/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

Using the "Shapes" tool in Excel.

>>3320809
It's super useful for the production pipeline in concept art and such, because it's so fast. In concept art, you don't have time to be wasting on making a perfect painting, especially when the likelyhood is high that it'll get tossed out. In concept art, you're being paid for the design/your ideas, not a polished piece.

That said, it's an easy technique to screw up if you don't have a very strong grasp on the fundamentals, however, if you're already good, photo bashing/matte painting is like magic.

Watch FZD to see how to do it right.

It's not a surrogate for art, its just another tool to be used where appropriate. Like the anon above mentioned, this shit is huge in concept art where you're just churning out tonnes of shit until something sticks.

>>3320817

Yeah but isn't it like.. cheating?

I think that ''it's faster'' is kind of a bullshit excuse.

>>3320823
It's only cheating if the artist tries to pass it off as something it isn't. It's a discipline separate from drawing and painting.

>>3320809
it's a fast way to get out ideas.

>>3320809
Photobashing is used by professionals because its faster than painting in every detail, or construct perspective from scratch. The Client only cares about the end result.

>>3320823
cheating at what? Digital painting is not an olympic sport with a set of rules everyone who is competing has to follow, its actually the contrary, commercial artists get paid by the hour so getting done work quickly is priority number one.

>>3320823
>Yeah but isn't it like.. cheating?

That's something hobbyists and amateurs worry about. Professionals wouldn't even think to ask such a useless question.

>I think that ''it's faster'' is kind of a bullshit excuse.

Who's making excuses?

The point of conceptual art is to pump out as many pieces in as many varieties as you can, as fast as you can. It doesn't matter if they're photobashed or not because they're not trying to exist as independent works of art, but collective works of ideas.

>>3320823
No, no it's not.

No rules, just tools. Art isn't a performance trade like acting you fucking idiot. You're judged on the end result, not on the methods you used to get that end result. You can make art using whatever method you like.

>>3320823
There is no cheating in art, stop this egotistical meme.

>>3320809
the model has such small hands

If you're a concept artist who is part of a pipeline, great.

If you're trying to draw/paint something worth the title "Art" with a capital "A", it's questionable at best.

>>3320979
This anon likes the smell of his own farts.

>>3320809
The effect it creates is obvious to most viewers.

>>3320868
>You're judged on the end result, not on the methods you used to get that end result

But that IS what people judge when they make fun of photobashers. Shit like the OP image looks retardedly bad. Artists who can do good photobashes like Eytan Zana, Craig Mullins, Jaime Jones, Yang Qi etc rarely ever get shit for it. The only times someone ridicules photobashing is when it's done with such low skill and effort that the end result is just embarassingly bad. Which happens to be the majority of photobashes.

>>3320809
one of those things where it's fine if it's good and morally wrong when it's done poorly like op

I'd literally rather suck cock for money than do photobashing.

>>3321165
Sounds to me like you're gay son.

>>3321165
So go do it then.

>>3321141

No it's not. 90% of people have no fucking clue.


>>3320868

I understand the consept artist side of it, but if you're like an amateur digital painter and people think that you're really good, and you're really not.

IF you can do the same detail by painting normally I think its mostly OK, but if you can't then its just bullshit.

But thats like just my opinion man.

It's in the same category that I would make a traditional drawing/painting and trace every detail of it.

Is it the same thing as doing it normally but just faster? NO. It's bullshit and cheating.

Im fucking shocked how many ''artists'' think its totally cool to do.

>>3320857
This. Our yellow jew overlord himself photobashes heavily for clients in asia. He found out you could literally trace other people's works in foreign markets for concept work (movies, games) and no there cares. Most of the citizens there were never exposed to the majority of western things, so it's easily recyclable there.

>>3321196

Then don't call it art.

>>3321195
Okay so let's say you're a concept artist on a deadline. You sit down and produce 2 identical concepts. In the first, you photobashed. In the second, you drew and rendered everything by hand. The results are identical down to the last pixel, the only difference is that the photobashed one took you 2 hours, and the fully drawn one took you 8.

Explain to me why not photobashing in this scenario is preferable.

>>3321200

I think the time factory is fine if you're on a deadline and everyone knows you're doing it.

But I'm seeing these 'amateur' artists who publish their photobashed-overpainted-traced work and NORMAL people think they are so fucking good, when theyre not.

If you're doing art, the time is not an excuse.
It kind of pisses me off.

>>3321198
It's still art retard

>>3321207

It's cutting corners. If you can't paint then don't make people think you can.

And I'm not talking about some professional concept artists, who could easily do the same work without bashing, and have to make 9000 paintings daily.

You can call me a retard, but at least I'm not a cheater.

