/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>3749155
You need to train your minds eye.
Can you visualize shapes in mid air?

>>3749160
You mean like vague perspective? Like a triangle with the tip angled towards me?

Basically the main issue is that to me it seems like you are trying to memorize symbols.
You are creating a more advanced symbol library in your head, but it is still the same as a child trying to draw the same eyes on all characters.
You need to basically create a 3d model in your head and visualize it actually on paper, like hologram projection.
This is the most important skill together with the motor functions and hand eye coordination that will mechanically develop the more you draw.

>>3749165
When you look on the sky, can you imagine a spinning 3d shape? Like can you see shapes?

>>3749160
I can't visualize anything, is that a problem :(

>>3749171
You need to train your minds eye, without it you will literally never become an actually good artist.
Force yourself to visualize stuff.

>>3749168
Yes, I can with simple forms but if I had to imagine a sphere in space with a cloth over it I can't visualize the cloth. I'm not symbol drawing exclusively.

>>3749174
how you do that :( help pls

>>3749175
Break down cloth into simpler planes, and practice.
Keep breaking it down until you will eventually understand how cloth works.

>>3749187
If you already understand what visualization is, you need to start deconstruction.
You need to learn how to break down complex shapes into ugly, simple shapes that you do understand.
Practice that.
Once you can visualize that break it down more.
Practice that.
Repeat.
Eventually your visualization will evolve into a more complex one.
It is a long process of deconstruction.

>>3749187
>>3749194
Anon it's really that simple and also that time consuming.
You are literally training your brain to see in 3d, first by seeing big polygons and then by increasing the polycount, so to say.

>>3749194
thank you

Here's a super quick example, sorry for the shitty linework but I tried to indicate my thought process using red.

Am I not seeing in 3d properly?

>>3749205
this shows it more maybe

>>3749205
Do you understand what is behind the head?
I am not joking when I say that literally drawing boxes in perspective in 3d space might be the most seminal exercise to understand form.

>>3749219
You see shape partially but it is distorted.
It feels like instead of trying to understand the shape you want to draw, you are fitting the shape of the reference to the shapes you are already used to.
You are doing the reverse of a breakdown.

>>3749155
>It seems like the sketch would take hours and lots of reference but artists shit these out in minutes

It seems because it is.
If artists shit out these in minutes that's because they already drew something like that and they can draw from their memory.
The artist is samuelyounart, look how many time he had painted girl like this.

Use reference, don't think too much about time.

>>3749236
Using only reference without understanding form will turn you into a xerox machine.

So is this not how the facial forms work?
Is it the bad perspective that's the problem or simplification of forms?

>>3749246
I think you don't get it.
You are not trying to see how the forms relate to each other, you are drawing planes in the vacum.
I simply can not explain it, I think you just should practice fundamentals and it will click eventually anon.
Don't rush, just practice as much as you can, stress your mind to see the shapes behind the lines as hard as you can.

Here's how you can train your brain to see 3d forms.
1st) Buy a box of basic wooden forms(cubes,prisms,cylinders, etc.)
2nd) Pick any one form and draw it in many different angles. Try to also draw the inside of that form.
3rd) Rinse and repeat. Once you're comfortable with drawing any one form, try combining some forms and challenge yourself on constructing with these forms.

Once you train yourself enough, you'll gain the skills of being able to see these forms in reality and you'll gain the confidence to use this to draw whatever you want.

>>3749315
What about the transition from complex forms to appealing designs?

Pic related

Not very visually appealing.

>>3749338
That's a matter of taste after that, developing design and taste has more to do with your internal qualities than with the raw skill of visualization.

>>3749338
>>3749338
it's not supposed to be appealing, it's a teaching textbook.

>>3749347
>>3749351
So the rest is just rendering and stylistic choices?

>>3749364
The rest is your internal creativity, it can't be taught directly, only experienced through observation, interpretation and experimentation.
Learning fundamentals and actually becoming a creative and interesting artist is two different things.

