/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

This is the second painting I have done using this technique, which was extremely helpful.

>>3298234
>subtractive colors
Get that archaic shit out of here.

If it doesn't explain techniques like mixing purple and green to get blue then it's outdated.

>>3298247
I knew that presenting this to /ic/ is akin to feeding pearls to swine. I guess you think you are being edgy, you don't even know what you are talking about and I could give two fucks if you use this resource or not.

For any anons wanting to really improve there skills and understand what they are doing for FREE check this out and ignore this retard.

>>3298250
why in the fuck would you mix purple and green to get blue? JFC.

This is really an improved Zorn palette.

thanks OP

>>3298234
you're not the first person to post him here. a lot of people appreciate his work even on digital.

>>3298234
I've been posting links to DrawMixPaint for quite some time. He's an excellent resource for beginning painters.

>>3298250
Color theory isn't time sensitive, you spergelord. What he's showing is accurate, appropriate, and meaningful.

>>3298255
Don't you know you shouldn't display your shitty personality when you shill your 3rd rate product?

>>3298353
Fuck off, spastic. DrawMixPaint has better things to do than waste time on assholes like you. It's pissy little tryhard shitheads like you, in this crab bucket of a forum, that makes it pointless, and why I only come around when I'm bored, like now.

You will never make it as an artist with your shit attitude. Grow up, kid.

>>3298356
Man, you're trash.

>>3298357
That's all you got, little boy? Shoo, adults are talking. Back in the bucket with your shitty little attitude.

>>3298356
>>3298362
A thread died because of this shithead. Don't know which but i'm sure it was a loss.

>>3298339
your welcome it is a great resource wish I had found it early.

>>3298343
>>3298345
Nice to hear, spread the word anons, any of you on the DMP forum?

>>3298353
My personality has nothing to do with the content I posted, logical fallacy ad hominid.
As I said in post not shilling, if you can't get anything from his site you are not going to make it or have already found a fantastic method, which I know you havn't. Saying DMP is a 3rd rate product only shows you are fucking a retarded, did I offend you, more of my shitty personality offending blue haired special snowflake faggots like you. Now fuck off.

>>3298391
Boo hoo. Nobody is running down the valley with your flag, pissy boy.

>>3298234
Thanks asshole.

>>3298343
Curious as to how digital painters uses Carders DMP method as it is made for oil painting?
t. traditional fag never digital

Carders as well of a lot of the members on the DMP forum recommend light room and photo shop to come up with the best reference photos possible, but never seen any digital.

>>3298348
The thing it is, everything in the arts has degraded except our understanding of color, and that's thanks to the invention of the light bulb. CMY are the new primary subtractive colors from what we've learned from light. It's retarded that the archaic tradition of using RYB has been maintained for so long.
Limiting your colors is a good thing but pretending like RYB is the end all means for getting the widest range of color from three colors is retarded.

>>3298247
explain?

>>3298412
I think it's pretty clear to everyone that you're an obnoxious asshole. Is that the flag you're talking about?

>>3298257
you complete misunderstand the point of the zorn palette
the drawmixpaint guy is alright even if he shills his shit too hard in the videos, still decent

Yellow and blue dont make green. its the name of a book. google it. i glanced at op its bullshit most red and blue mixes of oil paint wont make green and even orange if you want it vivid you really need orange paint. greens you can use yellow and blue though. ironically.

i meant purple not green

>>3298637
he specifically states that. you don't need any more than the colors shown to produce +99% of the colors you'll paint every day with. for the times you need "power" colors like some oranges, greens, blues, etc. then you'll use a small amount of them. but those colors don't have to always be in your palette.

>>3298234
Thanks a lot anon, this are the kind of threads we should see in this board.

>>3298637
>Yellow and blue dont make green.
>greens you can use yellow and blue though. ironically.
wat

>most red and blue mixes of oil paint wont make green
wat

>>3298255
He's making a joke based on shared knowledge of color theory. Stop getting pissy at every little thing

>>3298637
I didn't know it was possible to be this retarded. Now I know. My life will never be the same.

