/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>3578121
Talent isn't real, every beginner artist starts at the same level. The rest of learning is just your own dedication and time spent drawing.

>>3578121
>Digital art emulating traditional tools was a mistake. Some of the coolest art I've seen came about from the inherent limitations from old school programs.
>Fanart is far too commercialized now. I'm tired of animation students bandwagoning on the latest trends in hopes that Disney will notice them. I prefer embarrassing self indulgent shit straight out of a 7th grader's notebook over this bland ass pandering.
>Zines suck too now for similar reasons.
>Kills me that so many great artists are stuck promoting other people's brands instead of making their own cooler stuff.
>I don't hate most tumblr art.
>You can tell how good a cartoonist is, in particular, by how they stylize Sonic the Hedgehog characters.

>reading/watching guides is stupid
>>3578121
>>Talent is real.
I hardly practice now and I really don't remember grinding in my adolescence so why am I so good, then

>>3578149
obligation pyw faggot

>>3578136
>every beginner artist starts at the same level
yes, every grand master of chess also had to learn the game. We were in fact all ignorant babies at one point in time. The point is that some people have certain nack for certain things and learn it a lot faster than others.

A grandmaster in chess at age 13, Magnus Carlsen as an example... Don't you think he felt like a duck in water when he started playing chess with his peers?

Michael Jackson, a superstar since the age of 5. I wonder if he felt like singing was for him when he started? I'm pretty fucking sure he did.

Now, according to your theory, Magnus Carlsen was just as likely to be a motown superstar at age 5, and Michael Jackson would be a chess grandmaster at age 13 if he just "put in the work". ridiculous.

If you believe that, you are in flat earther-tier of denial.

inb4 bait

>>3578136
What if you have aphantasia?

>>3578157
Don't know if I should debunk all this with proof again. Meh, too much work. I love anons like this who put themselves in this mindset.

>>3578160
>Don't know if I should debunk all this with proof again

t.flat earther

>>3578160
>I have proof that you're wrong but meh I'm too lazy to post it
>you're still retarded though

>>3578160
This is the fucking internet buddy, everyone has tons of proof to back up their bullshit delusions. This is the age when the phrase "citation needed" is invariably connected to a fucking moron.

>>3578157

Michael and Magnus stand on a league 99% of their peers in their respective fields have never and will never touch. Some of us just want to be able to feed ourselves through art not become the next fucking Craig Mullins, reaching a professional level doesn't require stars to align.

>>3578172
The extremes show the trend.

>>3578155
2hr sesh, coulda done a cleaner job on the under-boob shading

>>3578186
>2 hours
>On a sketch
>Why has God given me all this talent?
Neck yourself or treat your autism, you arrogant fuck.

>>3578121
>Those 10hr grind every day routines are bullshit
>You can become a pro training at your own pace, being an 18yo straight out of HighSchool who doesn't know what to do with his life, or a 70yo granny that doesn't know what to do with her life
>In the end dedication, networking and a little bit of luck will always be better than natural talent. At anything.

>>3578186
tfw no pencil sketch tummy gf

>>3578192
>>2 hours
>>On a sketch
I work in bursts dude what kinda art do you make

Trying to think of some opinions that would be unpopular on /ic/ so
>Studying fundamentals doesn't have to adhere to drawing realism
>"Grinding" is useless, art isn't an RPG where you just draw the same shit over and over and suddenly you can draw anything from imagination(Less of an opinion and more of a misunderstanding /beg/s make)
>Using analog or digital mediums doesn't make a difference when you're studying/practicing- just choose what you like to use and what medium you imagine you'll be using more in your career
>Anyone who says anime is a trend or you can't make a career drawing anime is braindead or just hates anything non-western
>After spending a year on /ic/ i now legitimately suspect most of /ic/ doesn't draw

>>3578121
>>Talent is real.
And how do you know you have it?

>>3578199
Needing two hours to do a sketch and implying you wasn't even trying or some shit.
My point is that if you need two houra to do something like that, maybe you're not so great to brag after all.

But then again, I don't know your life situation, maybe you really need to magnify yourself on an anonymous board to overcompensate for your low steem.
Nice belly tho, I dig it.

>>3578186
Woah so this is talent, am i talent all along then? I'm not shit?

>>3578203
post your art loser faggot it's friday night and we're both here so DO IT you autist

>>3578205
2 hours sesh on paint, with fingers, being beaten half to death by russian mercenaries, with a opera singer screaming on my ear, and hands tied behind my back coulda done a cleaner job on the under-boob shading.

That's how much of a faggot you sound. Retard.

>>3578157
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L%C3%A1szl%C3%B3_Polg%C3%A1r

>psychologist raised 3 chess prodigies, 2 to be the first and 2nd best women chess players in the world.

>at ages 14 and 15 both of them we're already highly skilled and beat grand masters.

please tell me how they were born with talent. All these "talented" people have abilities of liking what they do, good instructors, and know how to work hard to get better. That's what "talent" is.

>>3578210
wow you're mad you've refused to post actual work so I assume you suck and are resentful of people who don't practice as much as you but still put out better work

>>3578214
Yeah sure, that's exactly why. 97% of thia board can do better than you and me. You don't see me going to every poat talking shit. My problem ia you poating /beg/ level shit and till thinking you're good.

I'll repeat myself, neck yourself or treat your autism.

>>3578213
good memories and learning capability help them learn faster and they are born with them
sure both of that things can be train but talented people have an edge
you think grand masters in chess don't like doing what they do, and don't work hard ?

>>3578219
Also fuck phone. I'm hitting S not A

>>3578221
so talent is just learning capability? so it doesn't matter what field you go into or whatever, if you have good learning capability you can be a genius in whatever?

>you think grand masters in chess don't like doing what they do, and don't work hard ?

I never said this? I said if you work hard and enjoy what you're doing and want to become great that's what will make you a grandmaster. not "talent".

>>3578136
because everyone works hard doesn't mean everyone will come to the same conclusion.
I've seen people at this for 10+years working hardcore, but their stuff is so tasteless, as
generic,default, forgettable as can be, they don't get many likes on their work, it lacks passion,
taste, personality and looks on par with someone who's on their 1st or 2nd year.

Dave Rapoza, that guy that became one of the best in 2 years, had cool art before he was good. His work had personality, style and flair,check it out on his conceptart sketchbook.

I put in 5 hours on average over the last 3 years, and lately I'm realizing my art is tasteless, lazy, I have nothing to say or actually care to say, at the very least I am not talented because I have no passion for this, I just wanted to be good at something and I won't be chosen over someone who loves this more than me.

I enjoyed drawing, but in the end my drawings weren't for show or money, they were just for me.

Western art is one big lie told to maintain European superiority. It is in debt to the lens, camera obscura, camera Lucinda, grids, tracing paper, photography and light boxes. Without this shit, western art would be stuck in the Middle Ages. Very few classical artists drew well. Black artists are actually superior draughtsmen and are the ones with raw talent. White people can not draw. Just look at the draw thread. Cheaters.

>>3578213
>hey guys I am a chess player and a chess teacher and I trained my girls to be really good in chess since they were newborn, guess what guys, they're really good at chess now.

who the fuck would say that disproves the talent of Mozart, writing symphonies at age 5, you ridiculous cunt. Talent is a fact, but if you practice a lot and fucking grow up with a chess teacher that tries to make you the best all your life, you can get pretty damn good at a lot of things.

But it doesn't disprove talent! try harder brainlet. comes in here with one fucking chess playing father training his daughters in chess fucking LOL. Have any anecdotes to go with that?

>>3578233
You think Magnus Carlsen, a grandmaster at chess at age 13, just was extraordinarliy dedicated? So dedicated he beat other extremely hard working chess players working all their life to become a grand master and he just happens to cram all that hard work into his first 13 years of life? IDIOT.

>>3578241
he wasn't a chess player before having his children. He chose to teach them chess because it was a simple game to learn and the pieces were like toys. He didn't have background in chess before his decision to make chess prodigies. Talent is an natural, innate ability which this guy or his daughters didn't have

>>3578243
yes, I do. Passion and hard work is what makes you great. and passion is not a talent.

>>3578121
Agreed, talent is def real. The literal only way for it to not be is if you think everyone is born exactly the same.

>>3578237
Based niggastrat BTFOing the old masters and proving the superiority of the BLACK man with his breathtaking art.

>>3578256
None of y’all here are even better than me. Today blacks control the arts, music, dance and film.

No cracker artist can get diss gud

>>3578245
"He has written well-known chess books such as Chess: 5334 Problems, Combinations, and Games and Reform Chess, a survey of chess variants."

>>3578247
why isn't passion talent?

passion is seemingly a random thing that makes you good at stuff because you want to do it all the time, why isn't that talent?

>>3578252
this. But talent deniers have very poor deductive skills so they will never understand how aptitude and individual differences are the exact same thing.

