/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>3539960
They don’t draw from refs and they don’t or cant do studies

Listening to music while drawing

>>3539960
they don't draw, lol.

>>3539960
they copy refs line by line instead of forcing themself to use their memory more and look at the ref as few times as possible

>>3539960
always searching for shortcuts and delusional secrets.
no life drawing
no studying
no drawing at all
no art history
no other education
no other skills
not even friends
ignores traditions
just video games and autism
and a fuckload of entitlement.
every. fucking. ic. beginner.

they think photocopying requires a shit load of skill, and they rely too much on references after discovering that its not cheating to use them

how to not rely on reference: do studies. learn from the studies and don't just copy angles mindlessly. the first step is to draw what you see, definitely. but that exists to help you break symbol drawing and start building up your visual library. you can still use similar tools when studying but you have to do it mindfully so you absorb the information. people learn differently so there's no sticky thatll tell you how to learn. if you come away from a study not knowing what you learned then you fucked up. the what can be anything: the constraints of a joint, the forms of the knee, how the face gets tucked/stacked at an angle. but if youre just mindlessly photocopying youll end up on ic wondering why you aren't getting better

>>3539979
But ambient music helps me focus more. The silence can be deafening and if theres any noise at all, even tv from the other room, it's impossible to concentrate. Music helps drown out all those small external sounds

>>3539979
why people keep saying this? not like it's going to miraculously improve dumb people's ability to focus. and it simply fucks up people who live with music all day.

>>3539979
"When you paint, always be thinking of something else", that's Raphael according to Dali.
It is pollution when you're figuring out things, laying out for a painting, searching ideas, but a welcome distraction for the hand.

1. They don't use references
2. They use references, but only photos and they mindlessly copy them angle by angle and line by line.

Good thread. Also : shading only with 100% black & 100% white without paying attention to the hue/saturation, pick the most colors without having a clear color palette in mind from the start, using bases, can't face negative (but constructive) feedback because all they heard were praises ("oh you don't like it? You're just a hater", draw the same subjects on & on without leaving their comfort zone, think that using X tool or X brush will make their art magically better (if you're a good artist, you can do good art even with MSPaint),"muh artstyle", thinking that anatomy/perspective/other fundies aren't important to master...

>>3539978
>They don’t draw from refs
have fun not being able to draw from imagination because you used refs

>>3540079
Have fun drawing garbage from your imagination because you don’t know what anything actually looks like.

>>3540084
Real life stuff is too complex to replicate it. You need to build it from forms and you can do this without knowing how it actually looks like

>>3540079
>>3540084
Younglings, you are BOTH correct. Rely too much on references & you won't be as good as you might think when I just give you a paper,a pen & ask you to draw whatever comes to mind.
Don't use references, and you will have a very hard time being accurate with stuff like cars, anatomy,etc.You might be a genius with an eidetic memory, but apart from that you need to train on a subject a little, otherwise it might not end up believable...

>>3539960
Learning fundies.
Draw first, fuck up, then figure out what needs to be fixed, not the other way around.

>What if I suck at everything xD

Then you'll never improve.

>>3540118
Wait, are you saying that learning is bad for drawing? wtf

>>3540122
Yes if you learn shit it is. I spend 5 years drawing shit that doesn't helped me a bit

>>3540123
Elaborate

>>3539960
Not ever warming up.
draw a couple cylinders and cubes and shit before doing a big drawing, ease into it.
Otherwise you're gonna have a hard time feeling out forms.

>>3539968

>OP: how do i make work like [pic with solid fundamentals]
>ic: work on your fundamentals
>OP: no you are idiots, i don't want to use fundamentals tell me what magic brushes to use

Don't be this guy

>>3539960
they don't look at their own drawing.

they pull up their ref and judge it based on whether or not its close enough, and thats it. but when you show the drawing to another person, they dont know what the original ref looked like, if there even is one. so make your drawings look like drawings, not visual impressions of photographs.

>>3539960
>Drawing too small.
>Hoarding tutorials.
>Not working from big to small.
>Stagnating, not planning or setting goals.
>Worrying too much about "the right tools".
>Pride.
>Jumping ahead of themselves (studying anatomy when they can't draw a straight line).
>Having an imbalance between studies and personal work (either way).
>Watching Draw with Jazza.

>>3540181
>or setting goals.
give me a good goal

not drawing
not enjoying drawing
not drawing and lighting the basic forms
spending more time wondering if a certain method "works" than actually trying it and seeing if it works
all-or-nothing thinking (such as the "refs vs non refs" argument in this very topic)

>>3540181
>>Hoarding tutorials.
Hoarding tutorials AND not using them
it's true that I've hoarded more refs than I'll even need in life, but it's nice to have to chose

instead of having a few hundreds of pics to study like god's words, it's better to have thousands, browse for a few mins and then pic a few I feel like studying today, or have folders with certain themes when I feel like drawing lions or animu characters

>drawing what they /think/ something looks like rather than what it actually looks like
People seem to have these templates in their minds on what people or things look like, rather than looking at actual spatial relationships. Not every man you're going to draw is some iteration of the vitruvian man
>having a habit of outlining everything
it's amateurish and flattening
>ignoring lighting
see above
>not stepping back from their work, looking at it in a mirror, and/or photographing it
Your eyes are biased
>getting caught up in little details before drawing out the whole thing
It'll take too long and you're gonna mess up your proportions anyway

I think the biggest mistake beginners make is stupid all-or-nothing perspectives.

They meme themselves into bizarre needlessly self-limiting approaches. They ask "Are references good or bad?!" "Is Loomis a God or is he completely useless?" "Am I totally wasting my time if I do gesture drawings or should I be spending every minute of every hour drawing gestures?" "If I need construction does that mean I should draw 100,000 boxes before I start learning anatomy?" "What is the 100% optimal reading order of books to maximize my art gains?" They want an easy answer, a single convenient method, but the correct answer is "virtually any approach, technique or tool has a time and a place, and it often depends on circumstance."

