/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

post your work, practice 12 hours a day, NGMI

>>3463318
Good flow and paneling is all about how you lead the readers eye as they read your page.
If your composition confuses the reader in some way with weird panel or speech bubble placement than it can be improved (unless confusion was intended, of course).

>>3463318
Struggling with the exact same problem and would love new resources

>>3463420
Scott McCloud's books and Carl Potts's The DC Comics Guide to Storytelling are pretty much all you need as a foundation. It's about composition, visual connections and the "meta composition" formed by the whole of the page. Then you just play with the concepts in those books and try seeing how your favorite comics match up.

Also not all comics or manga have good panel flow. A lot of bad layouts happen because of deadlines and trash editors.

Can't give much advice, but I always look at this as a good example of panelling

>>3464028
I get the feeling people confuse paneling, cinematography, and flow, a LOT.

I've been doing a lot of research/study into this lately, I'll make a couple longer posts detailing what I've learned when I have more time tomorrow.

>>3464037
Alright, sounds good - sorry if I got them mixed up

dead thread dead?

>>3465761
ye. Anyone actually experimenting with your paneling/flow?

>>3465761
>>3466121
Sorry, I meant to post something yesterday, but I've been busy and I'm still internalizing it all.

All I can say is, look into the KiShoTenKetsu structure. Learn it, internalize it. Apply it to your story structures, both in arcs and individual chapters, but also, mangaka apply this to their individual pages (spreads, in counts of two). Each spread count should also end on a hikkigoma. Look that up for a more detailed description of what it is. Beyond that, you can get away with rather simple paneling so long as the flow of reading is easy and has very little zig-zagging.

The key then is to have VERY good cinematography, which is term a lot of people get mixed up with paneling. It's not, it's totally different. Watch videos on that, study it, internalize it. Rule of Thirds, Camera Angles, Types of Framing, Balance, and Leading Lines. These are super important and must be carefully thought out and done with PURPOSE on a panel to panel basis. Especially watch out for leading linez, and lines of motion btw, as they affect your flow. Learn to think like a film director though. 99% of visual storytelling in comics/manga is basically the fundamentals of cinema applied to a different medium.

Finally, on page composition, again, stick to the KiShoTenKetsu, and also keep the Rule of Thirds in mind on a page scale to have aesthetically pleasing pages. Try to place your focal point on one of the 4 intersection points.

Beyond thay, Read Araki's book for more detail, and Scott McCloud's Making Comics to get an idea of what other tools are available for you to use in comics, especially when it comes to the flow of time, and panel transitions.

When watching films, pay close attention to the types of shots used, and when reading manga, pay attention to the flow, while also looking out for the KiShoTenKetsu structure on individual pages.

KiShoTenKetsu is the backbone of all manga.

>>3466282
>hikkigoma
no results returned! You're making this up!

>>3466298
Work on your Google-fu:

https://www.manga-audition.com/japanesemanga101_013/

>>3466345
nice

Try to avoid doing +'s when it comes to panel layout. Try to keep each panel in T layout. I mean the space between panels. This will almost always make it easier to read your page, as a + layout is usually confusing to read.

>have this crude ass example image

I'd also suggest studying Junji, Ito. Considering he's a master at the page turn.

bump

>>3466121
that looks way too dense, imho

>>3463318
Good paneling in comics/manga is mainly about flow. You should be able to easily identify where the next panel is as you read it. One way to do this for example is like in your pic and >>3463420 by having characters face towards the next point of interest in the page. It's the same sort of technique artists use to guide the viewer's eyes around in paintings and illustrations, only instead of going around in circles, you're going in a zig-zag from one corner of the page to another.

>>3468326
Since comics/manga are all about page turning. Is there any point to putting in a ton of detail on a page?

Reading Eisner’s Comics and Sequential Art. A good overview of the subject in general, also has a good chapter on framing.

>>3471061
1. Always expect your comic will be scanned and put online if you are currently aiming for printing. Online, there isn't really a "page turn." It's an instantaneous image, which will remove any real suspense unless the person is slowly scrolling along the chapter instead of clicking through pages.