>>3298234
I've watched some of his vids on youtube.
His method is valuable to learner painters, but no good for anyone painting high key, or plein air, etc
And his landscapes are Bob Ross tier, really bad, no understanding of how pictures showing the outside world work.

>>3298414
you are welcome cunt

>>3298510
Never knew what the "point" of the Zorn Palette. I always assumed it was for simplicity. Imo Carders palette is better, just as simple can get %99 colors as this anon stats >>3298655
Watch
The Zorn Limited Palette & more – Ep.6 Oil Painting Q&A with Mark Carder
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TNlW50-fI-k&t=603s

>>the drawmixpaint guy is alright even if he shills his shit too hard in the videos
Are you some fucking commie that expects everything for free? First of all with Carder you can get everything for free or make his products yourself (he has free vids showing you how). I have made a shadow box,brush holder, pallet and palette holder from his vids.
Here is a vid he made showing you how to save paint. Made just for (((you))).
How not to waste oil paint
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6yQm08Cku0

>>3298729
Your welcome, it is a great site, very supportive and knowable members on the forum as well,
should check it out.

>>3298757
Dude I am fucking around as well, it if fun to larp as an asshole. I have been hanging around on /biz/ and /pol/ rarely come to this board as it fucking sucks, craps in a bucket mentality and a bunch of childish neets, It's like the quote by Brick Top from Snatch "If I throw a dog a bone, I don't want to know how it taste"

If you use software like krita, Corel or manga studio this color theory and paint mixing applies. Sorry Photoshop

>>3299369
oh your just a shitty troll
nevermind enjoy your threat :)

>>3299352
There is a saying
"Its the Indian not the arrow"

Carders method (and he says this) is not an end all be all. It is a starting foundation and method for one to accurately asses and apply value and color. Imo what Carder and the DMP method teach are the fundamental foundation that any artist should know and work from.
You can go on the DMP forum and see there are people using his method to achieve "high key" paintings of all genre.
Agree with you about Carders landscapes, not a huge fan.
If you know of a better method out there, especially one that is free please share.

I have been working with his method for a few months. It has been the most liberating approach to painting I have ever found as it demystifies all the bs you find in art theory and lays out a very practical and reproducible method of painting.

>>3298655
oh my bad ill watch the video then

>>3299369
>Are you some fucking commie that expects everything for free?

Not that anon, but I'm sure everything you offer is available for free anyways, so you're merely preying off the ignorant. Also, I think the point is more about the quality of the video. If your stuff is good, it will sell, people get annoyed if you're really obvious about selling stuff to them.

I didn't watch the whole vid though, so I don't know if you really were doing that.

>>3298234
>mixing with a brush

>>3298510
>>3299443
Anon,ffs, I am not Mark Carder, just a 4chan artfag that likes his method and wants to share this little gem to you fuckers.

In all seriousness for you and those art anons out there that are interested. The products he shills are awesome, and once again he shows you how you can make a lot of them.

His oil paints are probably a little bit more then average, not much, but the quality is amazing. Not only that but they last much longer on your palette so in the long run saves you money, plus you can reuse your unused pallet paints, like in the video I shared. I store my pallets in a air tight watercolor container (forgot product) and my paints stay wet for weeks, plus I dont need to re mix.

Another thing that is awesome that he sells is his brush dip, you do not need to clean your brushes after every use, and if you are not going to be painting for a while you can re dip every two weeks without fear of your brushes being ruined by paint drying in them. The brushes I have in pic have not been used for almost a month only dipped twice and ready to go.

I am sure I sound like I am a salesman for the company, there products are great, anons can decide for themselves.

Pic realted is shit bought and shit made from DMP and Geneva paints.

>>3298254
that shit has always mind fucked me.
honestly, you can have a pretty sick limited palette with dioxazine purple, phthalo green, and quinacridone magenta. They aren't opaque though, so shit might be wack.

>>3298404
>ad hominid

>>3299381
Programs that offer similar color mixing to "paint mixing" are just that, similar. Paint has more properties than just HSL.

>>3299486
His paints contain clove oil. If you add clove oil to any paint you will increase their drying time significantly

So I browsed through his works.