>>3749251
>I think you just should practice fundamentals and it will click eventually anon
wow big help

>>3749338
Think of what I said regarding the forms as the 1st half of the process. Once you've establish the forms as a basic guideline, the next step is to change and add to these forms according to what you interpret or wish to change. And continue on from there. Take this sketch as an example, I usually like to use a colored pencil to establish the basic forms and then transistion to pen or pencil once Im comfortable with what I got and decide to work with the forms I established.
1)The head I construct with a sphere for the cranium, cube for bottom jaw/head, cylinder for neck and wide top of cube for shoulders.
2)Once thats established I switch to pen and work onward with drawing what I want. This is the part where many artist diverge because we all have different ways of interpreting things but the basic forms will forever be there.

>>3749383
There is literally no way to help you if your mind can't fucking perceive in 3d, the best anyone can tell you is to keep fucking trying and forcing your brain to visualize until it clicks.
There is nothing else, if you have so little talent that you literally can not fucking visualize a piece of cloth after years of practice, you might be a lost cause.

>>3749383
People can't lead you through every single small step, moron. You want them to draw for you too?

>>3749383
NGMI

>>3749155
I draw using this method (construction only and mostly imagination, no direct copying). It's very satisfying but really hard to do anon. You have to only use reference as, well, reference to get the jist of the rotation / position in space of what you want to draw, but when you actually draw the thing you do it constructively from imagination. If you train yourself to exclusively think of stuff as broken down sets of shapes / raw anatomy and draw the mechanics of things e.g. you understand how a bicycle works in order to draw it, you will be able to draw shit from imagination freely, maybe using just a perspective grid as an aid.
Same goes with drapery really, you just practice cloth with different tension points until you have a general understanding of how it works, then when the creases happen on the body you will be able to put them into place.

However be aware that doing this will make things 1000x more difficult than just copying reference like everyone does and IN MY OPINION after trying for many many years you need a certain type of talent, like a really good aptitude for spatial visualization and photographic memory, to pull it off on a level like pic related.
Yes, he draws constructively and draws routinely on this level with no reference.

>>3749390
This is certainly not true. The case here has absolute nothing to do with whatever this visualization stuff that you're talking about it.

OP your real problems are as follows, and these sub divide into more issues

1- You've lead yourself onto this wild goose chase question which is also showing you actually have no idea how to improve in general. You're kind of overthinking it. This is a nonsensical question and wasting any time on it will give you nothing but nonsense. So don't listen to ppl who reply to it seriously.

2. You're trying to do this too much by yourself. You're sitting here scratching your head trying to figure this all out when there is an abundance of knowledge out there on the internet. It is EXTREMELY easy in art to get hung up on information that takes you forever to improve if you use it. Or to get lost in so much information and approaches that you just stagnate and don't know what to do.

You have to filter it all out and find out the information you should really be focusing on to improve. And you accomplish this by going out of your way to find the people with the most reputation and skill that are putting out educational content on how to draw in the way you want to draw. You observe their improvement process and what they studied and try to learn how they think when they draw.

2- You are learning things out of order. Once your educational sources are established, you figure out most basic beginner thing you cannot do and you start there and create a step by step logical skill building process. You cannot skip this process. You cannot skip this. It takes intentional study of your weaknesses and removing them through education and practice drawing with that new education to incorporate it to remove those weaknesses.

Finally I want you to make every improvement exercise on something YOU want to draw. Make it fun. Ignore the "white knuckle" try hards. Fun accelerates learning and its addictive to keep practicing fun.

>>3749160
>>3749168
Does it matter if I kind of retreat into my own mind to visualize instead of looking at the air? Like I picture it in my head instead of seeing it in the space in front of me. Should I train myself to do the latter?

>>3749690
You should not do anything you do not like.
But that being said, if you will visualize it as an overlay of real life you will slowly be able to move away from supporting guide lines.
Eventually if you train your irl visualization hard enough you can draw basically without guides because you plan it all in your head and project it on paper already.