/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>b-but tracing is immoral

The artists who didn't get caught are the ones you think who are moral artists, morality doesn't if no one knows the truth.

$10 million net worth, again. While a lot of you poverty artists are wondering why you can't be rich like them.

lmao

>>3440744
Nick Simmons copied Bleach, not the other way around, and he got into a lot of shit for it too.

>>3440741
These two aren't traced, they're copied. Overlay them, and try to line them up, and you'll see that they don't match up perfectly.

Now, whether or not copying panels/poses from other manga/comics is ok or not is a different story. I personally don't know. On the one hand, you have films like Matrix, Kill Bill, Star Wars, etc... that take scenes from other films, and pretty much copy them 1:1. I would argue that copying a panel from another manga is tantamount to that, as you're only copying a small portion of something else, not the whole thing, and ideas gotta come from somewhere. On the other hand, I've done this, and whenever I have, even if I change things a lot, it doesn't FEEL like my work. I see it, and it's like an ugly reflection staring back at me. I'm 100% comfortable admitting that it's like a crutch, because I'm still learning the ins and outs of the medium, and the only way I can do so, is through imitation. Even if it's just one panel among 10 pages, it still bothers me. When I reread my stuff, it sticks out to me among the bunch. So idk, it's motivation to get better.

Note that I'm talking about copying other work, not tracing it. Like what you posted in those two. That's copied work, not traced.

>>3440741
wasnt this posted on /a/ before?
OP is just trying to anger boards

>>3440758
What did /a/ say?

>>3440759
they just got mad and started posting examples of nips finding obscure character poses and linking them back to anime.
idk if the thread is still up

>>3440741
the thing is when it comes to professional artists, how can you tell if its traced? considering most of them could whip up that pose just by eye in all of about 30 seconds.

>>3440766
It's not traced, it's copied. You can tell if you pay attention to the details.

>>3440762
See, this is what's scary about all this. Stuff has always copied from other stuff since forever, and before the internet, you could get away with it as no one would care. However, now you have this collective group of weaponized autism who will scour the web to find your references, and they will find them, and drag your name through the mud, just cause they might not like you, or cause they feel some moral duty to slam you, cause they're ignorant of how common this practice even is in the first place. Then, under pressure from a large amount of people, and such, your superiors are forced to take action, and this sort of stuff always hurts sales.

When, if you look back to the era before the internet, you could do the same for older works, and no one ever got shit for it.

Really, all people are accomplishing with these witch hunts is stifling the creative process.

>>3440742
Like take these two for example. Does it really matter?

>>3440758
are you just trying to anger OP

>>3440741
that's a generic action pose to begin with, also gokus arms and legs are positioned differently and more dynamically.


>There are countless successful Mangaka out there that are making MILLIONS that trace
If you knew anything about manga and mangakas, you wouldn't say that. It's a typical pathetic westerner's excuse, because he can't draw a figure in any pose, in any perspective, whatsoever. At least watch manben and have a look at the effortless and clean figure drawing, just based on visual library.

>>3440742
>>3440744
>anime girl squatting sideways is somehow patented
>some head getting grabbed by a hand is somehow patented
The absolute state of /ic. Instead showcase the ilya sheet, you are making actual tracing look bad.

>>3440741
They trace due to time constraints and efficiency, but they are still good artists. Unlike you who has to trace to draw anything lmao.

>>3440788
What about this?

https://youtu.be/Y4le3EDDAIQ

https://youtu.be/Z-HuenDPZw0

>>3440741
You do realize that the artist in the example image you posted is currently weathering a huge shitstorm because he was caught tracing, right?

>>3440771
>tracing/copying
>creative
Lmao you're a troll and you write all of this for the purpose of baiting... you got me.
Anyway, toyo got caught tracing that Captain america guy, the CA artist even called him out on twitter, toyo deleted his illustration out of shame after getting caught. Nips are mad as fuck.

Getting caught tracing/copying will always be a thing and people doing it will always be looked down by others, by the consummers or fellow artists. Eventually tracing can kill your career like what happened to prism's mangaka. Do it at your own risk, once tainted you never go white again

>>3440796
You do realize OP's point is about it's normal to trace and that it's fine as long as you don't get caught right?

Illiterate.