2. The amount of detail is dependent on you and your art style. The themes of your story and so on. Particularly, the aimed audience. Some people really like overly detailed images (Berserk, for example) while others will like something really simple.
What's important is that the reader can keep spacial awareness AND can properly keep a good flow while reading.
Comics and manga are ABOUT their art. Many people VERY MUCH judge a book by it's cover [art].

However, keep in mind that you have to keep proper flow style-wise. Going extremely detailed on a page while the rest of your series is extremely simple WILL stand out! Which, can sometimes be a good thing and many mangaka have used this method in their own work.

I'm kind of blabbing, so I'm not sure if what I said makes sense, but it just depends on YOU. YOU'RE SERIES. YOU'RE ART. YOU'RE TIME.
The page turn is about suspense build-up and the reveal. Whether it's simple art, barely any art, or one punch man levels of art. The page turn should always be on your mind.

It's similar to typesetting, in a way. Which you should also DEFINITELY study up on.

>>3471405
Reading Manga Poverty got me thinking about the concept of a page again recently, its something I've not really considered since reading Scott McClouds book where he contemplates the future of panels and the potential of the infinite page and whatever other things a website can enable.
Korean comics are probably the best place to look for this but I highly doubt any really use the medium in a way at all reminiscent of Eisner, most of the time its a very dull sequence of images that doesn't put consideration into how its being viewed. I'm really curious as to what could be done with that outside of a gimmick story.
I think "how its being viewed or consumed" is the crux of it, traditionally you have the page compositions and cliffhangers in a typical page layout so what and how will these elements translate into infinite scolling. Does infinite scrolling need to be fixed to one axis (most likely yes, interactivity isn't why most read id assume), A story about verticality or exploring could be adapted in an interesting way, increasing the amount of black used the further into the story. Mostly gimmick ideas, I should make some effort to see if anyone is doing this kind of work.

short version:you read good books and watch good movies

just study composition,because that's what that is.

>>3471558
This is a good example of a page with pretty straightforward paneling, but top notch cinematography. 90% of your pages will/should be like this.

>>3471548
Seems like a fairly useless concept to explore. As long as people look at it on a rectangular monitor, we always see a "page" in front of us with the beginning and an end being the limits of our field of vision or the borders of the monitor. The only difference between a regular comic page and an infinite scrolling digital comic page would be tha the latter would start getting really fucking confusing after a while for the reader. Not to mention how annoying it would be to pick up reading where you left of.

>cinematography
you guys know this term has to do with movies, not comics?
in comics it's just called composition

>>3463420
where is this from?

>>3471843
Tsugumomo

>>3471748
>being retarded

>>3471548
the reason i fucking loathe gook comics is because they insist on that smartphone view bullshit with huge amounts of empty space between each panel.

post cool panel layouts

>>3471967

>>3471968

>>3471967
>>3471968
>>3471971
I don't see what's cool about these layouts. They're all very straightforward. Someone should post the inevitable Atelier manga pages, all of which have really creative layouts. /a/ also had a good thread a couple weeks back where they posted tons of really cool manga layouts. Lemme see if I can dig it up.

>>3463318
>>3463420
There's a really good piece of advice from will eisner. A panel should be as wide as the action on display takes. Think about it like as if you were editing a movie. The alita image in the OP would be a fight scene in slow motion if it were a movie for example.

>>3471967
>>3471968
>>3471971
I guess each to their own, but I find those panels pretty confusing and hard to follow. The flow is too busy. They're too occupied with looking cool and clever that they neglect the narrative aspect.

>>3471967
>>3471968
>>3471971
>>3472070
I just now realized I was reading those from Right to Left... ffs.

>>3472063
eh, >>3472070 has a point even if he did read them wrong. there's a limit to how creative you can be a lot of the time

>>3472151
KEK
Just happened to me too

>>3472165
I didn't read them the wrong way. The guy just tagged me in his reply for some reason.