If you weren't a scrub, a single figure with some bits of armor wouldn't even take you that long to sketch up.
And it'd look better and have a more distinct style as well.

OP pic looks like something for a nondescript flash game.

excusing photobashing for speed is like copying math answers from the back of the textbook because it's also faster than learning the material. do it if it makes sense. just realize if you're specializing as an artist you're so totally fucking yourself by not having the actual knowledge to do your own craft of specialization.

>>3321221
>>3321211
>>3321219
>>3321206
>>3321198
>>3321196
>>3321194
>>3321195
>>3321165
>>3320823
Ok, all of you, I'm not gonna argue with you shitty crabs, do it's very simple.

You have 4 hours to create a sci-fi landscape using photobashing. Yes, you MUST photobash.

Put up or shut up.

This is not even "post your work" if you can't create a decent piece of concept art using photobashing, then you have no room to talk about how "it's cheating" or cutting corners. If you can't do it, it's obviously not as easy as you like to pretend it is.

4 hours.

Show me what you got.

>>3321247
>if you can't create a decent piece of concept art using photobashing

nobody can, photobashing is not art.

>>3321247

Of course it's shitloads of easier than ACTUALLY PAINTING the damn thing.

And again, I'm mostly talking about these digital 'painters' who have like unlimited time to do their work and still use techniques like bashing.

Most people think you painted it and actually you just manipulated some other guys photos and made a piece out of them.

>>3321254
>>3321255
Shut the fuck up, and make the goddamn painting you shitty crabs. If you can't do it, then you've got no fucking room to be opening your goddamn mouth about shit beyond your skill level.

4 hours, I expect to see those paintings itt.

>>3321255
but if they are your photos(which they are art) and you manipulate them into one, aka photobash..why isn't the result also art?
checkmate

>>3321257
photbashing is as similar to painting as 3d modeling or cooking

>>3321261
I'm sorry, but you seem to have forgotten to attach a painting to your post.

If you can't produce a simple concept piece using photobashing, then you've got no room speaking your mind about something you've never even tried to do. You can therefore kindly take that shitty opinion of yours, and shove it up your ass. :)

>>3321260

If they are YOUR PHOTOS then it is a completely different thing. Usually they are not.

>>3321257

Nigga why u mad? Since when has art been a goddamn speed race? Ten seconds nigga! Make a fucking painting, ten seconds!

Thats fucked up right there.

So you can not paint normally, you need to do photo manipulations? Is that the case?

>>3321293
But if you buy them they are also yours even if you don't actually took them

>>3320823
>cheating
>bruh the old masters never had undo ps is cheating
>bruh paint tubes are cheating i had to crush my own palette

I have bills to pay so the faster I get work out and pay in the better. This isnt an ethical issue. For personal work I enjoy traditional methods and some people will pay you for that "look" but the big $$ is photoreal so guess what nigga I'm gonna sell out. You can have artistic integrity when you're rich or live very well below your means.

No rules just tools. (btw its still art)

>>3321293
>since when has art been a goddamn speed race?

If you are creating artwork in a work environment, you have strict deadlines, which aren't in the lines of weeks per piece, but several pieces per day.

That's what the workflow of photobashing was developed for, and that's what his 4 hour time limit is intended to simulate most likely.

People act like art is some higher form of creation, which exists outside the bounds of an economically inclined society. It's not. Some art forms (higher art) might be produced by a single artist over a long time, with the intention of only selling the single piece - and that's fine. But not all art is high art, and for those other works, where the artist earns the money either by selling prints or other duplicates of the art to a large audience, or where he gets commissioned to produce a piece according to a strict set of rules (which is not only limited to the content of the image, but also such things as deadlines), the time limits often necessitate the use of all tools available.
And even if the result might not measure up to such standards such as the ones inflicted upon the label of 'high art', it's still art nonetheless.

I dont like it, but i understand the need for it.
Working in companies where material needs to be produced at a high speed makes this technique very usefull

>>3320809
>"technique"

You mean scam. Always funny how salty losers try to crab beginners

>>3321311
How many people do you know that are professional? I think you really lack perspective on how slow and amateur a lot of professionals are in how they use their software, I'm talking to a degree where they click eraser/brush buttons and rarely use hotkeys at all. There is such a massive area of the professional workflow that is completely unoptimized, be it a lack of hotkeys, scripts, actions or knowledge that should come before you start using time as a justification for taking shortcuts to make up for ones inability.

>>3320809
>You're judged on the end result, not on the methods you used to get that end result

>It's only cheating if the artist tries to pass it off as something it isn't. It's a discipline separate from drawing and painting.

>Photobashing is used by professionals because its faster than painting in every detail, or construct perspective from scratch. The Client only cares about the end result.

