/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>3452370
And what is exactly wrong with it?

Did this really need its own thread?

>>3452378
Everything, I hate is so much. From the eyes to the mouth to the construction of the chin and cheek bones, it's like everything is wrong

These cost me so much effort to make, it's super hard for me to get to these results

>>3452392
I know but I'm desperate, I want answers

>>3452394
Dude, it looks amazing. I think you're just paranoid, because there's nothing wrong with it. Keep up the good work!

>>3452402
Are you being ironic? Seriously asking

I don't feel like this when I'm drawing a face straight ahead or in profile. It's 3/4 positions that I just can't stomach, I feel like all the features are misaligned

>>3452394
>Everything

No, this is not an acceptable answer. Find specific things you dislike. Name them. You won’t be able to fix what’s wrong until you know what’s wrong.

>>3452407
i genuinely prefer the 3/4 one

>>3452421
There's something most definitely wrong with the eyes, and the general three-dimensionality of the face. But no matter if I change the basic construction of the face I can't get it right. When I look at people like Peter Wartman who's got a similar style to mine his faces are so much better, more solid and dimensional. I just don't understand

>>3452370
the eyes look a bit high

>>3452370
the eyes look a bit low

>>3452370
>Muh symbol drawings look bad fix them because I won't study real life REEEEE!!!!!!!!!

Just out of curiosity, do you flip the canvas once in a while? What resolution do you work on?

Working with a larger resolution will help getting finer details right, like the irises and pupils

Mirroring the canvas, or the layer you're working on, regularly will help a lot picking out areas that are off.

Also, it seems to me you rush too much with sketching. Too many strong, harsh lines. Just adding a little, gentle line here and there to help you position the various features will help you a lot. Eventually, with more experience, things will go more smoothly and you'll find you can place everythying in the right place more easily and faster.

>>3452445
I work traditionally 99% of the time so no flipping for me. I could use a mirror but it turns the whole thing into a gigantic trial and error case. I want to draw right from the start.

>>3452445
>Too many strong, harsh lines.
This could be part of the problem too, I'm really frantic when I draw.

>>3452370

>>3452452
Thanks a lot!! This is really helpful. Turns out I was making the mouth way too large. I don't like anime eyes but the way you drew them made me understand the angles involved a bit more.

>>3452452
What the fuck? If I make my own thread, can I get a redline too?

>>3452461
Better than another Krenz / Sakimichan thread desu

>>3452452
Things bad. Blind leading the blind.

>>3452476
Redline the redline

>>3452452
>>3452458
>>3452476
>>3452480
I feel already much better about it after seeing the redline. Smaller mouth was definitely a thing

Well this is how I'd do it. I think the main thing is to remember in three-quarter perspective is to pull the cheekbone up and in toward the eye's corner, yours is kind of long and droopy, like a hanging gutter. You shouldn't see much beyond the eye's corner because that's where the plane transitions into the other (blocked) side of the face.

>>3452505
>pull the cheekbone up and in toward the eye's corner, yours is kind of long and droopy, like a hanging gutter.
good point, I'll keep that in mind

Dont listen to the cunt fags that say the construction is horrible, truth be told its not, as proven by the man that was able to red line the drawing with the same jaw and cranium size, i can draw realistic faces well, i can tell its fine, the features you drew simply look unappealing, this can be improved by drawing eyes from reference and understanding its basic construction, over and over again, i would start with realism before you go into cartoony features

>>3452520
Le this.
Also your style is ugly af. It's not only huge ass mouth but also huge ass ugly nose, big eyes with small pupils and fat ugly lines.
Work on realism first and then work on better stylization

>>3452520
What is absurd is that I'm reasonably comfortable drawing more realistic eyes, I know the basic structure etc. it's when I try cartooning that it comes out like shit

>>3452530
>your style is ugly af
I think it really boils down to this. I've been drawing for 5 years to get to this point and I don't know how to remove it, it's kinda depressing. I've done quite a bit of studying on realism, I don't care about realism I just want to make comics.

>>3452530
Dude that's just your opinion, Not everyone wants to draw the same damn woman.

>>3452534
google real human eyes and compare

>>3452544
I can compare those with my stylized eyes and see that they're clearly much better. How can I do wrong something that takes so many less lines to draw?