The black autist is proof of talent

>>3578275
Passion is an effect of your environment/health/social standings/etc. there are plenty of artists out there who lose passion after becoming big because of the shift in their life. And any person can become passionate about anything, I could work in a pizza place and become passionate about flying doughs in the air and catching them.

>>3578271
those books were published in the past 20 years, guess how old his daughters are now? in their 40s.

>>3578241
>>3578121

Read the book PEAK by Anders Ericsson.

>>3578283
Does it matter? He clearly has an aptitude for chess.
>>3578282
Still don't see how passion can't be involved in talent. If you start at a pizza place and develop a passion for flying dough, spending all your time with the dough and getting really good at it, I'd sa

you know what, I bet I'd be better than 99% of this thread in dough handling if we were given a week to practice. I could walk out the door right now and I bet I'd be better than 10 random people at dough handling even if I've never done it before. Cause I've always been good with my hand eye coordination. why? I have no idea. My brother in law is not a sports guy at all, he plays death metal, but during high school he discovered he's really good at throwing tennis balls. I suck at throwing tennis balls. People are different, and skills and aptitudes are not equally dispersed among the population, it's crazy to believe that. The variance is enormous. appreciate the fact that people are different ffs. That's real diversity.

>>3578296
yeah, after 20-30 years of dedicating his life on teaching his daughters chess he makes a couple books. clearly an aptitude

>Nothing justifies paying millions for art other than money laundering and maybe rare older works

>Fan art isn't art
>A character design is not art, but can be part of a piece of art.
>most work on the internet is illustration, not art
>if you draw a character on a blank background with no action other than "pose" you didn't even make an illustration.

>>3578136
I think its more like 80% hard work 20% innate ability. Brains can be very different from person to person to gender or race. It makes sense that some peoples brain make up will be better at spatial reasoning or better at visual memory.

>>3578121
Talent is real, but in 99,9999% of all cases it's a bad thing.

Literally every single person I've met with talent have been spoiled by it to the point where they think they don't have to put down the effort. And effort always trumps talent. So after a few years they've hardly developed and all the people without talent that put down effort have surpassed them.

Then you have people like KJG that has talent and puts down effort. But they are so few and far between that they hardly even count.

>If i dont like a piece of art at first glance its not good. I dont care if it has a long explanation of what it means or why its important. If it doesnt wow me in the first few seconds it has no value to me.

>A random guy in the street who never draws opinion is just as valid as a professional art critic. No id say their opinion is more important because theyre more honest, they will just say what they like and dont like without considering any of the meaningless fluff that art critics concern themself with

>>3578236
Your post deeply resonates with me, now I'm staring at the ceiling. I always did shitty comics as a kid but they were average kid doodles and I didn't get much better as an adult but I was always known as the drawfag of my classes.

A year ago some girl with a literal Deviantart account got into my class and blew me the fuck away from my throne. She didn't really grind anatomy and perspective but naturally has tons of passion and good enough rendering skills so her artsy ideas look like true art to normalfags. So I decided to hardcore practice fundies to be a proper artist and regain control but I hit the same wall as you; with no real purpose you can't be considered better than someone with more love for this than you.

Nothing I can produce has charm or soul like that girl who breathes and lives to draw and the average people don't even notice flaws unless they are lower than beg tier. Vanishing points, the perspective on an arm or shadows being wrong don't really affect your work if it has a good idea.

>>3578158
Then you're looking for excuses

If you do art only for the prospect of money, you're a retard.

>>3578121
>Talent is real.
it's not unpopular among normies, it's just something people that actually put in the work and get results know it's utter bollocks

>>3578136
Birds are born with the ability to sing.
The chirping sounds they make as babies doesn't lessen how innate their abilities are.

The 'artist' identity is alluring to nihilists that have actually close to zero interest in art. They don't believe in anything, are insufferable, lazy, useless and blame the world for their shortcomings. Being an 'artist' is the most popular camouflage of nihilists and I think it has gotten to a point where they may outnumber people who are actually interested in making art.

>>3578121
>If you try hard enough you'll get there.

>>3578186
LMAO
thanks for the laugh
you are dogshit brah

>>3578186
2 hours is a long time for this. this post was pretty embarrassing.

talent is just a lazy excuse for shitty artists to be shitty

>>3578121
w2c those cute crab pen holders??

>>3578902
talent is real, but you can also be great if you have passion.

I have seen people with talent being very good and learinng very fast from the start, and I've seen people with no talent but with an extreme passion working their way into greatness on pure determination.

saying talent isn't real let's you believe that it is up to you if you want to be good or not, and that everyone that "makes it" has put a questionable amount of effort into it.

talent is an obvious fact, but hard work and passion will also do the trick.

so, believeing only talent is real is an excuse, saying only hard work is real is also an excuse.

I think this board is way to critical about art in general.

I think its great to always want to grow and improve as an artist. However, a lot of people here seem to think that art doesn't have any worth if its not drawn by a professional. Drawing for fun seems to be scorned in favor of hard, tedious practice. Which might be better for improving but I don't think its better for actually enjoying the creative process. If you do nothing but draw 500 boxes a day you're probably gonna burn out fast.

There are lots of ways to have fun with art even when you suck at it.

>>3578136
You need talent to learn efficiently.

>>3578192
>>3578204
>>3578893
>>3578899
I love this board so much

>>3578930
totally agree. This is not the place to come to if you want to share thoughts about art, not by a long shot. I come here for the technical knowledge exclusively, there is hardly any creativity going on here.

The problem is with the general mindset of the people that come here, being very categorical and logical, they like to break down everything to their basic principles, i.e fundamentals, in order to "understand" drawing.

Sometimes it seems like inspiration and creativity have no place in this board because they are abstract concepts, and you can't logically break them down. I think 80% of /ic/ people are even totally oblivious to their existence.

Also, denying talent is a way to exclude an arbitrary factor outside of their control.

I need tips to communities where inspiration and creativity is the main focus.

>>3578121
Of course talent exists, but talent is not equal to skill.
Talent, as I see it, is having a modern V8 engine in your head instead of 20 horses.
The thing is tho, if the engine never starts, the horses win by default.
No successful artist or grand master has gotten where they are through talent. If you don't believe me, ask any of them if you get the chance, but I'll just spoil what they're gonna say for sake of convenience
>I got to where I am through hours and hours of hard work and showing up to draw everyday no matter the mood

There you go, this is how you beat talent.

lmao the people undermining talent are uncreative textbook clones

>>3578186
Nice, dont stop posting your work anon, you're the reason this board is not entirelly shit by now.

>>3578186
Unironically better than anything I could do...

>>3578213
>be connected in the world of chess
>can recognize good players from bad
Ain't hard to figure out.

>>3578213
The fact that you can raise some one to be good at something doesn't disprove the existence of talent. Because there are people who become good at it without being raised from birth, and people who despite a lot of effort never improve.

>>3579356
>>3579360
okay anons, then what exactly is talent and how does it fundamentally help certain individuals over other individuals?

>people can be born with physical differences, with the ones on the higher extreme of height are more likely to be in the NBA
>people can be born with intelligence differences, you got dumb as brick niggers in africa and physics geniuses changing the world
>but talent, another aspect derived from IQ (or at least has to do with your brain) doesn't exist

i'm a believer when it comes to pure talent because i have a friend who is basically an idiot savant when it comes to drawing. we're close and i've watched him draw several times. the other day i asked him how he got so good, how he learned construction/perspective, if he's ever done studies and he was just like "idk i just think of stuff and i draw it". couldn't explain any of the fundamental concepts that he obviously has understanding of, never took an art class or read any of the books, he just practices and is good, and always has been.

>>3579444
I have a friend who's like that as well. A complete auto-didact who basically never studied anatomy or any fundamentals. In the most literal sense of the phrase he just drew and got to a ridiculously high level of skill by the time I met him at art school. He's shown me the evolution of his art and it's just a succession of illustrations and drawings that he felt like drawing each one improving slightly over the one before it. He's the same with music, never studied notes or scales but is very skilled at writing it.

>>3579404
Talent does exist, as a measure of cognitive abilities, ability to learn and apply concepts, memory, etc.
We all start at 0 for artistic skill, but some learn faster than others.

>>3578139
>Some of the coolest art I've seen came about from the inherent limitations from old school programs.
I want to see examples.

>>3578200
>>After spending a year on /ic/ i now legitimately suspect most of /ic/ doesn't draw
Been here for 4 and I know for a fact most people who give crits on here are Solar Sands tier beginners with a big head.

>>3578243
Talent is just hard work applied at an incredibly young age. It LOOKS like people are born with it, but Magnus Carlseen was born into a family of intelligent people, and chess shares a lot of similarities to the kind of problem solving encountered in IT and Engineering, both of which his parents were.

He was dedicated because his parents helped him be dedicated as a little baby, that's what talent is. You can't see that, because you're an idealistic fool who believes in pseudo-science and fairy tails. Eat my ass.

