/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

Hampton over Loomis

use the bucket crabs as the op image

>>3173013

while im fine with posting guides in the sticky i think we need to stop implying there are rules to being an artist or how to git gud. the focus here should clearly be critique of personal artwork, also i am fine with slightly off topic threads regarding other professional artists.

https://www.handprint.com/HP/WCL/tech10.html for perspective
That is all

iris hopp, creator of the original beginner's guide, is updating the guide. Nosebro is also working on a guide but its far from finished.
some things to include in the new sticky:

>Guide to fundamentals (Iris' works fine, at least for now)
>IC etiquette
dont create threads just for yourself -(these arent rules, just advice-) don't dox other users, if you upload, prepare to be assblasted because complaining/pleading will not prevent this from happening, try to make sure uploaded images are the right side up, etc

The beginner's thread has an alternative sticky, all compiled and ready for use. it's a start

>>3172736
a lot of the other threads (books, alt style, draw, QA) have resources that are always listed in the opening post.

>>3173020
as funny as this is, i think the current image works really well. if it were to be changed i'd like to see it changed to another painting of a guy reading a newspaper.

>>3173028
etiquette ideas
>if you're gonna say its shit, explain how
>the post decay rate is slow, dont feel the need to spam

the sticky image should be related to the merc.wip. we have a myriad of different homemade versions already and its the closest thing to board culture we have.

maybe a christian bale dubs version where his assault riffle/finger is pointing towards the rules?

>if you're new and want to introduce yourself, please consider using one of the existing threads instead of creating a new one
>the crab that pulls the other crabs down is the crab who ensures that nobody leaves the bucket

>>3173013
List all the major generals so that newcomers will know what thread to post in for their desired interest. Remind them to CTRL+F the name in the catalog. I tried doing that for the Q&A thread but it's a hassle to copy/paste the new links.

Main Generals

General Draw Thread
Artbook Thread (Resources)
Beginner Thread
Alt Style/Anime thread
Porn Thread
Animation Thread
Drawing Everyday Thread
Sketchbook Thread
--------
Misc.
Self-Promotion Thread (post your blog)
Questions & Answers Thread (ask your questions)
Style Meme Thread

>>3173013
List all the major generals so that newcomers will know what thread to post in for their desired interest. Remind them to CTRL+F the name in the catalog.

Main Generals

General Draw Thread
Artbook Thread (Resources)
Beginner Thread
Alternative Art/ Stylization General
Porn Thread
Animation Thread
Last Artist Standing/Drawing Today
Sketchbook Thread
--------
Misc.
Self-Promotion Thread (post your blog)
Questions & Answers Thread (ask your questions)
Style Meme Thread

also i believe our board chan/mascot should be switched to something FAR more appropriate like pic related

>>3173060
Only problem is that generals usually come and go, the list would be outdated soon enough. I think 'please check the catalog for appropriate generals before posting' might be more suitable

>>3173032
This http://sys.4chan.org/derefer?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs.google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1uwaXKU7ev6Tw_or__o8ARpUb6r2rCZYJGqwSFV9AD98%2Fedit%23bookmark%3Did.15jx3pyuimvj

It's miles better and more informative than the original one.

>>3173032
This https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uwaXKU7ev6Tw_or__o8ARpUb6r2rCZYJGqwSFV9AD98/edit#bookmark=id.15jx3pyuimvj

It's miles better and more informative than the original one

>>3173068
If you plan on including this, please include it as an "alternative" to Iris' sticky or a second step of some sort. It would be a shame to replace the beginner's guide with this.

>>3173028
>>3173042
Etique suggestion for the sticky: the board name is artwork/critique which is silly considering most of the users don't know how to give proper critisism.

Give some guidelines. Atleast include that proper criticism is telling what's good and what's bad in the piece. It takes a few more seconds to come up with and type something positive and encouraging to other people.

>something positive and encouraging to other people
I get it's opposite of the general chan culture but /ic/ is already different in that we're posting our work and trying to improve. I'm not saying critique guidelines should be enforced or critisism should be sugarcoated. Just give some guidelines anons can refer to if they want to.

>>3173072
>It would be a shame to replace the beginner's guide with this.
I don't think so. Iris' sticky has some good ideas but is rather barebones and doesn't include most of the good books artbook thread has been starting to suggest over the years. Big Sticky could completely replace it.

>>3173060
generals are a bad idea and i feel bogged down by them. maybe a porn thread as a containment zone. also can we please stop pretending art books are so important?

>>3173083
generals promote thread community which is fine but isn't exclusively what 4chan is about. this and all boards have a point outside of individual threads. we're a community so lets act like it.

>>3173082
i disagree. iris' sticky, while it could use more material (it is also about to be updated), is meant to teach only the fundies and does a pretty good job at that. the big sticky is outright incomplete in some parts, disorganized, and doesn't cover all of the fundies sufficiently. i'm sure someday it'll be a fine replacement but in it's current state, if it's to be included in the sticky, it must not replace iris' guide until it is finished.

>>3173088
>>3173082
Perhaps we should have a poll to see which sticky is preferred

>>3173090
How about getting the best of them both and making a new one as many people as possible can agree with?

>>3173072
>>3173090
If both stickies are included then their relations should be made clear to not confuse newcomers.

>>3173092
instead of making a new one it'd be better to just fix up the Big Sticky, as much effort as that would be. My advice would to, for now, include the original Beginner's Guide and work on the big sticky. If you're gonna put the big sticky up there, instead of replacing the beginner's guide, name it the "alt guide" or something so that beginners are still directed to the right place.

>>3173090
i think we should have one simple sticky that tells you what /ic/ is all about. you don't want a long and confusing one filled with pointless information about the generals, newfags don't like to read after all and its important they know what they're doing over what club they can join.

>>3173105
i think we should have one link for the fundamentals (beginner's guide) and one for /ic/ etiquette (a bit like the rules that we have now) like you said, shorter is better.
a general part isn't necessary, because like the other anon said generals come and go out of fashion.

Vote here if you want or do not want the BIG STICKY on the pinned sticky. Please note the BIG STICKY is always maintained by an offshore discord and is updated by the community already.

Also MOD the tripfag >>3173105 is a troll. But you can look through his history and see that anyway.

VOTE HERE: http://www.strawpoll.me/14155239

>>3173121
oh I almost forgot this is the link to the community sticky

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uwaXKU7ev6Tw_or__o8ARpUb6r2rCZYJGqwSFV9AD98/edit#bookmark=id.15jx3pyuimvj

The fuck we need a sticky for? This board is no longer about teaching the basics of art. Now its mostly crab bucketing every single people who posted their art and memeing popular artists so they got haters.
At this point the sticky should be a guide about how to shitpost artists, with a full guide on what memes to use to better your shitposting.

/ic/ is fucking dead. Nobody likes art anymore.

>>3173129
>doesn't like the state of /ic/
>mod gives a chance to make a change to /ic/
>would rather just complain

You are what's wrong with /ic/.

I still believe /ic/ can come together and help each other to the gonna make it land. We're all in this together, best of luck to you all and may a new sticky be born.

>>3173135
>mod gives a chance to make a change to /ic/
theres literally no mods on /ic/ dumbass. you can shitpost an entire thread with your sperging on one artist and nobody cares.
This board should be called /b/ but for drawfagging.
Force move all the board drawthreads here. At least it's useful for something that way.

Thank you for doing this blessed mod

>>3173142
i think the mods rarely intervene because they want us to govern ourselves.

>>3173153
And that makes this board literally no better than /b/.
Change the title, /ic/ - welcome fellow crustaceans.

>>3173166
>the board is ruined forever there’s no hope at all nothing can be fixed we can’t do anything about it even though there’s literally a mod right here trying to help us adjust our foundation

No, John. You are the crabs.

>>3173065
Please list the generals anyway so they know what to look for and have a good idea of all the generals that usually appear. (Coming from a new comer who was confused about all the general)
Also please add the pixel general to that link.
Also please add Nosebros guide

>>3173188
what generals appear changes from time to time. it's not worth adding those as they will cement themes in /ic/ when /ic/ should be more free than that.
If you want a pixel general, start one and work hard at it.

>>3173105
Im a newfag (joined this week ) and I wish the option to read about all the general to get a good idea of this board was availiable. This board just seemed so damned confusing.

>>3173177
>asking mods to moderate more
how about ban on sight the retards that tell artists who post their work to go to /beg/?
no of course not, what a fucking useless thread.

>>3173013
I think the stickies should reorganized to be a little more focused and digestible. Something like:

1. /ic/ Community (How to use it):
>Culture, etiquette, search the catalog for generals, etc.
2. Physical Drawing Techniques (Ways to draw and paint):
>Drawing from the shoulder, long strokes instead of chicken scratch, ghosting lines, slowing down, drawing with your peripheral vision, using construction, making drafts and rough under drawings, etc.
3. Ways to Approach Studying Art (Ways to improve):
>Avoiding symbol drawing, drawing from life/art/reference, avoid mindlessly copying/tracing/grid drawing, observation techniques, drawing a subject more than once, building a visual library, balancing studying and application, dynamic sketching exercises, etc.
4a. Mindset (Ways to avoid frustration):
>Giving/taking critiques, perfectionism, grinding, mental health, time management, short term goals, self-worth from art, failure, etc.
4b. Artistic End Goals (Staying on track):
>Think about what kind of art you want to make, find artist who make that kind of work, attempt drawing their works often instead of waiting until you’re good enough, and improve your shortcomings with the fundamentals
5a. Primary Fundamentals:
>Observation, Perspective, Light/values, Human proportions + anatomy, etc.
5b. Secondary fundamentals:
>Composition, Color, Gesture, Design, etc.
5c. Recommend resources for each fundamental and other skills/topics
6+. Tools, other resources, business, and everything else would go farther down

Obviously, these wouldn't be strict rules but it would make it clear what sections to direct people to.