>>3452542
No, fuck off.

>>3452548
It really depends. Do you have example of artists you like? Something you'd consider as end goal?
For this specific eye I'd do either - make pupil size like x2 so there'll be no huge gap under it, or change eyelid shape make it look more like on photos. you can even trace them to see how lines would go. But in the end lines are lines, my dude. If you can draw like that then u surely can draw them a little different, JUST CHANGE THEIR PLACEMENT.

>>3452554
>Do you have example of artists you like? Something you'd consider as end goal?
I really like Jake Wyatt

>>3452578
>Jake Wyatt
Well you see? He's style is pretty ugo too, so I guess you are doing great after all actually lol
Just do some tweaking so you don't get triggered from your 3\4 faces. Copy shit you like.

>>3452587
>so I guess you are doing great after all actually lol
Haha yay.

Jokes aside I'm getting lots of info from this thread, I've grinded more faces today than in the whole week. I'm sorry about making a thread for it but hey.

Another guy I like and I want to be closer to is Peter Wartman. He's now drawing the Avatar: TLA comics

>>3452392
>>3452395
Study real faces and apply it to your art. Go find a bunch of pics of girls in the same position and compare it to your drawing.

Redlines can only do so much and are way better for full bodied pictures IMO.


Here's a tip though: If you think your eyes might be crooked or off (and they do look off to me) draw the guidelines STRAIGHT instead of along a curve. I know you wanna do the curve because the head is round but you want the line to be straight. I like to make it just about where I think the irises will be, and drawing them in will help you see if it's straight or not too.

As for the mouth, think about the way the lips are on real faces. they arent flat lines on a flat surface. Something stylized should still feel convincing.

Reference might help you. Try to think of them as shapes. For me I find it easier to just fill in the shape of the lips and then put in my guidelines so to speak.

Check her neck and go glance at some clavicals on humans. They have a sort of shape to them that isn't going to be a couple randomass lines on the chest (Don't feel bad i used to do this too. Draw it on a few real people first (Even just tracing over a photo might help you see) and then apply it to her

Honestly redlines can kinda suck since you don't have a guarantee the person is even right since a lot of people can struggle with similar areas.

I think getting advice that kinda tells you why or gives you an option to check some references and seeing what's different and from different angles even (Even if you're not the same bodytpe, checking yourself in the mirror can give clues).

And always flip it. Go and flip it horizontally so it's backwards. You'll immediately see half the problems. Flip it back before you work on it though because in my experience I end up getting too used to both sides and not making progress if i just flip back and forth.

>>3453118
>I can't redline so I will go on lengths about irrelevant things

>>3453118
Are you one of the 30 girls on /ic/?

>>3452407
any positive praise in this board is actually a ploy to make you continue drawing within your comfort zone

>>3453118
hey crabby

>only one redline in the whole thread
Isn't it amazing

>>3453521
One is better than nothing

>>3452407
Use a 3d grid then, fuck head. Then you will get clear results as to why. Take a grid, use it on an artist you like, then use it on your art, look at the differences, adjust.

Simple.

>>3452407
No. I really do like it

>>3452370
>I'm borderline retarded when it comes to faces.
You know self deprecation isn't good for your health.

>>3453642
It's true though. I've been drawing for 5 years and 3 years ago they were pretty much the same faces. I've spent a lot of time drawing from 3D models from a phone app, trying to study other artists, nothing will do. I just shit out these terrible crude faces and nothing works.

Meanwhile Dave Rapoza draws pic related

>>3453652
Well, I guess you suck anon.
You've even said it yourself.
The best thing you can do is to rebuild your life.

>>3452392
Yeah. About half the time I see someone ask for help in /beg/ or another thread they get 0 replies.

>>3453521
More than I expected considering at least half of this board spends more time thinking about drawing than actually doing it.

>>3453652
You're just not studying correctly, not applying those studies to imaginary work. Are you just copying what you see without trying to understand whats going on with the forms? Do you make both drawn and painted studies? Studying for the sake of studying without using the info for anything is pointless, are you making personal work?

