/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>gesture drawing is not that important. Perspective > Form >>>> Gesture. Good gesture comes from well executed form, good anatomy comes from knowledge and form.
>good style = good shape language
>drawing from your shoulder is not that important. Drawing fast and loose vs slow and "correct" is a personal preference. I think that artist often prefer fast and loose because it's easier in a sense. Slow drawing comes from a lot of practice + muscle memory
> drawing skill = knowledge + muscle memory.
Knowledge (anatomy, form, etc.) > muscle memory, but muscle memory is what helps you to be consistent.

>>3513361
Also
>Riven Phoenix is not a great artist, but his apporach is great. If you take it as him showing you how to LEARN anatomy, not how to draw anatomy, he's great. Just use other books and resources (Richer, Bammes etc.), but apply his learning workflow.
>Loomis books CAN be helpful, but not nearly
as much as more modern books like Robertsons How to Draw and Hamptons Design and Invention. Struttura Uomo is also great.
>Modern artist tend to work like product designers, so classical approaches are often not that useful (Proko, Vilppu). Again,
(basic knowledge of) perspective > form (> line quality, muscle memory) >>> gesture.

>>3513374
For example, onezukabin has a similar approach as Riven Phoenix.

>>3513361
>>gesture drawing is not that important. Perspective > Form >>>> Gesture. Good gesture comes from well executed form

yikes

>>3513342
>gesture drawing is not that important

oh boy, you are yet about to have a GREAT epiphany on gesture.
you are probably still in a phase of learning perspective and anatomy basics, but let me tell you this: learning to draw and actually finishing a piece in a professional manner and efficient workflow have VERY different priorities

>>3513385
Nigga why did you (you) me?

>>3513342

If you wanna gain a feeling for light and shadow placement it's way easier to draw on grey paper and you use white pencil for light, instead of leaving out the spots you want lit.

it's a certain style of course but with grey paper you don't have to think about whitespaces beforehand, hope this makes sense

>>3513389
whoops, didn't intend to disturb your chakras, I meant >>3513361

>>3513361
>he thinks good gesture will come to him out of thin air
Idk anon, goos gestures make everything so much easier, at least for me

>>3513374
But proko outs a big emphasis on perspective, he doesn't teach it, but it's exactly how he draws, constructing forms from basic shapes in perspective.

>>3513401
The thing is gesture comes naturally. Doing scribbles like Proko and Vilppu just does not help.

>>3513401
try drawing stuff without the gesture phase. At first it will look awful, but it'll get better and "gesture" WILL come naturally.

>>3513468
>>3513479
Well, I don't do scribbles and I've never seen proko or vilppu stuff. Does that mean my gestures are coming naturally? honestly asking, i feel the term gesture is kind of ambiguous, all I know is that it captures action, or is there a correct way™ of gesturing?

>>3513468
>Vilppu
>scribbles

You’re gonna need to post your work, shitter.

>>3513361
>>gesture drawing is not that important.
post your work so we can laugh and tell you to fuck off with the misinformation.

>>3513342
I'll tell you the biggest greatest epiphany I've had. You better hear you dirty millenial:

>just draw. Heh.

>no one draws texture digitally, they photobash
>your eraser is a great mark maker
>develop the entire thing big to small, none of this do the eye first shit
>draw light not objects

>>3513519
This thread isn't me asking for answers for improvement. I'm just wondering if any others have had epiphanies that were as dumb as mine.

I'm drawing right now you boomer. But not like right now right now because I'm typing this sentence but I will be drawing again while you're typing right now so you can't say I'm not drawing because I'm typing because I actually am.

Hale proportions based on cranium are way better than Loomis' head based proportions.

>>3513526
>develop the entire thing big to small, none of this do the eye first shit
yeah that's honestly a good thing to realize early on, you must lay down the idea at the start. it makes the process much easier and the end result much better

>>3513361
>>gesture drawing is not that important.
the state of this miserable board lmao

>>3513526
>none of this do the eye first shit
I can't decipher this part pls.

Otherwise, great advice.

>>3513681
He's talking about people who draw eyes first on faces. Then they draw the head around it. He's saying you shouldn't do that.

>>3513374
Proko Vilppu Hampton Huston Bridgman all simplify the human body into boxes cylinders and spheres. How is that not useful in learning perspective and design?

>>3513730
I think he's trying to say that simplifying is is important but gesture isn't. Personally, I think gesture can help greatly if you want your characters to look more alive, but form is what makes the object look 3D (as in thinking like a sculptor)

>>3513849
>form is what makes the object look 3D (as in thinking like a sculptor)

I guess you don't sculpt. Most sculpting starts with a wireframe armature that is very similar to a gestural drawing. The pose is the most fundamental part of the sculpt.

>>3513849
Yea I always draw gesture then structure/volume as it makes my drawings more fluid alive and unified.
OP is saying Proko/Vilppu is not that useful because modern artists work like product designers. The thing is they all use geometric shapes to build their drawings so I disagree with OP's point.