>>3471968
This looks awful, what are you talking about

>>3471558
>>3471967
This is good.

>>3471968
>>3471971
This is garbage. Especially the Harry Potter one.

>>3468326
Hergé, for the page turn, is a classic

>>3466121
>>3471558

Felice di trovare sempre più terroni qui.

never forget that panelling is part of the style. Classic panelling won't fit all stories, all artists, especially ones more ported toward illustration

>>3472947
for example, this is the peak of appealing comic page panelling for an illustrator-typed artist.

>>3472951
compare it to a typical cape artist spread.

>>3463420
The blurred boobs in the second panel made me chuckle

>>3472952
with color to be fair, but it's quite clear the artist did not compose with color as a main component as cape character colors are imposed and very difficult to superpose

>>3472951
>>3472952
Here I see mostly a difference of focus: setting/setpiece for the first, and characters for the second, which makes sense given each source's style of storytelling

>>3472964
Though it's not that much of a setpiece for the Castaka one (Das Pastoras really outdid himself in the entirety of the comic, it's full of mindblowing pieces), compared to what a spread in a cape comic means in terms of rarity, yes, a large-scaled fight for a very character driven story can't use the same focus. Jodorowsky's scenarii are epic and intensity-driven, and so more suitable to spreads.
My point was indeed that storytelling and art style go together, and so some types of panelling.

>>3472952
Superhero comics hardly qualify as comics anymore these days because they're crafted without any thought of panelflow or composition. It's basically garbage.

>>3473024
I imagine more time has been spent on it than the usual pages since it's a climax.

>anymore these days
the industrial from of comic is an old institution, regardless of the part of the world. Capes have always been terribly mercantile.

>>3472951
>panelling
I'm not sure you can really count a spread or illustration as a panel? It basically exists in isolation whereas panelling would imply a sequence of images on a page. I realise that argument is easy to attack and borders on semantics.
>>3472947
I find this sort of thing to be dull to read, they're beautiful to look at as stand alone images but as pages I think they fail, part of it may be because of how dry and disconnected the text is and how little the content of the panel impacts the page in general. A matter of preference perhaps, I like images to take the space they need to be it through bleeding off or shapes but ultimately they function as a whole not just as sterile blocks of fantastic artwork.

>>3473064
Of course a spread is a panel. One giant panel. It exists as such because it is found inside of an album where multiple images per page is the rule. It is simply the exception.
As for Druillet, it's true that some of his artwork, including what I posted, suffer from that dryness (especially here, since the text is straight taken from the novel, defining the art as little more than illustration), but one of his gimmick is to compose pages as a whole. Maybe that's more to your liking ?
But I see what you mean, Druillet's a bit stifling, very full and contracted. There's no breathing, and it goes with the stories and mood, it's a default made perfect. I like it. Again, different ideas really do not translate the same in panelling and composition, in addition to the line and color style

>>3473232
My point with a spread is that they can get away with not being so mindful of the before/after or where next. They often get used to treat you to a spectacle but im being pedantic as there are plenty of spreads that only really work with context.
That page certainly is more to my liking, it works well. That sort of aesthetic seems to be more of a western choice, the manga Shinmanami Tasogare has been doing more experimental layouts but I can't think of many more that really push panels aside and try to go for more of an emotional approach.

>>3473286
One thing that came to mind is this
https://youtu.be/3cb9GCCVCzY?t=1616
I love Daisuke Igarashi, his Witches especially. I want his current manga translated so hard too.

>>3473293
ah damn, time didn't work. Start it a bit before 27:00

>>3472946
popolo di artisti e navigatori

Oh boy do I have a collection for you guys

>>3473306
movement and clarity

>>3473308
geometry

>>3473310

>>3473313
gradation

>>3473316
panel =/= prison

>>3472947
I've been reading keichi koike's "Ultra Heaven" and it's wild

>>3473323
neat

>>3473317
A good comic should read as a movie. Watch lots of good movies, when thinking about what to draw, imagine your comic has a movie adaptation - what comes next, a detail shot, a close up on the hero, a wide scene..?
Everything conforms to clarity. If a line brakes the movement of the eye across the page, from top to bottom, from left to right, then TAKE IT OUT.