Rapoza, dispite claiming he sucked at "drawing" until a year or two ago when he started his comic, has been drawing and painting for going on or over a decade now. He's working and studying constantly, he's been pumping out well "drawn" work for 6 or 7 years now, he understands form and lighting. Just studying for "x" number of years doesn't equal skill if all your doing is mindless busy work or drawing the same incorrect images over and over with out finding similar ref to correct problems.

Why aren't you finding reference for the drawing OP and then using the photo ref to see how the individual parts actually look IRL then redline your own drawing? You need to learn how to draw things decently realistic first if you want to draw them stylized. Without knowing the basic shapes from different angles, distances between things like eyes, ears, nose, lips and hair line your heads will always be fucked. Then you try and draw them in a stylized way based off an uninformed idea of what a head looks like and it looks even worse. Sounds to me like you're just drawing the same thing over and over again without self critiquing what's wrong. You're not using good enough reference or you're too free for all/undisciplined with your studies.

>>3452541
find some artists with styles you like then study it and find out why their art looks nice. you'll get there. and make sure the artists you like, aren't all modern ones doing the same thing. look at some dead ones.

nothing to redline, just practice more

>>3452370
There isn't a lot to judge here.

From a strictly technical perspective, you're careless and sloppy. The alignment is off, the placement is off, the shapes are wrong.

Slow down, make your guidelines correct. Check for symmetry and balance. Pay attention to angles. Learn real form instead of this messy rote construction that you can't rely on.

>>3452370

Hey guys, so I got this critique from the draw thread:
>>3454638
>Not the weeb poster but I strongly disagree here. The face was half drawn and mirrored, that's not the mark of someone who has their fundamentals down. Even with that cheat it still has a lot of problems. The nose is too close to the mouth and looks completely flat on her face. The face as a whole lacks dimension, the features don't look like they're set in a skull together due to the lack of definition of the eye sockets, cheekbones, and eyebrow ridge - obviously the cheekbones and sockets are undefined because nothing was drawn to indicate them, the problem with the eyebrows is they follow a straight line instead of curving with the ridge, missing a chance to create form. The cranium is too small and the face takes up slightly too much room on the head. It certainly isn't the worst start on a portrait I've seen but I think it's irresponsible to say it looks great. This person can still learn more.

I'm having trouble understanding how to give the face dimension? As well as tips for not relying on mirroring faces? When I draw normally, my artwork tends to lean to one side.

>>3454679
>When I draw normally, my artwork tends to lean to one side.

Correct it by using a mirror (not mirroring it, but using a physical mirror), flipping the canvas, or projecting horizontal lines. If you correct your mistakes enough, you'll probably make them less (citation needed).

>I'm having trouble understanding how to give the face dimension?

You'll have to learn form and perspective to start thinking in 3 dimensions.

Form drawing is not really a big deal (you can google some sort of dynamic sketching course) but you can't do it accurately & effortlessly until you know perspective

Unfortunately most people hate learning perspective (I guess artists by nature are not that analytically minded) so I don't know what to do there but to suck it up. That's bad advice though, considering that I really enjoy perspective.

>>3454706
>You'll have to learn form and perspective to start thinking in 3 dimensions.
Looks like I've got a lot of studying ahead of me. Perspective is definitely something I've been ignoring. I draw quite casually and have never really thought about my art in a technical way. An anon in the draw thread was kind enough to do a quick redraw for me and I used it as a guideline in my second attempt. How does this one look compared to the original?

>>3454833
Better, but the eyebrows are still weird (they have the steepest angle change at the plane shift between the forehead and temple) and the infraorbital furrows are too close together which destroys the illusion of a proper skull.

If you're trying to draw semi-realistic faces without a reference, you're going to have to learn the skull and do some facial anatomy studying too.

There's always more to do and I don't really want to overwhelm you. It's pretty good overall for drawing casually.

>>3454664
neat

OP here, is this any better?

>>3452590
traditional cucks. heh
inferior tools produce inferior work.

>>3457952
jokes on you my digital work is orders of magnitude worse

the problem is your retarded style choice.
those eyes will never look good no matter how well you place them

>>3458028
I get this feeling too. Is >>3457940 better?

>>3457940
Another attempt, trying to change the shape of the eyes

>>3452370
>Please don't explain
lol ok

>>3458294
I meant "please don't just explain"
Thanks for the redline, I def need to get the eyes right

>>3458267
>>3457940
one last sketch

>>3454641
This tweak fixed the problems without changing OP’s style, which literally every other fucking bullshit redline in this cockup of a thread did. A+, we don’t deserve this.