For someone who made an entire site about color theory, his colors sure are shit. Look at this, I'd expect to find it on some deviant art page, or in an illustration for a children's history book.

No wonder his colors are shit, he advocates for a limited palette and thinks subtractive mixing can produce additional hues, LOL.
Pro tip: if you have less than 14 pigments on your palette, you're shit.

>>3302058
Please don't listen to this guy he knows nothing about colour.

You can create any colour you'd need with just white, titanium buff, a warm and cool yellow, a warm and cool red, and a warm and cool blue. Being incapable of doing so would make you shit.

This guy's paintings are god awful but that doesn't mean you need 14+ pigments.

>>3298440
radiosity doesnt exist

>>3302063
Richard schmid uses a wide palette and you're just some faggot from /ic/, so guess who I'm gonna listen to.

Guess what, pigments are minerals that reflect a certain color. If you want to reproduce a certain color, you need a specific combination of pigments that will achieve that color.

No amount of mixing will produce colors out of thin air. And guess what, mixing white and black don't add intensity to color, on the contrary, they wash colors out.
And 14 is just the minimum. You need three pigments for all seven colors: warm, neutral and cool to achieve full range.

>>3302071
best post

>>3298432
Newb to color theory here, what are the consequences of CMY being the new primaries?

>>3298432
I didn't say it was the "end all means". You are. I said that the material he's presenting isn't useless, and is accurate, in the context of painting.

There's too much neckbearding in this thread, but here are my thoughts - I'm not looking for an argument, or looking to change my mind, this is what I think, based on being an artist for over 30 years:

If you're learning oil painting, his lessons are great, because they're mostly about learning how to see color, and then mixing them. The Zorn palette is a great place to start - yes, it's a limited gamut compared to a full CMY based palette, but IT WORKS IN PAINTING. Most of the time, you don't need the saturation of a full CMY palette. Yes, CMY is a good palette to work with. I was trained in color correction and worked in print publishing for years. I know CMY, it's power, *and* it's limitations. The Zorn palette, or the one DMP is showing, isn't intended to recreate every color of the visible spectrum, no paint gamut can do that. He's showing how, using a limited palette, you can achieve any color in the gamut that most people will use painting - and that colors that fall outside of that gamut will be the colors in the extra tubes that will be in your paint box. I learned the basic Zorn mentality in college for oil and watercolor. They wanted us to learn to mix color, not just reach for a tube every time, it's a useful skill to have, and it's part of learning to see color - and that aspect of the lessons is crucial whether you're oil painting or working digitally. That's why a digital artist CAN learn from DrawMixPaint, because he's teaching how to SEE color, and how to CHOOSE color, and how to create perception of color. Doesn't matter if it's paint, or pixels.
But if you just want to neckbeard over minute points or issues that aren't important or just shitpost, have at it - it's what 4chan is known for. But I stand by my comments that his videos have value, a lot of you just don't understand why.

>>3302071
What range? What gamut specifically are you talking about? The full visible spectrum? 3 pigments can't cover it, CMY only covers a small portion. See graphic.

And don't start huffing and puffing about CMY, either, i think split palette is a great innovation, and one I've explored. Does it cover a wider range? Yes, obviously. The old thinking on color palettes leaned heavily towards muted colors, when it came to oil paint, the more earthy, muted palette, which is generated from a specific set of primaries, that are muted to begin with. It's what was pleasing to the eye, in most cases, and a good place for beginners to start from - and add to as they grow as painters. Take my basic watercolor pallette -I was taught to start with yellow ochre, cadmium red, and ivory black, with cerulean and ultramarine for blues. You can cover most subjects with that - basic portraits, basic landcapes, still life. Can I paint the wider gamut of color in say the Grand Canyon? No. So I need to add different colors to do that. My palette has grown to include alizarin crimson, several shades of yellow, Payne's Grey, umbers, ochres, and some of the more bright colors, for specific paintings. By learning to mix to paint what I see, and learning what is out of the gamut of the basic palette was an important lesson. Some colors, you have to supplement. Some colors are just lazy - I can mix a sap green, but it's easier to just have a tube of it.