OP is correct. Professionals trace because there’s zero practical difference between looking at a reference off to the side and tracing. The master painters traced cartoons. If you want to get better you must trace. Just try to use a mixture of parts from various images - lots of photographs more than other people’s art - as references.

>>3440744
Its not that fucking hard to draw a hand and then a face

>>3440771
But that's pretty much my point, why on earth would a professional artist trace a post when they can just copy it by eye in literally about 30 seconds?

I watched someone get the entire basic outline and major details of a woman in less than a minute, it looked like an intermediate's finished drawing.

The details and rendering and composition are the things that take hours, no?

>>3440817
pose not post

>>3440817
Copying it by eye exactly when you can trace it exactly is wasting time. Sketch over the reference and distort it, and mix in other references. Either way works and no way is better, or more legitimate than the other. Amateurs should trace more often because they often miss important details they need to learn by drawing what they imagine they see instead of what is actually there.

>>3440805
But you will get caught? Spotting a trace is incredibly easy.

>>3440821
shouldnt amateurs just learn to draw what they see by actually drawing instead?
thats what most beginner books teach

How come nobody ever knows what tracing actually means? It literally means tracing the original lines through paper. The stuff that gets posted on social media is usually distasteful copying/referencing.

>>3440830
that is literally what everyone thinks tracing means

>>3440832

Well is the art in op's post "traced"?

>>3440825
Spotting a trace is not easy at all unless it’s exact or done by someone who didn’t finish their work. Most pros do it, and most use multiple references instead of a single one. Clothing and the character should definitely be changed and made original. Using single pose references is extremely common though. People shouldn’t look down on this.

>>3440830
>>3440832
reference = tracing

>>3440835
wrong

>>3440744
Are you retarded? The image on the left is a trace from the Bleach image.That entire comic has become a meme because of how blatantly it is stealing from Bleach panels. I mean surely even if you defend tracing, you wouldn't be stupid enough as to advocate tracing from artists with millions of fans around the world, right?

>>3440828
Tracing is drawing. It’s a tool to obtain a properly proportioned initial sketch. The other hours spent on the piece is also drawing. Visual art is literally the only field where using more accurate methods to measure and obtain results is frowned upon, but it’s a trade craft like any others and assigning morality or immorality to tools is idiotic when it’s the content and communication that matters.

>>3440834
I think a beginner like you simply can't understand that drawing from reference is not nearly as hard as you think it is. There is no reason for a good artist to trace, they will just use a reference normally. Which usually allows them to draw a better pose in general. Traced art is easily to spot because it is stiff and lifeless. You underestimate how easy it is to see a lack of line confidence and skill in artists who can't draw properly and rely on tracing all the time.

>>3440843
Whatever dude, I wanna be able to draw, not trace.

>>3440843
>but it’s a trade craft like any others and assigning morality or immorality to tools is idiotic when it’s the content and communication that matters.

The reason why people look down on it is because when you trace, you are no longer communicating your own content and ideas, you are communicating someone elses ideas, pretending they are yours. When you trace something that is not a photo you took yourself, then you rely on someone else to communicate for you.

>>3440844
You’re misleading people. If you think professional artists don’t trace and believe this has anything to do with confident lines you need to really study how things are created in the industry.

>>3440836
No.

>>3440850
You are the one who is misleading people, I'm not the one making generalizations like that. First of all, define who you mean by professional artist? Comic book artists and mangaka? Yes, they trace, but usually not what you think of. Manga artists often trace photos for props and background images they themselves took as part of their research and preparation. That's perfectly fine. If they however had to trace someone elses work or a photo for every fucking pose they needed to draw, they would finish 1 chapter a month.

What newbies like you don't seem to understand is that in the long run tracing is MORE time consuming than being able to draw and most professionals will prefer gesture, energy and speed over stiffness and perfect accuracy.

>>3440849
If you reference say a photo of a model kneeling, whether you draw it seeing it off to the side or trace it is irrelevant because you’re changing every detail aside from the pose regardless. The idea is still completely yours. You traced a model kneeling, distorted it and changed it up, but now she’s an elf holding a magical orb. You cared enough to get the pose correct based on reality and not guessing.