>That's something hobbyists and amateurs worry about. Professionals wouldn't even think to ask such a useless question.

>No, no it's not.No rules, just tools. Art isn't a performance trade like acting you fucking idiot. You're judged on the end result, not on the methods you used to get that end result. You can make art using whatever method you like.

>There is no cheating in art, stop this egotistical meme.

>Shut the fuck up, and make the goddamn painting you shitty crabs. If you can't do it, then you've got no fucking room to be opening your goddamn mouth about shit beyond your skill level.4 hours, I expect to see those paintings itt.

>I have bills to pay so the faster I get work out and pay in the better. This isnt an ethical issue. For personal work I enjoy traditional methods and some people will pay you for that "look" but the big $$ is photoreal so guess what nigga I'm gonna sell out. You can have artistic integrity when you're rich or live very well below your means. No rules just tools. (btw its still art)

I think I have never seen so many useless "artists" in one thread. This deserves a screencap.

You shouldn't post such comments on /ic, but rather share them on your blogs, if you got the balls.

>>3321257
Why are you posting hand painted Feng Zhu paintings as examples of photobashing?

>>3321304
Stop roleplaying. No one is ever going to pay you money doing shitty photobashes. You have neither artistic integrity nor money.

I feel like this is the cancer of the art world.

And I feel bad that so many people who call themselves artsists think it's totally okay to do.

>>3320809

If you paid for the photo, sure.

>>3321320
>professionals
>click eraser/brush buttons

If you mean graphic designers pretending to be illustrators who get paid then yes. They're also the type who debate whether or not using a tablet is useful. If you're talking about painters/concept people and are not exaggerating with the button clicking I really cant believe you.

>>3321247
>this omelette isn't a dessert
>>put up or shut up. you have 4 minutes to make me a dessert. show me what you got.
>r u ok dude?

>be uneducated tard
>have no concept of art
>"Therefore everything must be art!"
>no integrity because what's the point
>cut every possible corner to create boring shit that's already been done to death
>can't even make basic artwork
>photo dependencies for everything, even style
>get mad at people who dislike what you do
>can't argue with them because you don't know anything about art
>"Whatever. Art is what i want it to be!"
>make bullshit troll threads and crab people endlessly by playing infinitely stupid

>>3320868
>You're judged on the end result, not on the methods you used to get that end result.
I wonder if there's even one person here that enjoys drawing

In conept art, how fast can you present an idea, a CONCEPT to the employer is the most important thing. It doesn't matter how you achieved the result, does it get the point across? You're not supposed to be creating art or illustration here, you're visualising ideas. Watch Maciej Kuciara's free vid where he talks about it.

>>3321385
I'm being hyperbolic to some degree when my point is really that a lot of people that try to use photobashing as a means to save time have other avenues that should be used. General hotkey use for zooming in and out, duplicating/deleting and navigating layers.
When you have some artists going to lengths to make their entire workspace ideal to working comfortably and others who don't even action the channel and level adjustment parts of their "im a professional, gotta go fast" photobash workflow I start to question their justification for using photos, to me its because they're hiding behind their own lack of ability.

>>3321411
Maciej is a hack that stands on the shoulders of innovators like Jama, not that I disagree with your statement but rather "speed" can be the result of cutting corners or mastery of a craft. Animators still sketch, Ridley Scott still sketches, so if the core reasoning here is that the idea or concept is whats important then what are all the tertiary details that a photo will inevitably leave in and clutter up a scene with for?

>>3321405
god i remember when i first saw that pic, i fucking hate her feet, they dont look human

>>3321411
>you're visualising ideas.
How valuable can your ideas truly be though when they are entirely dependent on the first page of google images search results?

>>3321423
it's not like concept artists do something unique or challenging. the intern down the hall can do their job pretty damn well if his tastes align with market demand.

>>3321427
They are responsible for the entire visual direction of a project. If that is not challenging, then that's a testament to the lack of quality of the project in question, not of the inherent lack of challenge in the job of a concept artist.

>>3321427
>>3321423
>I have no concept of aesthetic and design.

>>3321423
How valuable can SpaceX's recent accomplishments truly be though when they are entirely dependent on all the workers below them manufacturing the parts needed to build rockets?

>>3321432
>concept of aesthetic and design
there would be an argument here if these weren't long dead. pretty much every industry that you would hire a concept artist in is entrenched by the intersection of market demand and risk-free business. if you want fresh designs look to hiring an interior decorator before looking at concept artists.

>>3321436
That analogy makes sense in the case of very good photobashes, where the idea truly is something different than the sum of the photos that are being used. Unfortunately, most photobashing is more akin to the OP image, where the photo is already the main idea and more time and effort is put into obscurring what photo you used rather than actually designing something.