Watch this vid and sub to Every frame a painting on yt. Also Vilppu has a very good mindset - you're using line like a drummer uses rhythm to guide the viewer through. Feel it and you'll make your strokes more dense and diagonal when a dramatic shot is around the corner. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVXqbteiflY

>>3473330
that kenji tsuruta ? I liked Emanon, what's this ?

>>3473331
It is, but your guess is as good as mine. I just save pages that have a good vibe

>>3473323
very

>>3473325
very

lots of psychedlic imagery moving from panel to panel

sorta reminds me satoshi kon's old manga albeit much more abstract

>>3473351
Shame it's not finished.
When HxH is good its such a joy to read as a manga.

>>3471587
>but top notch cinematography
explain. nothing about any of the panels screams extraordinary composition. it's all pretty standard.

>>3473381
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWQQgZh9EyE

Rule of thirds, leading lines, framing that conveys emotion, there is a depth of field in the panels with multiple planes (foreground, background, and middleground), nice variety of close ups, middle shots, and wide shots. Simple standard stuff is what you SHOULD be doing, and something most amateurs totally ignore.

I'm disgusted by american comic coloring

Is this weird pillowshading with sharp shading that ruins it.

I hate it

Every time I see the black and white preview or a black-white non-colored version you can see how much of a downgrade is from the sketch

and you can tell is the coloring because the early 2000s european used watercolors and markers and they looked miles better than the murican ones, by simply using other coloring methods.

Thank jeezoos for the dutch, french and german.

>>3473440
I agree, capeshit coloring is just gross.

>>3472932
why

>>3473330
Please post more pages/advice.

>Frecnhie artist sneaks panty-shot of lolo characters

the madman

>>3473568
You don't have to draw everything. Just the things your viewer would notice if he was there.

>>3473619
Pacing is your friend. It's where your power to create calm or dangerous atmosphere lies, gradation, contrast or even humor can be conveyed by pacing. It's no different from music.

>>3473622
A blank space is not necessarily an opportunity to add more information. Sometimes it works better as a breathing space, to make detailed areas stand out even more.

Shoutout to monotoneink, he's got some good shit.

>>3473628
Similarly to animation, comic artists work with both time and space. Visualize how the character moves in a sequence and pick the frame that bests describes his action. Add another frame if it helps the pacing. There are no rules.

>>3473440
Can I see some 2000s European color comics to compare?

>>3473664
sure

>>3473672

>>3473673

>>3473677

>>3473678

>>3473685

>>3473688

>>3473692

>>3473398
>links film riot video
holy fuck. no offense man but you need to get good and move beyond standard stuff because everything you listed is so entry level when it comes to composition. Sure, it's efficient because we've become "conditioned" so-to-speak to understand what to expect with these formulas but if you actually give a shit, you'll know to break those rules so much that you never use them again. They're cancer and the very reason you don't see ANY good composition/cinematography in Hollywood cinema.

>>3473700
Watch a Hollywood film, and see how often these rules are followed, then come back and stop being retarded.

When 2 characters are facing eachother, you should always have the point of view on the same half of the action.

See >>3463420 or search 180-degrees rule if it's unclear

>>3473700
Not that guy, but you need to stop thinking like some hipster consumer and start think like an artist, a creator. There is no such a thing as "entry level" composition. Good composition is supposed to be simple, classy and clear and then you can break the rules every once in a while for a great, contrasty effect that surprises the reader. If all your compositions are flashy breaking of the rules, your comic would just read like an incoherent mess. Which is a big problem many beginners have.

>>3474028
They are in one way or another because they're just doing what they were taught.

>>3474062
>hipster
Spare me.