I suffered from this as a beginner too, but at a certain point you need to just embrace the fact that art is complex, nuanced, varied and the journey is immensely personal. There are sometimes better and worse ways to do things, but it's almost never as cut and dry as people make it out to be. If someone shoves an extreme down your throat like "x thing is completely useless" or "only do y thing for a year" take it with a massive fucking grain of salt.

>>3540181
>>Jumping ahead of themselves (studying anatomy when they can't draw a straight line).
what did he mean by this? There are people who study anatomy and don't even draw.
Studying anatomy can be done at any time, it will help you for the other area later on

>>3540142
ah yes, my artist friend does warmups. I neglected that.
>>3540123
what are some examples of things I shouldn't be drawing?

>>3540267
>what are some examples of things I shouldn't be drawing?

impossible to answer without knowing your goals.

>>3540247
>I think the biggest mistake beginners make is stupid all-or-nothing perspectives.
That's because drawing is the hardest skill to learn in the world, I wish it was linear learning like anything else
>Oh you want to be /fit/? start with low rep, then more and more etc
>Oh you want to learn piano? start with solfege then easy song then harder etc

fuck art why did I choose the hardest skill to learn

>>3540280
I would like to get to approximately this skill level by the end of the year.
I am a beg who can draw from life, draw boxes, and draw furniture pretty okay.

>>3540247
>They meme themselves into bizarre needlessly self-limiting approaches
>art is complex, nuanced, varied and the journey is immensely personal

a lot of beginners don't want to go down that tough and personal existential road. they expect and even demand a ready-made solution to be given to them, just like everything else in modern life.

it's very daunting at the start of a journey when you don't know anything and what consequences await you down particular paths of development. so the packaged solution has a lot going for it.

for some people learning to drop preconceptions and just experience what they are seeing is in a similar category to religious conversion. it's sad how few people actually know how to use their eyes and mind together because they make stunning things.

>>3540299
>I would like to get to approximately this skill level by the end of the year.

It's possible, but seeing as how you're on /ic/, that isn't likely.
I don't go much detail into this cause of the current state of this board, but here's how to git gud.

>I am a beg who can draw from life, draw boxes, and draw furniture pretty okay.
The quality of your studies is 90% irrelevant. The fact you can draw boxes "pretty okay" doesn't mean shit. Lots of pros out there where their studies look like shit but their original work is 10/10. Who knows, only time when this takes effect is when their style is more realistic, and thus their studies are as good as their original pieces.

Now, you wanna draw shit animu, okay fine.
Grab one of those characters and try drawing them in 3 different poses. They are gonna look like cringe, don't worry. In fact, the first 500 attempts will be cringe. But why do they look so shitty? This is where life comes into play.

Look at one thing at a time.
"Wow, my faces look bad, I wonder why?"
"Well, the eyes look flat? How do I draw a realistic eye? Oooooh, it's more Rounded. But how does my favorite animu artists give the eyeball the illusion if depth."

etc, etc etc

This is why you're always told to study from life. The more you apply what you study from life, the more believable you can make your characters become. But know that study only from things you Need to study to improve. Don't study random shit for the sake of studying. Drawing boxes all day will only make you good at just that, boxes. If you draw 5,000 boxes and only 1 animu character, of course your animu character will continue to look like garbage. But, sometimes you need a good box to make sure your animu character does come out right.

Anyways, fuck you, and good luck.

>>3540326
shit, that was awesome.
thanks dad.

>>3540185
"Okay, I'm good enough at drawing the figure, but I can't draw anything until I can draw a decent face. Therefore, I will limit my figure drawing sessions and every other day go through a chapter of this book about emotions and fill a few pages with various expressions, half from imagination, half from reference.
I should also start producing some more finished work, so I should design two characters a month from a random location/time period + a prop or a hideout for each. For every successful drawing session, I'll reward myself with a scoop of my favorite icecream.."

>>3540261
>Studying anatomy can be done at any time
I cannot agree there. If you're going to pick up an anatomy book, you need to understand what it's telling you, and to understand a pectoral muscle for example, you need to understand its roundness, which you can't if you don't know yet how to draw form. You need to understand it from different views, which you can't if you don't know perspective. You can't draw perspective unless you have decent line confidence etc etc. You can see that in /beg/ all the time.

>>3540079
You will never be able to draw a single believable object more complex than an apple to save your life.

>>3539979
Drawing is just lots of repetition and fixing errors which could get boring and tiresome. Music helps a lot.

>>3539979
when im doing studies its distracting, but when im doing a drawing from my imagination it helps a lot to experience various moods that i can put into the piece

>>3540079
As a beginner I wasted two years ‘drawing from imagination’ before realizing it was shitty advice by KJG fanboys. After that I stopped doing it so much and drew from refs, and guess what? now I can do it properly because I studied what the damn things actually look like. Pretty much the worst thing you can do to someone just starting out is give them these false ideals, no one should even attempt it until they’ve internalized proportion, gesture, and other fundies

>>3540495
post work. i want to see this now

>>3540449
maybe when you are rendering. even then though it can be pretty risky.

>>3539960
not drawing

>>3539960
Not draw from references. Always draw it while looking at it. Your imagination is unreliable. This way you can't draw anything without reference. It's totally ok. Because that should be your goal.

>>3540079
biggest meme on this site tb.h

>>3540079
You are being stupid anon.

I honestly don't know who is meme'ing who anymore when it comes to using references and not using them.

>>3539980
Tpbp.

They get all the books and sources and knowledge and maybe they even read through them and everything and assume they now have the ability to draw like pros do and get discouraged when they dont. They gotta draw to build skill and study to learn to know when they fuck up. If your art is the best it can be, you just dont know enough to see what's wrong. And Visa versa, if everything you do looks wrong, its cause you know what should be there but you just dont yet have the skill to apply it to the paper. So you do it again and when that problem area comes up, you think. "Hey, last time this looked like shit, Im going to look it up and see how it looks and try to get to that" And if it's better, you continue. If it sucks, you still continue. Cause nothing is gonna beat, just drawing.