>>3173196
Its only ever the same bunch of generals though.

>>3173166
Maybe we shouldnt call ourselves that. Its like a self fufilling prophecy. As fucking funny as the crab joke it, its depressing.

>>3173013
Whats the source of this image?

>>3173219

I think it's from some con in 2014

>>3173013

imo /ic/ shouldnt be about teaching people how to draw but rather a place for those who already know to discuss the medium and experience.

>>3173013
Hey Mod, I wouldn't mind if this board was a LITTLE bit more moderated. People who are clearly purposefully cancerous maybe should get a warning, people who create a thread just to say "rate this drawing" and it's a toddler drawing below even /beg/ standards should have their threads deleted and get a warning also.

Isn't it in the rules not to crab? Not saying to ban anything negative, but at least warn people who are clearly not helpful and just intend to insult others.

>>3173244
It's not like it's a fucking kiddy school right now, anyone /beg/ that posts outside of /beg/ is usually flamed or ignored.

Also, there is no way to define a clear line between those who "can't draw" and those who "can draw", it's an infinite gradient. Who's gonna judge what the bar is? There's always people better than you and there's always beginners.

>>3173244
/ic/ is for 4chan users with an interest in drawing. I say this because starting a post with "imo" clearly outs you as being from somewhere else, and you should go back.

>>3173254

>anyone /beg/ that posts outside of /beg/ is usually flamed or ignored.

thats the point there shouldnt be posters to flame and ignore in the first place

>Also, there is no way to define a clear line between those who "can't draw" and those who "can draw", it's an infinite gradient. Who's gonna judge what the bar is? There's always people better than you and there's always beginners.

not what i said at all. i meant something like this

>how do i crosshatch

bad thread

>lets talk about crosshatching, ill share my work and that of professional artist whose crosshatching style inspire me.

good thread

>>3173267
Eh, do you feel you already know at least the basics of every style and medium you would ever use? If tomorrow you started acrilyc painting for the first time wouldn't you like it to have a community that can possibly help you or give you insight as they progress themselves?

You sound a bit snobbish desu.

>i don't wanna help others so no one should help anyone else so i don't feel selfish

I do agree that

>how do I crosshatch

Is an example of a bad thread, cause that could simply go to the QTDDTOT or /beg/ or alt thread. No need to exterminate learning from the only board in this site that actually helps us learn.

>>3173258

>/ic/ is for 4chan users with an interest in drawing.

wrong. /ic/ is about artwork and critique. there's users with an interest in drawing that run their mouth without knowing what they're saying, and users with actual experience with the craft. /ic/ is for the latter.

i personally like the current level of moderation we get. with distance mods its up to everyone here as a collective to decide the fate and cultre of IC. save a couple
of extreme examples most bad threads/posts are better left to just die on their own, be it by death by sperging out crab or post decay.
there's two things that make IC a unique board.

>anonymity

>lack of mod interference

i like it this way. removing either of these things just brings IC one step closer to being just another art community.

>>3173275

>If tomorrow you started acrilyc painting for the first time wouldn't you like it to have a community that can possibly help you or give you insight as they progress themselves?

i would learn it on my own then share my experience in /ic/

>i don't wanna help others so no one should help anyone else so i don't feel selfish

this thread is about discussing our perspective of what the sticky should be. since the sticky is supposed to summarize the board im giving my perspective on the matter. im dont get to decide what /ic/ is or becomes. only sharing my 2 cents which is what the OP asked for. fell free to share your vision for /ic/ and let the mods decide.

>>3173284
Chill, I'm not trying to censor you, just giving my opinion on the matter, that is, that I disagree with yours. The more people that give their opinion, the better an idea will the mods have of what the community likes and dislikes about this board. There isn't exactly a "feedback" option on 4chan and this is a rare opportunity in which we know the mods are actually reading the shit we say, regardless of if they a fuck about it or not.

>>3173013
holy shit a mod doing something on /ic/, the sky's falling

best changes you could make to the sticky

>/ic/ etiquette link
>leave the beginner guide
>add the big sticky link

How about the mods not remove any threads related to drawing? Doesnt even matter if its a request or fanart general thread. At least we have a purpose here rather than shitposting each other to stop drawing.

>>3173309
Tbh I don't think I've ever seen a thread deleted except for a reference thread that got full of porn.

>>3173309
Keep requests out of /ic/, as written in the rules.
Because having the site flooded by faggots that wants tattoo designs or other free shit could legit ruin the board.

cgl are bitter seagulls. maybe we should be crabs.

Please somebody add these books in this order to the list.

>>3173013
>Mod
You better to listen what /ic/ REALLY needs:
>https://boards.fireden.net/ic/thread/2684829/
This place is already nothing but shitposting central with thousand /pol/ and bland torrent requests threads. Where is fuckin IDs?

there should be artist feature with best of ic gallery

Anyone that recommends books without posting their work shouldn't be taken seriously. Especially when they suggest reading advanced perspective or books on composition before reading a book on observational drawing.

Just steal this document verbatim and trim some of the fat.

8chDOTnet/loomis/hubDOThtml

>>3173406
good idea

>>3173406
Seconding this.

>>3173406
Asking way too much. Plus people would only tear the featured pics apart and constantly whinge about it

>>3173406
who came to /ic/ shit, and left good? or a lot better

>>3173406
There is a little problem, anon. Actually big problem.
>more exposure for shitposting
>vendettas
>chat threads
>etc

Anyone that recommends books without posting their work shouldn't be taken seriously. Especially when they suggest reading books on advanced perspective or books on complex composition before reading a book on observational drawing.

My recommendation is just steal stuff from the document in pic related verbatim while trimming some of the fat (too much Matt Kohr ffs).

>>3173466
delete this
don't show this board to /ic/

>>3173230
Thanks bro

>>3173474
Why not?

>muh sekrit club

Let's be real, no one's going to use that dead board or site anyway, we might as well take whatever valuables its corpse leaves behind.

>>3173474
Too late. Whats wrong with that board anyway?
>>3173466
Thanks for sharing. It looks pretty damn useful. But whats wrong with Matt Kohr?

>>3173028
etiquette is useless as people will ignore it anyway. Common sense won't be attributed by pieces of texts.

We should have a portion on the sticky that deals with depression and emotional problems. I try to go around the board telling people that their art problems aren't actually art problems, but some deeper issues they need to work out. I end up repeating the same shit over and over again.

Becoming a good artist is straightforward, most of the problems we face as artists aren't about art at all, but about our lives, our selves, and the self defeating worldview. We need a way to deal with this asap.

>>3173518
>I try to go around the board telling people that their art problems aren't actually art problems, but some deeper issues they need to work out.
Too soon, man. Too soon.

>>3173497
>But whats wrong with Matt Kohr?

Nothing really, but he lists like 4 of his videos in a row. I suppose they are pretty short though-and topical.

>>3173506
>etiquette is useless as people will ignore it anyway
Not everyone.
>Common sense won't be attributed by pieces of texts
What's common sense to you isn't for somebody else. It's better that everyone's on the same page even if they choose to ignore it.

>>3173518
I'm with you there, I'd also say it's a healthy relationship with art in addition to with yourself that matters too. Used to see nothing but bad memories when I get down or even think about drawing. Not much anymore fortunately

>>3173013
post some old masters, and 19th century realist paintings, as something to strive for. Paintings, or drawings, anons can look at and recognize the skill put into them. Paintings anons can study.

Or post names of good artists worth looking at and studying from

>>3173518
I agree with this. I think a /ganbatte/ general to both contain AND MANAGE despair would be a good idea, too. Everyone has sad times when they don't feel like they're gonna make it, and it's okay to express that. But the way it happens now - redundant despair threads cluttering the board with no remedies for combating that despair - is just a mess.

>>3173518
My first thought is that would be unfitting, but at the same time I 100% agree.
Maybe you could write up some of that portion and present it?

>>3173039
We have choices, but ofc there's no guarantee that it will please the majority. I guess we could make a pool but smartasses would cheat. The current pic is iconic by now and maybe it would be best to keep it as is.

Come to think of it, the Sticky as it is is already kinda does its job, it should just:
> mention the alternative Sticky.
> give basic advices like "Check the catalog to avoid making a duplicate thread"
> explain more clearly what Artwork/Critique is for.
That last one, because we have regularly people coming here for Critique about their poetry or Youtube vidya. Should make it more clear for newcomers that it's critique about visual art.
If you check other boards' sticky, it's often very brief and clear. Let the community create and update the rest through perpetual copypasta in the Generals. That's what board culture is for.

>>3173578

Yeah a lot of people here, or online in general, don't have a healthy relationship with art let alone themselves. The issues run deeper. I used to struggle with bad memories when drawing too.

>>3173587
>>3173590

here's some stuff I collected but it's far from the whole list: https://wisdom-of-ic.tumblr.com

I can totally help write up that portion. I think it's important and emotional problems should be taken seriously. I don't know if this is bullshit, but one of my friends said that someone on this board died or something. I'd be totally willing to talk to anyone who needs to be dragged out of the abyss too.

>>3173518
Thanks for derailing the thread heh

The thing in >>3173466 has some relevant videos I think: "Motivation and Mindset". I was just complaining about there being too many of them but considering you're now being bombarded with (You)s maybe I underestimated the feels associated with drawing.

The sticky should be replaced with drawabox link.

Lets face it the only thing you need to do is drawabox and then move on to Peter Hans book and then Scott Robertson.