>>3440856
I know you might not believe it on 4chan, but I work professionally as an illustrator and visual effects compositor in Los Angeles. Been doing it over a decade. My work has been nominated for multiple MTV awards. The only people who ever give a damn about tracing a pose are amateurs.

>>3440857
>The idea is still completely yours.
Not really, because your idea is limited to what the photo provides. You might have initially been thinking of some heroic, extreme perspective upshot with a strong gesture etc, but because you could only find a photo of some generic life drawing model kneeling, that's what you are going to draw.

A better artist could look at the reference, remind himself of some anatomical details etc of that pose, then draw it in a much stronger perspective, gesture, shape design etc. They might sacrifice a little bit of realism but gain a ton by having the stronger overall image.

>>3440864
The goal is to try to find a reference better than what you imagined, and then exaggerate and distort it. You’re in no way limited to one reference. You don’t have to choose a sucky reference. Tracing is just a tool used in combination with everything else. This is pretty obvious, right?

>>3440859
>The only people who ever give a damn about tracing a pose are amateurs.

You can repeat this as much as you want, but it doesn't make it true and you know it. Why is every tracer always desperately trying to hide the fact that they trace? I have yet to see a professional casually posting an image on their social media going "hey guys, here's my newest drawing, it's a trace from pic related, hope you enjoy!" And guess what, I can guarantee that you don't do it either. You can pretend all you want that no one cares, but deep down you know that what you do makes you less of an artist and normal people, your fans, would think less of you if they found out about it.

>>3440859
>I know you might not believe it on 4chan, but I work professionally as an illustrator and visual effects compositor in Los Angeles.

>>3440870
what is behind this meme?

what on earth does it mean? where did it come from? its a pretty damn good drawing imo

>>3440869
this desu

>>3440867
Well, good luck trying, but in the end it still boils down to you having to rely on the photo or artwork you end up with. Your idea and communication of said idea is heavily limited. And I for one have yet to see a good looking drawing that is the result of some frankenstein multiple ref trace job.

>>3440870
It’s just a job. If we were arguing about plumbing and someone said I wasn’t a plumber I’d say I’m a plumber. You know stuff from experience.

>>3440871
You just gotta know

>>3440873
A lot of illustrations we do can take up to 30-40 references and 20+ hours of work. It’s a trade and the results are important. Getting details accurate with precision takes work and is valuable. Tracing is a practical tool to help with this and will greatly improve most artist’s range when dealing with reasonably realistic subjects and proportions.

>countless successful Mangaka out there that are making MILLIONS

Lmao retard there's maybe 10-20 mangaka out there who are millionaires (in USD) just from their work. The rest are barely scraping by.

>>3440873
>And I for one have yet to see a good looking drawing that is the result of some frankenstein multiple ref trace job.
Because you can't tell from the good ones retard

>>3440878
Nice anecdote EOP. You was already btfoed in last thread. Don't even try to post articles from animeforums

>>3440741
Tracing brings risks of being sued, which isn't what a professional should risk for his company.
not everybody in the industry is a spineless carpet like Marlel's employes.

>>3440883
Lmao. And they are the good ones, generally. It’s sort of a flawed perspective to view the creation of art as some idealized endeavor - a sole hero presenting their original ideas as gifts to the world from the struggle of their hands and minds alone. Some sort of German Romanticism.

Art comes from a community and is driven by the observation of references and influences outside of yourself that are better than you are. You create art to communicate and do specific things for specific audiences and make money like any other profession.

>>3440886
If they trace a work and leave it at that, that’s stupid of them. Some comic book artists get close to doing this, and it’s lazy. Still, deadlines matter though and if readers enjoy it and the story is nice, it works. I’m talking about poses and anatomy, perspectives on objects, etc. This will require distortion and redrawing.

>>3440839
nick simmons made over $10 million from his comics, how is he stupid? He made OVER 10 MILLION? Boohoo that people cried? HE MADE OVER 10 MILLION DOLLARS. You are so fucking stupid, who the fuck CARES he was caught and picked bleach to steal from if he made over 10 million dollars? He didn't go to jail, nothing bad happened to him. He made 10+ million dollars. People like you are NGMI

>>3440953
Wait, did he really make $10m?

>>3440954
Of course not. Stop falling for obvious bait.