1. Not going to art school or paying for an alternative to art school to have a professional look over your work.

2. If one is JUST getting into drawing, trying to do "studies" before finding the joy in just drawing what it is that you want to get into drawing in the first place is another mistake.

3. Not drawing every day.

4. >>3539979 not listening to music while you draw. Fuck you faggot.

5. Watching lecture videos more than you draw.

6. Posting every work of art you do online. May it be a study or just a fun doodle.

7. Branching off of 6; drawing just for likes, favs, and subscribes when you're still just a fledgling

8. Not consuming current entertainment or media in your off-time.

9. Falling for the 16 hour meme. Don't quit your day job.

10. Falling victim to gumroad/udemy/skillshare ((((tutorials))))).

>>3539979
>it's in the animators' survival kit, thus it's irrefutably true
i bet you also fall for the 10000 hours meme
music doesn't distract all that much and helps quite a bit at the very least with motivation and creativity
when i need focus, i have it, most of the time i end up at a random point on my playlist, because i haven't paid attention to the music

>>3540646
This is a pretty darn good list, but i'll pick with the first one
the biggest drawback of not going to art school is that you're not surrounded by artists, which can be a huge motivator to learn and draw more
this can be remedied a little by involving yourself with artists that actually work on and showcase their progress aka. not /ic/
'professionals' come in many varieties, some merely are professionals due to their connections, not because of their skills
they also have their own set of bad habits they have developed that these artschools have an extreme tendency to allow their students to inherit
professionals=/=good teachers as you basically have stated in 10.

i would also add: valuing amount and time having drawn as opposed to the quality of it

>>3540326
Yo, not the anon you answered to, but thanks for the advice, that's some thoug love

Thinking certain tools, programs, styles, schedules, etc will make them improve faster. Then giving up on said things when they don't quickly pick up on them, assuring they never build up on anything

well.

I'm not exactly a beginner, I've been drawing for a while.

But for the first ten years, my greatest motivation was fear... or something like it. I believed there was something on the line... and that I had to act right away. It wasn't always art. I took on a lot of shit. I had ambition, but it was aimless, more like someone was firing off rounds at my feet and forcing me to dance.

I guess my best advice is to not draw as if your happiness is on the line. Those are worthless drawings that don't help anyone.

>>3539979
I listened to music while studying for ODE and emag exams

I am pretty sure I am capable of listening to music and drawing anime girls

>>3540008
i will never understand the hypocrisy of /ic/ veterans. 90% of online digital artists had their humble beginnings by tracing and copying anime in the late 2000s

and when newcomers balk when told to study artbooks from the last century, veterans sneer and stick their nose in the air.

i dont even see newcomers asking for "shortcuts". i see them asking for more information being "dude loomis lmao"

but providing that information would take 30 seconds of your time, time you'd much rather spend thumbing your nose and tut-tut'ing beginners for having the exact same mindset you possessed when you were their skill level.

i am so fucking glad i went with the STEM meme because artfags are fucking insufferable elitist dicks. if i don't understand a math concept, i can ask people for help. if someone asks the same of me, i will help. but god forbid you ever ask an artfag for help because theyll just shit all over you. except IRL where they're beta wimps

>>3540646
Post your work

>>3540025
cause people like milt kahl said it, so everyone must do it.

>>3539960
I see plenty of beginners needlessly overthinking drawing as if its some deep meaningful endeavor. It's not. It's just making shades of gray on a page to create an image.

Don't be neurotic about it. It's just like any other skill. There are fundamental methods and techniques that you can learn like anything else. All it takes is a bit of study and practice. Do that enough and you'll get pretty good at it.

>>3540751
I'm not a pro in the industry or anything. Just a pleb who has been falling on his feet for years that picked up the wrongs and rights from trial and error. Take what I said with a deaf ear if you want.

>>3540749
I have to agree. Over time while loomis was orignally more of a humorous or >go here newfag meme, it's now only dismissive and usually shuts down any discussion that might be had about actually learning to draw and not being an egotistical artfag. It's perpetuating the crabbery

>>3540181
>Jumping ahead of themselves (studying anatomy when they can't draw a straight line).
It's the opposite. The correct choice is to go ahead and try to actually learn things instead of being so afraid that you literally practice drawing straight lines for days or even longer which is completely retarded.

>>3540495
>no one should even attempt it until they’ve internalized proportion, gesture, and other fundies

>>3540079
your imagination is also influenced with a reference from life in one way or another.

>>3540229
>drawing what they /think/ something looks like rather than what it actually looks like
The commentary is tasty surimi tho. Art is not about the copy or reality. You'll ultimately always have a template in your mind, it's more about refine it, and chosing carefully what is its meaning. Naturalism is a particular view.

>>3540749
>i am so fucking glad i went with the STEM meme because artfags are fucking insufferable elitist dicks. if i don't understand a math concept, i can ask people for help. if someone asks the same of me, i will help. but god forbid you ever ask an artfag for help because theyll just shit all over you. except IRL where they're beta wimps

boy you have not seen /sci/. literally same shit but with math and science. everyone expects you to be a 200 IQ genius to understand a concept

>>3540008
Thanks for the chuckle anon

Good habits are always great, but most of the advice you find on /ic/ is for just until you get to a level of competence, after that it just becomes white noise

>>3539960
They draw my dick too tiny

>>3540932
When the semester is in, I routinely shitpost all over /sci/. /sci/ is full of bants. If you legitimately do not understand algebra or geometry, people will usually try to help you.

Most of the elitism and shitting comes from Physics Masters/PhD students shitting on engineering majors, and engineering majors shitting on other STEM majors.

I have seen /sci/ anons explain the number line to people who didn't know pre-calc algebra. I've seen them explain basic geometry, sine and cosine.

It's when you get to ODEs and multivariable calc and differential geometry that they'll start shitting on you, because you're expected to know how to navigate the higher classes. They'll call you a brainlet for struggling in calc 2 but they'll usually help you with understanding tests for divergence or taylor series.