>>3321417
What has Jama been the front of? First time I hear someone titling him, is he old guard-tier like mullins or church or something?

>>3321442
You don't even draw, do you?

>>3321436
by this logic you achieve more by a single line of import code than the author of the library you import. the reality is the engineers in your example start from the shoulders of others and do *considerable* work configuring everything together. if you did that with photos at even a fraction of a comparable level you'd basically just be painting.

>>3321462
Well specifically in the "learnsquared" clique, if you look at who and where Maciej comes from (ND i believe, probably adopting the inhouse photobashing workflow that Eytan and others developed) and his output and compare it to the range of work and approaches Jama experiments with. Jama was one of the first to start experimenting with 3D tools from silhouettes in photoshop (others have done, I can name a few going back but no one known). That 3D experimentation bled into the VR type painting and general use of motion and animated work hes been doing lately. It sounds like im neck deep on this dudes dick when I just have a certain amount of respect for someone that pioneers vs someone that rests on their laurels.

>>3320823
Epic post. Include me in the screencap

>>3321464
i draw for studies mostly but i mainly prefer to paint.

I think there is a real issue here.

Concept artist who make 9000 shit sketches a day, okay use this method, its fine.

Other people who call their stuff digital paintings when they are just photo manipulations, go fuck yourselves you cheaters.

I am really shocked that so many so called artists think this shit is fine. Your audience wich is the people who know little to nothing about different techniques think that you painted them.

I'm not saying that photobashing is easy, but it's sure as hell a whole lotta easier than ACTUALLY FUCKING PAINTING IT.

>>3320809
well this looks like passable shit, so yeah it's great if you want to make passable shit.

>>3321525
we know though, and they know that we know. :)

>>3320809
For concept artists and illustrators who have strict deadlines to meet I think it's perfectly justifiable.

>>3320809
you're as good as google lets you be.

>>3320859
>cheating at what? Digital painting is not an olympic sport with a set of rules everyone who is competing has to follow

So don't call it painting then. Its fucking stupid that someone can have admiration for two artists ability to paint when one of them is the only that only ever paints.

>>3320860
>Professionals wouldn't even think to ask such a useless question.
And by that you mean they conveniently ignore criticism towards their lack of ability to understand how to actually "paint"?

>>3320860
Ive heard some professionals rant on photobashing before. Contrary to popular belief there are still concept artists that can create without needing google images.

>>3320868
So can I photobash other people concept art then? I mean at the end of the day I am only trying to get the end result.

>>3320823

excuses for what?

Digital is for commercial art. It's not about making shit stories to back your shit paintings so it attracts some moron with too much money to spend to impress his/her other rich moronic friends.

"the painter spend half a year painting a brown stained panties in a forest."

End your life. Please.

>>3321764
If you make enough changes to avoid copyright issues, then yes retard, no one cares besides some impotent autists on the internet.

>>3320857

It's fast but it also requires knowledge to make good use of it. Otherwise it's just photo collage. People who are good at photobashing are also good at drawing and painting.

>>3321764

Make enough changes that it doesn't look like the original. Then, yes. Go ahead.

Changing something or adding something while still retaining the original look and claim it as yours. No. That's stealing.

>>3321247
I don't think it's "cheating" or whatever.
It just looks like shit and only useful in mass media concept art, which is the most pointless endeavor you could take as an artist, since it's a whole industry dedicated to taking your skill and your work, and pouring it all into the trash on a 3 year production cycle.

The fact that /ic/ worships concept artists tells you enough about how serious you should take advice on here.

>>3321781

They do it for the money.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUr84yOV2huobZX2hmX7aPg

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCUr84yOV2huobZX2hmX7aPg

>>3321760

YES! If they're getting paid, what do they care what you think?

>>3321293
>Nigga why u mad? Since when has art been a goddamn speed race?

SINCE FOREVER YOU IGNORANT AMATEUR!

IT HAS ALWAYS BEEN A SPEED RACE!

>>3321786
I know that you gotta pay the bills and the romantic idea of an artist who does it for the art is pretty much a fantasy for 99% of people, but I still wonder how someone can live with the fact that none of the works they make for some middle ware production studio will ever be appreciated, and will pretty much go straight into the trashcan of history after the release.
Nobody has ever paused a Star Wars movie and said "wow, I really like the way this alien monster looks in the background of the scene at the 00:34:12 mark, I'd better find out his name and look at his work".
Nobody has ever given a single solitary shit about any concept art, the best you can hope for is having some of your work printed on a tiny booklet in a $100 collector's edition box that only some tryhard nerds are going to buy, flick through the pages a couple of times and put it on a shelf.