>>3579500
Your brain is like a muscle anon, you can always improve your cognitive abilities, memory, learning capabilities. That's not talent.

>>3579576
>believes pseudo-science
I didn't read about the existence of talent, you imbecile, I've seen it several times in real life, most people have like
>>3579444
>>3579499
It's actually very common to know somebody with a talent for something. Some people are great singers, some great impressionists I mean what planet are you people on?

Have you been locked up in your basement your whole life? If you have been around people, you would have seen this shit many times christ...

Think about it, YOU are the ones that need to EXPLAIN the phenomenon, everyone else takes it for what it is, individual differences and freak skills. but you have to rationalize it and deconstruct it "well... his father was very strict and pushed him so much so he kind of just became the best chess player, the most common game in the history of the world, by age 13.. haha, so I could do that too, if I really wanted to..."

Could any of you talent deniers say you could be a motown superstar singer at age 5 if Michael Jacksons dad was your dad? Or grandmaster at age 13 if you grew up in Carlsens family? GET REAL.

>>3579585
why does every professional artist say they got to that level by working hard and being dedicated to it everyday? Why do they say talent isn't a factor or even real? Are all the pros just lying to us to get quick bucks? get real anon

>>3579590
Because they are raised with good work ethics where hard work is promoted. Maybe they want people to do what they love and not just say "you know, I guess I just have a talent for this and you probably have to work extremely hard if you want to get to where I am"

maybe they don't want to feel special and elevated by people saying "wow, you have such talent" cause that is like saying somebody is magical and special, and people especially people with success abhorr being treated like they are special. Maybe they don't even realize that what they can do with practice is practically impossible for the majority of the population. who knows, but some professionals claiming they aren't talented does not disprove talent, at all.

>>3579585
>Some people are great singers
Having a pleasant voice is wildly different from being a great singer, the latter requires training. A lot of.
>Some great impressionists
Do you think they just wake up knowing how to imitate people, and it's impossible that they just did it again and again until they fucking learned like any other skill?

You're an imbecile if you think Michael wasn't the result of an abusive man pushing a charismatic child to a breaking point. The Jackson 5 were treated as circus animals, you fucking asshole.

>>3579590
success = talent + hard work

if you don't use your talent, then obviously you won't be successful. you actually have to do it.

also what are they supposed to say? "sorry i'm just more talented than you no matter how hard you work you'll never be as good as me"

this whole talent argument is stupid because of course there will always be people who are naturally better than you in your field. hard work still pays off most of the time if you're smart.

>>3579585
>I didn't read about the existence of talent, you imbecile, I've seen it several times in real life, most people have like

Anecdotal evidence.

Michael Jackson was trained from an incredibly young age by an abusive father to be a pop star. As I've already said, Carlsen grew up in a family of well educated people, who of which careers, are heavily associated with the same skills used in chest, i.e. math.

Every example you've given has been refuted, and the only evidence you give to the contrary is...Because you've seen it yourself? Well, Anon, that might work for bumpkins and retards, but some of us are a little sharper.

>>3579593
I do some impressions and I know for a fact that it is an urge, and I have never practiced a single impression, it is spontaneous improvisation every time. Also, I can't sing. But I have heard lots of people who can sing and there is a fucking difference. but you are blind as a bat, anon there is no use in arguing

>>3579597
I was thinking of people like you when I wrote this post.
>>3578167

>>3579591
>but some professionals claiming they aren't talented does not disprove talent, at all.

more like most every professional claims that anon. Unless they're all wrong and delusional and you, a beginner on a 4chan board has figured out the secret to becoming a great artist. You, who does not know their journeys in their craft automatically assume it's all just flukes and no one would get to their level without a innate ability.

Just brush aside the fact that a psychologist made a goal of disproving talent being real and created 3 chess geniuses at young ages and almost every professional artist claiming talent is not what made they great, that it was hard work and dedication. They're all wrong and you are correct.

>>3579599
If proof backs up people's delusions, how can they be delusions? It sounds like you're afraid of reality Anon. That's sad and you have my pity.

>>3579602
i'll believe it when someone produces a 60 IQ subsaharan nigger or abo chess grandmaster

>>3579602
yup, that's about right. You could give me 15 pages of "sources" for your bullshit and it wouldn't change what I have seen throughout my life. as an example I could probably give you tons of research that show there are no differences between boys and girls, but if you believe that over what life has shown you, you are a complete non-entity. goodbye.

>>3579596
>also what are they supposed to say? "sorry i'm just more talented than you no matter how hard you work you'll never be as good as me"
Yeah this cuts to the heart of it.

>>3579585
I was saying my friend is talent. Incidentally he believes talent exists as well.

>>3579606
No one said there wasn't prerequisites Anon. They're just refuting your 'because I said it exists waaah waaah nigger nigger qq' idea of talent.

>>3579610
is talented*

>>3579609
Anecdotal evidence again. If you have research show some research, otherwise go back to believing in essential oils and big foot. You're incapable of contributing anything of worth to a conversation outside of your own unhinged religious beliefs.

>>3579615
>anecdotal evidence

This is the age when the phrase "citation needed" is invariably connected to a fucking moron.

>>3579617
The only reason it makes you mad is because it means no one is taking your word for it.

>>3579621
what a lame accusation.

>>3579609
sorry anon, but when little jonny did a kick-flip he enjoyed skateboarding and practiced doing kick-flips until he got it down. When chad ran through 3 blockers in the football game he was practicing everyday after school to get to that level. when staci sang in school theatre show, she was already practicing for years in her bedroom late at night and playing around with her vocals to get to that point.

You call everyone around you talented because you don't see all the work or effort they put in to get to that level.

>>3579624
Predictably, responded get shorter and meeker the more wrong you feel. That's good. Go on now, go play around with your healing crystals, at least now no one is going to buy your bullshit :^) Progress is unstoppable anon

>>3578121
People vary in intelligence and temperament partially due to genes, a baseline level of intelligence is a prerequisite to doing art and different personalities are going to be more inclined to do it and get good at it -- in this sense talent exists.

>>3579625
I am aware that people practice. I have many times noticed in others when they hum a note, or catch a bottle, or drum with their fingers on the table an instant undeniable recognition of an intelligence that is miles above my own on the same subject. fuck off with your chad on the football field story pleb.

http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797614535810

>>3579627
yeah, you got a thing for that pseudo science huh? I wa slike that maybe 10 years ago.

>>3579625
i don't think anyone is arguing that practice doesn't make perfect, it's just apparent that some people are more inclined to have their hard work pay off sooner than the average joe. for every jonny that did a kick flip, there are a thousand other jonnys that put in the same amount of work and practice and didn't catch on as quickly. some people can play around with their vocals all day and will never be able to sing, it's just a sad fact of life.

>>3579639
>a thousand other jonnys
a very good point

>>3579609
>>3578928
>>3578931
>>3579360
>>3578241
and all the others that believe talent is real.

I recommend reading this:
https://hbr.org/2007/07/the-making-of-an-expert

Wrt Mozart. His family were also musicians, his sister played, so did also his father who was also a great music teacher, Leopold Mozart. He wrote a book about teaching music to children, and tested these ideas on Wolfgang's sister, he was also one of the very first teachers to push the idea of starting children's lessons at a very young age. That's how Wolfgang got good, not because of some special gift.

>>3579639
if you practice something over and over and get it right faster than someone else, that is not talent. You're experimenting with a skill to figure out the right way to achieve success.

if I want to get a basket ball in a hoop before johnny does, im going to experiment with how to handle the ball. I may throw too high and johnny throws it too far, each of those practices will determine my next step of throwing the basketball. It's not innate ability, it's experiences with whatever skill that leads me to my outcome.

>>3579609
>>3578928
>>3578931
Google the term "deliberate practice".
>>3579360

Read the book Peak by Anders Ericsson.

>>3579647
>explaining practice like people doesn't know what it is

>>3579645
Why aren't you considering the fact that millions of people are raised in musical homes all the time and Mozart is still recognized as the most talented genius musician far above the rest many millions of people later?

forget it, I mean if you can explain Mozarts talent with growing up in a musical home in the first place, you are kind of a lost cause. the same as most talent deniers, flat-earthers, creationists, social science majors etc...

>>3579651
>http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797614535810

>>3579645
>2007

The making of an expert

"All the superb performers he investigated had practiced intensively, had studied with devoted teachers, and had been supported enthusiastically by their families throughout their developing years."


>2014 http://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0956797614535810

"We found that deliberate practice explained 26% of the variance in performance for games, 21% for music, 18% for sports, 4% for education, and less than 1% for professions. We conclude that deliberate practice is important, but not as important as has been argued."


This is the citation game. Every fucking moron can find "proof" of his delusions. fuck off. use your damn brain honestly, instead of looking up citations that back up your own personal bias like a coward.