>>3440741
>capeshit comic artists
>professionals

>>3440741
Doesn't seem traced
I saw overlaps with a total different image being posted on /a/
they even changed the hands of goku for the hands of captain america to make it seems like it was traced

>>3440953
>The 3-issue mini-series was intended as the first part of a longer story. (...) However, production was halted on the comic books and collected editions due to accusations of plagiarism.

Well, sounds like his publisher cared. A no name publisher called "Radical" no less. Needless to say, the comic sold so few units there don't even exist official sales numbers for it on the internet.

>>3440887
That's a nice strawman you got there, but you are mixing things up here. No one ever said anything against using inspirations and references. But when you trace someone elses art, you are not communicating anything yourself.

>>3440877
>It’s a trade and the results are important

Exactly. That's why good artists don't trace. The end result just looks weak and inferior to a figure that is actually designed properly.

>>3441003
this desu

Just learn perspective, construction and gesture ffs

No wonder this board is all "hurr look at the old man charcoal hands study I did in 30 mins" instead of anyone employed or with a robust portfolio. Fucking lazy. Shit isn't hard, and if you're giving up by tracing then you don't have the vision necessary to be anybody at all.

Go to a con and go to the drawing booths. You can watch people draw. Some of them don't even put anything down before going in with pen or marker.

>>3440741
>>3440742
>>3440744
But these arent even traced?

>>3440741
Not traced.

And shame on all the faggots saying he should lose his job over this. Over on Twitter, Youtube, and Reddit.

>>3441546
what do you mean? this board is literally all "look at my anime girl".

i really like charcoal hand studies and anime girls though :(

>>3442279
What are the chances they both used the same ref?

>>3442281
Nah, it's clearly copied. And for a pose like that, the original artist most likely copied a photo he himself took as well.

>>3442279
To me the problem isn't that used a reference, it's that he just can't come up with interesting poses of his own. It's been more noticeable each chapter that he's just a fan, not an artist.

>>3442299
>it's not original enough
that fallacy has to die.

>>3440741
i think i have a vague recollection of the original source for this pose, i think it was a sports thing rather than from some movie or w/e, maybe it's even a common move

>>3442319
Wait, there's a source on the original pose of the Captain America picture?

Cause the original artist is being a cunt and jumping on the bandwagon on Twitter, saying that "yeah, Toyo traced."

The pose is copied, not traced. But the hand's strange thumb is pretty dumb to copy as well

it's always bizarre to see low level artists try to condone tracing
yeah yeah I know most of you in here are just shitposting about it whatever
I mean out in ~the real world~

>>3442354
It's always disgusting to me how "artists" hypocritically shame artists who trace or copy, and then pretend they never use reference either.

One of the very first things we learned in art school, was looking at the various tools high level artists use to produce high quality pieces. "You can't draw that which you can't fully visualize." My teacher would go through various iconic pieces of entertainment art, and show us the references they used to create them. And in some cases, the photos they took to trace over them. It's especially common among comic books. For our comic project, our teacher literally got cameras for us, and had use pair up with classmates, to pose for each other so we had the reference for our comic page.

And one thing is for certain, if the top level artists are doing it, and have happily admitted to doing so. All the people below them do it as well. The difference is, the top dogs aren't cunts about it like the mid-tier faggots. It's an ego thing. All the mid-level artists wanna present themselves as better than they actually are to the public eye, because they're unhappy with their success in the field. People who've truly gotten ahead, have no problem revealing their secrets.

>>3442380
newsflash:
you went to a shitty art school

>>3442380
>reference = tracing

>>3442388
diagnosis: terminal crabbities

>>3442393
diagnosis: can't draw

>>3442391
Not what I said at all.

>>3442388
I guess so did Walt Disney, Norman Rockwell, Frank Frazetta, and many others.

The sad part is, is that a lot of pros act just like you do. You people are truly the worst. I'd love to take any artist who's so high and might about "I never trace/I never use reference/all my stuff is from imagination" Give them a script for a comic, put them on a 4 hour time frame to do the whole think, inked and everything, and watch them do it. See how well they do without the use of reference. I guarantee they either don't finish on time, it winds up being some of their worst work, or both.