>>3321772
I know right, why be actually... good?!

>>3321792
I think they should care if they consider what they do as painting.

>>3321247

I never said it was easy as in everyone can do it, I'm just not a fan of the result.

>>3321808
>I think they should care

THAT was your first mistake.

>>3321801

Ralph McQuarrie who created a lot of the original Star Wars concept art painted everything by hand, and he's a household name for sure. Even normies know his name.

>>3321247
>no one you quoted actually posted their work
a thonker isn't it

>>3321801
concept artist become concept artist because they are nerds who like to create cool shit and want to work for games or movies thats it.

its not about leaving a legacy of art and become famous thats what autistic fine artists with low self esteem do.

fucking autistic faggots, picasso himself was the first ever to glue photos on a canvas to mix it with paint you fucking idiots.

close this fucking thread already jesus christ the whole of /ic/ is one fucking ongoing shitpost


strait out from wikiped

>Collage in the modernist sense began with
>Cubist painters Georges Braque and Pablo
>Picasso. According to some sources, Picasso
>was the first to use the collage technique in oil
>paintings.

>>3321833
Basically.

/ic/ is full of retards who talk big shit, pretend the know what's up, but can't deliver results. If they'd actually tried it, they'd quickly have realized it's not as easy as it looks, and that calling it "cheating" is fucking retarded, as the same fundies you need to make a painting, are also required to make a photobashed matte painting. One would hope this would have humbled them, but deep down they knew this, they know they're wrong, they just wanted to shitpost. Half of them don't even draw or paint, I guarantee it.

Regardless, time limit is way overdue, all of them fail, and have no business pretending they know fuck all about art. Disregard each and every one of those posts, and the ones insisting afterwards as well, they are all written by absolute morons.

Same thing applies to tracing btw. These same retards don't know how to trace properly. I guarantee you, I could give them a similar challenge, provide the reference, and ask for a stylized image using the same pose, and nobody would try it cause they know they'd get instantly btfo.

Long story short, don't listen to /ic/, no rules, just tools, people here are simply too retarded to grasp that, and that's why they'll never make it.

Also, this:
>>3321877

>>3321930
I think a lot of you people talk past each other rather than really trying to address what is being said, be it due to poor communication skills or a misunderstanding of the message.
Words like cheating or shortcut aside, what merit to an individual is there to use these methods of working? Is there something wrong about aspiring to reach an understanding and familiarity with fundamentals where by you can create things purely from imagination?
Whenever this topic comes up most if not all of the justifications only really amount to appeal to authority type arguments, "professionals do it, therefore it is ok", if we use time as the main incentive then this will most likely fall apart when you look at the time variance between skilled and unskilled artists who use photobashing, ignoring the fact that industries like animation where time is also incredibly tight still primarily sketch their boards and layouts.

>>3321945
Because people assume that doing photobash or tracing means you never do regular stuff, work in traditional, or draw from imagination. When any intelligent artist will do ALL of those things, and also have no qualms using whatever useful tools are available. Photobashing and Tracing are incredibly powerful tools in the hands of someone who knows what they are doing. There's nothing inherently wrong in using them, and it's fucking retarded to have sone dogmatic aversion toward them and people who use them because you believe it's cheating. It's not, it's called working smart. They are tools and they have a useful merit in specific circumstances. Why the fuck would you assume someone who loves art enough to make it their professional career wouldn't all appreciate the finer points of it, abd continueously work on improving their skills no matter how good they get.

It's this elitist bullshit around here:
>their work is so much better than mine, but I don't photobash or trace, therefore clearly I'm the better and more skilled artist

When in fact, you're so amateurish you can't even see the skills that go behind the making of what you like to call cheating, and you can't even imagine that the person you're attacking also likely regularly does paintings the normal way, and STILL totally blow you out of the water.

>>3321951
Photobashing and tracing don't exercise your ability to create in the same way as trying to understand and represent that form yourself though, there are MTG Artists like Leesha Hannigan who find the studies done by https://twitter.com/MathiasZamecki/status/944852572652924928 to be intimidating, but to bring that up is going to branch the argument out into what is "difficult" which is too subjective.
I think the aversion to using the kinds of tools that don't force your brain to interpret the information as a 3d form are akin to using whatever steroid or performance enhancing type substance, it ceases to be a representation of your ability at that point in time. Similar to how someone mentioned having a math textbook to answer a test as its not a summation of what you know. You mention "intelligent" artists having a range of work and how those that make a career out of it will work to improve, I wish this were true for my experience with those in the industry. When I look around I see more stagnation, ego and complacency than I do people striving to better themselves, I think those that persue a wide range of methods and do use these things as you idealize are so few and far between that it may be a big reason why people view them so negatively. When you have people thirsting after followers on twitter and tumblr or chasing patreon porn money it doesn't take the most astute to notice how the drive for a lot of artists is incredibly shallow.
I hope your take on professional artists is real for whatever studio, area or company you keep because that'll no doubt allow you to make something interesting.