>>3579668
"Stop being a coward, believe blindly in everything everyone says even if they're completely wrong and emotionally stunted."

Nice.

Deliberate practice is important, but deliberate practice isn't the same as upbringing. Can you read, anon? Or are you just so intellectually lazy that you just grunt and stare until you see the pretty words you like? :^)

talent is real but no one at the top got there because of talent. if you don't believe talent is real youre a retarded jellyfag. it doesn't mean you cant be good or better than someone with talent in fact its probably a good thing because youre less likely to stagnate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QDPnlsJ1zG4

>>3578157
Its all about the environment you've been thrown in. Micheal Jackson has been thrown in the performance business without having any say in this. His father would abuse him and forced him to preform with strict discipline. All of his family had to. Having everyone around you who encourage you to preform well will speed up your skills in anything.

Even for Magnus Carlsen his father introduced him to chess at age five. Which means he had 8 years to become a grandmaster. He had books and his father took the time to teach him everything.

Yes sure its just talent. Its a an easy fitting excuse anon. Keep using it, im sure youre going places. ngmi

talent is the excuse retards use when the hate for what they are doing begins to conflict with their shitty entitled expectation of life.

Talent in terms of something as broad as "Art" doesn't mean anything. Talent in what? color shapes, forms, design, mark making, line variations, tone, storytelling, inventiveness? "Talent" is a clumsy stupid term we use when we don't understand why someones good at something.

>>3578136
false, people have different levels of visualization and spatial awareness ability
some people are born with shit taste with zero appeal to anyone else
some folks are born without ligamemes
check your privilege

Let's make this easy: for those who believe Talent is real, stop drawing right now. Don't bother.

There, saved you a lot of pain and misery. Go find a new hobby that requires no talent. Lots of those out there.

>>3579815
And then he learns that the other guys practiced as much as he did but talent gave them that extra 10%.

>>3579871
>I can’t exist somewhere where people might be better than me naturally, if I accept that to be true I might as well quit and do something else
Imagine having such a bitch mentality about what you do with your life.

>>3578121
Anything that's cartoony tumblr art style is shit and the only reason people draw in that style is due to laziness to try and challenge themselves and improve.

>>3578121
>Talent is real.
Thats not an unpopular opinion, just an incorrect one. Often parroted by lazy plebs who don't study, don't apply themselves or work hard, as an excuse to never try.

Seeing as IC lives in an alternative reality where most people think talent is real then on this board my answer is the unpopular opinion. Actually it's just the truth not opinion.

>>3579822
>Magnus had 8 years to become a grandmaster, no biggie

Why don't you consider the millions of kids that start out playing chess at an early age and never become grandmaster, let alone by the age of 13?

I mean how stupid are you people to find a rational explanation for ONE CASE and absolutely ignore that millions of other children were brought up under similar or better conditions and never reach the same level???????

So if you were brought up in Michael Jacksons house, you would be a motown superstar by age 5 is that what you are saying? Or if you started playing chess at age 5 with Carlsens family you would be grandmaster by 13? REALLY?

>>3579847
>talent in art doesn't mean anything
are you dense, talent means you are better than everyone around at SOMETHING. I've heard people drum on the table with their fingers and it sounded like real drums, I've heard people whistle the ennio morricone western theme and it sounded fucking REAL. I've whistled more than anyone I know, and I whistle everyday, but the thought hadn't even popped into my head that it was possible to whistle like that. It can be literally anything. drawing ofcourse, painting, color, form whatever abstract, realism, concepts who cares, if it is possible to do it in a good or bad way, soneone out there is gonna be better than the rest at it. its talent.

>>3578139
>>You can tell how good a cartoonist is, in particular, by how they stylize Sonic the Hedgehog characters.
yes

>>3579871
You're assuming people who say talent is real aren't talented buddy.

>>3579876
totally agree

Beauty isn't subjective.

>>3578236
I don't think I have something to say.
Is this necessary in art? Is this why I don't have a specific style despite years of oil painting??

>>3579968
these autists will just give stock responses and >anecdotal evidence
there's no point in arguing at this point, no one is going to change their mind on this

>>3579968
You seem to have poor reading comprehension.

>>3580047
I don't see the problem. you're claiming that "art" is such a big subject, you can't say somebody is talented in it. can you say someone is talented in sports, of course, talented in music, yes obviously, talented in math yup, talented in art, yeah? sure, a little more precision would be nice, like if it is drawing or installations, sculpting etc, but all you have to do is ask the person to elaborate. It's how humans talk, we use categories. "He's really a talented musician. HOLD ON talented in what EXACTLY? pitch?, rythm?, melody? I can't understand such a broad category, your words have no meaning." you're making it way more difficult than it is.
>>3580039
yeah, lets play the citation game again like >>3579668 If you have a brain, you can argue something with honesty and common sense. I use "anecdotal evidence" from my own experience, so that you citation whores might recognize these same experiences in your own lives, which would be 1000x more valuable than your shitty "proof".

>Has never made a bad drawing
>Gifted since birth, can draw literally anything
>Working various studios, so many options due to this gift
>Never bothered reading the sticky, knew perspective since birth

Any other talent bros in this thread?

>talent
its called aptitude

Kramskoy was Repin's friend and his mentor. He literally called him talented. That's a reason why he started teaching him about art world. He told Repin that art school can kill his talent. Your opinion about talent is irrelevant unless you paint on Kramskoy level.

>>3580021
That would be an unpopular opinion everywhere except for /ic/ and probably /pol/ if its still anything like it was a few years ago.

>>3578121
Asians aren't special, they just work hard and exceed expectations.

>>3580072
didn't you doubletiming piece of shit post this saying it's "from imagination"?

>>3580273
can confirm
t.lazy asian

>>3578186
>short, intermittent chicken scratch lines

Even as a sketch, it's not a confident one. Work more gestures.

>>3578612
Are you me

talent is real

>>3578186
Don't listen to people here, if you really have no studies this is a level that proves talent exists, pretty much like a friend I know. Normal people can't draw at this level. I'd argue people on /beg/ can't do it, and at least I know I'd have a very rough time making something with that level of realism even after practicing for the whole past month.

>>3579847
But but.. you just said it. Talent could be exactly that, being good at color shapes, forms, line variations or storytelling.
I know someone who hasn't studied anatomy so her humans drawings aren't that good but somehow always had a knack for drawing people's clothing and experimenting with her colors pencils so she's a mad genius at that.

And while I guess you could just call it practice, I include it as part of having "the gift". Mozart was talented, that much I think people won't dispute, being much younger than his peers yet completely outshadowing people with decades of experience.
But of course he wasn't born knowing how to play, I mean he didn't even know what a piano was at some point of his life, but he found himself being good at that and his practice gave him much bigger gains than the ones I'd get. Likewise, I put my acquaintance on that level. Talent at something makes you develop way faster than the rest, of course you can't just generalize and say
>You have talent for art!
but for the sake of not getting too technical that's what most people say.

>>3580579
>Mozart was talented, that much I think people won't dispute
dude, they are disputing it.

>>3580579
Everything you say is common sense and any normal unbiased person would agree. But the talent-deniers in this thread are very biased and they don't want talent to exist, so common sense is actually an obstacle to these people. But thanks for walking in here like an average joe giving his two cents, perfect example of what the unbiased mind would conclude about this question.

>>3580579
I didn't say talent dosen't exist, aptitude is probably a better term, I'm saying "talent", the word, is a metal shortcut. When you call someone talented your brain gets to skip all of hard work figuring out why they do so well. You're giving them magic powers in your mind.

if your art is shit work on it more or be smart with it

Porn artists are really boring

>>3580720
one of my pet peeves is seeing porn of a character with super powers, and not using them. If you could fly,, or shape shift or stretch or move at super speeds why wouldn't you do that in bed?

>>3579965
Millions of kids play chess, but assuming they all did it for 8 years, probably every day, with masters who can teach you. No I don't think there's even a million kids in these conditions.

>>3580788

>>3580788
what if your super power is autism?

>>3580700
or don't and shitpost it anyweigh!

>>3580927
Dude, Carrlsen is from my country, people here are pretty down to earth and I doubt he had a very different upbringing than myself. You are grasping at straws here, and this is just one case among thousands of genius prodigies in all fields. The numbers prove you dead wrong. Even in this case, it is extremely unlikely his upbringing was so radical that he became the best chess player in history and a a grandmaster at 13. It's plain common sense that he has a talent for chess and it is just insane that people will dispute this.

>>3580927

From wiki:

"Carlsen showed an aptitude for intellectual challenges at a young age: at two years, he could solve 50-piece jigsaw puzzles; at four, he enjoyed assembling Lego sets with instructions intended for children aged 10–14."

"he was able to recall the areas, population numbers, flags and capitals of all the countries in the world by the age of five. Later, Carlsen had memorised the areas, population numbers, coat-of-arms and administrative centres of "virtually all" Norwegian municipalities."

you are living in a bubble.