>>3539979
>all these replies from butt bamboozled retards that can't concentrate
Multi-tasking is cancer for your brain.

these threads are fun, i get to see so many ignorant retards throwing around the limited knowledge they can in insecurity and hope they will get to influence somebody into taking in a piece of their mind

>>3541391
what posts are you referencing exactly, oh the wise one

>>3541391
bait

>>3541391
Take in this dick, bitch boy.

>>3540495

see >>3540247

>>3540910
This. Also, a good figure drawing class or anatomy book/video will teach you how to see in basic shapes anyway. A good class will especially teach you how to draw lines, shapes, and render to point where you can skip a beginner art class.

A lot of times a beginner will take the beginning art class, and then they don't enjoy it because its boring. For example, how many people on /ic/ get burned out with drawing boxes when they just want to draw people?

if any of you are looking for a beginner friendly art community with funny boys in it. https://discord.gg/RvHW2RS Need more dedicated people who want to improve

>>3540247
This is an amazing post.

>>3539979
>>3541386
Multi-tasking is a myth. You can't successfully complete two tasks at once.

I've found that when I'm listening to the radio and drawing that either:

A) I am fully concentrating on the art & haven't heard a word or note of music that came out of the speakers. It is just background noise.

B) I'm listening to the radio & have heard the majority that has been broadcast. Meanwhile I'm not paying the proper attention to the drawing needed to pull it off.

>>3541744
>with funny boys in it
So in other words a meme spouting shithole for retards.

>>3542911
Correct.

>>3542911
i listen to music because it distracts me from the tinnitus

>>3540646
>If one is JUST getting into drawing, trying to do "studies" before finding the joy in just drawing

I think this may be holding me back. I want to improve but grinding studies is painfully boring.

>>3542911
What if background noise is exactly what i want?
I can't bear sole silence when i'm rendering things or polishing up a drawing.

>>3540749
>i am so fucking glad i went with the STEM meme because artfags are fucking insufferable elitist dicks. if i don't understand a math concept, i can ask people for help. if someone asks the same of me, i will help. but god forbid you ever ask an artfag for help because theyll just shit all over you.
The unfortunate part of the matter is that in real life there is a methodology of teaching at an art school or atelier. The most important part is getting feedback and guidance but you should be able to develop your eye to tell when things are off enough. Loomis and all the other recommendations are quite bullshit but no one wants to put in the hard work of still lifes or bargue plates to improve accuracy.

It frustrates me too coming from a science and music background in that there are very much proven pathways for learning which I had to find on my own in art from looking at different curriculae and books that worked for me. Art is hard but it doesn't have to be as nebulous to learn as everyone treats it online perpetuating bad resources because other "good" artists said they were good.

>>3539979
Listening is a passive ability you fucking dweeb

>>3540495
I love drawing from imagination, though.

Giving up on fundamentals with the idea that they can learn anime/stylized without them, because "fundamentals are scary" (aka a good part of the people on /alt/).

It's like being given a path to scale a mountain, but wanting to scale it through a cliff instead because the cliff is next to you and "you can just about see the top right there". But you can't climb the cliff, you don't have any equipment, and you're just gonna fall and hurt yourself doing so. They think drawing only anime is the comfy road because you'll be drawing cute babes right from the start, but if anything it's the opposite. After a few months, drawing with fundamentals gets way comfier. Remember, your objective is to scale the mountain, and having walked *some* of the path gets you some of the way there, while staying at the cliff only lets you stare at it from the bottom.

Plus that shit quickly starts to translate to stylization very well, realistic fundamentals are just where the most gains are made the easiest.

>>3542965
>tinnitus
Why not just have a fan on?

>>3539960
Not washing their hands after they go boom boom

>>3543223
my own personal opinion is that advice for things with very low bars for entry, like diet, exercise, art, are going to be clogged up with millions of peoples' bullshit anecdotes. but if you look for help with something like laplace transforms, everyone who can do those is mostly competent and not retarded or 90 IQ or 10 years old, so the resources available and people willing to offer advice are going to be of a certain intellectual/mental caliber.

but there's so many kids and so many teenagers and so many 80 IQ drooling morons, and crazy people who want to draw and who have access to pencils, paint, whatever, and who fancy themselves experts. so you just have this constant clusterfuck of bad information swirling around.

good, structured, solid advice gets lost in all the chaos.

>>3539979

If you can't draw while listening to music you have a much bigger problem...

>>3539980
this
>>3539979
quit being ridiculous lol

One of the biggest mistakes beginners make is they either only grind fundies, or they only draw what they want. You should do both at the same time, and don’t be afraid to do something outside your skill level.

>>3539979
this is simply not a biggest mistake

>>3543457
But you don't start with laplace transforms, you start with basic arithmetic which does indeed have a very low bar for entry. I don't know how a man of your intellectual/mental caliber couldn't pick up on that.

>>3540932
so where do you go if you want help with art, if not /ic/?

>>3539960
learning art after you're 20 and your ligamemes are dead
pick up something easier or more productive

they copy instead of drawing

>>3543614
>gate keeping around something this arbitrary when most of ic is probably way over that

nice meme

>>3540142
Oh I didn't hear this one before, I should try this

>>3539960
Not studying
Not doing life drawings
Hiding behind style
No pushing values

Death gripping the pencil and refusing to try overhand grip and start light and loose.

Pretending there are no need for life studies, color theory and basic fundamental techniques when doing digital and refusing from traditional medias.

>>3540229
>having a habit of outlining everything
What do you mean? I love working with lines, I can't imagine not having an outline to my work because, it would be a painting then?

>>3540338
>I should design two characters a month from a random location/time period + a prop or a hideout for each
Shit this is a good idea

This is a really helpful thread, thanks guys!

One of the biggest issues beginners make is conditioning themselves to have their hands held throughout the process. A lot of them look to ic/an instructor/a friend constantly for critique and advice, when really what they're looking for is someone to hold their hand throughout the process.

Getting advice and critique is important, mind, but what these people want is "in-depth" advice and "deep critique" constantly, and it stifles their process because they never learn it on their own.

Studies show that people who learn late more often than not have anal retentive issues and more often than not want their mom's finger up their backdoor rather than loosen up themselves.