The real problem is that you want to be a concept artist.

You should reconsider your life choices.

>>3321979
Again, your issue should be with the artists who don't seek to improve, than with the tools themselves. Tracing and photobashing are techniques that have a place in the production pipeline, AND they can also be used to enhance creativity by forcing "happy accidents."

What I see from /ic/ isn't any genuine concern for other people's improvement, no, I see jealousy, and a need to rationalize the abilities of people more skilled and more hard-working than them.

You wanna know what REALLY causes stagnation? Shitposting on 4chan all day, and wasting your time jacking it to porn and playing vidya all day instead of drawing.

No one here bothered to take the challenge, and that includes you. You have no room to talk, you're unwilling to open your minds to ideas that conflict with your establiahed beliefs. You are not artists, artists are OPEN, curious about the world, and exploring new ideas. An artist doesn't concern themselves with what should or should not be done, on the contrary, they're always seeking to find new ways of doing things. You are all wannabes and posers with a stick wayyyy too far up your collective asses.

>>3322351
Like I've said though, improvement comes from not using tricks and gimmicks as you're forced to confront your lack of knowledge. You're not really offering a reason as to why tracing and photobashing have a place in production, the argument nearlly always comes down to time with the other justification being that the idea is what is important. The Star Wars character/fashion designs were crude at best yet conveyed the idea, looking at the image posted in OP it isn't needed to sell the concept at all. That isn't an argument for or against the use of a photo in that instance, it would have been marginally quicker to draw armor over a photo (if you had it to hand) than to sketch a quick silhoutte - if you didn't have to find the image prior to drawing then the reasoning for doing it is all but moot, you've lost time by looking for reference.

If you've spent any amount of time here you know that posting your work accomplishes nothing. You should also be willing to lead by example, take the challenge yourself and prove people what is possible otherwise your words are empty. Your challenge was done in a way that only those that participated would lose, you could attack them freely without ever putting yourself up for judgement.

>>3322469
I'm not the one arguing that photobashing is cheating, and there are dozens of examples of people who can complete the challenge, and do high level work.

I gain nothing from doing it, except a diversion of the intended topic, which is to get morons who think it's cheating to humble themselves by getting them to realize photobashing properly also takes actual skill, and there is difference in output based on skill level.

Under that pretense, how the fuck is it cheating?

I fail to understand how someone can argue that, unless they're jealous retards who flat out don't understand what goes into it.

>>3320809
It's not art, it's photo manipulation. In that sense, it's perfectly fine. What's not fine is raw photobashers posting something they cobbled together from stock images and saying "I made this".

>>3322495
Perhaps we need to talk about what you define "cheating" as then. Do you consider taking steriods in the olympics cheating? Is taking a math test with all the answers next to you cheating? What does the person learn by doing a math test with the answers by their side when the finished paper has nothing to do with what they do or do not know.
You've now brought up skill which is going to get us into semantics somewhat, does drawing a car vs using a photo require more or less skill? Is an artist at the level of Thomas Romain going to have more or less insight into design and composition?
I am aware that there are those that use a photo of a car while being capable of drawing it which again brings us back to the time reasoning, something you've yet to address - If an artist is faster when not having to spend time finding reference then in a production environment there is no reason to use this method to produce the work.
I'm glad you're aware that you gain nothing from doing your challenge because that is true for everyone, don't think yourself above those when you're not willing to put anything on the line either. You won't say where you work, how much experience you have because you rightly have nothing to gain.
My answer to how it is cheating would be that its cheating yourself, similar to using a math textbook to help you solve the problems. What you're producing is not an accurate representation of what you know. You're yet to offer up what these methods give the artist that aren't better attained through other means of practice.

Do you have an email, a throwaway that I can send things to so I can understand where you're coming from.

Half-measures for hacks.

>>3322519
>Do you consider taking steriods in the olympics cheating?
Art is not a performance trade, you're judged by the end result.
>Is taking a math test with all the answers next to you cheating?
Art is not a performance trade, YOU'RE JUDGED BY THE END RESULT

Art is not a competition, nor an exam. It's not a test. It's creativity. The role of an artist isn't to "be the best" at something. It's to create something that resonates with people.

> If an artist is faster when not having to spend time finding reference then in...