There IS entry level composition, it's everything you'll see in Framed Ink. Yes, good composition is supposed to be simple, I completely agree with you there but there is no aesthetic when it's Framed Ink entry level composition. It looks like everything else that uses these same rules they teach you in film school for example. "Do you want to convey this feeling? Well do this tried and true composition." It's good to know it but only to know what NOT to do. You must fully understand these rules, their limitations and then discard them and recreate with your own aesthetic rules.

This is why nothing you (not you personally) do will be remembered.

This thread went down the shitter fast when brainletts started posting random "cool" comic pages full of clutter or just fucking splash pages.

>>3474062
>Good composition is supposed to be simple, classy and clear
That's an esthetic. And even if it was the ultimate composition definition, it wouldn't be the best. No one wants to look at the same thing, wether it's the same person thorough his life, or different generations : enthusiasm matters
This page is from the first issue of metal hurlant, that redefined what you could do on a comic page for the whole world. Ask yourself why it achieved such a feat.

>>3474159
while I agree with the random comic pages in unnecessary number, I at least started a discussion with the spreads
Unlike (you)

>>3474104
Yes say all the trash, yet I watched Empire Strikes Back last week, with the sole purpose of looking out for all these different types of tools in composition, and 99% of the time, you saw intelligent use of leading lines, the rule of thirds, etc... And Empire Strikes Back is one of the most legendary films in all of cinema. Gonna do the same thing this weekend with Oldboy and Pulp Fiction.

So, rather than listen to some pretentious nobody with a retarded opinion, I think I'll follow suit by analyzing the masters of visual storytelling, and applying these concepts to my work. You've given me no reason to listen to your contrarian opinion, outside of you being contrarian. And the real kicker to how wrong and stupid you really are, is that you're referring to all these things as "rules of composition" when in fact, they're all tools given to you in order to better allow you to communicate your ideas through a visual medium. Even the video I posted which you so staunchly criticized, goes out of its way to show how upshots and downshots can be used in contradictory ways, all the while giving examples from films by Hitchcock and Kubrick.

You telling people to ignore this because "it's entry level composition" is on the equivalence of retardation as telling beginners to ignore construction because it's entry level drawing techniques, and true masters can work without construction. The fundamental concepts will carry your work into more advanced levels when mastered. But they need to be mastered and not ignored.

Honestly, what you're doing borders on the line of malicious by intentionally trying to mislead and confuse people who don't know any better. So kindly fuxk off.

>>3474195
>>3474104
Like even Araki, a professional mangaka straight up disagrees with you. He explicitly tells people to think of their shots as if it were a film, and even has a book on cinematography by Hitchcock he constantly rereferences when working. He tells people to be meticulous when thinking of how to frame each panel. Think like a film director.

Then you go and read Scott McCloud and he repeats the same thing, while goungy into the specifics.

Framed Ink, again gives tons of examples of effective composition tools, and tells you to meticulously think of every panel and how you frame it.

So unless you've got some magical secrets of this "advanced composition" that constantly breaks the fundamentals that has a visually appealing image that's clear, or better yet, give examples of work that YOU have made that conveys these concepts and how you're much better at composition than masters of visual storytelling, then go away.

>>3463318
>>3463420
See that thing with the panels canting off at an angle? Don't do that. Look at some Moebius, Otomo, Miller, etc to see what great panelling looks like.

>>3474207
Don't listen to this retard, he doesn't know what he's talking about. Especially on that second page, you can very easily see how the diagonal framing is intentionally used to lead the eye smoothly into the bottom panel.

>>3473440
Agreed, I feel bad for the poor bastards who do the pencilling. I got some of David Finch's tutorials and his work ALWAYS looks better as raw pencils. Wish some of these guys would quit capeshit and do something else with their skills, like maybe an American manga equivalent with B+W art focusing on more mature stories like noir fiction, etc.

>>3474209
>Retard

I'm not the one holding up shonen manga as an exemplar of quality.

>>3474219
But you are the idiot who thinks there's only one way to do things, and doesn't understand that different styles of paneling serve different kinds of scenes and styles of manga.