>>3543614
You are shitposting but
>mfw 23 and shit art
>mfw all the artists I look up to on social media are mostly younger than me but so much better and made it
>mfw I wasted the time advantage I had on them to procrastinate, but they were smarter and got gud and now i eat my liver in jealousy and regret
NEVER AGAIN
NEVER FUCKING AGAIN
NO MORE VIDYA NO MORE BULLSHIT

>>3543681
Thats nothing, I am 34 and see kids 15y drawing better than me.
In my defence I never drew a lot and started learning fundies only like a year ago but still, I wonder if I should hear this dudes advice.>>3543614

>>3543675
I've noticed that people will give "deep critique" on /ic/ that basically boils down to "every thing is wrong" without saying that. I think that discourages a lot of people because they don't know where to start to fix the problem.

And likewise you will have the person who gets that critique and keeps trying to fix the same picture when they should have just moved on.

>>3543693
It's rough but if that is what you want to do then don't quit
I hate what I did to myself but I won't let it stop me, I am now working harder than ever to reach my goal because it's my dream and I won't give it up

>>3543693
>>3543681

so how far are you both now. any art pics

>>3543709
I'm the 23 fag
I'll post work when i get home if you're interested

Drawing in digital

>>3543693
>>3543703
Even "prodigies" weren't very good in the beginning and their work is heavily cherrypicked. I'm 28 and burned out on art progress while going back to college, while I was there I found out the work of the average 20 year old in the art department is honestly way worse than the moeblobs in /alt/. You are seeing rare exceptions online, most people are shittier than you for how much time you've put in. Just look at fetish art.

>>3540247
I believe that this is a result of a rigid way of thinking, you use logic to guide your steps and it gives you an edge in mathematics, programming, etc... but if you can't turn it off it holds you back and I feel like I had the same problem as well

>>3543759
>at the age of 13
Yeah... he is still better than me at the age of 34...

>>3543709
I am fairly shit, I cant draw proportional human if it on anything but eye level, my anatomy is just the general concept that most people have few limbs and I gave up on ever drawing a human looking face.

Some stuff I draw looks ok, most of it looks like absolute and utter shit.
>Pic related, my ok'ish looking stuff.

>>3541386
Or you just lack the mental capability and intelligence to comprehend and accomplish multi-tasking at all.

>>3543816
You're better than the average art student half your age. Congrats. Most places don't even teach perspective on the level that the average torrent here has. Portraits apparently require grad school. You can't judge yourself by exceptions.

I'm not any good, but it's not like I've been drawing with any regularity for more than a year and a half all together over the past 10 years.

Just they don't practice xd

>>3540447
Even an apple would be difficult. I remember when I started Keys to Drawing and one of the first exercises was to draw a pepper from memory, then to do it from reference. The pepper I drew from memory looked ok...until I looked at a pepper and saw how incredibly basic and symbolized my memory pepper was. BOTH reference and imagination need to be practiced

>>3543822
post your work

>>3540646
NGMI

Not keeping their old drawings so they can see how much they had improved. Losing a great source of motivation.

>>3540756
Craig Mullins also said it

>>3540148

>guy asks how to render like pic rel
>ic: work on your fundamentals
>guy clarifies that, again, he cares not about the fundamentals involved, but rather the rendering


wow o.O

>>3544126
nigga how do you render without know how to convey form

>>3544132

good point desu

>>3539960
Posting here.

>>3544126

It's like someone asking how to do a trick shot in pool without knowing how to hold a cue and how a ball moves when you hit it at a certain angle.

The fundies inform the rest of it. Good rendering means you need to know values, color theory, form, edge control, brush economy, etc.

Giving up and not finishing what they start.

Seriously. This has always been a huge problem for me, because I always thought "why should I even try if it's going to look like shit?" That's the thing about it. Why does it look like shit? What artist are you comparing your work to? Imitate them. What is it that they are doing that works so well? You will end up with headaches and a lot of frustration, but getting out of your comfort zone is what will depress you and make you learn the most at the same time.

Also, the best studies are those that are done with a goal in mind. You will remember how to draw that stupid hand that gave you so much trouble and made you look for many references much better than a thousand studies that you did just to pass the time.

Just start actually drawing and painting things. Try different compositions. Why doesn't this color work? Why does the furniture in this room look so off?
It's okay to follow some steps to get a grip on the basics, but never limit yourself or say that "you are not allowed to do x thing yet". How the fuck are you gonna learn color if you never try it and get yourself stuck in a phase?
Just do it, really. Have some cool idea in your head? Try translating it to paper. Do some research about it (if you want to draw a samurai character, you will need to know how to draw historical Japanese clothing. Is there a Japanese castle in the background? You'll have to research that too). Enjoy what you're drawing. It's great to do some "serious" studies time to time, but you are doing them for a reason. Why would you waste your money buying flour, sugar, eggs from the market if you're not going to make a cake?
Stop being scared of failing.

>>3544364
>Stop being scared of failing.
As a somewhat beginner I can confirm fear of drawing is real
Sometimes I think of something I wanna try drawing and I have the sudden urge to not even try because it scares me I will fail, that i am not ready to tackle that. It is fear
However now that I really want to improve I resist that urge and draw it anyway

>>3544364
Word

Drawing for the sole-purpose of "making it"

You probably won't ever be the 1% of artists who make a living wage solely through their art.

Draw for fun and see if anything happens but have realistic expectations. Get a job that will provide for you.

>>3539960
Every time you put pencil to paper, you better make one masterpiece or don't draw at all.

>>3540756
>>3544116
Well, Anonymous is telling you to do otherwise

>>3543693
man like what's the point? go pro? it's too late
draw for fun? if it was fun you'd have been doing it your whole life already
as an adult, you'd be ashamed to tell people you draw at that level, so it's like you don't even have a hobby

>>3547378
> if it was fun you'd have been doing it your whole life already

You can discover things you enjoy doing later in life. In fact some things are not very fun at all until you get past the initial hump. So some people might not have enjoyed doing something at a younger age, but at a later age when they've developed more discipline they can scale some obstacles and enjoy doing something later in life.