>>3513866
I see your point. Well, in digital sculpting you usually don't use a wireframe. At least I don't

>>3513949
>Well, in digital sculpting you usually don't use a wireframe

That's because much of what makes a pose believable is handled by the software, isn't it? You've got your rig and you IK and whatnot.

In any case, a distinction should be made between "making a model" and "creating a scene", in the same way that drawing a blueprint and life drawing are different.

>>3513730
The gesture is so you know where to use your autism shapes. If you build lego men first they look like they got a stick up their ass.

>>3513361
>Gesture drawing is not important

And the thread derailment award of today goes to...

Seriously though, form, perspective and gesture aren't mutually exclusive things. Your knowledge of them melds together into a cogent whole. If you have an understanding of form and perspective they are going to be present in your gesture. Gesture is putting a rough representation of the whole thing you're drawing in as few marks as possible, to capture the motion, weight and balance. It acts as a plan or framework for your drawing that you then build upon.

Trying to draw without first making a rough sketch is not going to work unless you put in a lot of grinding for it, like Kim Jung Gi.

>>3513979
Read again.
>>3513730
>>3513915

>>3513989
Exactly.

>>3513989
OP here. That\s exactly what I meant. I am not saying gesture drawing is not important, I was saying that it is not as important for a designer as it is for a classical, atelier type artist. Trying to draw without making a rough sketch first can be as hard as drawing with a rough sketch - it's a completely different workflow. I bet even KJG would have some trouble using the workflow of Vilppu just as Vilppu would have a harder time doing these direct-to-canvas drawings.

If you want to draw like KJG, construct the figure from forms and grind until your muscle memory has developed enough so you can draw the same pose/face over and over again (KJG does often have the "sameface syndrome" for his female characters). If you want to draw like Proko, Vilppu, Hampton, use a sequential approach. Or do you guys really think KJG did hundreds and hundreds of gesture drawings?

>Don’t copy things from photos or real life. Look at them. See them. Digest them, rebuild them in your brain and draw your own version of them. They might not be accurate, but the important thing is that they seem accurate.

Kim Jung Gi. I was admiring his linework and something you notice with him is, he doesn't necessarily draw the most anatomically correct line, but it feels like the best line.

But that seems obvious--it's some of the first advice you see on /ic/, Watts even says it--don't just copy--but what exactly does he mean by that? I kind of thought I knew, but it only solidified for me recently, the coming together of multiple factors including the KJG quote.

It mystified me how guys like Inoue Kiyoshirou (god-tier of doujin artists) had these crazy expressive lines with subtle variation, believable variation, and it isn't that they're consciously drawing in all the bumps and minute curve changes. Imaishi is another--virtually never draws an "anatomically correct" line, yet his stuff looks amazing.

What they're all doing, I'm sure, is "feeling it out." Sketching around, erasing a bit, letting the curves and shapes suggest themselves instead of forcing anatomy onto the page. I'm only sure because I'm just now getting to the point where it's happening with me. I'll visualize a hand, and the hand I want appears on the page almost without my conscious awareness. It's because I've been drawing 10 hands daily from life and eventually it becomes muscle memory.

I wondered why my mediocre skills hadn't deteriorated from 8 years of disuse, and it's because they were so mediocre, every drawing was pulling teeth, I was hyperaware, I never drew from feel. Now that it's becoming muscle memory, I'm sure if I stopped I'd get rusty. Like riding a bike for the first time in 5 years.

My theory is you good fast by doing a little study, A LOT of recall in actual finished pieces--at least for illustration. You have to LIKE drawing. You retain more when you enjoy it.

I like Bill Perkins explanation of gesture in NMA because it is what OP means

Gesture is like a simplification of form and the perspective it is being viewed. Specially for “organic” forms. Without knowledge of form and perspective your gestures are always going to be shitty

A reason why shit definitions like “flow” and “feeling” don’t make any sense

>>3514294
“Feeling” makes perfect sense. Think tactile feeling, not MUH FEELS feeling.

>>3514294
Feeling as in, imagining how what you're drawing would happen in your own body, and trying to use that as a guide for the drawing you're making.
For example if you're gonna draw a guy swinging a bat, you know that the swing got a curve to it, you can feel it, and you know that the pose will be at its maximum intensity when you feel it at its maximum in your own body, which is when you're putting your arms all the way back, which tenses your whole body.
You can feel how the arms are opposing what the torso is doing, you can feel where the movement starts, and if you can't do the gesture yourself. Imagine how it actually feels.
Imagine the weight of the figure you're drawing, as if it were your own.
It becomes easier the more you draw.

>>3514294
But what "flow" and "feeling" does is simplify so it makes sense that some artists use it to describe gesture. You can even use gesture in compositions to direct the eye throughout the picture.

>>3513342
>don't try to get clean lines, you naturally get them as you improve
>silhouette is the most important thing
>do studies of other artists to see how they simplify forms instead of copying photos

>>3514370
will my digital inking abilities improve on their own the more I draw finished pieces? is there any way to improve faster, tips?