>>3579552
seconding this, and I actually like that poster's pic

>>3580720

As someone who draws kink art and looks at it a lot I completely agree with this.

Tons of kink artists don't do anything interesting. a lot of them pretty much exclusively do fanart, never coming up with their own designs. That's not so bad but then they don't do anything interesting in the fanart either. Its usually just whatever characters are popular or their waifu in a really boring pose with their kinks applied. Also 90% of the time they will be floating in a white void.

I don't expect people to be super fancy and creative with porn. Most people probably don't want that. But so much of this content is so similar it all just blurs together.

>talent is real!
>says the girl who has been playing piano since 3 and who has a music teacher as a mother
never fails to make me laugh

>>3583695
no you've got it the wrong way around. people who suck are the ones who say talent is real, people who are good at things don't, because they don't want they're hard work attributed to genetics or w/e.

people who suck can use it as an excuse, well i would be able to do it, but i didn't get the genetic gift or the early start, therefore you're not better than me despite my feelings telling me you are.

>>3583705
I see I see
really makes sense when you look at it this way.

Art degrades human existence.

>>3578186
How did you get Merkel to model for you anon?

>>3583695
aptitude is real. spatial reasoning is real. theory of multiple intelligences is real.

Yes, it is possible for essentially anyone to become good at stuff with practice and education and motivation and stuff.

But also yes, there are factors in human intelligence and development (and even factors like mental illness and traumatic injury) that can make some people more "naturally talented" than others in some ways and much less talented in others.

Brains are super complex.

>>3583705
Yeah it's just an excuse to be lazy. It's not that people in general have an innate urge to call out excruciatingly blatant bullshit or anything.

Pic related. It's the next Kim Jung Gi. Since every single human have perfectly equal artistic potential he could easily surpass any old master if he just put in the work required. And in any case, it's certainly someone for you to look up to intellectually.

>>3580788
This is so true. That would make it so much more interesting.

>>3578204
MAI KURESUTA!

>>3583705
This. I've won all the programming competitions I've been in, and I've studied less than a lot of the other participants. I like to pretend it's my pure hard work and effort that's let me win tho, and that's what I tell people. That's what people that worked and lost want to hear.

>>3584443
Okay anon, then how can you tell anyone is talented if it's possible for anyone to be good at anything with practice. You haven't watched over them for their years of practice, you don't know the environments they were raised in.

To fit the trend of this shitshow of a thread
>natural talent exists but is surface level only and anyone who puts in a few dozen hours of hard work will surpass someone who relies only on natural talent

>No one should go to art schools

>>3584539
>>3581550
>>3581550
>>3581550
>>3581550

>>3578139
>Digital art emulating traditional tools was a mistake
like what lmao? and they do a good fucking job at it unless youre a brainlet and dont know how to use them

>>3578121
Constantly using references and aiming for photorealism is bad. That's not to say you should never look at real life to learn how depth and colors blend, but if all you can do is recreate things we've already seen then I think it's severely lacking.
An artist's ability is to create, you need to be able to render objects and scenes from your imagination or you'll always be outclassed by a camera. You need to create the things that a camera can't capture.

>>3584539
> then how can you tell anyone is talented if it's possible for anyone to be good at anything with practice.
"talent" generally implies "practice" more than anything else tbphwyf. Even when it's the "prodigy" kids, they are essentially conditioned in their hyper-maleable toddler years to have a lifestyle that involved them practicing and working and developing constantly.

But like, "talent" itself is mostly just a word if gnome sang. Everything is just an attempt to understand and qualify a bunch of irrational nonsense.
>You haven't watched over them for their years of practice, you don't know the environments they were raised in.
It's often reflected in their "talent." Their "talent" is often a reflection of their lifestyle and education and general living conditiones. Like think about Olympic level bodytalentfags, for instance downhill skiiers, they generally always:
A: started that shit when they toddlers
B: generally spend every day possible on the slopes every year
C: are entirely mentally focused on studying footage and watching other skiiers and talking about it

And even then there are some people that just aren't as good or don't have the fortitude or the self-loathing or any of the other spectrum of factors that influence and effect "talent."

But we're talking about factors that determine who is literally the best on the planet. We're talking about drawing anime tiddies. Anyone has the capacity to get gud enough to master baiting that shit.

Art is magic. In that it's all about having a bit and tricking dipshits into thinking you're special.

>>3585019
>then how can you tell anyone is talented if it's possible for anyone to be good at anything with practice.
And if you want to be more scientific aboot it you could do twin intelligence studies, do surveys of artists and their brain function and stuff, have everyone draw the same owl and cartoon pirate and mail it in?

I think drawing is fun, I enjoy it.

Thank god talent isn't real and it's just starting at 3yo while being taught by someone extremely skilled. Now that I know that I can redo my life and start being infant again.
Oh wait, I fucking can't. Who gives a fuck if it's called talent, luck or being blessed by a god. It's all the same unachievable thing.

>>3578121
luck is infinitely more important than talent or skill

>>3585140
>Thank god talent isn't real and it's just starting at 3yo while being taught by someone extremely skilled. Now that I know that I can redo my life and start being infant again.
Well that's if you wanted to literally go down in recorded history as one of the best ever, yeah your whole dang generally has to have been dedicated to it.

But again it's about drawing anime tiddies or whatever, not being the greatest in the world. My point was that EVEN among the most extremely talented people whose entire lives were dedicated towards some bullshit, some are just naturally a little better or smarter or whatever.

Talent is an extension of intelligence. If you're fucking dumb or deficient in various aspects of intelligent you may be less "talented" than someone that isn't. Or more.

Everybody shits different.

>It's all the same unachievable thing.
Yeah like "winning a war on terror" or whatever. The means towards not being useless is to just set daily goals that can be achievable.

>Time is entropy,
>and "talent" is a construct.
>Art is production.

>>3585064
GET THE FUCK OFF MY BOARD

>>3578121
I always get discouraged when drawing anatomy because it literally looks miles below /beg/ level and to some degree I do wonder if talent is real because you never see a good artist have any pictures of when they just started and looked like shit and it's honestly quite discouraging, but then I wonder if they just do that to trick the world into thinking they were always just that good

Drawing from photo reference isn't as bad as some people like to say it is, and you can still learn valuable things from it that you could going out and drawing something you physically see. Of course you won't be able to do things like move around the object unless there are multiple pictures, but I still think drawing using photo reference is fine since it all ends up 2D anyway.

Schools leads to jobs.

>>3585349
ya, a bachelors degree is basically a "i'm not worthless" voucher.

>>3585349
no schools lead to connections and internships which lead to jobs, never do they guarantee anything

>>3585651
Then why does it not feel that way? Makes you feel just as worthless as before you had it.

>>3585651
Yeah it's an I'm in debt voucher.

>>3585684
No No No, You don't feel any better. Other people think you're better.
>>3585349
>>3585651
you know, if you go to classes and pay attention to that guy you're paying, he teaches you things.

>>3578136
>people aren't genetically equal
>people aren't mentally equal
>people don't all have equal IQs
>people don't have equal skillsets
>nobody can be better than someone else naturally though
cringe and bluepilled

>>3585934
Yeah i'm actually shocked at the delusion in this thread. I thought it was obvious that people have different levels of aptitude and intelligence.

>>3580066
Talent bro here, feels good to have never made a bad drawing ever in my life. Feels really good, man.

>>3578241
Mozart's father was also a musician and composer though.

my opinion is the fucking autist spamming his uncanny ass paintings in every single thread should be strangled

>>3586034
that's a popular opinion tho

>>3586034
you know it's kinda funny that meme man, hip hop 777 guy, and that guy who keeps painting the big lipped Mexican chick are the only people with a recognizable style on the entire board.

>>3585349
>>3585651
I always think this is retarded in terms of creative based jobs.
If I was a employer and I had to fill a concept artist role and was given two applications.
>one has a degree in art and is a alright artist
>the other doesn't have a degree but is a much better artist
I'd obviously choose the second one over the person with the degree.

>>3586056
>Spam the entire board nonstop with shitty paintings you shat out like an autistic printer running low on ink
>Yeah guys I finally have a recognizable style

>>3586034
At this point I'm seriously hoping he just dies or something since mods seem to refuse to ban him.

>>3585168
the thing is most "good" artists have been at least on and off drawing their whole lives and they're not gonna post their "bad" drawings from when they were 12, also artists tend to be extremely self critical so if they think a drawing that they've posted is bad they're gonna delete it

>>3586153
sorry ur upset bud
>>3586056
Well there's only 4 "traditional" posters that are willing to withstand the kind of impotent shitposting and malignancy that gets thrown at them. Like I posted a thing about how I was working on a painting about my dead dog and then some anons would try to use that shit as a shitpost at me for awhile. Fucking illustrat starts a thread and almost always gets called a nigger like right out the gate. It's a very hostile place full of butthurt assholes that hide behind being anonymous while weirdly projecting their own bullshit at anyone that actually puts work in and has no problem sharing it.