>>3452439
As a result the cranium looks too small. So OP either has to lower the eyes or increase the size of the cranium.

>>3458318
I specifically avoided redrawing so that OP could understand his problems are with alignment, and seeing someone else's drawing isn't going to fix his problem. But most people like him are already in the wrong head space.

>>3458489
>But most people like him are already in the wrong head space.
I don't really know, I asked for a redline because I've already had things explained to me and I couldn't visualize things correctly. I'm honestly kind of desperate to improve and faces are only a tiny part of the issues I have

your drawings look fine to me, unless it's supposed to be mango style, in which case it looks too western. can't help with that though, I don't do chink drawing myself

>>3458499
>blah blah blah

Look at the damn gif. What do you think your problem is?

>>3452394
I find your lack of a chin bulge disturbing

Draw a bunch of spheres from different angles then practice putting goggles on them in perspective. Pic related.

I think my problem is entirely with the other eye. It's always fucked up. I don't understand how to fix this, I read my Loomis books again but I just can't understand the angle

This is so frustrating

>>3459753
Was meant to reply to

>>3461044
You seem to struggle with form. This is just a level 2 version of symbol drawing.

>>3461044
I just don't think you're getting the eyes right, which then fucks with the zygomatic arch, which then fucks with the whole face.
You want to make sure there's the same amount of cheekbone protruding out from both sides of the face. Also, do some practice eye shapes from different angles. Bargue plates are a good ref.

Did this on my phone so it might not be the best redline.

>>3461044
No, the fucked eye is a consequence. Ask yourself what the cause is.

>>3461044
The eye is not the biggest issue here. Neck and jaw area is super fucked up.

>>3461088
>>3461090
>>3461095
All I can say is that while I'm not very skilled in general, this shit doesn't happen to me with the rest of the body. I can draw dynamic poses from imagination pretty ok. It's just the faces that come out like this.
I'm super bad at faces.

>>3461089
Ahhhhhhh your sketch is perfect. I will do bargue plates even though I hate them /fail at them. Do you have other suggestions on how to practice, or are bargues pretty much it?

>>3461106
You don't need to go full throttle with them and get crazy
I'd just practice by just trying to do your best to copy them. No need to be super exact, but make sure you get the proportions right and the arch of the eyelid correct.
While watching movies or look at yourself in the mirror, just kinda observe the -shape- of how things look at specific angles. How does the eye shape change as you shift your head around?
Just being conscious of these shapes is a good way of remembering/learning.
I remember Karla Ortiz gave some great advice by saying: "try to find cartoon shapes in references or models. Like how the eyebrows can resemble birds, or the bridge+nose can resemble an elephant." Identifying these cartoon shapes also helps with drawing exactly, because you're not trying to draw an "eye" rather you're drawing part of a larger cartoon shape that has no meaning until you look at the bigger picture.

>>3452370
Your method of constructing heads is giving you difficulty in placing features. In all the of the drawings you posted ITT you have a tendency to make the midline slope inwards or skew it to one side of the face (sometimes both). It creates conflict between the planes of the top and lower halves. For instance, in your pencil drawing (pic related) you placed the nose and mouth well in relation to each other, but they aren't properly aligned with the top half of the face. So, one thing you have to work on is maintaining a consistent midline throughout the faces you draw.

Generally, you need to solidify the underlying structure of your heads. It looks as if you draw a sphere then leave the rest to guesswork. Drawing a sphere and construction lines along it shouldn't be a formality -- you should be using that sphere to orient the head in space and establish where your features will be.

If you're having trouble constructing a head from a sphere, try using a cube instead. A shape with corners will help you visualize how it's rotated in space.

In pic related, I encourage visualizing the axes X, Y and Z. You shoud be able to locate them on every form you draw. They will help you situate your objects in space and, by extension, in relation to each other.

>>3452394
>>3458313
I actually quite like these, and they're well-drawn. Keep drawing, OP.