I had FZD student admit that Scott Robertson is what they teach at school.

>>3173399
hey mods, as someone who tries to earnestly help people around here when i can (i know my last few posts are just depression/anxiety venting, forgive me, i'm on new meds), may i make a well intentioned argument against IDs?

the main problem with /ic/ (slightly related to the overflow of people from /pol/ and their desire to treat the entire site like /pol/) is that you can't truly post your work anonymously. the way one draws is much like a fingerprint, even when they switch styles you can usually identify an artist by certain stylistic calling cards that they can't easily mask. this one sided anonymity is the linch pin of the vast majority of the toxicity of this board. and i know this makes IDs sound amazing but paradoxically it just extends the one sided anonymity problem. anyone attempted to use the board for it's intended function of earnestly asking for and providing critique would now have a forced trip while trolls could just proxy hop around as they please. continuing as they've always done, only now it's easier to track their targets.

>>3173406
the absolute last thing you should want for this board is for it to be easier to find out who posts here

>>3173518
oddly enough placing my self worth in my work has caused me to improve a lot and also fucking fast because my brain is hooked on how it makes people who don't know me yet like me and people who already know me like me more. it was like when i got an eating disorder in high school and went from being an ostracized fat kid everyone picked on to being a (relatively) traditionally attractive person. suddenly everyone was so nice to me. it felt really bad knowing the only actual thing that changed about me was my weight but they were kind now. neither are healthy in the slightest and have definitely fucked up my self worth but as long as i can somehow keep managing to have artists i look up to tell me they think my work's good my brain thinks it's worth it.

>>3173541
Ok, thanks.
Do you know if 8chn threads are ever deleted btw? Also somehow im not able to post there cuz of some error

>>3173659
>you can't truly post your work anonymously

I'm not convinced by the argument for IDs either, but what you've said here just isn't true.

>>3173633
Is that seriously all i need as a /beg/? Where to go after that?

>>3173083
if we didn't have generals, we'd just have a bunch of idiots all making their own threads to use as their personal blog (which i still think should be bannable)

>>3173669
i mean unless they're an absolute beginner who's still struggling with boxes or so skilled they can flip their entire styleset just like that you can almost always pick out any consistent poster by the stylistic minutiae of their work

>>3173659
>while trolls could just proxy hop around as they please.

Not that guy, but trolls would troll anyway. They could even make their own threads and then switch proxies to reply but I think the benefits of IDs would outweigh that since most wouldn't bother and those who really need help/give good advice would be easily identifiable. Especially good for all these generals we have.

>>3173013
Can the person who paints the best on /ic/ do the updating?

>>3173663
8gag had a really serious error a couple months ago, if you're trying to post in an older thread I would just forget about it and try making your own.

>>3173659
Can't we have per-thread ID? This way we keep Anonymity but without the ability to samefag or shitpost easily : it would get us rid of the numerous fake Nosebro for example.

>>3173197
Generals are considered to be a subversion of 4chan culture

>>3173684
im not saying we disregard generals all together, i just don't think we should rely on them as heavily as some people have suggested.

>>3173698
All IDs are thread only

>>3173456
tehmeh

>>3173707
In spite of, not because of.

>>3173455
if you don't know how to defend yourself against other artists, you deserve it.

>>3173691

I like to give anonymous critique without having to be tied back to my work when I post. That just makes for more shitposting.

While I fully support anons like >>3173026 (that is a great site) the reality of /ic/'s drawing thread clearly shows a lack of observation, patience, line work, and value control.

The sticky has to emphasize paths such as: Keys To Drawing/Drawing On The Right Side of The Brain, Bargue Course, and doing master copies to a near-completed degree.

Leave Hampton/Loomis, perspective and other subjects tucked far underneath. There is no point to trying to construct a head and all it's features and render it accurately when you cannot draw and render the object in front of you to a good degree.

>>3173691
>>3173698
maybe, it's really up to us as a community to make the argument to the mods and if they think it's worth it. i'm not personally for it cause i'm always worried simple solutions are monkey paws in disguise and that it's important to consider the possible ramifications of such a drastic change to the board.

>>3173721
you probably don't want a flood of anons with one big collective chip on their shoulder to come and do their best to shit where you eat tho

>>3173746
>the reality of /ic/'s drawing thread clearly shows a lack of observation, patience, line work, and value control.

>The sticky has to emphasize paths such as: Keys To Drawing
THIS THIS THIS THIS THIS

>>3173399
>>3173749
Let's see it the other way: what are the boards with ID and how does that impact them?
> /bant/ /pol/ /biz/ /qst/ /soc/
I can't really tell as I don't post on those. I'm annoyed by the shitposters trying to derail good threads, and by the numerous shit threads, but how would ID do a thing? Also as some Generals can stay up for a month, it opens the door to retards harassing a single poster because he dared to disagree with them.

Concerning the Sticky, let's post the various Stickies of other boards to compare. I certainly don't want a sticky looking like /3/. It's very complete but the same could be hold on another document, like it's currently the case on /ic/. Let's keep it clean, as we expect newcomers to read it.

>>3173746
Keys to Drawing is all you need to learn to draw lines 1:1. I wouldn't hide Loomis or Hampton. Hampton says you don't have to worry about rendering and values when learning figure drawing basics. I get that people appreciate rendering here but for people who aim to draw from imagination line drawing is better to learn first.

>>3173801
>Hampton says you don't have to worry about rendering and values when learning figure drawing basics

That's partly because Hampton is a sculptor first and foremost. His book reflects this very strongly.

>>3173829
That doesn't make his methods less valid.

>>3173837
>That doesn't make his methods less valid.

That is something we'd have to take up elsewhere, but suffice to say his opinions that are rooted in sculpture. Sculptors have over time gained a reputation for being terrible at drawing but that's outside of the scope of this thread and I don't know if it reflects on him or not.

If you want to draw, knowing how to bring form out of a flat paper surface, and how to separate your lights from your darks and control your edges is essential. It predicates everything you do, whether it be figure drawing or otherwise.

Learn observation first. Proportions, values, edge hardness. Leave full-figure construction for another time.

>>3173406

Kind of like this idea, but I think the attraction of /ic/ is the lack of accountability with posts. You add that by having a feature like this.

>>3173518

Was going to recommend something like this. Perhaps a section dedicated to the proper mentality an artist should have, as well as soft skills.

>>3173846
>Sculptors have over time gained a reputation for being terrible at drawing

A reputation to who? What is this based on?

>>3173797
not a board sticky per se, but the site for the Daily Japanese Threads from /jp/ is a great example of an actually helpful beginner guide and resource
https://djtguide.neocities.org/

ours could be something like,
>introduction to art as a profession, different media and career paths, examples of great art from history
>links and advice for absolute beginners about mindset, patience, imagination, (drawing on the right side of the brain and others)
>methods for developing a routine, testimony from professionals on routines, warm up exercises, weekly schedules, combatting depression
>links to resources for different media and professions (vilppu, alla prima, scott robertson, framed ink etc)
>collections of reference images for different subjects (the ones in the sticky now aren't great)
>advice on critiquing and receiving critique on your art, some examples (disney portfolio notes is a good one)
>how to get a job, which jobs to take, how much to charge for commissions

>>3173801
I've taken his class IRL and he teaches to render the figure so what you are saying is bs.

>>3173867
is he as boring IRL as he is on CGMA

>>3173859
>A reputation to who? What is this based on?

Observations of old (and present) masters and what they saw. It carries all the way today, there is a lot of lamentation in 20th century books on sculpture that profess the relative lack of drawing knowledge among sculptors and how important it is.

https://archive.org/details/mindofartistthou00binyuoft

Michaelangelo:

"Design, which by another name is called drawing . . . is the fount and body of painting and sculpture and architecture and of every other kind of painting and the root of all sciences."

Elsewhere...

John Sloan:

"It certainly would be good for sculptors to draw more. Most sculpture is a kind of bad drawing over which you can stumble in the dark.

Study the master draughtsmen and sculptors, from Giotto and Donatello to Delacroix and Barye. Their work has almost no concern for what the figure looks like.

Accuracy of anatomical fact is not essential. I guess Giotto didn't have an anatomy book, but he had a structural understanding. A man like Blake did not hesitate to make up his own anatomy."

>>3173867

He really should be emphasizing it more.

>>3173721
is your name a bastardization of "zut alors!"

>>3173874
that's an album by frank zappa

>>3173696
Thanks

>>3173673
It is not.
You need to practice a ton of observational drawing as well.
Also, depending on what kinds of things you want to draw, Scott Robertson might not be what you want.

>>3173873
Huh.

3D modeling really helped me figure out how to draw depth two-dimensionally. I'm surprised this didn't help the masters.

Alternative is too broad. We should have Anime & Manga style general. Because we all know we are hopeless weeb deep inside.

>>3173980

There is a reason why that thread has alternative in it.

Apart from the content, I believe it would be nice to host the sticky in some site such as Github where it will be easy to get feedback and make updates to the document. I do not know about other sites that allow for such collaboration, but I don't think Google Docs is a proper place for a sticky.

>>3173206
Yes, what you said.

>>3173968
I'm that anon and I agree with you. Digital and traditional sculpture really does aid in being able to visualize volumes in your head and put them down on paper, which of course leads right into construction.

Keep in mind that in older times drawing was the least expensive approach; they didn't even have good erasers; they used wet bread.

I'm in the minority but I do wish more artists would pick up traditional sculpture in addition to drawing. Michelangelo's quality of work I think lies in his ability to draw and to sculpt, although if you carefully look at his Ignudi frescos you will see anatomical, proportion and perspective issues, so even he gave up on some details somewhere along the way.