>>3442404
>comic spread*

>>3442397
>hm, he accused me of being a crab, i'll put him off by snipping. that usually works
SNIP

>>3442404
>Norman Rockwell
Oh yeah. They guy who was literally embarrassed by using balopticon. Why are you comparing people like Frank Frazetta to him? Are you implying everyone in art circles was okay with heavy relying on references and tracing?

>>3442412
And his views about art literally contradicts with views of other great artists

>>3442412
>They guy who was literally embarrassed by using balopticon
You mean like all the faggots who pretend they don't trace or use reference?

>Are you implying everyone in art circles was okay with heavy relying on references and tracing?
Everyone without an ego is ok with admitting it.

>>3440741
Because they see too much kim jung gi and think artist like him are common instead of being the exceptional case he is.

>>3442418
>who pretend
>everyone without an ego is ok with admitting it.
Nice logical fallacy. I assume you can't animate without rotoscope too, amrite? It's impossible. Disney did it (all time I swear), that means everyone did it too.

>>3442423
>accuses someone of making a logical fallacy when there isn't one
>makes a logical fallacy himself
I'm just gonna drop the conversation here. You're too dumb to bother with.

Pros use reference, and trace when they need to all the time. I don't know why you're going around pretending like it's some cardinal sin that you never do, when either you likely have, and choose not to admit it. Or are a complete beginner with zero experience. End of story.

Reason Rockwell was embarrassed about admitting he traced was preciously cause of ego driven crabs who were "above that" and would shame anyone who would use the tools available to them.

>>3442422
This.

>>3442427
dont bother with that retard

>>3442427
>accuses someone of making a logical fallacy when there isn't one
>I'm just gonna drop the conversation here. You're too dumb to bother with.
Nice ad hominem. You literally claim that every artist tracing and heavy relies on references because of some Norman Rockwell and Disney shit. Everyone who disagree is ""pretending"". Not logical fallacy? Yeah good luck, retard.

>>3440871
It's a mediocre piece of work, but when you look closer it's utterly bland and devoid of any creativity or uniqueness. It's not bad, but it's unoriginal and stale.

>>3442435
the main thing is that's it a hangover from like 2014 when /ic/ was super hardcore into concept art. it barely applies now but at the time it was a vicious indictment of the 'technique first, creativity never' attitude /ic/ fostered.

>>3442437
Stop parroting this anecdote. merc_wip artist has nothing to do with /ic/ concept art thing.

>>3440741
I see it as an artistic grey area, made more complicated because art is presumed to be a show of skill by most people. People feel lied to if they know you traced, like you’ve conned them. And the artist you’re tracing won’t be getting recognized for the sample that they created.
The problem you’ll run into very quickly is that you’re going to be a shit artist. If you rely on samples too much you won’t know how to construct figures properly or give them lifelike poses. Look at Fisheye Placebo, the characters look wooden like mannequins.
Sampling is used in all kinds of art, but it needs to be transformative, not derivative. When you’re tracing, you’re not transforming the sample, instead you’re copying the sample.
I see more cons than pros here. I understand the pressure for expediency, but that’s about the only reason to consider tracing. Tracing is only really acceptable in animation desu.

>>3440741
Oh boy, another "don't study just trace" thread. This board has been for a while, and still is, on brink of irrelevance.

There are dozens of neets on here who sit around all day waxing poetic on how to improve, how to do things "correctly", what the allowed "art laws" are (i.e. tracing, paintovers, 3d models.) and so on and so on. Meanwhile people with actually buisness experience in freelancing, independent artists, studio work, are out there just making paintings and posting information online to blogs, youtube or their websites. Actual useful information.

Studying and getting better was never an issue in the past, it was a given, people just studied and got better. The buisness part of getting work, negotiating contracts, selling prints, conventions, was where all the tips and questions would come from. Now you morons spend so much time talking and so little time actually working, trying to figure out how to improve or doing persona work you need to be walked through every step like a child. Then when you can't figure something out after spending a grand total of two minutes on it before getting distracted you make up all these uninformed rules to explain why you suck ass.