The image you posted literally has NO panelling or page composition whatsoever. Which serves that kind of story, but would be absolutely awful for an action sequence.

>>3474195
>>3474199
Drawn strips predate cinema.
While I agree with you, and cinema is a widely accepted influence on all levels of comic artists, comic is its own form of art and so can produce something unique to its medium. Thinking in terms of cinematography is nothing more than a favored constraint that produce a normated esthetic. A lovely one, certainly. Very much coming from painting, too. I'll listen to Descartes and study its origin to understand a thing rather than its use, which inform more about its current state.

>>3474221
>no panelling or page composition whatsoever
Please stop being the retard you're called out to be, you're bringing good shonen pages down with you. This sentence even contradicts the rest of your post

>>3474221
Angled panelling accomplishes nothing beyond looking bad and confusing the reader's eye. Please stop commenting like you have any kind of authority if you can't recognise world-class panel and page composition when it's presented to you.

>>3474232
One of the things that makes the panelling so incredible in Frank Miller's DKR is the rigid adherence to the grid in the early pages, until it's literally shattered by Batman overtaking Bruce Wayne's psyche.

>>3474226
>he thinks page composition = panel composition
>he thinks a 4x4 grid is particularly skillful panelling
>he thinks moment by moment transitions are impressive

You know fuck all about paneling, go away. That sequence is good because of the composition inside of the individual frames. That has fuck all to do with panelling, and everything to do with cinematography.

And the 4x4 Moment by moment beat serves the emotional drama of a traumatic scene. Use that same layout for a high octane combat sequence amd it comes out like shit.

Again, you're an amateur that barely even knows the basics and likes to pretend muh western comics > manga. When manga always wins out in fight scenes, and if your goal is to draft a fight scene, you should look at Murata or Yoshikadu over Moebius or Miller.

You don't even understand why diagonal paneling is used, and yet freely dismiss it. Either humble yourself and learn, or fuck off.

>>3474239
Once the Dark Knight has indeed returned, the entire compositional structure of the comic shifts, like a cage being opened. 16-panel grids become reserved for slower-paced scenes and exposition.

It's one of the few cape comics I'll ever praise. I struggle to think of many other comics where the artist is this in command of their medium.

>>3474239
>>3474232
Well well, didn't even get to read this till I was done. Thanks for proving my point.

>>>/co/

>>3474239
>>3474232
>>3474219
I honestly find these pages incredibly obnoxious to read. I've always hated this about western comics. Makes them more of a chore to read than manga.

>>3474240
I believe you're confused
everything in your post is attibuting to me things I didn't say. Maybe you responded to the wrong guy or did not see which post I was responding to ?

>>3474224
btw, I'm the 3474189 anon, not the taunting Tarkovsky one

>>3474244
I probably read more manga than you do, you precocious little shit. The best Japanese artists rarely stray from straight panels, even ones that are angled will tesselate with two or three others to make a square.

>>3474104
So everything any good artist has ever figured out and deemed to be efficient and worthy to write down and share with other artists is something you go out of your way to ignore? Man, I'd love to read your comic, it must literally be the worst comic ever made.

>>3463318
you have to learn to stayi in the "blob" phase longer with your art. draw a first idea, draw motion lines over it, move things around it to fit the lines better. change lines, back to 0.
don't use movies as reference too much, it's limitating more than anything, 2D art is a richer medium.

>>3468326
Don't make big panels if it doesn't have a "punchline" action in them. panel size is proportional to impact and emotional weight.
big ass panels also become really obvious crutch when artists use them on every page, it's just artificial page count inflation, shitty manga do that all the time?

>>3471971
dark blue over near-black is a composition mistake that people shoudl avoid, really.. colors have to separate space just as clearly as lineart. ESPECIALLY if you go for a no-lineart style to begin with.

>>3472958
>cape character colors are imposed
ironically, in the past there was basically "reserved colors" for both good guys and bad guys, that allowed easier composition.