There should be a monthly competition for the best in Academicism and Realism, Experimental Figurative and Abstract Art, Illustration and Concept Art, and Anime Manga and Cartooning.

That's 4 categories.

People should pay $5 per submission that is added to the pool of money for prizes. The money is allocated separately per each category, so that if more people submit to one particular category the prize money for the category will be higher.

The top winners in each category receive prize money from all of the submission fees collected minus the curation cost (10% ??) by the ic mods or curators selected by the mods.

If there are 30 submissions every month, that's $135 ($150 - $15 = $135) prize that can be rewarded.

Winners' artworks get featured in the best of ic gallery.

>>3174047

How will you allocate the money? Like where will it go until the winner is decided?

>>3174067
That's the part I am not sure about.

Obviously the mods or the curator chosen by the mods should handle this. Using paypal or venmo or something.

There should also be a paid Request for Critique service.

Like the person pays $5 per artwork to get a long detailed professional critique that is 250~500 words long. Critics get $4 and 4chan gets $1 per every paid critique.

Critics must use a unique id, and depending on the reputation and knowledge displayed people can choose which critic to review their art.

By critique I am not saying "more loomis" or "this sucks". I am saying real critiques you would get from professors, professional artists, and students in mfa/bfa programs.

>>3174073
>That's the part I am not sure about.

then it is not going to work

Also, just ban insults of every kind.

Ban insults based on race, nationality, gender, sexual orientation, religion, and ideology.

Even ban insults on the art itself. Saying "this is shit" and "full of autism" do not count as constructive critiques.

Art is all about reputation.

If you guys want to improve the reputation of this board, you need to be civil.

Your angry and harsh comments only drive nice people away from this place.

>>3174115
/pol/ comments already get deleted

banning everything else is too extreme

>>3174115
Talk about fascism...

I think there should be more focus on perspective on the guide, morons never learn because all people link is Perspective Made Easy like it's enough.

For people that want the basics I would recommend PME and Handprint.
For anyone that wants the full package Erik Olson and Scott Robertson.

Hampton > Loomis
Figure Drawing for all it's Worth > Fun with a Pencil

Take action against people that shame cartoony/anime style illustration, It's not even a matter of beginners doing it anymore, if anyone posts a good anime drawing there will be someone that says it's shit because of the style, that type of shit is poison to the board's culture.

Please ban "muh deprresion so can't draw, bro" threads, it's nothing but pathetic fucks masturbating to their own sadness and using that as an excuse to not draw.

The w/ic/i should stay as the guy who maintains it is helpful, responds to emails and adds suggested links to the page.

What this board really needs is moderation.
Also, the big sticky is a big mess and should be avoided at all costs.

what this board also needs is a meritocratic system of affirmation of merit and exposure for artists by mods/curators.

we have lots of narrow minded people who cant understand what makes good art and also people who cant understand things beyond their rigid definition of art being academic style, such as experimental art and anime.

we dont give any meaningful critiques to each other. we just say "your art sucks." "no your art sucks. my art is better."

we need critics and curator-type people who can give in depth analysis and shut ignorant people up with depth of their knowledge and expertise and enlighten people on why certain art is good and others not good.

thats the only way to attract skillful people and grow this community

>>3174145
what would you do to improve it?

>>3173013
You need a better image because niggers can't draw.

>>3174198
Don't hate on Kim-jamal Jung Washington like that.

>>3173518
Thanks for mentioning this. Like many I only really feel at home on 4chan despite its negativity, especially regarding /ic/.

Having some sort of positive general might be a good idea. /Art & Health General/ or something perhaps? It could greatly reduce the number of
>be me
>cant hold pencil
>cryingwojak.jpg
threads made on a weekly basis and thus improve the overall quality of the board. People are whiny or depressed? Redirect them to the Art & Health General.
I'm ready to contribute if others are interested.

>>3174223
a part time janitor is the solution to that and the other issues regarding the incessant trolling

Just ban any anime once and for all. Weebs should be quarantined in /jp.

>>3174226
You're just resolving one side of the problem here, and not even the most important ones. Don't be selfish, a lot of these threads are actually genuine trust me.

Ooooh oooh can you ban the people behind the nosebro generals? Also ban hate threads on Sakimi, Proko, Kron, Shad, Firez, etc.

Can everyone who dislikes the big sticky state why or participate in its improvement? The main issue with it currently being part of the actually sticky is that I can at any moment just delete it/ruin it. Maybe a static version or an alternative mention might be better.

It's habbening guise

>>3173206
This is a good idea

>>3173206
Just these bullet points alone are helping me, good filename too

>>3174115
I really hope this post is satire or something, this would turn this place into deviantart

>>3173406
That is just gonna quickly turn into a bitch fight.

Even something as innocuous as the OP for general threads caused ruckus, imagine what a "hall of fame" type of gallery would cause

>>3174115
Fuck off nigger.

voting for this to be the new sticky image
fuck that monet's shit

>>3174332
I like that one, Zorn is great.
For the sticky image, I personally might prefer the subject to be more absorbed in what they're reading though.
Hmm. There's lots of great paintings of reading.

>>3174319
i am bigger and braver than you

dont be eager to insult people

you red neck beaver

What the fuck is /pol/ doing in this place anyways I see the cancerous attention whoring shitheads everywhere shitting up all the boards now.
Did something happened to their containment board or something?

>>3174367
fuck off eminem. you need more loomis

>>3174372
You smell like a newfag

>>3174372
They always were here. It just become worse. And /ic/ has no moderation anymore.

>>3174372
>be upset about people talking about /pol/
>constantly bring up the topic of /pol/

>>3174387
>Everyone I don't like is /pol/

Please go back to where you came from.

/ic/ sticky suggestions:

List of important art concepts, most likely in a readme text file with a break down of each concept.
>perspective
>anatomy
>values
>conrast
>light sources
>ambient occlusion
>sub-surface scattering
>composition
>edges
>etc.


Essential book list:
>Michael Hampton - Figure Drawing from
>George Bridgman - Constructive Anatomy
>Loomis - Creative Illustration
>Burne Hogarth - Dynamic Anatomy
>Gottfried Bammes
>Harold Speed - The Practice and Science of Drawing
>Richard Schmid - Alla Prima
>Scott Robertson - How to Draw
>James Gurney - Color and Light
>Robert Henri - The Art Spirit
>Craig Mullins - Sijun posts
(these should cover all the bases, personally I'm biased against Loomis, but included anyway. There could also be a list of more niche books such as Will Eisner's Sequential Art book, the Preston Blair animation guide, Richard Williams's Animator's Survival Guide, Framed Ink etc. There are also numerous old books on art available in the public domain on archive.org also in b4 some newfag talks shit about Hogarth and Bammes, notable absence here is Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain because it's an unproven pseudoscientific meme but could be argued to be an essential)

Reputable free online resources:
>Ctrl + paint
>Scott Robertson free tutorials
>FZD school
>Anthony Jones
>Clint Clearey
(far from a complete list I'm sure it can be expanded)

Reputable for pay online resources:
>schoolism
>gnomon
>CGMA

Probably some form of disclaimer about how sitting in a chair 6-10 hours a day moving your wrist back and forth is bad for you and that you might want to check out some fitness resources and pre-hab/re-hab for RSI symptoms (Athlean-x, Alan Thrall and ergoscue are all good youtube channels)

As for the sticky image, why not just the classic waving Loomis?

>>3173466
I don't normally do this but ok.

>>3173028
If Nosebro authors the new sticky I'm leaving for good.

>>3174393
See. Great example of /pol/ shitter

>>3174396
LIKED, SUBSCRIBED, UPVOTED, FOLLOWED, COMMENTED. Get this man a medal!

>>3174396
have you even seen the big sticky?

>>3174406
Yes, the idea is based on the beginner's guide, but the current beginner's guide kind of sucks, and some thing more detailed would be better similar to the /fit/ sticky.

What is Iris' sticky everyone is talking about? the one linked in the beginner thread looks good to me, maybe a bit too long for impatient beginners but full of good information.

>>3174412
Nevermind just realized the current sticky is Iris'.

>>3174411
have any recommendations or want to provide help?

>>3174414
Probably to just delete the currently One Stop Beginner's guide, and re-organize the w/ic/i and rename it the One Stop Beginner's guide. Wasn't there an actual wiki that people were working on at some point?

>>3174415
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1uwaXKU7ev6Tw_or__o8ARpUb6r2rCZYJGqwSFV9AD98/edit

for this one. recommendations for this one.

>>3173013
Our prayers have been heard

>>3173051
the original works too, it gives the ones coming here for the first time and making their own thread without lurking for a while an idea of what this board is mostly dedicated to

>>3173051
holy shit im starting to get good enough that i understand why people hate merc.wip what a fucking revelation.

>beginners who can't draw compiling resources that are supposed to teach others how to draw
Sticky is garbage.

>>3173083
>can we please stop pretending art books are so important?
for some of us that's the number 1 reason to come here

the second is the refs threads

the third is shitposting

>>3173090
you are just giving power to those which have the number like that, and we all know it's usually the less initiated that are more

an alternative would be to ask ppl to post their work and let those votes to count (intermediate and up)

>>3174465
>you are just giving power to those which have the number like that, and we all know it's usually the less initiated that are more


You're not making any sense. This is something to HELP people. Are you trying to say someone is intentionally inflating votes to HELP people?

It's as almost as if there is some kind of lie you are trying to form that the original sticky maker is updating the old sticky just to thwart off using the big sticky as a replacement.