Anyone who actively comes on here for any other than shitting on plebs, who looks for or to give advice, is a moron. You're just tricking yourself into thinking this is moving you forward to "making it." You're all just wasting time debating about shit no actual profesional worries about. If you want to be hobisits that fine but so many of you claim you're trying to get gud and make it. All I see is hundreds of wasted hours fighting over crap that doesn't matter because none of you spend any real time making art to begin with in order t figure out what learning techniques actually work and what don't.

>>3442418
Only if it's photos they took themselves. I have never seen anyone openly admit tracing another artist's work, because that is objectively called plagiarism.

do you guys remember batman odyssey where the guy basically traced every panel from his old work, plus it was crazy

>>3440835
idiot

>>3441006
OP just doesn't know what the definition of tracing is. He thinks it means copying.

>>3442456
good one, sums up /ic/

>>3442456
>Anyone who actively comes on here for any other than shitting on pleb
>*writes wall of text*
What are you doing newfag holy shit tldr

>>3440741
So what I'm getting from this is once someone does a pose you aren't allowed to use that pose or angle

>>3442507
yes
and what I'm getting from this post is that you're a fucking newbie little shitmonger that doesn't know fuck all about the basic notion of drawing

>>3442460
And never did I say that you should trace other people's work.

Toyo's Goku drawing is very evidently not traced. It's copied.

Now if it's issue with copying from others you take, that's another topic.

>>3442507
That's what all the scrublets think, yeah.

artists are so dumb. you only trace certain parts, like a foot or ear. nobody notices, 200 iq

>>3440744
How pathetic that there are such paranoid autists out there that search anything remotely similar to have something new for the tracing meme.

>>3442652
Don't underestimate the power of bitter autists with too much free time

>>3442522
Why are you so serious about this?

>>3442522
yikes anon, might want to go back to the /beg/ threads..

>>3442774
oh you're just baiting, alright then have fun

>>3442819
Nope just wondering you seem upset.

>>3440884
>unironically uses the term "EOP"
Stopped reading after that

>>3442774
Why is this pose so popular

Hi.

>>3442870
It's a good pose to show off the sword.

>>3442931
See, THIS is shameless tracing from photos, and other art. It's lazy, and lacks any sort of personality. This is how you DON'T do it.

It's kinda sad that a dude like this is still a regular comic book artist with a job for doing something so blatantly lazy, and people just accept it. While atm, people want Toyo's head on a pike for copying a pose from a comic, because they think he traced it, and need to edit and crop the original image to even get parts of it to properly line up.

I almost feel like I should do a tutorial on how to trace properly so people know how you're meant to do that so that you're still putting a lot of work in yourself, and come up with stuff that doesn't feel stiff and lazy.

It still requires you know construction and perspective. Basically, with a photo, you just "ghost over" the gesture with lose lines, to get the perspective and proportions more or less right. Then you turn it off, and do the rest from imagination. That's how I do it at least.

Like, you know when you're doing a gesture drawing in a 30 second timer. Kinda like that, maybe even less. It shouldn't take you more than 10 seconds of tracing to get the key points done. Lose lines to get the "feeling" down. From there, the rest is from imagination.

That's how I do it at least.

>>3442997
Oh, also never do this with other people's artwork. The most you can do is copy the composition or pose by eyeballing it, and even then, be conscious of the fact you're copying, and try to change as much as you can. The more differences the better. Really, copying is only there to help you understand difficult poses you might be dealing with, or to help you find inspiration. But here, you really wanna push the differences, and try to be as original as possible. In this case, the best thing to do is to take a bunch of different similar references, and use them all to help you eyeball something original from all of them.

>>3442931
the granny is the least of the offenders
>you can't draw old women from your imagination? why aren't you grinding grandmas in your free time???

>>3443005
are you fucking retarded?

>>3442931
this is why I favour stylization over realism. If your style is hyper-realistic, it will be super obvious when you are copying off of a photo. If you are using reference, the idea is to put your own creative spin so that it isn't just a blatant copy. So if you have a distinct stylistic way of drawing, it is already a given if you then draw the reference in your own style.

This is why you are NGMI. You spend more time trying to justify shitty crutches and convince yourself that every single artist uses them instead of putting in the work and actually improve.

Also you must be completely retarded if you don't understand the difference between tracing and using references or thinking that if an artist uses references from time to time he absolutely can't draw from imagination.

>>3442314
With something as broad as Dragon ball, in this case it kinda is.

