off in a curve, sometimes they ricochet off the walls, in the bottom is the other character also shooting when they enter the door or is the beam shot by the black guy on the second flight of stairs just ricocheting down into the door? Why is one of the beams curving in a spiral up the staircase? Is the guy in white getting wounded by a beam in the second flight of stairs? Is the guy in white doing something with his own beam to deflect the black guy's beam in the second to last flight of stairs? Why doe the black guy's foot and the white guy's libs have a white halo in certain points? What's with the white footprints in the air? Why does the beam end around the white guy's feet in a halo as well?

Also the first few times I read this I was so confused I read this as a manga, starting from the top right and going down then going up from the bottom. They I realized that it's an inverted U shape.

>>3883102
wow that looks nice; what is it, anon

>>3885160
One of gianni de Luca's comics, he is remarkably known for the way a single panel has multiple scenes.

>>3857851
First of all, thats Oda-sensei a master among the masters of manga so that movement is special to him and it surpasses western and Japanese comics. Theres a reason why one piece is number one

>>3881304
>One panel has her legs wrapping around the other girl facing her
>Somehow she flips 180 and her legs phase through the other girl as well?
>Flips under her for a suplex
I had to double take half of those panels

This is a real comic.

>>3885897
kek that was great

Anime, Manga and Japanese videogames are a pure apolitical entertainment media.

The japs don't care about the social commentary, overarching narrative or any of the PC shit. The media exists solely for fun and is judged solely on it's fun value.

Meanwhile the west has turned everything into a political vehicle shavilng off the fun to make room for the propaganda message until there's no fun or artists value left.

The Japanese dont fire great artists for being a wrongthinker, the Japanese don't hire useless unskilled artists to fill the token divercity quota, the Japanese don't write their stories around a political message, they have a meritocracy out there while the west had intersectional feminism.

Which is why they have great quality entertainment and you have aids.

American comics actually stem from early political tracts and not the tradition of Art in continental Europe.

>>3868850
this makes me think, what if the best way to make a comic is to just flesh out what would be keyframes in animation? maybe that’s obvious but it’s what going on in that gif, and you don’t see that in capeshit. maybe that’s because newer capeshit comics are meant to be read like a book or a live action movie, while the focus of manga is animation? does that sound right?

>>3885921
It's actually that simple, you draw the keyframes.
Look at Bone by Jeff Smith, he's an animator and you can clearly see that he uses the analog of keyframes to describe action

>>3885925
>>3885921
The reason why capeshit looks so terrible and stiff is because capeshit artists can't draw from imagination
>>3867536
>>3867537
You need to be able to draw stuff from imagination to push things and create movement. Capeshit artists just trace 3D models, capefags see it's accurate and they think it's great.
Capefags think Alex Ross is the best artist ever

>>3885930
Western Art is heavily founded on associative logic so the fact that Ross was able to cross check Time Magazine, superhero comics and European portraiture was a big thing at the time, it was probably closer to collage art than action comics. And aside from the group shots there is some action in Kingdom Come.

Even Phoenix's JOKER is quoting from The Man Who Laughs, Detective Comics, Taxi Driver, and The Killing Joke. It's a lot to throw in a blender.

>>3885944
What does that have to do with the dynamism and flow of comics

>>3881304
I like it but it is confusing because the 2 characters are scantly clad in the which can be confusing when one overlaps with the other. Escpecially in both suplex panels

I think the big problem with US comics is that the majority of cape artists don't flow. They either go in house style(The basic style of the publishing company), repeat wally wood's techniques, or set up bland panels. What makes it worse is that the artist has to interact with the writer, and if its a crappy/unimaginative writer, which a high percentage of writers of the big two(DC/Marvel) are,, the writer will set up an action sequence which
>Character A hits Character B
>Then B kicks A and starts to monologue for two to three panels
>Then A Talks for a panel, then A jumps and kicks B into a wall while explaining why A kicked B into that wall
>Then theres an in thought monologue of Character A for 3 pages
>And Finally, a one panel page revealing a cliff hanger twist

Wednesday Comics experimented in >>3869406, but because it's a dialogue heavy sequence, it stops dead in it's track once Barry gets his arm stuck in the pole. Sometimes, specifically in American kids comics, if a sequence is confusing, the writer/editor will tell the artist to re-do the sequence.

I feel like pic related is a good example of an artist and writer interacting with one another. And the panels can be used as arrows to represent the scene progression

>>3886296
You can't get innovation from derivative mixtures.

>>3887029
one has white hair done up in two braids, the other has long black hair.
its not that confusing.
>>3887043
you can innovate off of derivative material, but if you're just recycling old themes and make your characters talk entirely in quotes and references, that definitely doesn't do any favors.

>>3887077
Not the characters, literally when their joints intersect and one character overlaps the other, I have to look real close to what's happening. In the sequence, there are two suplexes that I had to look and see how it happened.& when the long haired character had her prostetics break, I didn't understand how it happened. I don't think a reader should have to double take whats going on in a comic.It's not the fault of the artist but the fault of whoever decided to stack each page from top to bottom

>>3860808
Reminds me of that marvel artist that traced iron man getting heart attack and old woman throwing brick

>>3887087
ah, i see what you're getting at

>>3887089
Good ol' Greg.

>>3857851
Maybe just maybe the movement is saved for the clever spots where it is really needed instead of having fucking one piece funky anatomy on every single piece even when eating a piece of bread. The amount of weebs in here, jesus christ.

>>3887095
Oooh, a retard.

>>3887102
Offended weeb

>>3887104
Least I'm not the dumb ass who can't even read what the OP said.

>>3887093
"I-it's just for reference"

>>3887119
Not like there haven't been Japanese artists caught tracing, because there have, but at least they try to cover it up with stylization.

>>3887125
For sure, anon. And I absolutely do not defend those Japanese artists either. Although stylization does help it not look like the stiff, uncanny shit Greg does.

>>3887125
I love the strabismus

this thread is fun

y'all would hate old school howard chaykin

>>3887161
>y'all
please stop appropriating white southern culture, thanks.
also, no, that looks great, because the art is great.
that is not what OP is bitching about, stop being a disingenuous faggot.

>>3887095
>maybe the movement is saved for the clever spots where it is really needed
fucking kek, delusional capefags are the best

>>3885900
Please tell me that pic is a fucking edit.

>>3885900
Nah

>>3887301
I live in the ozarks, anon; I thought about posting his more recent work (which is actually terrible) but decided no to.

>>3857851
western audience find anime too goofy