You have never worked in a production environment, and clearly, you've never bothered to paint either. When you sit down to paint something, BEFORE you even put a brush to canvas, you need to have already planned out the ENTIRE process of production. The composition, the color, the render, etc.... Finding reference, whether is be for photobashing, or for painting from it, IS part of that process. ALL artists use reference. Many artists in fact set up appointments with models well prior to beginning a project in order to get the reference necessary to have accuracy, and ALL artist have done this, from Michaelangelo, to modern professionals.

This is why many artists in production already have a large collection of reference, and know how to use photos for their texture or their forms, rather than their subject matter. Because you don't have DAYS to plan ahead a painting, you have minutes to an hour. Yes, it IS faster, and coming from the elitist and critical angle of someone who has NEVER worked in production only shows how ignorant you are about it all.

>My answer to how it is cheating would be that its cheating yourself,
You clearly know nothing about art or creativity. You also know nothing about what it's like to create art as a PRODUCT, for WORK. It's very easy to be an elitist twat when you're a NEET who stands in the sidelines and snides at those who actually put the work into being professionals.

>>3322519
>hurr, why do scientists and mathematicians use calculators instead of doing the formulas on paper or in their head, that's CHEATING
This is how you sound.

>>3322542
You're judged by the end result in both sports and academics, if you had a math textbook for all your tests through school you'd have the grades misrepresent what the person knew. >>3322549 Those fields are required to prove their understanding of the subject prior to that, you understand your multiplication tables and you're rewarded often more or equal points in tests for showing your working as you are the answer.
You're speaking of creativity while also trying to justify relying on compositions and information borrowed from photos or other artists, there will be artists taking their own photos and functioning as the director, photographer and illustrators but not all.
https://youtu.be/J5LbtfuJlJ8?t=2376 So in this instance, when the background art director and storyboard artist are sketching without a plethora or reference infront of them what exactly is happening? They're creating something fantastical.
Making assumptions about someones background is never really wise, not everyone works the same not every studio has a culture of photobashing and there are working artists that will speak negatively about tracing and photobashing - so regardless of whether or not they're a "professional" you'd call them wrong as you're so deeply rooted in your opinion.
Here are a pair of old studies from 2014 to give an indication of where my technical ability is coming from. Would you like to make a throwaway email?

>>3322680
You can't photobash properly if you don't have knowledge of the fundamentals of art you idiot. It's the exact same thing as the mathmaticians and calculators analogy. Calculators speed up the process, but in order to make proper use, you need to be trained in Math.

>Those fields are required to prove their understanding of the subject prior to that
And this also holds true for artists. Otherwise you get turds that look like shit.

>You're speaking of creativity while also trying to justify relying on compositions and information borrowed from photos or other artists...
Because all creativity stands on the shoulders of others. Nothing comes from nowhere. Everything that's ever been created by a human being, comes from a collective effort of thousands of people before them.

And no, you're not judged by the end result in academics and sports. Otherwise steroids and copying your neighbors answers would be allowed. Academics and sports are intensely focused on your METHOD as their purpose is MEASURE your ability.

Once you graduate from academics, you're allowed to use computers, and calculators, and collaborate with other scientists, as your ability is already innate, and nobody fucking cares if you're better than the guy next to you. What they care about is whether or not you're able to combine your trained ability with whatever tools available to you to produce results.

Like, imagine if scientists took the same dogmatic approach to science that you're suggesting should be taken toward art. NOTHING would ever be accomplished. It's downright stupid.

Look kid, you're clearly still a rookie who's got ways to go. Keep studying, and keep training your ability. In a learning stage, yes, you should NOT photobash or trace, you won't grow. But it's perfectly fine for professionals to make use of any tools available to them to push the boundaries of their creativity.

>>3322680
And no, I will not give my email to argue with some dumb kid who cannot grasp something that is self-evident, and denies whatever argument is presented to them because they're more concerned with being right, than in learning something new.

It's not cheating. Grow up.

>>3322747
Didn't I say the same thing to you a moment ago? I explicity said;
>Making assumptions about someones background is never really wise, not everyone works the same not every studio has a culture of photobashing and there are working artists that will speak negatively about tracing and photobashing - so regardless of whether or not they're a "professional" you'd call them wrong as you're so deeply rooted in your opinion.
What argument am I denying? You're basically saying that even if I prove to you that I work professionally you're not interested in what I have to say, at least attempt to meet me half way.
Still I somewhat see where you're coming from and fortunately you're not opposed to having an understanding of fundamentals. It's a bit confusing that you don't see the huge number of artists in animation and game studios that don't use these methods at all. I imagine you're not Anjin though, that would make this very amusing.