>>3514389
yeah draw more
ONE COOL TRICK

your linework improves when you have a solid grasp of the forms you're drawing

>>3514396
I was referring more to dexterity itself but I guess that makes sense

>>3514096
You're not OP you stupid obnoxious faggot. Whatever makes you feel better though. Couldn't give less of a shit what people here think of me as an anonymous poster.

>>3513382
post work

>>3514362
Yep. That's exactly it. Walt Stanchfield says the same thing in his books too, afaik.

Drawing books with a focus on animation like Walt Stanchield's books, Force: Dynamic Life Drawing For Animation, and Ryan Woodward's books are the absolute best resources for gesture drawing because being able to get the figure down in a short amount of time, making it easily readable, and giving it weight and motion is the animator's bread and butter.

>>3513468
This is why Ruan Jia draws mannequins instead of human beings so often

>>3514123
That's just stylization, dude. Imaishi understands anatomy well enough to play with and break the rules in favor of expression. You can't jump straight into FEELIN' IT when you don't have any concrete knowledge knowledge of what you're FEELIN'. Generally, the better an artist gets (animators especially) the more accurate and more quick they become, they don't screw around, they get their lines down pretty much where they want them to go from the first. It takes a lot of skill and experience to get to that level.

>>3513342
>its all in the drama.
stole this from urasawa naoki no manben, he was talking about how as a mangaka, hes never "just" drawing, hes focusing on bringing out the drama of the scene.
I noticed that a lot of my favorite artists said something similar or at least clearly would have agreed.
Sounds small but this is basically when I realized what I knew I should focus on, which is huge for any artist

>>3514610
It's obviously his style and he obviously understands anatomy, that's not my point. Neither is my point that you go straight from beg to drawing from imagination like a pro illustrator or animator, the opposite in fact. That's why I mentioned muscle memory, drawing hands daily, things just now solidifying. It takes time to build up your visual memory and line confidence to a point when you can do what I'm describing.

What I'm talking about isn't being casual or lazy about the lines either. What I am talking about is sketching loosely to find or feel the form, building and iterating on it instead of expecting the first line you lay down to be magnificent. All that does is psyche you out and make for stiffer work. I guarantee all but freaks of nature like KJG do this. You can even see guys like Murata do it on stream.

>>3514613
To add to this, you can even see that Imaishi's done it in that very sketch. Very noticeable around Jakuzure's right hip/waist, where there's several weak sketchy lines. Satsuki's lower left leg is fucked even by Imaishi's standards too, but so what it's just a sketch, it doesn't have to be perfect and he would clean that up in the final. Essentially that's what this boils down to: sketching, thumbnailing, and accepting some drawings are just fundamentally flawed and you might have to ref/start fresh, but you'll get there through iteration. It's one of those things that should be obvious but I'm just now really getting it.

Anatomy, proportion, gesture, perspective, form, light, line, paint, color.

All foundation is highly important. To ignore a piece of foundation in favor of maxing out other skills would be like putting wagon wheels on a Ferarri.

>>3513342
when you go outside actually look at everything, all the forms and values and colors and how everything fits together. you can constantly build your visual library just by being observant and actually feeling how beautiful everything is

>>3513342
>Realize just because I ease everything doesn't mean it looks good

Ease? Do you mean drawing carefully?

>things looking good is more important than things being correct

>you can get better at drawing without drawing

>you can't get better at drawing without studying

>>3514798
I mean in terms of animation. Sorry I should have clarified.

>>3513342
I can absorb lessons and video tutorials better if I watch this while exercising or have any part of your body moving (stationary mini bike)

>Don't have the view at eye level.
>avoid drawing a subject from 0º or 90º (no flat angles)
>Don't draw people flat on their feet, you should see the S curve or at least a C curve
>Use rule of thirds, the most important bit dose not go in the middle.
>Before you draw a living thing, know what it is doing and where it is doing it.
>Use odd numbers of things, its more interesting.
>Don't leave the background blank or one color, at least use a shape that contrasts with and doesn't completely back the subject.

>>3513989
Is that shadman?

>all instructional materials are just a meme
>95% of artists just freewheel it

>>3514427
Well he is the OP of the debate abotu gesture

>>3516528
Wow, I'm on a cunt streak these few days. I see.

>>3514370
>>silhouette is the most important thing
?

>>3516536
in cartooning one of the important things to do is make sure all your characters Silhouettes have different, instantly recognizable shapes. Its why anime has ridiculous hair, but a better example would be the characters on Futurama

>>3513361
>gesture drawing is not that important.

disregard this entire post. my art has never improved as much as when i focused on gesture. it is the foundation of your drawing and the basic of what makes a picture appealing.

>>3513361
>drawing from your shoulder is not that important

this MUST be trolling

>>3517043
Tbh unless you work with giant canvases it isnt. The arm pivot is more than enough for most cases.

>>3516993
Team Fortress 2's character designs are also a good example of this.

>>3517224
*before hats