The whole point of limited palettes isn't to stay there forever. it's to force the student to THINK about color, and learn how to mix. Yes, the Zorn palette is a limited gamut, but that's okay, it's not trying to reproduce the entire spectrum.

>>3302079
there's no new primaries, any three colors spaced evenly around the color wheel can be primary. the difference is that they have more color resolution at different brightnesses. so cmy has a lot of bright colors, but as you go down to darker tones you end up with sallow desaturated colors (which makes cmy not great for trad. painting). ryb is slightly better for darker tones and mid tones and vog is best for lots of rich dark colors. luckily in painting you can use whatever whenever so you can have a fuller range all the way down unlike computer stuff

A good summary that's WAY more in depth is here:

http://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/color13.html#compsat

The end is exactly what I'm trying to say:

Artists Mix Paints, Not Colors. So why don't all artists use this best of all possible palettes? Because our focus all along has been on maximum chroma — and for many artists chroma is not by itself important. What matters to them is the specific selection of paints.

Some artists use a large palette in order to tackle complex design problems, or introduce wider variations in pigment texture, transparency, or handling attributes, or simply to minimize the task of mixing paints to produce specific colors. Others use a reduced palette of four or six paints to create a more cohesive color harmony, or they choose paints with lower chroma in order to achieve subdued, classicizing landscape effects. Most artists seek a middle ground: they rely on a preferred set of about 10 or 12 paints to meet most of their painting needs, but occasionally add one or more paints to this basic palette to get a specific saturated hue, pigment texture, or color effect.

By itself, a color theory color wheel can't guide your paint choices or palette design. It emphasizes hue over value and chroma, geometrical symmetry over gamut shape, and abstract color concepts over actual paints. It tells you nothing about paint selection strategy. So by negative example the tertiary wheel illustrates that there is more involved in palette design than abstract color geometry: artists mix paints, not "colors".

In other words, you're confusing color theory with actual paint mixing.

>>3298234
I dont give a shit about traditional Art, does he have videos on Color Theory?

>>3302071
I never said you needed black in fact I'd advise to never use it in a painting.

I didn't say that smaller palettes are superior I'm just saying that if you don't know how to get good results with something limited then you'll never be able to utilise a larger palette as well as Richard Schmid.

>>3302294
i don't know about that, black is fine, bit redundant since you usually just mix a chromatic black from blue and brown though

>>3302294
>>3302300
I'd say mixing with black is pointless, but using pure black on its own has merit if you're doing highly stylized work.

Nothing beats a strong, deep BLACK shape as a design element.

>>3302160
Then get the fuck out of a thread about mixing oil paint you reprobate.

>>3302305
Oh jesus, I hate when people say dont put out black, its almost as bad as dont put out white. Also dont mix it? Wtf? The most common black is ivory black which doesnt dry well on its own, it's finish will be a mix of shiny and matte, so you want to mix it with umber or something even if you want a pure black shape. Also, black works very well for mixing if you want to make something grayer and darker, without making it more brown. It mixes well with transparent colors like alizerin (use permanant or just pyroll ruby red if you are mixing w black anyway) ultramarine as well as in glazing.

>>3302305
>>3302408
Mixing with black kills the vibrance in your work. It has its merits in certain situations or stylized work but generally it makes things look so bland.

It's similar to what I was saying before about a limited palette, if you can't manage to work without black then you won't be able to manage to use it correctly.

>>3302071
This isn't strictly true, whilst minerals reflect different wavelengths of light, resulting in different colours, a lot of the perceived colours in pigment paints come from the diffraction of light between the different minerals, and the oil medium itself, as well as the light of the environment the paint is in. You can produce a lot more colours than pure mixing would suggest you could because of this.

>>3302530
As a side point to this, this is why oil washed layers seem to give expert works that "glowing" look, it's the diffraction.

The reason I know these things is that I did my master's thesis in physics on this topic.

>>3302408
Most teachers tell students to not use black, because it becomes a crutch. Black is fine, if uses properly. There are few instances in nature where a pure black occurs, but beginning artists will make mistakes like "shadow = black". They want the students to look at the shadows and learn to see color, warm or cool.
Black has a place on the palette, but beginning students need to learn when and where to use it. That's all.