>>3543693
just do what you want, if you really wanna draw then draw. If you stop and wanna draw again in 5 years then youre gonna be like "man why didnt I keep drawing 5 years ago, I would be so good by now"

>>3539978
>they don’t or cant do studies
>They don't
Me t bh. Been getting into it recently but still lifes fill me with the fear of death's nutsack.

>>3543693
nah keep on working dont live in regret one day cause you gave up ive been doing this art thing for a few years now and i still suck but i wont stop until i'm dead cause i love being able to draw out my ideas and seeing them slowly evolve over time so don't give up

studying loomis

>>3540338
I am currently dealing with this, I can agree. If I go and try to draw a human body, even looking at an anatomy reference with all the muscles, my work still feels flat because I don't know much about giving it the correct volume besides some parlor tricks.
I'm gonna have to dab into the Drawabox course again to check out some perspective and elipse exercises, but I'm trying to avoid to get too far into it since I don't want to be the guy drawing dozens and hundreds of boxes for the next months. I'll just take what I need.

>>3540115
Rational poster saves the thread.

>>3547378
Shit outlook. You do any activity that requires self-improvement because you want to expand your capabilities and horizons. New activities bring new opportunities and interactions. Maybe you want to draw more and get good so you can enter local art contests or online ones. Maybe you want to eventually create your own story and draw it as a manga or comic book. Any activity opens your doors. Feeling like you're unable to learn is actually the worst thing you can do to yourself. I'm a CS major and retaking my fundamentals. You are only good at anything if you work on it. At work I do little programming and more system design and implementation. Lots of distributed systems. So I have to go back to my fundamentals to sharpen them for my interviews coming up. I do yoga. You always go back to your fundamentals in yoga especially because your body is at stake when you do it. And then you build back up to your advanced skills. In art, it's no different whatsoever with how you approach it. Just because you were busy earlier in life with likely plenty of other things, now your time usage has shifted as an adult so you can make time to accomplish things you didn't have time for earlier. You can't have that mindset. Many successful businesses are started by people who were later in life. Some learned about how to run a business on the side, others did it at their job. There's a lot of opportunity and things in life. Never say I'm done because when you're dead you won't have to.

>>3539960
Thinking that not drawing and uploading art as an adolescent means you can't get good now.

Following the path of an artist who arrived somewhere completely different than where you want to go. Just because they were successful at what they did doesn't mean they can teach you how to be successful at what you want to do.

>>3539960
believing their talentless asses can actually make art

>>3551928
crab lol

they ask dumb questions on image boards instead of drawing

>>3543594
You can look up your favorite artist and contact them directly. The worst thing possible thing is they won't reply.
You could also grab 2-6 artists at your skill level from facebook, ic, dA or any other place and set up your own small study group.

>>3540910
I dunno about you but I have tons of terrible drawings with perfectly correct anatomy from the days I didn't know how to study. It's 'simple to complex', the closest thing to a rule in the world of art.

>>3540759
/thread

avoiding the thing that will actually make you better be it copies, perspective etc.

>>3539960
Most beginners don't realize that drawing is a craft and requires both practical training and routine as well as theoretical education. They see someone on youtube quickly draw a beautiful picture seemingly without any preparation or reference and think that drawing is something that just happens when you think of an outcome and pick up a pencil.
That mindset is just as naive as thinking that a magician just does his tricks on the fly without any preparation or training.

>>3540181
What's wrong with draw with jazza

>>3554255
is that a serious question or am i being memed?

>>3554547
I'm new here, I do not know what's wrong with it, am I being memed?

>>3554553
Jazza is a scrub and he shouldn't be making "tutorials", alongside some other meme teachers like sinix, istebrak, moderndayjames, Aaron Rutten...
Don't take advice from people under the age of 40 since they don't know shit

>>3554560
>istebrak
Why does anyone look up to her? She seems way overly entitlted and opinionated for the quality of work and instruction I've seen of hers.

>>3554560
Okay I understand, thank you!

>>3554560
>sinix
He's pretty good. I thought his Anatomy Quick Tips were helpful in drawing certain parts from imagination.

>>3554560
>sinix
>meme teacher
I hate you

>>3555555
it's coming

>>3555284
you'll see things clearer once you become better...

>>3540326
Wow anon ur so cool

In which order would one go about learning the fundamentals of drawing?

>>3556339
1 hr proportion
1 hr anatomy
1 hr perspective
1 hr gesture

you gotta make some time and stick to the schedule, later on you'll find out yourself how to go on, what to learn etc...

>>3556367
how do you directly study proportion? wat

>>3556367
alright then.

>>3556395
http://lmgtfy.com/?t=i&q=basic+human+proportions

>how do you directly study proportion
are you fucking retarded m8

>>3556444

that's literally anatomy tho. the word that is proportion implies a lot more than that

>>3556367
what if, what if you rolled that together and spent 4 hours drawing dynamic figures in perspective

>>3556395
Look at objects and measure their proportions

>>3539978
>>3540079
A good practice method is to first draw from your imgination and then draw again using a ref

>>3539978
>cant do studies
How do i do studies

>>3556556
thats good too

>>3539960
>Taking every shred of criticism a personal attack or gospel.
Try to distinguish people who actually want to help you from people who don't give a shit. Don't immediately dismiss someone's critique if you get personally offended. There is no objective way of doing this. Just try growing thicker skin. It's going to be hard, but it's better than curling up into a ball or being vindictive. You know what we get with that attitude? Tabbes and Spechie.

>>3559981
How to grow thicker skin?

>>3543002
>I want to improve but grinding studies is painfully boring.

Why did you get into drawing and why do you want to improve?

>>3559988
Lower your ego? Don't act like you have to be the very best or that you have no reason to improve?