>>3440741
>I-impossible, muh japanese animu masterrace artists would never trace from those filthy gaijins

>>3443026
drawing from imagination is just drawing from a reference you forgot where you got it from

>>3443038
Yes and no, great artist who understand well the subject can draw it from imagination from different angles while modifying it as they please.

>>3442418
Why didn't they draw the skirt falling down??

>>3443044
only kim jung gi can do this from what I have seen

>>3443084
Neh, you just need to work on construction and perspective, once you manage to simplify the form into simple shapes it's easy to move them around and later add the details.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7bDA8TzdCCA&t=484s
I know that MDJ is far from being a great artist but still he started drawing seriously just a couple of years ago and he's able to move around in perspective complex objects. Scott Robertson draws so much from imagination that he can't even draw from reference anymore. Even Amundsen spend a day studying a subject he's unfamiliar with to not use references during his works.

People saying that it's IMPOSSIBLE to draw from imagination are complete amateurs who don't know jackshit about art.

>>3443084
No he's can do it while composing an entire scene with crazy perspective but most artists with 5+ years experience should have no problem rotating any object they see in their minds.

>>3443090
I don't think anyone is saying it's IMPOSSIBLE to draw from imagination. However, there will always be poses you struggle with due to the sheer complexity of the angle + the placement of things, or even just getting it to look natural. This is where reference or tracing can come in handy. Just find/make a model, and copy/trace it, whichever. Sometimes just even SEEING the pose once can help you properly place things as you need. This is doubly true when you add in extreme fortshortening, lens distortion/various sorts of lenses, or difficult anatomical body parts.

Sometimes just being able to move a model around slightly here and there to get the PERFECT angle is much more effective, and convenient, than trying to get it down by wasting time drawing the pose again and again and again either trying to get that one but you're struggling with down right, or trying to find the right body part placement + camera angle. Not only that, but taking reference photos also helps unsure you don't always resort to the same poses and shots again and again. And artist isn't a copy machine. We have a limited bag of tricks we're most comfortable with, but when we venture out into new territory, we will always find new things that will be difficult or awkward for us to draw, no matter how much perspective or construction we know.. Obviously your bag of tricks grows the more experience you have, but when you've got deadlines to meet, and constantly trying to keep your panels interesting by not reusing the same angles and poses all the time, you don't have much time to be wasting on one panel trying to get it perfect. Just take a goddamn photo, trace over it, and save yourself the pain, and then the embarassment of fucking up that one arm or leg, or shoulder or whatever.

>>3443010
Yes.

>>3443084
there are a lot of misinformed opinions in this thread
but yours is the most misinformed crablike shitpost of them all

>>3443177
does kim jung gi not draw from imagination?

>>3443181
you completely misunderstood

>>3443208
misunderstood what?

>>3442819
Lmao this retard has no argument so he tries to dismiss it as bait

>>3442652
>you only trace certain parts, like a foot or ear. nobody notices

>>3442279
>trace something
>change it up slightly
>retards will defend you saying it's not traced
That's literally how it always works.

>>3443423
Are you having fun being a baiting whore?

>>3443425
Only if you're having fun being a braindead retard.

Oh wait, you're ironically baiting me. Have a (you), dumbass.

>>3440953
>MUH MONIEEEEEE
Scum like you don't deserve life

>>3443427
How far are you willing to take this charade?

>>3443423
Everyone knows this is how you're supposed to do it.

If people claim you traced you just show them how you positioned the arm 2 degrees to the left and how the hand is open now.

>>3443423
It's the same retards who trace, they're defending their own practice. They've rationalized a very specific criteria for tracing, so when they draw a layer over their "reference" they can call it something else.

>>3443423
>change slightly
The legs have a totally different perspective. They don't even remotely line up.

>>3442931
Lel

Reading this steaming pile of dog shit made me miss furry fucks and lolipedos. At least those fucks actually did strife to become better at what they do, but now I only see people who suck the biggest dick they can and wallow in they own shit like pigs. State of fucking IC ma duud, tracers sure are the lowest life form of them all.

>>3440804
Did you just say "once you go black you don't come back"?

>>3440741
mfw the part of art i'm best at is an 'air of reality' without tracing, a worthless skill :(