There'd be a lot more anons with "recognizable styles" if
A: motherfuckers just posted shit without fucking worrying about eating shit
B: motherfuckers were more willing to demonstrate things like "empathy" when they're providing "critique."
C: motherfuckers stop threatening to fucking dox artists or make threats to burn their lives down or imply that they know where they live and asking if their armed and stuff.

Anyone that "gets good" enough to move beyond applying Loomis to anime tiddies on their tablets isn't going to fucking hang around here to get reflexively abused and antagonized by a bunch of tryhard anonymous sociopaths for no reason.

>>3586231
>B: motherfuckers were more willing to demonstrate things like "empathy" when they're providing "critique."

>>3586059
What it would actually come down to is:
>one has a degree in art and is amazing
>the other doesn't have a degree or experience and is amazing

Sure, it's not much, but it will tip you over the edge if both artists are great. That being said, fuck the cost, only gone to community college for classes, and that's just to learn a few things, not to get a degree.

>>3586231
you post that shit in unrelated threads though, they're shitty quality mixed with your shitty personality makes people mad, it's not some kind of freudian projection.

>>3586231
funny how you think you are entitled to an opinion on what is wrong with this place when you are constantly making it worse. for me the breaking point with /ic/ was when I got banned for 13 days after threatening to post your dox when you were shitting up yet another thread.

>>3586059
Ofc, but the reality is that they'll have a short personal conversation with any candidate seriously considered, so if you have or don't have a degree won't matter if your personality is shit.

>>3586398
>you post that shit in unrelated threads though, they're shitty quality mixed with your shitty personality makes people mad
Time is entropy. This shits been going on for like 15 months. Part of the whole goof of what Im working on now is the de-evolution of me posting on /ic/ from trying my darnedest to accept critique and be pleasant and stuff. And now it's just a blanket can't give a fuck about any of your faggot feelings. Place was cancer before I started posting my stuff. Don't pretend it fucking wasn't.
>it's not some kind of freudian projection.
It absolutely is. I've gotten SO many anons that will straight up make their "critique" about how I'm a piece of shit for suggesting that I'm better than them. When my whole fucking point is that ANYONE can make art. So many fucking anons tell me shit like "you're not better than me" and shit and it's like, who the fuck said I was?

And then there's all the kids that straight up admit they give shit advice and bully anons and encourage them to quit because they think that'll increase their chances of getting good at drawing anime tiddies and stuff. I'm definitely not joking when I say that there is a LOT of projected mental illness on this board. That's part of what the "have to respond to antagonism" spearment is about. It's fascinating to see what shitposters reveal about themselves and their own anxiety when they're "critiquing" people.

>>3586558
>funny how you think you are entitled to an opinion on what is wrong
Funny how you think that entitlement has anything to do with this.
>when you are constantly making it worse.
Chemo makes a person feel worse when it's killing cancer too.
>for me the breaking point with /ic/ was when I got banned for 13 days after threatening to post your dox
Should have been permabanned you impotent piece of shit. What a contemptuous nigger you choose to be. And then you talk about "entitlement."

Like you post anonymously, afaik you don't actually contribute or create anything positive, you harass and stalk content creators that are bumping threads and driving community engagement because they hurt your faggot feelings. You have a community vendetta and you act like a destructive asshole that's willing to threaten to fuck up someone's life because you think they're fucking up an anonymous image board.

Funny thing is that your impotent doxxing threats was kind of what led to the "bot" project idea. You made your own life worse. You played yourself. Your malignancy will ALWAYS end up hurting you more than anyone else. That's the spoof!

Goddamn this is what I'm talking about with the mental illness shit. You're a belligerent buttblasted basic-rule violating faggot that contributes nothing to anyone and yet you get triggered by other people's "entitlement." Hilarious you got 13 days too. Didn't even know that was a option.

>>3578136
Talent is real, but so are passion, perseverance, luck, and fearlessness. Deficiency in some areas can be overcome by oversized strength in others.

reminder to filter and report this retard above me

>>3586797
I like how you portray yourself as this creative force but your views on everything, from this board to your art + your comebacks are dull and generic af. it also shines through that your liberal frontal cortex has branded 4chan as a place of evil, so you are okay even if you are proven guilty of being an asshole to people in here. You are a concoction of several unpleasant emotional hangups and they shine through one after the other in all your posting activity. and concerning my fee fees, I have always said I go to 4chan to get torn apart, that is the whole point wtp afaiac. I do not come here to look at an attention whore that has no interest in the craft shit up the place with his attention gimmick.

>>3586862
as Ive said before, im fine with you being here as a normal person. just dont post your acrylic shit or any photo copy again. they are honestly disgusting.

>>3586862
>I like how you portray yourself as this creative force
Do I?
>but your views on everything, from this board to your art + your comebacks are dull and generic af.
Are they?
>it also shines through that your liberal frontal cortex
>liberal frontal cortex
what did them meme by this?
>has branded 4chan as a place of evil
4chan is an anonymous imageboard. It is a place of "active measures political messaging strategy being conducted against westerners by belligerent foreign antagonists," plus it's the birth of plenty of toxic radicalization movements that have led to death and stuff. But I don't really believe in "evil" and I've been using the shit since like 2007 so idk what your point is. I don't do this shit to out of some kind of desire to hurt 4chan. It's unironically coming from a desire to antagonize the people struggling here to do better, if for no reason than to spite me.
>so you are okay even if you are proven guilty of being an asshole to people in here.
I try not to be an asshole for no reason though. Like yeah part of the bit is jumping from cheery goofball to belligerent demon but it's just a goof! And I'm talking to anons that refuse to identify who is addressing me while they're clearly carrying on a fight against me that's been going on in their head for weeks or months or whatever. I'm really mean to people like (you) sometimes but it's not supposed to be personal.

Like why would you hold onto all your butthurt and keep coming back with your own bullshit? idk who you are anon. i wont remember all the meanie things I said to (you) when you chose to be an anonymous text generator at me. And then you let that shit simmer and effect who you choose to be going forward. Don't do that. Is bad for you.

>You are a concoction of several unpleasant emotional hangups and they shine through one after the other in all your posting activity.
Yeah I'm ok with that.

>>3586862
>and concerning my fee fees, I have always said I go to 4chan to get torn apart
k
> I do not come here to look at an attention whore that has no interest in the craft
I mean, you're just choosing to be a sniveling faggot and you choose to talk to me as if I'm the strawman in your head. I apply basically every practical critique I get from anons. Likely why you eat shit so much when trying to talk at me is that you attack me instead of anything I'm doing. You're an ad hominem nigger.

I "have no interest in the craft" when it comes to the same fucking 3 retard criticisms that everyone says to everyone regardless of whether it applies. I "have no interest in the craft" of endlessly grinding fucking Loomis like you're a retarded 7 year old. I "have no interest in the craft" of getting amazing at sketching techniques when my job is producing paintings on canvas.

You're such a belligerent faggot anon. I literally made "the craft" my full time occupation. I'm doing this like my life depends on it. Who in the the wet fart are you? And why the fuck should I treat you like you're anything other than mewling disingenuous cunt you unambiguously choose to be at me?

Is this because of your "conservative frontal cortex" that you've been trained to create strawmen in your head to feel persecuted by and lash out at? Is this all actually about your cultist politiks that has led to you being such a sniveling delusional faggot that needs to fabricate things to be outraged about?

Either way it's your fucking problem m8. You're going to always fail in life and it'll always be your own fault.

>>3586867
Post your work kiddo

>>3586876
>>3586880
yawn
>>3586881
nope

>>3586919
nobody's ever really impressed by people that can't read anon.

>>3586919
actually nevermind. forgot about the 60 million people that were impressed by an illiterate child rapist lmao

>>3586231
>There'd be a lot more anons with "recognizable styles" if
>A: motherfuckers just posted shit without fucking worrying about eating shit
>B: motherfuckers were more willing to demonstrate things like "empathy" when they're providing "critique."
>C: motherfuckers stop threatening to fucking dox artists or make threats to burn their lives down or imply that they know where they live and asking if their armed and stuff.
good point, though. this board is extremely hostile against traditional painters that reveal more than one of their works.

>>3586876
>>but your views on everything, from this board to your art + your comebacks are dull and generic af.
>Are they?
yupp

>>3584539
You can't. It's actually literally impossible.

>>3578121
>Doing a study doesn't mean copying the source 1:1

Porn art gripes
>Making porn comedic
>Drawing porn in a cutesy art-style
>Matching art-style to source material
>E-celebrities

there's nothing holy about being an artist. if you wanna do it just do it. there's nothing holy about willingly joining the underdogs, nothing holy about taking the hard path. everyone has their work and they do it everyday. thats it.

