/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>3195857
you might be a retard

>>3195857
discuss what? you are absolutely right

>>3195857
People insanely underestimate work.

You have to remember not only do a lot of old timey artists have a lifetime of experience, with no distractions like television, but they also worked on their pieces sometimes infinitely longer than we do.

The statue of david took years to make, if I'm not mistaken. The monalisa was painted also in years, not in hours.

That sixteen year old in >>3195859 probably spend 100 hours or more on the painting when most people would only spend 30.

>>3195857
Almost every time I look into the background of an artist who was way better than everyone else, they also worked way longer and harder than everyone else.

>>3195931
lol fuck off dude
this girl absolutely destroys you

>>3195934
This so much

>>3195858
muh political correctness
ok kid

>>3196314
>anyone who isn't a polnigger is a pc cuck

>>3195936
at copying photos, yeah. That's however not a particularly valuable skill to have. Also, the ceiling is very low. This girl will be praised as "very good for her age" until she's in her 20s and then she will be forgotten.

>>3195857
Can we get a discussion going on flair? What is flair in art?

Does a flesh accountant like Lucian Freud have flair? I suspect so.

Sometimes I read things like OP's words, and I can't help but feel envious.
The world must seem so magical and mysterious and full of wonder when you're as much of a goddamn fucking retard as they are.

>>3196542
t. all this hard work and practice will definitely make me creative .. one day ...

>>3196559
t. beginner

>>3195936

>impressed by photocopy

You're just here to shitpost dont you?

>actually caring if you're as good as the greats

>>3195857
Why is the guy on the right wearing a diaper?

>>3195936
>anyone can draw and render exactly what they see

This is why you dipshits will never make it. Knowing how to draw and paint actual facial anatomy spot on, will teach how to do it from imagination.

So unless you have a person to sit still for you a couple of hours at a time whenever you want, that's what you're supposed to do.

>>3196689
>feeling satisfied with smearings and doodles
The very fact that someone reached that point means that other people can reach it.
The fact that other people can reach it obliges them to at the very least aim for it.
If you cut off your own goals halfway because "nah, I don't ever wanna try", you're not even going to get half-assed good.
It's the duty of everyone who aims to get good at anything to set their lowest goal as the highest known possible level. If you don't aim for it, you'll never get there, and if you weren't planning on stopping practicing when you got bored, why did you decide in advance you were going to stop halfway?
If you negotiate an out for yourself like that, you're the kind of person who's going to jump on the first excuse to stop trying.
Also, drawing only for yourself or being satisfied with the mediocre is the ultimate exercise in selfishness. You blow years of your life and productivity on doing nothing for other people, but instead creating smears that even you shamelessly admit are inferior. You could work, you could help your family, you could study, but if you're not aiming to become the best you'll never even become functional.

>>3197228
>It's the duty of everyone who aims to get good at anything to set their lowest goal as the highest known possible level
this. motivating stuff

Shirahama draws everything perfect traditionally. Although it pains me that he draws capeshit everything he does is just so fucking exceptional.

>>3197282
I can't come to terms with the fact that I'll probably never reach this level, this is a 1 in a million case

>>3197283

>>3195857
You are so stupid it's no surprise you are a racist.

Just because there were only a handful of true geniuses throughout the time it doesn't mean everyone else's work should be disregarded. Besides, just because most people will never be able to pull out something as great as the relativity theory it doesn't mean they should quit doing science. Same goes to any art field.

I also recommend you stop projecting your failures onto others, this is no way of dealing with your own fears.

>>3195857
>if you are not indo-european or japanese then you have no real chance

say that to king jong ji :^)

>>3197290
>implying i said any of that
look whos projecting
>my television tells me racists are ebil bigots! it must be true!

>>3197294
Lol, racists are not evil, chump, they are cretins.