>>3543693
>>3543681
With internet access being so easy to obtain these days its no wonder kids are more talented. When I was 13 I didnt even have a computer and I wasnt allowed to go to the library. The Only art references I had were from the school library and all they had were how to draw horses and how to draw dogs books. Now in the future it literally takes half a second to Google instructions to follow to progress yout art gains significantly.
It just makes sense that the younger generations are more talented than people even over the age of 20. Not even meaning to soubd like an angry boomer.

>>3544364
>>3544567

As a beginner, I suffer from this as well. Similarly, I find that if I spend too much time on a piece I end u not finishing it...

>>3554560
Any recommendations?

You're not going to avoid mistakes. The best way is to know better, and you won't know better until you make those mistakes.

>>3539960
Drawing shitty anime characters 24/7 and then complaining that their art teacher hates them in a animated storytime video on YouTube.

>>3559981
DeviantArt summarized.

>>3540021
>>3540025
>>3540048
>>3540449
>>3540459
>>3540646
>>3540653
>>3540743
>>3543286
>>3543469
>>3543488
>>3543515
Look at all these angry assblasted retards.

Enjoy your much slower gains.

>>3540923
sauce on pic related?

>>3544567
I have this too. I feel like if I try and draw an image I really really like and I fail, I will be so disappointed by my failure that I'll cringe if I even look at my reference again.

>>3560806
Is everyone on this board mentally ill?

>>3560812
bunch of weak faggots crying over "muh fear of drawing"

this is what being raised by single mothers does to a society. estrogens in our food and water and the lack of strong male authority figures has hatched some thin skinned whiny bitches scared of scribbling some shit on some printer paper, in fear of being criticized and paralyzed by their realization that they have to put in goddamn WORK and TIME to get good results.

fuck you anime faggots, next thing you'll say is to unban furry.

I bet I could fuck everyones gf on this board infront of their eyes and they would just watch in fear because i would punch your teeth out

>>3539960
i think the main thing would be that you need to learn to walk before you can fly.

like you should learn a normal method before you start trying to do amazing bravura brushwork. like they used to say of rembrandt that he can use one stroke where most painters would need 5. well you need to be able to do it the 5 way before you can be rembrandt, which is actually demonstrated by his career, if you go through his work from early to late you can see him develop from a polished look into the bravura brushwork he's known for.

>>3560832
sorry about the phrasing, bit tired(and on soothing drugs)

>>3560838
Are you soothed?

>>3541386
since when is hearing music multi-tasking? do you sperg out while driving with the radio on? lmao

>>3560827
What the fuck

>>3554560
What's wrong with moderndayjames?

>>3560851
t. feminine brain

>>3560832
The problem is that there isn't a standard "normal" way of drawing that beginners can find online. So they get lost in a sea of following what others recommend which usually isn't good advice. In other hobbies or arts you can point to a definitive source, drawing/painting is much more of a journey.

>>3560827
>I bet I could fuck everyones gf on this board
Why fuck my gf when you could fuck ME, big boy? ;x

>>3539960
>Not doodling enough
>Not watching images or video material (reference)
>Not questioning
>Taking yourself too seriously
>Thinking sketchbooks (or any art supplies) are relics that only must be used for "good art"
>Comparing to other artists
>Not experimenting
>Thinking that you have to make it
>Thinking that there is such a thing as "best art"
>Not studying fundamentals
>Thinking that art can't be a career
>Abiding to "rules"
>Being afraid of making mistakes
>Making excuses when receiving criticism
>Being too centered in "one true kind of art"
>Fanaticism regarding other artists
>Thinking that "cheating" is a thing
>Thinking you have to be "good enough" to do digital art
>Thinking you need top notch gear to do digital art
>Thinking you need certain artists brushes to do good art
>Not planning
>Underestimating the immense power of composition
>Being here.

And the list goes on and on.But this is what I came with from the top of my dome.

Source: Being in all those places.

>>3561632
based saikaposter

>>3561685
>Thinking you have to be "good enough" to do digital art
People actually believe this?

Beginner here, is it a mistake to get stuck on pen and paper? I mean, I'm still learning, but I get the feeling my drawings won't ever look professional this way.
Do I eventually have to scan them and go digital to render them and that's another month of learning a new skill? Or do some people just take a picture of their pen drawing and get popular with that?

>>3539960
buying a shitty chink tablet instead of a used Wacom

>>3562779
Yeah, some think that traditional is the "honest" and true way to get good. Therefore also think that digital is like cheating your way to the "top".

>>3562819
More like drawing has a massive attrition rate in the first 3 months and there's no point in buying a tablet unless you've already drawn enough to have a reason to. It's mid life crisis bullshit like when some paunchy old fart drops 3 grand on camera gear and does nothing but go out and take overcooked landscape photos twice a year.

>>3562784
There is a bigger mistake underlying there.
If redoing linework is a chore, that's because you still don't have a true grasp of your work.

Besides that, in a professional work environment you will be asked to redo things a lot and daily.
You need to start drawing in phases in which you will ask for approval in order to continue before going on with a piece that wont work and then face the fact that you will have to redo a big pile of work or will have to completely discard it.

If you want to get professional, face it like a construction in which you will define every phase (composition, sketch, values, color, render, details) having feedback from a peer, a friend, a client or you in between every one of them so you can address any issue before it becomes a major problem. That way you will build up what most employers consider a very desirable set of skills, work on your communication skills and your resilience when getting critique or feedback. The rest will come with time and hard work.

Regarding scanning and other stuff. Experiment and find the method that works the best for you.
If you feel you can convey your ideas easy and fast on paper for then working on them digitally later, go that way. But don't stop trying to figure out an effective workflow and don't overestimate nor underestimate any tool or process. After all there are no rules just tools.

>>3562825
tablets make your mistakes a lot more forgiving and when you start out you'll be making a lot of them

>>3562858
Not really, because it's already a different position from writing and looking directly at what you're writing, and configuring pressure for comfort is not something people figure out immediately either.

>>3540247
My nigga, this what I been saying

>>3539960
Are doing the boxes and stuff like that really important? I always see other artists just doing a super rough drawing and work from there.

>>3554560
>Don't take advice from people under the age of 40 since they don't know shit
Especially if it is on a anonymous imageboard.