>>3174522
no, I mean you are letting the blind to led the blind, instead of first letting the ones posting to prove that their are not blind (aka beginners which vote what they think is right because of dunning-kruger effect, ''lol, I helped'' or for whatever reason they feel the need to vote)

>>3174522
it would be super easy for me to rig the polls by doing an @everyone and getting people to vote on my server DEDICATED to the big sticky. I put in my vote, I'm not hiding it, I think the product we're working towards is better than the old sticky. However, the legitimacy of such a poll is simply not to be taken into account as one group is much more vocal and educated about the topic than the other.

So, in my disfavor, I will support my opponent. I simply hate it when people on my side do a bad job at representing my point, it is quite simply infuriating.

Here's how I see things:

It has nothing to do with helping people and has all to do with the way you can shift culture by having control of the sticky. Or in an even cheaper way, using the sticky to bring benefits to the individual (like linking your blog in the intro or something). Singular individuals, if they have a good understanding of the environment, can affect the group in great ways.

I'm willing to argue this at length and you can read more of my views on what the sticky means to me at the bottom of the document in the comments. Suffice to say, it's a topic that is not within the grasp of most people, not on an intellectual, but rather on a moral level.

>>3174537
The big sticky will harm the board far more than it will help. You also don't know how to draw.

Perma ban Nosebro that would increase the quality of this board by 30% at the very least

>>3174562
If you ban NoseBro, 2 new NoseBros will take his place.

>>3174396
>no Vilppu or Watts

literally keep nosebro as far away from this as possible

https://www.strawpoll.me/14161480

>>3174319
make this anon our president

no but honestly, if mods are deleting/banning stuff that isn't doxing but is just dumb insults everyone is going to leave

>>3174537
>>3174558
if nosebro's sticky gets put up we're all just gonna forget the sticky exists
get someone who knows how to fucking draw to make a sticky, at least Iris Hopp wasn't shit

>>3174573
The list was already anatomy heavy and Hampton teaches the same basic construction formula as Vilppu, also the Vilppu and Watts videos are better imo than the books.

>>3173749
>you probably don't want a flood of anons with one big collective chip on their shoulder to come and do their best to shit where you eat tho

i don't give a fuck. anyone worth a damn artistically is going to be humble and ego free because they actually understand what it takes to git gud. i will continue to call anyone out who wants to step up with some variation of "post your work", you can visit my critique thread if you want any examples. ill redpill you on /ic/: 90% of them are deviant art tier miserable fucks projecting their own personal insecurities on everyone around them because they're too lazy to pick up a pencil.


>>3173874
its a reference to pick related and more specifically the song zoot allures.

How about some of Monika's tutorials? They helped me out a lot when I was starting out

https://design.tutsplus.com/tutorials/how-to-learn-to-draw-stage-one-manual-skills--cms-23304

https://design.tutsplus.com/tutorials/how-to-learn-to-draw-stage-two-precision--cms-23576

https://design.tutsplus.com/tutorials/how-to-learn-to-draw-stage-3-visual-database--cms-24325

Now that the Watts Online Atelier has been leaked it makes more sense to post it rather than 10 books on anatomy and construction.

One thing ateliers have done right is using an objective measuring stick: here's a plate/cast, draw it as best as you can.

The current draw/beginner threads are unorganized chaos of people posting shitty everything with a bare few people actually trying to match the reference photo.

Good luck with getting them to read one of these books.

>>3174661
>Now that the Watts Online Atelier has been leaked

people were able to get good before a leak of anything

you dont need to hoard 300gb of content you probably will never go through anyway

relax reference image contribution.

>>3174663
This is in reference to what to post in the sticky. And given the choice of overwhelming a beginner with dozens of books written by different teachers of different time periods with different pedagogy methods, vs one teacher who linearizes the learning and built a progression of learning for you, the choice is clear.

Some time ago an Anon posted her experience studying at FZD, showing the exercises done there. It was extremely helpful and I think it should be included in the sticky.

>>3174682

Not everyone learns the same way is what I'm trying to say. If you actually watched the Watts content you downloaded you will hear him state to learn from other sources. So technically it isn't really just one teacher.

>>3174686
What was helpful about it?

>>3174697
I was going to mention that he lists other books in his PDFs anyway.

My point isn't invalidated. Throwing dozens of books at beginners with no clear approach is possibly the worst way to go about it, worse than telling them to "just draw".

>>3174700

Well now that you bring it up, why not make a Watts Atelier general? See how many people are interested in following the same material. If it gains traction then it's a valid thing to forward in everyones face.

>>3174703
If you do that then you'll let other crabs in the bucket get good, and we can't allow that.

>>3174287
this should be the new sticky pic

>>3174223
Yeah, 4chan especially /ic/ is a home for me too. You all like family to me.

Oh and also, another thing we should have is a "NEETing Guide", or something related to fostering financial independence, TLDR guides on how to invest and save money for artists, proper way to run a freelancing business, and payment options (including bitcoin because hahaha fuck paypal hahaha).

>>3174661
Sticky with torrents links is pure cancer

>>3174704
Its a huge transformation for /ic/ to make. Regular crabs are now going into a snippty snab mode and Super Crabs will be resented because of their leading role. But without that leading role and without that transformation, /ic/ will not survive. Just think of all the redlines we will get in a few years.

>>3174698
Well it showed every exercise done at FZD for every single year, it showed the average level of their student plus the Anon told her experience there and the crazy amount of hours needed to git gud.

A lot of Anons here want to get into concept art and FZD is one of the most famous schools in the world for that, but also one of the most expensive, so it's quite out of their league.

>>3174717
Does anyone still have the link to that? I have it saved on my other computer and can't get to it now.

>>3174712
As opposed to what? A mega link?

Toss Watts up on mega if it makes you feel better.

>>3174717
This can be beneficial but looking at the work presented (I went through the files also) the output is incredibly pidgeonholed. This is the main gripe with work coming out of FZD.

Yes the rah-rah mileage talk by the instructors is great but look at the work produced. Is that really what you want your work to look like after investing so much time?

In terms of actionable instruction there's not a lot in there for beginners.

>>3174725
Unfortunately no, it would be helpful if someone with the link posted it.

>>3174732
Yeah maybe you're right, it's not exactly a reliable source and I don't think it helps as much as an actual tutorial. Still I think it's a valid source, just to see what this whole FZD thing is and more or less what they do. Again, a lot of people here is into concept art and stuff like that, it would just give them some guidelines and show them the results that they bring.

>>3174594
the people have spoken

>>3174730
>let's turn /ic/ into spoonfeeding central for EZ torrents

>>3174745
I agree with you, the amount of work produced is no joke either. I have a copy of Foundations 2 that I flipped through to see what their best-of showcase is like, and the technical aspect is there but the actual concepts look uninspiring. They are seeing things through someone else's eyes and it shows because the book (and student work on FZD website) looks as if it was done by one artist.

There is something to be said for levelling beginners up, getting their work to look decent and looking at FZD can definitely be inspiring, but if you want to see concept look at Syd Mead, Craig Mullins, John Harris and other artists whose work captivates people. It's not just technical execution.

But anyway, let's get anons to accurately draw that coffee mug in front of them first. We can discuss castle and space ship concept art later.

>>3174749
That's the books thread. What do you have against this exactly?

>>3174754
Those threads attracts tumblr and other garbage to our board. Spoonfeeding is cancer.

>>3174712
idk if i agree but a nest of links will have to be replaced and refreshed every so often which might be more bother than its worth

>>3174771
Calm down.

Books and resource threads are beneficial to everyone. Having torrents/mega links that people can easily grab rather than going through hoops is a good thing.

>>3174083
you're a fucking idiot
you can't put in 9 minutes to make a good critique without asking for cash in return
kys

>>3173083
God I miss 4chan before generals were a thing. By far the worst thing to have happened to the site.

>>3174825

Can you elaborate on what happened?

>>3173083
The artbook threads are great. They're the first thing I go to when I come here. It's where I do most of the learning; sometimes you need a little help from books.

>>3174840
Thats great and all but we can't put a direct link to illegal piracy in the sticky.
Big sticky is trash,main sticky link is ok, could use an update and w/ic/i guy is good people; has given me personal art advice, adds links and makes some of those image packs.
A janitor who deletes inappropriate threads would help the board greatly

>>3174845
>we can't put a direct link to illegal piracy in the sticky.

Why? Will it be taken down or something? Or is it a moral thing?

>>3174005
If you would like to give feedback on the sticky, voice your opinions on the discord

>>3174771
Teaching Tumblr how to draw isnt cancer, its chemo.

>>3174828
It was more of a gradual process than one big thing. It all started with /v/ and threads for specific games that would stay up 24/7 because of the large number of people discussing them. Soon they morphed into the generals of today with no specific question asked in the OP. League of Legends, Katawa Shoujo, Tribes. Soon more and more games followed and everyone was pissed since they turned into circlejerks that cluttered up page 0 constantly and 404'd normal threads - this was before the built-in catalog when going through the index was still the most common way of using the site. Eventually, due to the constant complaints, moot went ahead and made /vg/, effectively cementing generals as something acceptable on the site. A shitstorm ensued, nobody was sure what goes where, yadda yadda. And now we're at Katawa Shoujo General #3365.
I guess generals becoming a thing was inevitable with 4chan's rise in popularity as the way the site works really isn't meant to handle so many users, but it did kill a large chunk of the community aspect by segregating people into what are effectively hundreds of self-contained IRC channels. Some boards handled it better, some like /int/ and /tg/ went to shit completely and barely resemble their former selves.

I use to post in the question thread quite a lot and keep them up for a good period of time till life kind of shit on me in new and fun ways, saw this on the main page, thought I would step in with my two cents

>>3173021
There is no guide to be an artist and anyone who suggests otherwise is fucking retarded.
However there is a clear path to getting good, and that is firmly cemented in realism, anyone can do this so long as they are not physically handicapped or retarded given time and honest practice.