>>3197277
So tell me, what do you get out of cutting your standards?
Is it easier to make it when you've already cleared with yourself that you're going to be inferior, that nothing you do or create will ever have as much value as what someone else has done before?
And how does it feel to fail knowing that the only thing you needed to succeed was to try harder?
If you set yourself a big goal that looks to have a small hurdle, it's because everyone else decided to try and is hurtling through the air so far above you can't even see it.

>>3197300
>And how does it feel to fail knowing that the only thing you needed to succeed was to try harder?
Try harder at what? There is no method for getting better. It's all vague, and many pros don't even practice regularly for the sake of it. They just work and work is their practice.

It's not trying harder and harder that is exhausting, it's doing so while being completely blind that is.

>>3197300
hubris kills the will
it is potentially possible that through the will you might reach such heights

>>3197300
even those who you consider the highest are still imperfect forms of the gods. as you will be at your highest too. to strive closer to them is life and virtue, regardless of limit.

>>3197303
Explain to me.
How are willpower and intentionally deciding you're never going to try ahead of time not inherent opposites?
By saying "I'll never become as great as the masters/I don't care enough about art to try to reach the masters' level", you've already expressed a total lack of willpower, ambition and mental fortitude.
If your "will" can only carry you halfway, maybe you should take out life insurance and name an artist you like as the benefactor. Their willpower, their refusal to back down, their refusal to draw a line right in front of them and pretend it's the finish line, has gotten them further than your half-assed willpower has ever done.
Why do you even try? I see no "willpower" in your post, only an excuse to never actually try once you can draw lopsided lineart of anime girls.

>>3197311
who the fuck do you think you are responding to? read >>3197228 again and think before you post next time

>>3197302
>There is no method for getting better
I know what you meant to say was "there is no reliable method for getting better", but even that raises some questions.
If skill in something is not achieved through competence, hard work, perseverance and ambition, but through scraping the bottom for years and calling your every fuck-up and failure a "learning experience" even as your mother cries at home and your siblings start telling new acquaintances they're only children, can you really say it's worth learning when it rots away your will to actually try?
I see nothing but irresponsible, lazy and sometimes deceptive advice on here. The only thing accepting failure does is to teach you to do it again. If failing isn't, in your mind, the end of your life and those of everyone you know and love, you're going to cause something of that magnitude at some point.
>>3197312
I'm responding to your post.
You claimed, in response to the generally accepted fact "you have to try to get somewhere, and if you start making excuses to yourself then down you go", that setting a high goal is "hubris" and that, for some reason, failing intentionally and conditioning yourself to worship failure as inspiration is somehow not going to lead you to fail more.
I replied.

>>3197314
once again, re-read the post your are so upset about

>>3197314
There's no objectivity in art. You think your figures are stiff and people are like "oh be mindful of that line of action!" and then you look at it and you see the same 4-5 poses that are meant to show how important the line of action is, but at the same time there are hundreds of figures that don't have any obvious line of action going on. It's frustrating because the internet has amplified all the confirmation bias and made what simple basic instructions misguiding.
I won't even mention the fact that artists that are really, really good are a ridiculously tiny percentage, and even in the top 1% many are gimmicks who only mastered the workflow to do one specific thing.

This isn't bad but when it comes to art instruction everyone seems to ignore this reality and tries to pass the same old fundamentals as the ultimate end when there's just so much more to be learned. You can know all the anatomy you want but if your linework is garbage you'll never draw anything pleasing to the eye. How do I learn where to stop the hatching? How do I learn how to simplify the hands or feet if I'm drawing them small? There are hundreds, thousands of little things that add up and getting to it by trial and error is simply crazy. It's like learning mathematics by trial and error. You NEED a teacher, you NEED a work method.

>>3197454
I'm so fucking tired of hearing "fundies" like knowing about the really basic construction stuff like the proportions of the head can help me when I'm trying to draw something stylized or I'm trying to draw expressive eyes instead of those dead fish eyes every single course has.