>>3587856
>Matching art-style to source material
That's my favorite thing though.

https://twitter.com/HozureArt Art like this guy having less followers like this man https://twitter.com/GatodelFuturo

>>3587379
t. Jelly Roll Morton

>>3587856
>making porn comedic
This shit is obnoxious because it's the same shit
It's the SAME SHIT
EVERY TIME
THE SAME
EXACT
FUCKING HUMOR
DOWN TO THE SAME JOKE

THE ORIGINAL IDEA WAS TO MAKE CHARACTERS FEEL REALISTIC AND IN THEIR ELEMENT INSTEAD OF A SILENT DOLL, TO PROJECT AN IDEA OF LIFE INTO THE VIEWER
NOT TO REPEAT THE SAME EXACT FUCKING ROBOTIC JOKES OVER AND OVER

>>3578139
i like you.

>Universal basic income would be the best thing to happen to the arts in centuries
>2D elements in 3D art is vastly underutilized

>>3588804
If only UBI wasn't a colossal pipe dream

>>3588804
>Universal basic income would be the best thing to happen to the arts in centuries
>wanting more competition

>>3578219
If you don't like what he posted, do better. Be better, not worse.

>>3588862
I draw for fun. I'm only here so I don't suck at my hobby.

Horror art is incredibly easy

>>3588878
>draw human face
>fuck up face

>>3578172
>reaching a professional level doesn't require stars to align.
But, it does require talent. Talent isn't all technique, which is what the "talent doesn't exist" meme is based on. It's more than just technique - it's your brain. It's how you see art, it's how you think about it, it's your ability to think it. Creativity is a big part of it, too - Craig Mullins can you you technique for days, but if you can't do anything with it, it's not art. Craig Mullins is where he is, because of his brain - AND his hand.

The best analogy is this - anyone can learn to read and write. But simply writing the same sentences every day for 12 hours won't make you a bestselling novelist - that's where the talent comes in.

The ability to make something that someone else will pay money for requires talent. If you make it that far, you have some. No, you're not Mullins, but you have SOME. Discounting that is ridiculous, and ignorant of what art is, and the process. Even if you're bottom feeding doing furry porn for $5 an image - it's gonna take SOME talent to make images your clients want, and like. I would wager there's more people who come here, try, and fail, and never try again, than those who succeed, even at the bottom levels, and that's still a sign they have some talent.
Those who claim there is no such thing as talent usually don't have any.

>>3581535
XDDDD

>>3588804
>Universal basic income would be the best thing to happen to the arts in centuries
Sounds like communism to me. Obviously giving tax cuts to megacorporations and exploding the defense budget to make more tanks that will never be used is what is really important. Who needs human cultural advancement when Exxon is out there struggling to even make 10 billion dollars in profit every year?

>>3589548
Go away, Jimmy

>>3589551
This is Rashid.

>>3578121
>painting over 3D models to assist in a piece is still legit

>>3578121
Self-employed artists should pay taxes.

I get so many artists upset it's not even funny.

>>3589674
which artist doesn't pay taxes?
art supplies are hella expensive, if you don't want to buy student materials. as you start out as an artist, you probably face the typical financial issues. if you ever sell anything and would pay full taxes right away, you'd be left with getting even with the material expenses, if you are lucky.

now i'm not triggered by your "artists should pay taxes", by all mans. but isn't that sort of cutting your own flesh in a way?

>>3578121
unconditional basic income for artists is the worst idea possible.

i've talked to UK art students and they get raving mad when I reason with them and tell them that this would backfire on artists for centuries to come. as you introduce uncond. b.i. for artists, you cut away the natural selection that exists in persuing a career in art. you would end up with numerous trolls calling themselves artists, starting endless debates. and so on.
also one of the typical colored hair UK art student grill ideas: unconditionally getting paid for exhibiting somewhere, like an automatic wage by the cultural ministry. enter a shitload of grannies, exhibiting their sunflower paintings in dentists offices and manicure shops.

>>3578121
i hate it

>>3589693
>unconditional basic income for artists is the worst idea possible.
Literally no one says this. We are in an unpopular opinion thread right?

>>3578121
in order to get valuable feedback you have to be at least okay at what your drawing.
I see it a lot in the /beg/ thread where people get angry at a general critique (practice anatomy, learn perspective, etc) but in order for valuable feedback you have to be somewhat decent in order to notice where the faults appear, I.e some guy draws faces and in the right proportions but his cheekbones are off, that's noticeable valuable because the rest of his art is generally good.

I dont like the near-future blue-grey toned dystopian scifi "concept" Art i often see on artstation.

>>3588862
Competition and freedom is what makes everything better. Yes I would want art to get better.

>>3589693
Universal basic income would only cover the most basic necessities. If you want to have more than food and roof over your head, you have to earn your keep somehow.

Additionally, popularity and not sucking would motivate a lot of artists. Not getting that would discourage others. The good artists and most consumers won't bother with the shitty ones. I don't see how it'd be much different than what we have now, except with artists, skilled and shitty, having more freedom to do what they want to do.

>Universal Basic Income

Shut the fuck up retard lmao

Why don't you guys learn how to cook? You can still cook delicious food even if you're a total beginner. It saves money. There's an abundance of resources out there that'll teach everything you need to do, step by step. And even if you can only cook a few good dishes, people around you will admire you.

I just made some Kung Pao chicken, and it tasted delicious, even though I'm a terrible cook.

You guys seem to want to learn to draw so you can create masterpieces that'll impress people. If you want to impress people, there's easier and more satisfying ways to do it.

I'm just bringing this up because no one on /ic/ seems to actually enjoy drawing.

>>3589902
yes, there are enough people who demand u.b.i. for artists and I've talked to some.

>>3590232
even covering these basics would invite the most lazy and work-shy people in the demographic to challenge the definition of an artist. if there is no frame for who is and who isn't an artist, it allows for corruption and oportunistic cunts to come along and leech it dry.

What currently defines an artist is one or more of the following: public exposure of the works, more or less constant production, success, motivation and talent.
If there'd be a u.b.i. system introduced, you would need a waterproof frame of definition and that would be the most difficult part of it all.

>lazy man pretending to be an artist is confronted by the ministry to show that he is trying
>"yeah i'm trying, i'm trying alright! you can't just cut my basic needs off. it's a hard time!"
>resumes to play games all day and smoke weed
>second notification
>"Are you trying to claim i'm not an artist? I'm gonna sue all of you!"
>resumes to play games and get high

>>3589693
I'm living on a basic income that lets me persue my own interests. I'm using this opportunity to start multiple LLCs, produce over 1000 paintings, produce at least 2 documentaries about it, produce an educational parody show about it, etc.
>you cut away the natural selection that exists in persuing a career in art.
You're retarded. NGMI.

>>3590553

>lazy man pretending to be an artist is confronted by the ministry to show that he is trying
>"yeah i'm trying, i'm trying alright! you can't just cut my basic needs off. it's a hard time!"
>resumes to play games all day and smoke weed
>second notification
>"Are you trying to claim i'm not an artist? I'm gonna sue all of you!"
>resumes to play games and get high

fits so perfectly
see, people? it's already happening

>>3590553
instead of reaching out to the anonymous mass of 4chan users, you should reach out to galleries and curators.
instead of wasting your time on debating whether your unfinished works have any appeal of any kind, you should be testing it with a real crowd in a real art environment. you are building troll skills, when you should be building a decent language to talk to people in the art segment. where you are now is cooking in your own stew, reaching out to a completely wrong crowd - most people here hate real painting that follows no realist painting school tradition, most users are anime fans.

are you scared to test your work in a professional environment? everything you need to do is at grasp, right at the tip of your fingers.
apply for open calls, look for scholarships, financing, art prizes

http://www.resartis.org/en/news/upcoming_deadlines/

actually start your career and stop smelling up your apartment and doing nothing to get out of there. have some ambition for once, Jimmy.

>>3590297
Good point.
But to be admired as a cook you need to meet people besides your mom, and with the amount of "how do i draw anime"threads i think the majority of the /ic/ userbase is way to autistic to have many friends

>>3590553
what you call "documentaries" is just funny home videos that you make without any knowledge of editing and video production. you talk about a mock show in you constantly quote Tim & Eric stuff. the fact that you're upset about the "natural selection" part is that you fall through that grid, the way you work now. you are too afraid to test the quality of your concept by actually presenting it to a professional art related crowd. /ic/ is a freaking weeaboo board that salivates over scifi rendering porn aesthetics. you are wasting time. quantity isn't everything. you could have proven your point with a handful of your favorites.

worst thing that can happen when you apply to scholarships is get rejected. and if you are afraid that, than you should fucking man up and face it. the hours you spend trying to sell your thin concept to anons on /ic/ could be better spent on creating a solid portfolio in InDesign, making a well structured PDF, including your cv, a concise, relatable paragraph about your project, a selection of some 20 favorites of your current paintings (including basic infos: size, technique, date, title) …

off you go. send that PDF out there, apply for prizes. bounce it off whatever you can find, see if it sticks. why are you wasting time?

you need to kick your own ass and start something.