>>3452370
Your method of constructing heads is giving you difficulty in placing features. In all the of the drawings you posted ITT you have a tendency to make the midline slope inwards or skew it to one side of the face (sometimes both). It creates conflict between the planes of the top and lower halves. For instance, in your pencil drawing (pic related) you placed the nose and mouth well in relation to each other, but they aren't properly aligned with the top half of the face. So, one thing you have to work on is maintaining a consistent midline throughout the faces you draw.

Generally, you need to solidify the underlying structure of your heads. It looks as if you draw a sphere then leave the rest to guesswork. Drawing a sphere and construction lines along it shouldn't be a formality -- you should be using that sphere to orient the head in space and establish where your features will be.

If you're having trouble constructing a head from a sphere, try using a cube instead. A shape with corners will help you visualize how it's rotated in space.

In pic related, I encourage visualizing the axes X, Y and Z. You shoud be able to locate them on every form you draw. They will help you situate your objects in space and, by extension, in relation to each other.

>>3452394
>>3458313
I actually quite like these, and they're well-drawn. Keep drawing, OP.

>>3452370
here's what I threw together

>>3461598
You're getting there. The eyes look much better.
The nose could use some work but the only really big issue I see now is the mouth...you just gotta shift it over to the left more. If that centerline is correct, then the entire mouth is on one side of the face.

Almost there though
Maybe try drawing different angles for a while and then come back to this particular angle/character. Give yourself some fresh eyes.

>>3461672
OP here. That wasn't me! I'm still trying to figure it out.

>>3461598
>>3461146
Thanks a lot everyone for the redlines and useful help.

>>3461457
I couldn't have asked for a better analysis. I think you're spot on.

>>3461106
Many times the face looks wrong because some other part of basic head construction is wrong

>>3461672
Different artist than op btw. I'm trying to work with what he gave me but I doodle 3/4th all the time

>>3462200
Shit my bad
Well, it still applies my dude. It's definitely better than op's but isn't going to win any awards.

>>3462256
U right that's why ima stick to dumpy little doodles instead.

The centre of the eyeball will usually line up with the dimples in the lips, unless you're really skewing the expression or the character's face is slanted.

You can even see it in the first two examples OP posted. The first one looks weird because the back eye doesnt line up with the mouth, asopposed to the second one.

Andrew Loomis goes over facial proportions in detail.

Hope this helps! Your stuff looks awesome. I hope you can attain the style you want.

>>3463630
>The first one looks weird because the back eye doesnt line up with the mouth
I'm going to try this, thanks!

>>3463638
post once corrected im interested

>>3463649
I'm OP btw

>>3452370
>>3452394
>>3457940
i'll burst the bubble everybody is letting you live in.
your whole face is except for the nose is displaced towards the viewers point. the space from the inside of the eyes to the center line should be the same (obviously not in the paper, but in the 3d space)

>>3452370
>>3452394
>>3463714

you don't have to always draw the full eye... also your eyes are not aligned in paralel to your horizontal reference line

maybe if you actually studied reality instead of being chained to your "muh style" you'd progress.

The eye to our left isn't aligned properly is the most obvious problem amateurs would probably notice. Hopefully this makes sense, tried to align her features to her chin.

>>3452370
to me it only needs a little tweek, but i am too lazy even for that

>>3465764
>>3465639
>>3465598
I just don't understand anymore. I've tried so many times I've lost count. Here's another drawing, am I doing it right?

>>3465896
dont worry bro i struggle with faces too.

>>3452370
oh i see it now concerning the eyes, took a sec, basically iris and pupils arn't circles if the eye is looking anywhere but at the viewer, Since u got them placed center they should be slightly oblong and warped to actually face teh direction they are looking. Really think like a disk on a ball. Unless your character is looking right at the viewer the disks will always be oval and tilted.

>>3465764
wrong still kinda, you cant just rotate eyes like that because the shape of the iris needs to conform as if the eyeball was at least somewhat spherical, its sublte but we notice it internally since eyes are so important. As long as the iris are facing any direction but to the viewer they will warp and become more oblong.

>>3465951
You are right. I was trying to show how I visualize eyes at an angle to OP but maybe that wasn't the best example...

>>3465896
I think your eyes look fine here and your features are lining up better. Honestly your best go from here is studying the contours of real faces and how feature placement affects facial attractiveness.

>>3452452
based anon