When you look at instructional material they teach you shit that's completely different from what the teacher actually does. E.g. how to draw the head, they draw the old same 3/4 angle Loomis head with no expression whatsoever. Who gives a shit about that? I want you to teach me how to draw expressive faces, give me tips on how to make them look sharp, not yet another round down on the very basics. Any music course or anything will teach you about the more advanced shit at some point and it's actual, tangible stuff you can learn. But in art there's nothing like that. It's all "remembe them fundies boy!" while the teacher pockets your 50€ and keeps drawing amazing shit that you still have no idea how to approach.

I'm so tired of just aimlessly being on this path of "learning", I'm learning nothing, I'm just bashing my head against a wall and wasting time. I'm sure someone will say "oh just push through it, you're going to break out of it" which is more bullshit. Being frustrated because you're not learning is something that shouldn't happen. Hell the only frustration should be that of having yet so many tangible, actual concepts to learn ahead of you, but you can't because you're still learning the easier stuff. In art? Oh no it's just the fundies or "just draw".

>>3197302
>There is no method for getting better

I’m on board with an artist’s goal being ‘as good as they need for their vision’ rather than ‘striving for ultimate true mastery’, but what you’ve said here is blatantly wrong.

>>3197526
Then please point me at it. At least online, every single course will only teach you the fundamentals you've already been through a million times and that's it. There is no real intensive course that teaches you, say, to draw characters for comics which is FAR more than just knowing anatomy and telling someone to fuck off and practice life drawing. How do you gather reference and stay on model, how do you face difficult poses, how do you avoid pitfalls with expressions or camera angles, and so on. Nobody out there teaches you anything but a reiteration of the very basics you need to get started and it's simply not enough. All you're left with is trial and error which for something as ridiculously complex as art is simply fucking crazy. We could spend a week discussing what's the most economical way to describe the notch of the elbow with line and we'd probably both be wrong in the end.

>>3197530
Your problem is that you don't know the fundamentals.
End of story you dumb cunt.

>>3197546
Post your work, I'm 100% sure you're a /beg/ other than being a parrot and a crab

>>3197551
So you go out there, and you find all the information you can on how to draw, and you're frustrated because you can't draw and everyone just says the same information.
The basic fundamentals.
They seem so obvious, so of course you know them.
Yet, you can't draw.
Yet, it's what everyone says is necessary to draw.

How many dozens or hundreds of times do you think another bloody idiot comes along here thinking that they know the fundamentals, when they haven't the foggiest notion of how to apply them in any way? You have folks here, pointing you back into the direction of learning the goddamn basics and yet you're still harping on about "oh nobody teaches how to do [X], they only teach [THE THING THAT FUCKING ALLOWS YOU TO DO X OR ANY GODDAMN OTHER THING IN ART]".

>>3197551
He's not wrong.

Fundamentals is the basis of everything. If /ic/ gets ANYTHING right, it's the constant emphasis on fundamentals.

>>3197530
>Then please point me at it

It's grinding. Sorry, I know that's not what you wanted to hear.

>At least online, every single course will only teach you the fundamentals you've already been through a million times

I know for a fact that you have neither done every single course, nor grinded fundamentals a million times.

>How do you gather reference

Google. Go outside with your iPhone and take pictures.

>and stay on model

Look at the model sheet. Look at the drawing. Fix what's wrong. If you can't stay on model, it's because you're not good at drawing.

>how do you face difficult poses

Reference and construction. These are fundamentals.

>how do you avoid pitfalls with expressions or camera angles

Camera angles? That's composition and perspective. Those are fundamentals. Expressions? Construction, like everything else. Use the face God packaged you with to make some expressions, and watch how the shapes are different when you smile as opposed to frown or yell or cry or whatever.

>Nobody out there teaches you anything but a reiteration of the very basics you need to get started

Every problem you proposed is a problem covered by the basics. If you had the basics down, you'd know that.

>All you're left with is trial and error

It stops being trial and error when your observational skills and sense of form are sharpened.

>which for something as ridiculously complex as art is simply fucking crazy

Art isn't that complex.