>>3562935
Noob here but IMO, those are really fucking important right after the gesture.
Everything from humans to objects can be simplified to boxes, even circles and ovals as well as complex shapes in perspective are boxes.

Not only this but when it comes to perspective, boxes are everything since, once again, circles, spheres, cylinders, cones, everything is a derivative of the box, and boxes just happen to play with perspective whether its 1point or fisheye, fucking perfectly.

When you draw a gesture of a human figure, you show flow and motion through smooth lines of gesture but how limbs are related to body and how they are positioned in space, you show through gesture.

So yeah, you better learn those boxes man, there will be a time when you might not need them for most stuff but, right now, you might really want to use them just to understand complex shapes and perspective better.

>>3562935
Noob here but IMO, those are really fucking important right after the gesture.
Everything from humans to objects can be simplified to boxes, even circles and ovals as well as complex shapes in perspective are boxes.

Not only this but when it comes to perspective, boxes are everything since, once again, circles, spheres, cylinders, cones, everything is a derivative of the box, and boxes just happen to play with perspective whether its 1point or fisheye, fucking perfectly.

When you draw a gesture of a human figure, you show flow and motion through smooth lines of gesture but how limbs are related to body and how they are positioned in space, you show through construction which is boxes.

So yeah, you better learn those boxes man, there will be a time when you might not need them for most stuff but, right now, you might really want to use them just to understand complex shapes and perspective better.

>>3563699
Oh, don't get me wrong I know how to do boxes. I'm just bored/tired of doing them and seeing if there was an alternative.

>>3539960
Drawing from the shoulder

The biggest mistake is:
not having a real job and doing art just as a hobby

>>3540749
There are artists that will help you out with an art concept.
They're just rare on /ic/

Don't frequent /ic/. I love weeb drawings but I don't understand /ic/'s taste.
I didn't know Sakimichan nor Ruan jia etc till I knew them here. Are they really your goal? You have a terrible taste.

Thinking that book alone will make you good.
Thinking that you'll learn or see the same fundamental only once.
Thinking that you'll become good at drawing objects/form by only drawing countless boxes and not putting those boxes in practice and constructing those objects/forms.
Not doing still lives.
Not drawing from imagination.
Studying fundamentals mindlessly and not studying things that you should improve on your drawings from imagination.
Thinking that Loomis is non ironically a meme, but at the same time thinking that Loomis is a God tier source and not a beginner one.

>>3566240
how do you expect i will know what to do
if all i know is what you tell me to
don't you?
I can't tell you how to make it
no matter what I do how hard i try
I can't seem to convince my self
I'm stuck on the outside

This has been said before but drawing from photos is a big one.
It's a sneaky pit. You don't realize you're in it until it's too late, you've wasted too much time and you have to run double to make up for it

If i were smarter, I would have USED photos, not literally depended on them for my lifeblood. But you see, to beginners, it's so easy. All you need to do is put effort into tracing by eye which is hard enough already, and voila, all of a sudden you have something that looks like something else on paper, which you made. There's satisfaction, and that satisfaction convinced me that this is what you 'do.'

Turns out you have to actually use your head while drawing. Herp derp

>>3566731
In conclusion, do you recommend drawing from photos or not?

>>3566952
without experience? no.

>>3566240
/ic/ values technical skill which is why they dislike anime drawings and hail over rendering, they see over rendering as peak art e-penis when anime art can look aesthetically pleasing and take skill.

I'm not into weeb art but i still dislike hyper rendering it just looks weird

>>3567152
I value you.

>>3540285
Lol if you think everything else is linear learning. Almost no field that can be studied deeply is linear. I used to work in math academia, to read ANY paper in my (admittedly esoteric) field you had to know the contents of multiple advanced graduate level textbooks, and NONE of them were well motivated (meaning you didn’t really understand what was going on at a deep level), until you knew the material in a large percentage of them. Imagine as a beginner having to learn say perspective, anatomy, and lighting, but none of them clicked or even made sense individually until you had mastered the techniques of all three. Like you apply the principles you learn but it does not make the picture look any better until you’ve mastered the others. The synthesis was beautiful as fuck but became too hard for my stupid brain to keep up with after a while.

>>3543223
Music and science are just as nebulous to learn if you want to get to be a pro and aren’t following a laid out curriculum. Similarly Art becomes not so nebulous when you have someone guiding you.

>>3543681
Just live your own fucking life and get better st art for yourself because you like it.

Jesus, the obsession on this board with “making it” is childish as fuck

>>3547378
There’s no data on this fact one way or the other, but from talking to people I suspect that the vast majority of people don’t do the things they enjoy the most (the things that bring them the most joy while they are doing it). They do the things that come easiest—that come automatically without much thought—or they do the things they’ve convinced themselves that they like due to insecurities, societal pressures, etc. People create inauthentic identities for themselves, convinced they like doing things when they really just like the idea of someone who does those things (usually influenced by romanticized ideas, or greed for fame/money). A lot of people dont realize they really enjoy certain things until much later in their lives. Heck, a lot of people go into art who don’t actually enjoy the process, just the idea of producing good art makes them feel cool, or they like the idea of being artsy. Those people will always end up burning out. If you like the process of doing it and improving, it doesn’t really matter that you’re not going to make it.

>>3543816
Pick yourself up a copy of "Drawing the head and hands, redraw every image once looking directly at the object (no tracing) then once only referencing if you forgot something from the first attempt, then make 1-3 new images using stuff you learned from the copy.

I went in 6 months from "I literally can't draw a face" to "I can draw good looking faces from imagination trivially, I just suck at drawing YOUR face", which was huge gains for me.

>>3543816
Copy this book page by page everyday. It took me a whole year but now I can draw men and women from 50s hair style and make up.
https://archive.org/details/andrew-loomis-drawing-the-head-hands

>>3539960
they think copying = cheating. it is if you try and pass it off as your own but i mean copying things you like to learn from them. i wish i had realized that copying is the best and fastest way to improve sooner

>>3540008
>shortcuts and delusional secrets.

hits home..