>>3173746
>>3173829
>>3173837

For most people the most fundamental fucked up thing of theirs time and time again is proportions. rendering is absolutely fucking worthless if you are polishing shit, which is why rendering comes after being able to draw your god damn lines. get proportions down and suddenly your art goes from autistic furry shit to somewhat passable. rendering just wastes your fucking time learning proportions and getting shit done in rapid succession. remember the story of the make 100 pots vs make 1 master pot? repetition beats out careful slow planning every fucking time.

draw the figure, are the proportions right? try again till they are
get the forms, are they right? try again till they are
map the shadows (Think animation cels, this is likely called something different but I only know it as mapping the shadows) this gives you more proportion practice, more linework practice, all while not pissing your time away doing something out of a coloring book.

we see this all the time where people can render good but can't draw for shit so they mask it. rendering comes after everything else as it's a time consuming process that you can pick up rather fast.

>>3173846
No, everything you stated is shit you worry about once you are done and you have a grasp of the subjects form, doing this before hand is just pissing away time at best, and createing another fagot who hides every flaw behind a decent-good render.

>>3174891
Thanks for that reply.

I think what we are saying is the same thing but I wasn't as explicit about it: before doing any crazy construction based approaches and trying to divide into lights and shadows ala Robertson, learn to draw and render the thing in front of you as it appears. Optical, not construction based per-se. Obviously knowing that a thing is a cylinder or a box or a pyramid shape helps but people rush too quickly to compose scenes from their head without using their eyes first.

From what I've seen of the beg/draw/las threads, people have big issues with this. Even doing a master study would go a long way to helping people level up beyond their expectations. I understand not everyone is interested in pursuing realism in their work but that's no excuse to disregard what artists have been using to get better for centuries.

LAS could use less rapid, sketchy submissions and more thought out, finished work but that's my 2 cents.

Thread etiquette:
>Avoid dedicating threads to your own work, use the appropriate generals.
Image posting etiquette:
>resize images for the convenience of others
>avoid PNG/Gif files with transparent backgrounds (for example linework against a dark theme will not show up)
>photograph traditional work in a good steady lighting, do not shoot from an angle
Critique etiquette:
>"Show, don't tell" applies. Redline/overpainting will always be more meaningful than a pure text critique

On the beginner guide:
Emphasize "stealing/copying" and other good art habits more, the current sticky teaches solid fundamentals but next to nothing about developing creativity.

>>3174891

>>3173968
A Lot of the old masters burnt their shit and what they practiced on/with
What survived is honestly amazing from almost any of the artists.
A firm grasp of form, features, so on so forth, from even the shittiest artist you see paintings of where everything is all fucked in proportions.

take it with a VERY large grain of salt when masters say they are bad at something, their version of bad is many of our goals.

>>3174396
The best resource I can suggest is watts, there is a 7gb video where he shows what he does and his practice, and quite a few multi hour long videos online, these are some of the best resources you can ask for if you are able to gleam info out of watching people work.

>>3173065
everything but the last artist standing and style meme thread have been here for the last 5 years, and won't be going anywhere till they are not longer relevant.

>>3173087
generals make sure we don't overrun the board with the exact same thread and the exact same topic, I have no fucking clue why this site is so adverse to this.

>>3174460
artbooks are one of the worst ways to learn art, but sadly so many people who are great at art refuse to do refrence videos.

>>3174888
so instead of 1 place of these people to go, you want each person to make their own thread and make the board thread have a 5 minute halflife at best.

>>3174858
more legal, to sticky something is the site taking action that this is what you do, its no longer something protected behind safe harbor.

>>3173153
For the most part, we do not post illegal content, and any form of moderation will be taken fucking horribly so why would they intervene unless absolutely necessary?

>>3173202
depending on how much of a faggot someone is being, post your work can be valid response, but 99+% of the time, the post your work person is being a faggot.

>>3173284
Holy shit, I don't say this lightly as I hate this response, but go make a fucking blog if that's what you want.

>>3174888
I agree for other boards but I'm conflicted about /ic/ because of how much this board is particular. Most of our Generals don't really isolate people but serve a basic function (q&a, artbooks...), they aren't containment board for specific fans but for specific subjects (tuts for example would clutter the board if it didn't exist).
On the other hand, by concentrating a lot of good-willed people into 10 Generals, the result is that we have 50 shitposting threads going on at any moment.

>>3174607
this is iris hopp's art

TAKE A GOOD LONG LOOK

>>3174947
>wanting to know how to draw in a particular way from an artist with strong fundamentals
>shitpost

The absolute state of /ic/

>>3174936
>so instead of 1 place of these people to go, you want each person to make their own thread and make the board thread have a 5 minute halflife at best.
/ic/ is tiny and slow as molasses, you don't need a 24/7 containment general for every topic you can imagine. There are month old threads still up. Your 5 minute halflife scenario is irrational fantasy.

>>3174954
So I should make a new thread for each and every single dumb question or every single piece I want a critique on? It's just more comfortable and ordered to have some threads dedicated to a popular topic instead of having the board filled with just that shit.

Honestly I find the hate for generals extremely irrational too, especially on more populated board like /v/ where if a new game comes out everyone wants to talk about it.

>>3173250
People should have /pol/ style ID:'s
I am an advocate for this on every board, it keeps anonymity and allows censorship on a thread by thread basis to weed out fagots.
The users know better what they want then the mods do in this regard.
>>3173278
learn to figure out who is who, a very valuable skill to have
Also don't discount the unwashed masses, they may not be able to give you details on why something is fucked, but they will be able to give a direction to look in.
>>3173331
well, in the years ic has existed this has not been a board ending issue yet.
less rules the better as once something is written they will likely never go back.
>>3173659
An ID works on a thread to thread basis if I remember right, meaning you post your art in one thread, you effectively have a trip now. you go to another thread, and unless you have a posting style that makes shit obvious its you, you are now anon with a way to filter you if you are a fagot. the only way around this is by resetting your router and having a dynamic ip... and if someone wants to do that... well hats off, you attracted the attention of a massive faggot who nothing will deter. but at the very least you have, for one thread, opinions tied to people, and if they are shit, you can filter it and move on.
I am a massive proponent of ID's across the entire site because we have fagots everywhere and being able to filter them by thread would be a great boon alla round while keeping everything basically anon.
>>3173797
If the thread is up for a month, then that one thread has a id assigned to everyone for that month. For the sake of argument, the beginner thread has 72 people posting in it, questions has 128, old beginner has 98 and there is no crit thread anymore? well it was a cesspool to begin with.
but these numbers seem about right on, as in no one is flipping ips to post or a dynamic ip isn't interfering with the threads currently, so unless someone goes full faggot, you would be able to filter them

>>3174950
its not about her being good, its about his hate for me.

>>3174952
Implying the OP of those threads are but mere disguise for shitposting, like asking "what we think of (artist)" instead of openly shitting on him. Try reading a few of them and see for yourself.

>>3174976
EH, you are alright (not amazing) and have claimed copied work as your own, I don't hate you like many of /ic/ but I wouldn't read your sticky, and would prefer it if you stopped namefagging.

>>3174990
Ive claimed copied work as my own?

Just put in the beginner general's doc.

it can be updated as much as it needs to then and basically has everything everyone needs.

>>3174992
Yeah

>>3174995
I have no idea what you're talking about. Are you talking about how I once posted puts work and said it was mine as a joke to see if people would notice (with her permission)?

>>3173717
>>3173707
>>3173456
A Lot of people get good, or get better, the issue is they don't get the point you would say git gud being. the reason, they are on 4chan wanting to draw, like it or not the people who come here and stay are not the mind set to 100% devote themselves to something outside of instant gratification.

>>3173518
what we need on the sticky related to this is the skill vs eye chart and what happens.

as you get better you start to see flaws easier, and this leapfrogs skill significantly, when it happens, your skill goes down due to confidence taking a shot in the nuts.

Then you ability to see flaws plateaus and your skill leap frogs it, and the cycle continues.

getting people to understand this is crucial.

a general depression get help message is not.

>>3173633
>>3173673
>>3173962
perspective is one of those things that you don't need to be good at (grind till you hate art) you just need to know how to do, let me explain.

you can piss away 10~ hours setting up all the perspective and make it perfect, or you can get use to drawing things in good enough perspective that you can't really be called out on you fucked up.

there are only a few points where you need perfect perspective,
1) Architectural work
2) mechanical work (think blueprints like drawings or planes, shit that if its even a little off fucks everything)
3) you call perspective into focus where if its off even a moron would see something is fucked,

being able to draw proportionally correct will drill in perspective without drilling in perspective, I make this point because scott robertson is the perspective guy last time I was here, unless that changed.

>>3173739
ID:'s are a thread to thread thing, unless you are posting your work and then commenting on others in the same thread.

>>3173749
4chan in general loves to give and take away the id system all the time, if it works we get a new tool, if it doesn't, we get rid of it.

>>3174980
Maybe it's not the OP maybe the OP legitimately wanted to know how they could achieve drawing similar to or in the style of x artist and it is /ic/'s toxicity spewing over them. Have you ever thought of that?

>>3175005
Man, what a le epic joke that was. And no, I'm not talking about that, I'm talking about you posting "sketches" and instead being a bunch of copies, back when you didn't namefag, which by the way, you are still doing it.

>>3175008
bro just filter that faggot, /ic/ gets 10% better by simply learning to filter.

>>3175008
if i lie i die, I have no recollection of that. Are you talking about my feet/hand studies from a year back or are you just making things up?

>>3175018
>I swear to god that wasn't me, I didn't do that
You know, maybe I should indeed hate you. Filtered.