>We could spend a week discussing what's the most economical way to describe the notch of the elbow with line and we'd probably both be wrong in the end

No, we couldn't, because that's a dumb waste of everyone's time.

>>3197575
>>3197568
>Fundamentals is the basis of everything
I'm not dissing fundamentals, I'm saying that there's something other than grinding fundamentals, art is full of nuance and it's impossible to get to every bit of knowledge by trial and error.

If I draw the same photo 10 times and fuck up the nose 10 times, I'll still have no fucking clue on why I fucked up the nose 10 times unless someone tells me I've made a wrong line here and there and I should describe the curve like this and that. You need specific directions or the time investment becomes ridiculous when your chances at becoming really great are already tiny.

>>3197581
Thanks for the patronizing pile of worthless pseudoadvice. Still waiting to see your work. See the post above.

>>3197592
>art is full of nuance and it's impossible to get to every bit of knowledge by trial and error.
Fundamentals =/= Trial and Error

You only think this dumb shit that you do because you have no concept of how fundamentals are applied in a drawing.
A nose is just a series of planes like anything else in the goddamn world, Christ.

>>3197575
this
You will always need to work on your fundamentals. It's the same as every other skill.
Professional musicians still practice scales, top tennis players still practice their forehand, and the most successful writers still keep the three-act structure in mind.

No one is going to hand hold you through art. You have to decide for yourself what makes art good and judge your art based on that. I find that learning art is more of a spiritual journey once you start to go beyond the fundamentals.

>>3197592
>I'm saying that there's something other than grinding fundamentals

Your examples of "other than fundamentals" were fundamentals.

>If I draw the same photo 10 times and fuck up the nose 10 times, I'll still have no fucking clue on why I fucked up the nose 10 times

This is a problem absolute beginners have. This is a problem that having a teacher helps with. Seeing is a fundamental - you should be able to look at your drawing, compare it to the subject and see what you screwed up.

>the time investment becomes ridiculous when your chances at becoming really great are already tiny

If you don't like drawing enough to invest the time, don't do it.

>>3197597
>Professional musicians still practice scales
Yes but you don't get great at playing music by just grinding scales. This is what I'm trying to get across but people are too triggered to pay attention because they perceive me as saying fundamentals are useless.

>>3197496
The fundamentals are important. But yes, I agree that just using that as a roundabout way of saying "git gud" is rather annoying.
For me the frustration comes from knowing that there's something to learn, but not knowing what exactly it is. Maybe my figure drawings are weak, but I won't know how to improve them when I don't know what I'm doing wrong. Sure I can know THAT something is wrong, but it'll be hard to place.
The worst thing is that with forums like this, you can't really show people your process, and get instruction on just how to draw better in general. It's entirely feasible that everything wrong with your drawings is your method. Maybe your perspective is off because you draw with your head on the table. You can't know these things without some kind of guidance.

>>3197618
Mate, grinding the fundamentals is only fundamental. It's like you aren't getting the point of them.
You USE the fundamentals to your ADVANTAGE while what drawing you WANT to draw.
Nobody is saying that purely studying fundamentals with no exploration whatsoever is the way to get good. You need to understand that art is part of you as much as it is something you can learn.
Draw more. Paint more. Whatever. But keep the fundamentals in mind and that will help you do what you want better. It will make it easier for you to craft that picture you have in your mind, that you want so much to bring into reality and share with the world.
The fundies aren't the be all end all. They're just the fundies. Only you can make the art you want to see. So put in your due diligence. Learn the fundies. Experiment with them. Make them your own. Grow as an artist. Never stop learning.

>>3197660
But my whole point is that without specific guidace one might end up having no idea how to keep learning.

Art is not a binary achievement where you either draw something well or you don't. There's a whole slew of things that differentiate excellent work from passable work, shitty or good work. For the most part of this year I've been stuck with passable work, I've done courses but as I said, they reiterate on the basic loomis shit and I failed to find them helpful. I've had no problem using the fundamentals as a tool so far so it's not a situation where I don't have the knowledge or I don't have a working method to solve a problem. It's just the improvement and growth that aren't there and I feel like grinding fundamentals is getting me absolutely nowhere because there's something else missing.