>>3302530
DrawMixPaint approaches this in his texture video - you don't always paint the texture itself, you paint the perception of a texture. By changing the value and hue of the colors, you can paint the perception of the fuzz on a peach, by giving the eye perceptual cues it's there. The eye and the mind will "fill in the blanks" in certain circumstances, and will optically mix colors, especially when viewed from a distance. The most famous example is the "Raft Of The Medusa", by Géricault. Instead of painting white droplets of water, he knew the viewer would be far away from the canvas, because it's a very large piece. (16'x20' feet, IIRC) Instead, he painted stripes of red, green and blue, which mix in the eye at a distance as white. The larger you work, the more this kind of thing comes into play, and it's harder to implement this kind of thing digitally, because digital is viewed so close to the eye.

>>3302532
Parrish is the best example of this.

http://www.bpib.com/illustrat/parrishc.htm

I've been wanting to try his technique, but it takes forever, and I need to get some copal varnish and pumice 'flour".

Like he said, the masters figured out that transparent washes created the most beautiful colors and effects.

>>3302521
You dont mix it in with everything you dingbat. Not every part of your painting is supposed to be vibrant.

>>3302532
>>3302619

Just fyi for anyone wondering, I'm pretty sure by "wash" we mean slightly thinned oil paint scrubbed onto the surface so that a very thin layer is left over. It isn't like a watercolour or acrylic wash where you just add tons of medium and it's fine. If your mix is more than 50% medium (oil and thinner) to paint, your painting will get fucked up over time. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

>>3302609
>Instead, he painted stripes of red, green and blue, which mix in the eye at a distance as white.

I call total bullshit. A) Why mix and paint 3 colours to get the same result as just using white? B) Pigments don't mix like light mixes, red, blue, and green will give you brown or gray. C)There is a 5400px digital image of it (so about 1:3 scale on a monitor) and the seafoam looks like white which has faded yellow.

Can someone prove?

>>3302677
>B) Pigments don't mix like light mixes, red, blue, and green will give you brown or gray
Not him, but that's how pixels/subpixels work.

>>3302689
Paint pigments are subtractive, the more you obscure the white ground with blue, green, and red pigments, the darker it gets. You can go try it right now, it won't work.

>>3302665
Schmid uses thinned turpsy washes early in his paintings.

>>3302711
Yeah, I'm still a little baffled on the subject. I've used that same technique, then proceeded on to thicker layers over top. Maybe that works because the turps layer has gesso to cling to and is then covered by regular paint layers which help to bind it all together. But, if we're talking about Maxfield Parrish using many thin transparent layers, I don't think you can use layers that are mostly turps because it won't bind to anything and may disturb the layer beneath, and I don't think you can use layers that are mostly oil because then you get sagging and tearing, and then you have to add even more oil to obey fat over lean. I think in the case of Parrish, his glazes are sort of rubbed into the surface below so that the layer is very thin and transparent. Very tiny amounts of paint on the brush, scrubbing action.

>>3302635
Please read what I'm saying.
Using black here and there is fine but people who don't know how to work without it are going to end up with bland desaturated paintings as a result of relying on it for darker colours.

>>3302721
Parrish didn't thin his paint with turps, he painted with paint straight from the tube, with the first layer being the most transparent, ultramarine blue. I have the big expensive book on Parrish that goes into detail on it, and from what I recall he mentioned it often in letters that he was using paint straight from the tube.
He was also letting each layer dry completely until moving onto the next one.

It should also be noted his paintings aren't aging well because they're covered in minute cracks, from the layers of varnish. It's an interesting technique that I want to explore, but purely for fun, not on anything i want to last a while.

>>3302677
Believe what you want. I've seen the picture in person, and we were taught about it in art history class.

>>3303180
Yes, I will believe physics and common sense.

>>3302721
As the other anon below states, MP works are known for being is a sad state these days. Apart from glazing in between scumbling & direct painting, there aren't a great deal of proven methods of longevity are there? The latter works by Turner are known to have changed even after a few years because of his attempts at pushing the media.
I see people painting with weird things now that produce great results, such as Keely Smith (pic related), but I do wonder how paintings made with oil paint, shellac and enamel will last for the big bucks they're costing.