>>3174717
I'm pretty sure that FZD student is the current sticky author, and if >>3173028 is correct then she's working on correcting it.

>>3175021
can you just post the incident or make it a direct reference instead of assuming i'm a man of ill intent? This is my last response unless you converse rationally.

>>3173700
Oh no, we cant have generals then it would be like other forms
Oh no this anime is popular and now has 20 threads about it, we need to ban this

all while every single thread is technically a general on its own.

it's a 4chan autism thing more then a culture where you can call something it's obvious thing it is.

>>3174140
Perspective is something you shouldn't lean on like a crutch, it should be something you can adequately do freehand

proportion is far more important in this regard.

Knowing how to set up a scene in 1/2/3 point and knowing what 4/5/6 point are is all you really need, from their experience and proportion are FAR more important.

also, no rendering, dont piss time away polishing shit.

>>3174170
This board is about getting good.
getting good starts fundamentally in real life and realism "Academic" as you call it
The rejection of non academic pieces is largely due to the current state of most art schools where stealing a tree can be considered art.

>>3174227
Anime/manga style should be discouraged till they know their shit but not out right banned, this should be in the sticky, get good before get style.

>>3174274
people get hate for a reason, proko gets it at least if I remember because the shit he sells is honest to god garbage.
Let's silently draw, not talk, and then fuck up the drawing but not redo it at all because cant be professional at all its not like he is charging people out the ass for said videos. the others get hate because of poor proportions, reliants on chromatic aberration and filters to add detail, along with If I remember right one of them gets 20-40k every 2 weeks to draw the same picture over and over again? let people complain/vent or else it spills out across everything.

>>3175035
>let people complain/vent or else it spills out across everything

Getting mad because artists you don't like are successful is a mental health problem, and will belong in the future mental health generals.

>>3174966
I'm not entirely opposed to containment generals. /trv/ for example, one of the slowest boards, has a perpetual Japan General because of the extremely disproportionate amount of lazy weeaboos asking questions that can be answered with a 5 second google or a quick glance over the sticky. Over and over again. It's fine as a last measure to just dump them all in a single thread and spare everyone the eyesore when mods are too lazy to bother. What isn't ok though is making 20 different perpetual generals for every thing from alternative art to animation. That's just being overzealous. The board can hold 165 threads, it's really perfectly enough to handle someone asking a question in a separate one. If you segregate people into their little self-contained chatrooms, you end up turning the board into pic related. With a sea of a 100 shitposts in between that nobody sane will ever bother to wade through. Something has to fill the void after all when you have a dedicated Questions and Answers General just in case someone actually wants to post something serious.
>Honestly I find the hate for generals extremely irrational too, especially on more populated board like /v/ where if a new game comes out everyone wants to talk about it
A big problem with generals, especially on big boards, is that they refuse to die. People develop tiny communities they grow attached too and will try everything to keep them alive. Generals dedicated to a specific work inevitably end up filled with blogposts, waifuposts, shitposts and endless bumps, just to make sure they don't 404. Look at the stuff still going strong on /vg/. Katawa Shoujo. Undertale. FNAF. Mass Effect. Dragon's Dogma. Artificial Academy. The Witcher. All single player games which haven't had a new release in months, if not years. What is there left to talk about every single hour of every single day? Nothing. The general exists for its own sake, nobody even cares about the topic anymore. People just can't let go.

>>3174372
>>3174391
>>3174387
>>3174393
>>3174400
>>3174379
4chan is about anonymity, what everyone calls /pol/ has always been here, in every aspect of the bard, from the beginning. It's only been a fairly recent thing that people cry wolf all the fucking time over it. over on /g/ as an example, intel sold what is basicly the same cpu for years requiring new motherboards every time (they sell the chips that go on said motherboards so who would have thought, they want more money) and when they get called out for jewing people everyone cries /pol/ now when before it was more a head nod and a yea, they are being shitty.

we need to get over the /pol/ boogie man and ignore them instead of letting something derail everything.

>>3174661
FUCKING THANK YOU, Holy shit I have wanted this for a VERY long time but was unaware it leaked.

>>3174663
watts himself is one of the best teachers currently teaching, as he not only has skills that put him at the top, he also has a passion for teaching and years of being able to talk while working make him among the best.

Any aspect he personally teaches, is a resource gold mine and unlike vilppu who is in the same class skill wise, watts does not teach in the you have to understand what i'm saying to get anything out of me way.

Whole heartedly recommend anything he touches over any outside resource first and foremost.

>>3174697
watts recommends books and shit, but If I remember things right, he recommends learning one fundamental way of drawing first, his method is riley, but he also mentions others like loomis and stuff but first and foremost get good at one, then see what you can learn from the others. he he says learn from outside sources he is more coming at it from someone who moved beyond basics.

>>3174771
fuck you and your mentality.

>>3174777
no, at least not for shit that people may take action against. its likely to fuck you. tell people of the resources and possibly where you can find them but no direct links.

>>3174717
the issue with fzd, and I have seen their before and afters is that its not about getting good. they take people who are already good, and teach them what they are going to need in the future, as in what they can do to enhance their drawings, also by force feeding their method of rapid iteration... it's nothing that's really part of getting good its about getting into an industry and being taught the tools, in that regard its a tech school rather than a k-12 if that makes sense, they expect you to have the tools already, and are just rearranging how you use them.

>>3174752
concept art isn't about adding your flair, its about making someone else's vision who cant art into a vision everyone can base their shit off of. fzd isn't about getting you to be unique its about getting you yo cog in the machine level where you are a resource that companies want.

Their crits, and some of the videos they post are very useful but the methodology and results is not something most anons want or can even draw useful things from till they already have a foundation.

>>3174903
The thing most people here suffer from is proportions, not knowing how big something is in relation to something else. this is where I believe linework is far more important than anything else for the beginning. and why I always told people fuck rendering altogether till you have your shit down.

a sketch may take 2-20 minutes but rendering it may take 2-10 hours and you would rather spend that time through rapid iteration. i'm not telling people draw from the mind, that's retarded till you get good foundations in you, but don't piss time away trying to render things when you could be doing more rapid iterations

>>3174947
When I was active I would suggest people go to q&a for crits rather than crits as that place was shit. I would suggest trying to get people to move over to a general rather then make threads like that, in this case, 'how to draw like X General'

>>3175032
Honestly I don't get the hate toward you.
I know you troll and shit but I've never been that bothered by you, I guess I've never seen what people find most heinous.
Your sticky also seems like a pretty genuine effort to me.
I'm not really sure why people are dismissing it on the basis of your skill or whatever else, when it's pretty plain to see that it's a fine beginner's guide so far.

>>3174952
The problem is they want to be able to copy the style without actually having the skill to follow through.

If people want to draw like X they should have the skill to dissect a piece and see what they are doing that makes the work stand out from others.

a general of this where people look at art and point shit out about the unique way people draw would be interesting and possibly valuable, while these threads garnered sub 10 fucking post and are on page 10 after several days of life each.

>>3174954
it may be an exaggeration, but let's say the question thread isn't here, now there are 20-40 threads each asking an inane question that can be answered in one post. or the beginner thread, now we have 70 people posting in their own threads for their work. If you cant see how that would shit the board up then this topic is a lost cause for you.

>>3175054
there are currently 193 question marks in the question thread, you want each one of them to be its own thread?

>>3175054
lets go look at /a/
There are 39 threads on anime/manga that had a last update far before the last witcher one but they still stick around, and on the same topic as generals, they had a good 15 threads to dragonball on there, and if we go into consolidatable threads there would likely be 40 or so fewer.

generals keep topics alive, and they keep other topics from crib death because only a few people are interested but can't post in an... thread halflife on /a/ is 2 hours so 2 hour period of time.

we should be looking for ways to extend thread half life, not make the boards fucking unuseable like old /b/ was for conversation, especially when the topics on said board are about learning.

>>3175053
no, people who have your mentality are a problem for this.
Look, most people who get prolific and are successful even people with modicum of skill can see all the tricks they used to make people think there is more detail when there isn't, see the wonky proportions and wonder why something is popular.

If anything these people getting reaffirmation that they aren't the only ones who see this then get pissed that someone gets again, 20-40k per 2 weeks for what is largely the same exact drawing. It lets them vent and not vent on someone here, or in unrelated threads.

everyone who tries to get good has that moment of 'how the fuck do you have a job when I draw circles around you' and needs to vent.

>>3175125
people always hate people who break the anon policy. if you name you may as well trip because some cocksucker will come along and impersonate you and now you get to defend yourself.

>>3175141
>everyone who tries to get good has that moment of 'how the fuck do you have a job when I draw circles around you' and needs to vent

Yes, in the mental health thread, where their useless anger isn’t pushing other threads off the board and where other anons can help them calm down, refocus, and find their motivation again.

>>3175149
I'm for a health General - I had health issue and it's good to have advices for common things like back problem, tendinitis, etc. but
I don't think the haters belong in the Health thread, except if they hate on Sakimi because they suffer from Chromophobia.

>>3175246
fuck off, we don't need any more retarded generals. why stop at health, we can have a tools general, a dayjob/school general, and everything else tangentially related to art until this is a shitty general hangout. go to discord for that you retard

>>3175006
>a general depression get help message is not.

nigga who said it's gonna be a "general depression get help" message? if you want generic shit just google it hahahaha

Why do we have a few people in here attacking generals that been here for years all of a sudden?

>>3175296
Because they're idiots like most people here. Realistically this whole new sticky issue should have been solved in 100 posts. Just make a new sticky and get it over with for fucks sake.

>>3175246
go fuck yourself you little fucking pussy. jesus christ, man. Just go to reddit and gtfo,

Leave the sticky and give us a janitor.