>>3473330
>A good comic should read as a movie.
I disagree strongly. fuck storyboard panelling, it's lazy and tells no story because opening a door takes 3 pages. People have to learn to compact what's necessary together, a good pages has each panel being a key moment, with minimal use of animatics moments.
The european model for comics is a good example of hos to do it.

>>3474189
composition is not related to art complexity. It's only a few lines and a few shapes, no matter if you make a calart cartoon or the sistine chapel cellings

>>3474296
You mistake the simplifications used to explain compositions with the compositions themselves. Think about how the word is used in music, it cannot limit to structure.

>>3474247
Lazy reader

>>3474224
This

>>3474284
>panel size is proportional to impact and emotional weight.
Not necessarily. Christ, some of you really gotta read Scott McCloud.

Some page layouts also work better with large spacious panels. It's all a stylistic choice.

>>3474304
Or maybe your shit simply isn't that good, ever thought of that?

>>3474313
Naah, you are just a lazy simple dude whit no understanding of the medium

>>3474325
Or maybe you're shits just not interesting. Is it any wonder why comics are dying while manga is breaking records? Perhaps the one who doesn't understand the medium is you.

>>3474350
You are just ignorant, sorry

>>3474357
>no you
Grow up.

>>3474350
>Is it any wonder why comics are dying while manga is breaking records?
/Ic/ is always saying this, but I cant understand why. Are you trying to prove that your shitty moeblob drawings are actually worthy of something?

>>3474358
You grow up faggot. Learn something and stop talking out of your anus. If you like dragonball is ok, but not everything should be your shitty easy-to-read predigested thing.

>>3474357
I agree with the other guy, those panels are like looking at an upright figure neutral posture in a frontal ortho view, zero flow.

>>3474359
Can't you follow the discussion instead of trying to shift the subject?

>>3474364
Can you at least know what you are talking about before posting?

>>3474325
>Don't diagonal panel ever, this is literally how all good comics should be
>I didn't like it
>Well, that's obviously because you're a lazy reader who doesn't understand TRUE comics
You sound like a pretentious faggot to me. Moebius, Otomo and Miller all use their boxy panels for a certain effect. The whole point of Miller's rigid panelling was to create a static, fixed-rhythm, numbing effect, as you said, before Batman comes in to shake things up. Likewise for Otomo and Moebius, the adherence to rectangular panels gives a somber effect. Otomo feels like a movie, in particular.
How about you look at another extremely influential, masterful visual storyteller like Akira Toriyama? >>3464028 Of course it's not "muh srs bns grafik novel", it's lively, action-packed shonen schlock, which is exactly what dynamic panelling enhances.
If shonen-shit isn't high enough art for you, how about looking at Hayao Miyazaki, a contemporary of Moebius? There are many panel arrangements in the Nausicaa manga that are titled ever so slightly to break up the monotony.
Exactly why again must all panels be strictly rectangular? Because it sounds to me like you had an extreme hard on for one specific type of comic, noticed a surface level detail about their style, and passed it off as general advice on what is good and what it isn't.

>>3464028
DUDE LINES LMAO

>>3474362
Not that guy but low key talking shit about Akira Toriyama, who is objectively an absolute master of sequential art is really not helping your case here.

>>3474359
>/Ic/ is always saying this, but I cant understand why.
Probably because it's the truth, based on cold facts and sales numbers?

>>3474369
>truth, based on cold facts and sales numbers
this makes me sad.

>>3474365
You've been telling people different variations of "your just ignorant :)" for a while now. That in itself is fine but you're not really convincing anybody of anything.

>>3474371
Stop giving him YOUs

>>3474325
Read Scott McCloud you pretentious pleb, you clearly have no fucking clue what the fuck you're even talking about.

Diagonal panels have their purpose and they exist for a reason. Just cause you're too ignorant to understand their use, doesn't mean they shouldn't be used. That's like telling a director never to use dutch angles cause they're disorienting.

Fucking idiot.

>>3474384
Scott has a tendency to wing it. The books by Will Eisner are vastly superior and in some cases contradict Scott's book.