>>3590574
>lazy man pretending to be an artist is confronted by the ministry to show that he is trying
Why do you obsess about lazy strawmen? Human progress isn't marked by the lazy. The concept of basic income is about giving the people that have passion the ability to chase it.

If some otherwise NEET asshole wants to pretend like they're an artist to justify why the sit around and play vidya all day, that's basically everyone here as it is.
>"yeah i'm trying, i'm trying alright! you can't just cut my basic needs off. it's a hard time!"
Yeah god forbid the basic survival needs of your countrymen are ensured and protected by their government.

Like the US just gave away almost $2 trillion a year in revenue when they cut corporate taxes from "historically low" to "effectively nothing." They did this while increasing military spending by hundreds of billions. We're cutting social programs to pay for the corporatist welfare state as it burns hundreds of billions on unambiguous waste. If a fraction of that was spent on investing in people, the future of the country and the prosperity of it's people would increase. But instead we suck Exxon's dick and then whatabout to some boogieman asshole that might take advantage of a welfare system that makes their life less fucking dire.

>fits so perfectly
Yeah you're a cuck for corporations that spend billions training retards to whatabout to imaginary welfare queens that help you justify why you support policies that are fundamentally destroying your future and your life.

If you think some vidya playing dipshit would "abuse" a basic income that increases that keeps them out of desperate poverty, why do you then trust that the corporate plunderbund that gets all TRILLIONS in yearly welfare assistance wouldn't also take advantage?

Why are you ok with Walmart and McDonalds getting hundreds of billions in handouts a year while hundreds of millions of working people can't afford to eat without food stamps as it is?

>>3590577
>instead of reaching out to the anonymous mass of 4chan users, you should reach out to galleries and curators.
eh I kind of see them as being similar to professions like travel agents or whatever. They offer exposure, which is what the internettes do now.
>you are building troll skills, when you should be building a decent language to talk to people in the art segment.
I'm still holding out on the delusion that I'm going to produce a video series about this. If you leapfrog over all the gatekeepers and just pander directly to normies and children and stuff you don't need the uppity dickheads.
>where you are now is cooking in your own stew
Exactly I'm doing a lot of writing and thinking for episodes about stuff.
>most people here hate real painting that follows no realist painting school tradition, most users are anime fans.
I know that's what's fun about this.
>are you scared to test your work in a professional environment?
idk?
>actually start your career and stop smelling up your apartment and doing nothing to get out of there
I'm getting there. I'm hitting the road in October with muh memes and gonna drive around the country doing stuff. Like the idea of going to really beautiful and exotic locations and painting ugly pictures of faces.

>>3590584
>>3590587

Anon are you okay? I didn't even read your essay but I'm worried about you.

>>3590582
>what you call "documentaries" is just funny home videos that you make without any knowledge of editing and video production.
I mean my university education and professional background is in media studies and production technology and stuff. I have a decade of experience working in tv, film, and industrials. My "real" aspirations in life have always been to produce and direct my own content.
>you are too afraid to test the quality of your concept by actually presenting it to a professional art related crowd
maybe. I think part of my whatever is that I think if I can just ignore the art crowd and eventually just produce and market content aimed at consumers, I could plausibly just skip over all the pretentious art people.

Like you know how Penn and Telller's whole schtick is that they kind of "expose" the production aspect of magic performance, while also trying to be funny, while also still doing a cool magic trick.
>/ic/ is a freaking weeaboo board that salivates over scifi rendering porn aesthetics. you are wasting time.
yeah sure. It is more about the writing exercise for me than anything else I think. This all (as I justify it to myself) is about thinking about dialogue/monologue stuff to use on How To Paint Trump, How to Paint Self-Destruction, How to Paint Entropy, etc.

Plus they're reaction images from 4chan. Part of the goof of this "exhibition" is the weird fucking arguing that accompanies them right now.
>worst thing that can happen when you apply to scholarships is get rejected.
like college scholorships? I'm not really interested in that no mo.
> the hours you spend trying to sell your thin concept to anons on /ic/ could be better spent on creating a solid portfolio in InDesign
Yeah this definitely is not the most productive use of anything.
>making a well structured PDF...
I'll do this then. Whole project is about anons telling me what to do after all.

>>3590592
fucking woke up at 4am. Pretty buttmad about that.

>>3578136
Then how footballers, who have the exact same amount of training, will end up being better than another player?

>>3579893
For those who only draw that, sure.
But using a simplistic style that evokes form and feeling is not a bad thing if it does the right job. We all know focal points are important, same with push and pull in animation and design so why not do the same with stylistic choice?
"anime" is not bad if you understand that implementing different levels of detail in certain areas can make it more visually appealing. Just learn from others, don't ignore them because you think you are above them. You will never learn otherwise.

>>3592449
Good response but it sort of went off topic. I wasn't talking about anime, the japs know how to make cartoons but keep it challenging and impressive, visual wise. I was specifically refering to tumblr art style like in pic related. It's obvious the artist is lazy and doesn't ever study or try to challenge themselves, they stick to their comfort zone and don't care about the fact that it looks unappealing, they don't care about standing out either and doing their own thing instead of following trends. I didn't care or get bothered by the style before until it over flooded most big art websites. I can't even search YouTube for good sketchbook tour videos anymore even because all I get are sketchbooks riddled with pic related and it is boring seeing the same exact patterns with little to no challenging artwork. Nothing is ee requires actual skill to learn. I luckily found a couple of good artists on instagram, personally not a big fan of their art as a whole but their sketchbook videos are interesting and motivational. Most sketchbook videos don't motivate me anymore because everything I saw them drawing is very easy to achieve. I sort of miss seeing artists that I felt challenged by. I have a competitive mindset and always had a lot of fun slowly reaching the level of random artists, but I still respected their works.

>>3578121
Art and beauty is subjective because pic related is obviously better than krenz

>>3590052
Is it worse than Generic Cyberpunk Night City #420 though?

So if the talent exist is worth draw when i are a talentless?

>>3593176
how do you know you are talentless, anon?

>>3593197
Judge by yourself

>>3593227
not turrble proportions. Just do it again but better. Use more confident lines and stufff.

>>3593230
With drawabox ill do better lines or gain More confident?

>>3578121
The stuff you see on deviant art, or artstation, isn't art. No matter how good or well drawn/painted it is, it ain't art. Closer to design than art, especially concept art.

>>3578121
The earth has a gravitational pull

>>3595570

shut up chunbum

>>3578499
Real shit right here. Hard agreed

>>3578136
Yea, i'm sure anyone could be as good a footy player as Messi if they applied themselves...

>>3578160
>i could prove it but i don't feel like it
kek

>motivational "everyone can learn how to do x" speaker says talent is real but you need hard work to go beyond just that
>says you can do better than talented people with hard work
>doesn't talk about the possibility of talented people honing their abilities and btfo'ing normal and below average geneticfags

>>3595628
gifted people are often lazy though
i was a smart kid and had a bunch of teachers who'd tell me i'd go on to be a writer/biologist/whatever, lost motivation, spent my early twenties in my apartment high on oxy

you're right ofc but most people have their hurdles to overcome one way or another, either way, you gotta try and do your best with the hand youre dealt with, that's just it

Maybe this is only something non artists say but the idea that artistic talent comes purely from "creativity" and "expression". Whenever I've improved at art it's because I studied things like perspective and anatomy. When I draw I'm thinking in terms of physics and concentrating on how things work. The quality of what I make seems dependant entirely logic based skills. Once you know those things by heart you just have to dick around with some of those rules and people call it "creative". But I don't know. Is that taking for granted my own sense of "creativity"? My proccess is to sort of throw whatever shit I want down on paper then spend the effort on fixing/redrawing it to become "art". I have trouble seeing the "throwing shit down" part as a skill. Anything that would make the initial concepts better or worse is just a subjective perspective on what good "creativity" or "expressiveness" is.

Talent exists but can't manifest itself without hard work. It's useless to obsess over something fundamentally intangible and will most likely be more burden than a gift like >>3595637.

>Hard mode?

The art you enjoy now would not be possible as it is without the abstractionists. Think of it like an Overton window, without the dramatic shift on the extremes of what art could be, the anime girls and space marines we enjoy today couldn't exist. I think you can see this most prominently in illustrators, after a certain level of drawing you can't really stand out until you push the limits of line, composition, markmaking etc. Pic related.

photography isn't art and drawing isnt art. it's what you portray that is art.

art cannot be taught. if you criticize art you are not criticizing it as an artpiece. you are only criticizing the technical ability. hence why you can get good at drawing but can't learn to make compelling art.

>>3595734
oh there is plenty of art that is technically sound, but lack substance, or doesn't convey the intended message or be just plain dull.