>>3322744
Lastly, if game studios and concept artist positions required the same level of evaluation of technical ability and understanding before getting the job it'd be very different - the reality is that in the games industry nepotism and luck are as much a factor in getting a position as the quality of your work. It'd be as if scientists jumped to using their shortcuts without years of understanding the what and why. Given that you want people to explore and be creative surely you see that there are a lot of amateur artists using these in place of learning as opposed to a means to create something more?

>>3322783
>>3322769
But you're not a professional, you can stop roleplaying now.

A professional doesn't make retarded sweeping statements like saying photobashing is "cheating" despite the fact that's in been used very effectively by very skilled artists since Picasso's time.

Your understanding of art is incredibly narrow-minded and shallow.

>>3322845
Professional
2.
engaged in a specified activity as one's main paid occupation rather than as an amateur.

Do you want paypal invoice information and emails? Shall I give you company referal emails?

>>3322845
>>3322869
Not that it strengthens my argument its just you seem to have this notion that ones argument and reasoning is in someway strengthened by whether or not they get paid to do something. Not that I'd expect you to change your mind as i've stated multiple times now.

>>3322869
>>3322872
Doing porn commissions for nerds is not the same as getting hired in the industry for films and games and book covers because of your portfolio and professionalism.

If you wanna prove me wrong, feel free to post your artstation profile. That'll shut me up real good.

Again, you know fuck all about the production pipeline, stop pretending you know better cause you draw furry porn for degenerates.

>>3322887
https://www.artstation.com/danpeacock

>>3322893
>photobashing is cheating!!
>posts a profile with photobash techniques being used

Well, that's enough of that then... I think we're done here.

Advice for the future: don't post other people's profiles and try to pass them off as your own.

Example? Or do you need PSD files? What next a photo of my studio security card?

>>3322893
hahahahaha you autist you picked the worst possible profile for your argument lmao

>>3321525
I think this post sums up everything nicely.

In a work environment where you're getting paid for your concepts, photobashing is acceptable because speed is the name of the game. As someone who doesn't work in but does follow the concept art industry closely, this is something that is done throughout the industry. You're presenting an IDEA to your boss so that the modelers and other guys can take that and make it into a feasible asset. Most of your stuff is internal-facing, meaning it's for the company, not to hang on a wall and ogle at (even though it can look quite cool). Your value as a concept artist is to pin down how to communicate a concept as quickly and accurately as possible.

If you're painting to sell your pieces to a client, particularly one who doesn't know much about art, they expect everything to be done completely by you. If you're going to collage stuff together, they better know about it, be okay with it, and you better be using royalty-free images. In this sense you're usually selling the art itself, not just the concept contained within.

>>3323009
To a degree. If post-modern art can literally be red paint on a canvas, photobash techniques are also valid if the result is appealing to the customer. Like say for example, the customer who isn't knowledgeable about art, sees an artist's portfolio, which is full of photobash paintings, and likes that rough "concept art" look to it, so they hire him to make a painting. The customer doesn't care about your method, they want the result, and they've seen what your work looks like before hand, so there's no dishonesty involved, just ignorance on the behalf of the customer. And at the end of the day, they are PAYING you, to have something they wanna put on their wall, not for the method, or hours you put into it. Otherwise collage wouldn't be valid, yet many people like to have collage artwork in their homes too.

That said, I do agree the stock photos better be either royalty free, or taken by you.

>>3323053
Yes, I agree. Fair point about collage as well- there are several great collage artists out there that make that their 'signature'.

>>3320823
Nice bait

But no it's not cheating. It's just a shortcut. A job may not require you to make finished illustrations but instead to come up with designs on a very fast pace. Your employers won't care how it came to be as long as it's not copyright. All that matters is if the concept works.

>>3323271
So if its faster for the artist not to use photos thats the better method in that instance. If the concept works and conveys the idea its done its job after all.

>>3321877

>yfw overpainting isn't real painting but rembrandt used a camera obscura

>>3323638
>rembrandt

v e r m e e r

>>3323009
>Your value as a concept artist is to pin down how to communicate a concept as quickly and accurately as possible.
You do realize that photobashing is by far the worst technique to do that, right? It literally sacrifices accuracy for the sake of looking good superficially. This is what so many of you guys don't get. Photobashers aren't hired to design shit, they are hired to create cool pre-vis scenes that can be shown to investors etc, or later in the project can be some visual guidelines. The real design work is not done via photobashing and handing a 3D modeler a photobash would be a complete waste of time as they wouldn't know what to do with it at all.

Just copy paste someone else's stuff.
You're judged by the end result, not the means after all.

>>3323792
>still butthurt he got btfo
Kek

>>3323271

>nice bait

Are you kidding me?

>>3321877

So now you compare yourself to a fucking Picasso?