>>3474239
>>3474242
>>3474232
Miller's style is HEAVILY influenced by kozure okami. So much so that he wrote the foreword for the mirrored english omnibus editions.

>>3474394
Nowhere does Eisner tell people not to use diagonal panels. Are you gonna keep on acting like an idiot, or are you finally gonna admit you said something stupid, and drop the subject?

>>3474350
>Discussion is about one of the best-selling and most critically-acclaimed comics of all time from 1986
>Comparing it to the pozzed mess that is the current American industry.

Yeah, don't do that. I can't imagine there are many manga that have sold as many copies for as many decades as DKR.

>>3474416
>I can't imagine there are many manga that have sold as many copies for as many decades as DKR.
There's a lot actually.

>>3474397
Influence goes both ways, there are Japanese artists who rip panels straight from Miller's work nowadays.

>>3474401
I do believe this>>3474394 kind anon was commenting on the use of your debilitating contest adversary of Scott McCloud's book, rather than encouraging you to prove yourself once more
And I do agree that McCloud is a hazardous source of comic theory and understanding
for those who speak french
https://www.du9.org/dossier/a-propos-de-lart-invisible-de-scott-mccloud/

>>3472951
>the peak of sequential art
>it's just a single giant illustration with a gorillion figures

>appealing comic page panelling for an illustrator-typed artist
>sequential art
not even a (you)

>>3474242
>when the 30yo boomer thinks he can still be a superhero

>>3474436
>in a thread about comic panelling

just read what was said at that time, how hard is it ?

>>3474421
Yes? I wasn't debating that point you capeshit obsessed brainlet. I was simply pointing out that his stuff didn't come out of nowhere and it's interesting to look at his influences to gain a deeper understanding of his paneling techniques. Art always cross-polinates.

>>3474428
I don't speak baguette but I would be interested to hear the points summed up, because Scott always comes over as a hack who tries to explain something he himself has no deeper understanding beyond a superficial level.

>>3474401
>Nowhere does Eisner tell people not to use diagonal panels
I didn't make that claim, I was just getting into this discussion to remind you that Scott McCloud is not the final authority on comics and infact Eisner's books are a valuable source of theory and learning because he's actually a world famous comic artist with an actual career before he wrote his books.
But if we're talking about panels. Eisner spends a lot of time explaining in depth about the importance of panels and framing and directing the readers' eyes and it's very insightful.The book is Will Eisner-Theory of Comics and Sequential Art.

>>3474195
>Empire Strikes Back, Oldboy, Pulp Fiction
Man if you're going to tout good films and their cinematography could you not choose fucking flicks from r/movies? Now before you start crying about the whole reddit meme like I know you're itching to do, just know that anyone who has any actual knowledge of world cinema wouldn't take you seriously with those films you just listed. And to make matters worse you refer to it as "masters of visual storytelling" which is the most cringe and ignorant thing I've heard all week and is honestly insulting.

>The fundamental concepts will carry your work into more advanced levels when mastered. But they need to be mastered and not ignored.
This is literally what I said you dolt.
"You must fully understand these rules, their limitations and then discard them and recreate". It's the absolute, most base amount of knowledge you must possess but god help you if you don't develop it further into something that suits you and your aesthetic. Imagine being that generic nobody artist who uses all the most standard and fundamental rules and "tools", whatever you want to call this shit. You'll have no artistic identity.

The best compositions can't be labeled with your beloved "rule of thirds", use of lighting and colors for mood, use of lines in helping direct the eye and so on.
The best ones are perfectly balanced, they don't call an attention to themselves and and telegraph what you should be looking at because they trust the viewer isn't a fucking idiot which is what you get when you follow conventional compositions. Again, these artists are aware of them but opt for a far better alternative. You should always take the alternative because doing the same formulaic shit will never stand out.

Malicious? No, what's malicious is the fact that retards like you keep using the same old tired techniques, growing complacent in it and keep spreading it to further generations of artists and keeping them lazy with crutches like this.

>>3474772
>I swear I'm not a pretentious faggot
PYW