>>3303333
I meant to add, that when I want to paint something with many layers and glazing, I use acrylics as it dries in my lifetime and is much more flexible. Pic related somewhat.

>>3302071
I have watched all of Richard Schmid's landscape painting dvds and he not once uses 14 pigments on his palette. In one video in the credits he even lists exactly the colors he uses and it's 12. I guess Richard Schmid is shit according to you.

>>3298234

How hard is to transfer from digital to traditional painting? I really want get into oils.

>>3303352
Colour and drawing skills carry over very well, the only thing you really need to pick up are the technicalities of actually mixing and laying down the paint, and dexterity for brush control (which you'll already have plenty of if you've done a lot of digital). It's not too rough.

>>3301899
t. Art fag not word fag fuck of to /lit/
no joking god I can be retarded.

>>3301902
Yep makes the paints smell good as well.

>>3302058
>>3302063
>>3302071
>>3302108
>>3302112
>>3302120
>>3302125
>>3302160
Fuck you guys are getting super tistist about this color shit, imo and this is small brain thinking all of you are over thinking this. If you want a more complicated palette and need to do all the mental calculations of mixing colors that are mixes of the primaries then knock your selves out. Five colors and Carders simple color wheel allow for mental effort to spent more effectively.

Anyways I think you are all missing (at least not talking about) a more important part of the DMP method and that is color checking and laying out your colors in value steps.

>>3303352
Never done digital but would agree with >>3303491. Having said that with the Carder method is you follow it to the letter even a unskilled painter could produce something they could have never imagined they could paint. Some of the first paintings by Carders students are pretty dam good.

>>3304650
Here is a pic of a color checker. Any one here every done a painting while using one?
INb4 shilling products, he shows you how you can make your own for pretty much free.

http://www.artgraphica.net this guy helped me alot aswell as this guy https://youtu.be/2BlpqCxxcEE

>>3299369

>it's fun to larp as an asshole
>look at me guys, I'm a brash dickhead who only pretends to lack empathy

How are you not swimming in riches and pussy yet? Oh wait I know, you give off a fake psychopathic vibe that falls apart into pure anxiety at the slightest hint of a threat from anyone who appears more put together than you.

Thanks for the link, but you need therapy. And you need to get off /pol/

Hello, anons. This is the medium recipe that the Carder Method requests:

>10 parts odorless mineral spirits (any artist grade odorless mineral spirits will do)
>5 parts stand oil or linseed stand oil (this is viscous like honey and is not the same as refined linseed oil)
>1 part refined linseed oil
>5 parts Venice turpentine
>2 parts oil of cloves

http://www.drawmixpaint.com/supplylist/international.html

I live in Brazil, where some materials of the Carder Method are nonexistent (Venice turpentine or 100% clove oil), or simply very expensive (paint Winsor & Newton). I am thinking of replacing turpentine with damar varnish and clove oil for more refined linseed oil. Do you think the results will be greatly altered?

>>3301899
I laughed

>>3307043
>>Oh wait I know, you give off a fake psychopathic vibe that falls apart into pure anxiety at the slightest hint of a threat from anyone who appears more put together than you.

Nice projection my dude.

>>but you need therapy
Nice try Shlomo, very few people are completely put together mentally (i put myself in that category) everyone should work one improving the quality of their consciousness,
I recommend a man named Tom Campbell for this,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NWqxqOCoWVg

Needing to pay for a (((therapist))) and you recommending it others shows your cucky sjw nature. We live in the information age where we have some of the best teachers at our finger tips (like Tom Campbell) and you suggest going back to the appeal to authority figures rather then taking responsibility for yourself, Fuck off and grow your balls back.

Your welcome for the link, it is a great method and really all I wanted to do was share before the autistic spergs came in.

>>3309342
It would be interesting if you made a thread showing this process. I have wanted to see this done as at some point am planning on moving out of areas where you can get Geneva paints.

>>Do you think the results will be greatly altered
I don't know the answer to your question but I would recommend if you haven't already that you join the DMP forum and ask that question there, the tism is strong there and a very helpfull forum.