Actually I might even dare say that I've gotten worse, I like my older drawings better.

>>3197670
>without specific guidace one might end up having no idea how to keep learning

If you are absolutely, completely, 100% incapable of recognizing the problems with your work, consider plunking down the bux for something like CGMA or Watts Atelier. You need a second pair of eyes? Get the second pair of eyes.

You could get that second pair of eyes for free right here if you posted your work, but we would call you a fag while we explained it.

>>3197674
>You could get that second pair of eyes for free right here if you posted your work
Every time I did that I got nothing meaningful out of it, so I'll pass.

>>3197694
You deserve everything that you've received. Thanks for wasting everyone else's time.

>>3197694
All right, saving your money for professional criticism it is.

This is your last chance to bone up on fundies before an actual master tells you, without calling you a fag, that you need to draw more boxes.

>>3197228
Great comment! This place isn't doomed, after all...

/ic/ is always right.

>>3197694
You seem rather new to 4chan, but more importantly your ego is too fragile.
If you do not have the patience to dig through the shit here then at least join an art forum or community and ask for help there. Crying on 4chan and trying to argue about fundies and other shits is pretty pointless and you know deep down you're just trying to find excuses.

You don't have to attach your ego to your current drawings, so let it out. Then in a few years when you're good just start a blog from scratch and forget about the bad drawings from the past.

>>3197660 said it all.

>>3197228
I really don't want to agree with the last two lines but thinking about it, if you view drawing as a tool to satisfy your own ends its very unlikely you're going to enjoy it well enough to even become mediocre.

>>3197454
So who are these really, really good and ridiculously tiny percentage? Surely not the old masters.

>>3195857

>>3199788
People like Cory Loftis

>>3195857
I can tolerate your coldness, in a way I

but you have to see why having your opinion isn't justified, because the connotation you're spinning makes it sound like the 'flairless' should put down the brush. A passion for art in society reflects the greatness an individual can achieve, da vinci didn't paint living in Madagascar with primitive tools. A master often reflects the passion in people and the highest quality works would be less significant and appealing if people didn't see themselves painting, as they originally wanted just to see a painting.

Also, paint or drawings immerse a person in the culture of art, history etc. Where they can branch out in a modern world and find passions they had in which they had flair where they didn't, like finding glass blowing after trying to do oil landscape paintings without the same intensity.

The teaching of any art is essentially art history, for any form of true art can be made on the spot with the least and never be a replication.

>>3203729
notice that i gave the expected solution as generating the attribute through force of will. it can be done

Jesus fuck some of you make this so complicated quit your fuckinng whining and pick up the pencil and fucking draw

“Waaaah waaaaaah I tried! I tried and it’s not working!!”

Yeah this shit takes time something a lot of people aren’t used to in this adhd 21st century, drawing takes massive repition and you may not “see” progress but that because in this field progress is slow. Also fuck off if you aren’t drawing at least one hour a day I don’t want to hear bullsht from fucktards who aren’t spending time on what they want to accomplish.

As for the greats? If you want to be the best good for you, sacrifice your family, your free time, even your job, find a job like security where you have massive down time, take the hit shifts and sacrifice daytime living to get even more hours to work. You want to be the very best? Give your entire life to art until the day your tool of choice falls from your hand and you breath your last breath.

As for everyone else find a niche and style that speaks to you and improve on it and make it your own.

>>3203748
>Yeah this shit takes time
5 years in I'm starting to get a little bit frustrated. I completely stopped progressing. I've hit a wall and it's brutal. What the fuck can I do. I've tried taking courses, studying more, doing a project, taking a break, none of this shit works I'm still a bad artist.

>>3197283
>I'll probably never
Definitely never if you dont work at it