>>3175337

who can realistically be the janitor though

>>3175340
me

>>3175246
Good, it will serve as a containment thread for all those depressive rants.

>>3175345

No, not you.

>wake up
>open thread
>GIANT WALLS OF TEXT

>>3175340
me

>>3175459
definitely not you

>>3175466
thought that wasn't me, I do believe I would be a fair moderator.

The only people fit to comment on how the sticky should be changed is people who have actually tried the current sticky. They're the ones who can arrive at a consensus on what helped them and what sent them on time wasting goose chase. for me, I think Loomis ends up being too overwhelming for most beginners (yes even fun with a pencil) for most beginners and I would like to see it emphasized less in the sticky. and would like to see keys to drawing emphasized more, even more than drawing on the right side of the brain. keys to drawing helped me out a lot. in the end the sticky will go mostly ignored anyway, as it is now, so I wouldn't worry too much about it and worry more about stating clearly and in BOLD to please adhere to board culture and use the appropriate fucking threads for things.

As for moderation, the only threads that bother me are the people who make stupid shitty threads like "drew this, what do you think /ic/?" when the drawing is clearly /beg/ tier. These threads should swiftly be deleted as they belong in the /beg/ thread and just clog up the bored and die with 2-3 responses. "how do I draw like this or X artist" should also be deleted as they can go in the stylized or questions thread. that's it. lest I remind you what heavy moderation ends up doing to boards.

the /ic/ artist spotlight and /ic/ competitions are dumb ideas, and nosebro should NOT be made even a fucking janitor.

>>3175480
Tell me why you would be a good moderator, kek.

>>3175533
i would kill all the threads dedicated to whining on nobodies, all the free art threads, all the misclassified threads (music videos and poems) and all the should be in a question thread threads.

No comment moderation, just better filtering, more healthy threads.

>Nosebro is also working on a guide but its far from finished.
Are you kidding me? This underagetard should be purged

>>3175565
This. Just ban the stupid discordcancer

>>3173406
4chan's best feature is its ephemeral nature. If you network with a few people here and decide you want to start a gallery for yourselves, great. But do it outside of 4chan.

>>3175538
>>3175533
>>3175480
>>3175459

i think we can all agree that if Nosebro were to become a mod, /ic/ would die. It would be bad enough having his sticky up there. That alone will make enough people leave. But if he had any more power than he does now, we would all just fucking leave. Nosebro is the worst example of an /ic/ artist. Undedicated, unhelpful, zero drive to improve, but will shitpost about how good he is until the cows come home. Nosebro. For the love of fucking god. Leave /ic/ and come back when you're not a monumental piece of garbage. I hate to single you out like this, I really do. But you brought this upon yourself and you know that.

>>3175706
that retard has power here?

>>3175706
>I hate to single you out like this, I really do.
I think you mean that you hate that you HAVE to single me out. I'm sure you love singling me out.

Gesture battle me, if you win I won't post for a month.

>>3173013
I think these should be added

Art Graphica
A bunch of really helpful tutorials
http://www.artgraphica.net

Charles Bargue drawing course helps a ton
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9LugJ4DrjW9YXc1Q0VnVWVXdFk/view?usp=drivesdk

A video on how to undergo through the book
https://youtu.be/Pj5F2y2dXUU

Edizkan Riley Method
Memorise this and try apply to other faces helps a ton
https://youtu.be/Pj5F2y2dXUU

Lastly
https://youtu.be/Pj5F2y2dXUU

>>3175291
if its not a general message then its a targeted message which isn't going to happen.

>>3175296
because some people are retarded.

>>3173013
Follow all the sources, if one method doesn't work try another one.

This helped me master faces play it in slow mo though
Edizkhan face planes
https://youtu.be/rc84ZmrSEzY

Zin Lim YouTube Videos
https://www.youtube.com/user/zinlimpresent

Several great free tutorials regarding different mediums
Art graphica
http://www.artgraphica.net

Bargue drawing course
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9LugJ4DrjW9YXc1Q0VnVWVXdFk/view?usp=drivesdk

Guide on Bargue drawing course
https://youtu.be/Pj5F2y2dXUU

Another Bargue drawing course guide
http://www.ingetang.com/praxis/bargue-gerome-drawing-course-preface-and-acknowledgements/

Successful drawing Loomis helps a ton
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9LugJ4DrjW9a0FZR3dncjV4aE0/view?usp=drivesdk

(It may seem tedious, to read all the text given but it is so true. Try take into mind into what he says because it helped me a lot)

The helpful 4chan sticky
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9LugJ4DrjW9TzJTbUpNZWZWQWs/view?usp=drivesdk

Basic Photoshop painting tutorial
https://design.tutsplus.com/tutorials/create-fan-art-for-mortal-kombats-liu-kang-in-photoshop--psd-18513

Different drawimg methods explanation
http://julialundmanmidlock.blogspot.co.za/2012/05/advanced-open-studio-with-sadie-part.html?m=1

Drawing from imagination guide
Memorise the frank riley method
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9LugJ4DrjW9aWlGRHQ4b2FuUTg/view?usp=drivesdk

Pixel Art tutorial
http://blog.studiominiboss.com/pixelart

Muddy Colours
http://muddycolors.blogspot.co.za/2013/02/20-art-book-essentials.html?m=0
Lastly
4chan recommended books help a lot
Try apply the techniques taught within the books recommended.

Master traditional drawing, as it helps a ton within every aspect of visual art i find it helps me a lot with painting aswell.
And traditional drawing feels better than digital there's just something about that paper touch.


Concept art empire site


Some nice YouTubers
Istebrak, Sycra, Zin Lim.

Intagilo method

>>3175758
>Follow all the sources, if one method doesn't work try another one.
This is the most important advice any sticky should have. If someone is trying (and I mean really trying, not scribbling and giving up after a few minutes) and doesn't get something from one source, they should look for another. The internet is filled with beginner tutorials of every kind and all of them (usually) say the same things - some a little bit differently. A beginner might have to listen to the same advice being told once or twice until something finally clicks. Art is not linear, and a teacher that worked for someone and made them "good" might not work for you.

>>3175706

Not gonna lie, I think nosebro would make a decent mod. Being a mod isn't about being the best artist.

>>3175758
have you emailed these links to the w/ic/i guy? he'll add them.

>>3175939
No sir, could you please provide me his email or show me where to find it and I'll do so promptly.

>>3175949
From the w/ic/i -"Contact me if you have any questions, comments and additions."
callmemrsage@gmail.com

@3173013
sage

Either don't change the picture or make it Bold and Brash. That is all.

>>3176149
It would be hilarious but the Renoir is serious in a comfy way. The Christmas Hat has to go though. Like >>3174348 pointed out, lot of choices (>>3173606 for a few samples). Also, as >>3174396 suggested, why not just the classic waving Loomis? Yet I wouldn't mind keeping the old man.
I've seen numerous interesting propositions for what should be added - and God that was a long thread to read, you rabid posters - but I would rather keep it simple : be more clear about what /ic/ is, a few advices about our board (slow board so no need to bump, etc.) and then links to One-Stop Beginners' Guide, the "new sticky" as an alternative, the w/ic/i and the Rules. After all that's what all newcomers will read - maybe not first, but soon enough. The links and advices given in this thread could be summarized in a document and added in an extra link or directly added to w/ic/i when relevant.

for the sake of general mental health in and around this boards culture

just have a general dedicated to normal life shit. daily greentexts.
>just fuck off to any other board
See, normally I'd agree. But I think talking with specifically other artists about mundane shit and problems would be helpful. This comes from my concern with how everybody feels pressured to constantly be drawing. It's not too far fetched to say that having that sort of thread balance out the stress of 'making it' will ground this boards' regulars more. less flaming, less baiting, less offtopic meme threads, less feeding trolls.

I mean, I know it's an ideal solution. Because I also know that one of the allures of this board is specifically the stress and the intense hatred for one another. You guys are convinced that this is what a real clubhouse of rising stars would be like - all hot headed, constantly arguing, berets and teeth flying, etc. But if you are ever going to get serious, you need to start making yourself comfortable in the digital realms you find yourself in. Let's face it: you probably can't see yourself getting off 4chan. Drawing by yourself? How utterly heartbreaking. So then at least work together to make the energies flow in more constructive patterns.

I know you frequent other boards. And every so often, you'll drop that you're a drawfag. You will probably be more interesting on that board than on here because you are surrounded by people who have never even thought about drawing anything in their lives. Feels sort of nice, right? But the truth is is it just contributes to alienating yourself. 'at home we kill each other, outside im an outlier' - does that not already sound familiar? Why emulate real life here?

>>3176373
fuck off redditards

Can't we keep the discussion about the Sticky? It's a unique opportunity to change the Sticky after 4 long years, don't let it go to waste.
There's no need to talk about the Generals in the Sticky, newcomers will find them naturally by lurking a little. Plus the Q&A always contains the up to date list of Generals, whereas the Sticky's list would be outdated quickly.

>>3173013

I would like to see a canon of good/influential artists in different genres.

I personally know quite a bit about western illustrators and fine artists but I find it difficult to keep track of all the different japanese manga creators for instance and there are a lot of skilled draftsmen in that genre that are worth studying. When it comes to niche hentai/nsfw stuff it's even more obscure.

Obviously such lists would cause controversy and disagreements, but I would personally find it to be a good reference.

Fuck your sticky. Give us IDs, janitor or whatever. Save this shithole

>>3173018
Put Zin Lim into the mix

>>3175538
If you get rid of the daily suicidal threads or find a way to contain them I'll nominate you.

Although I still don't trust you completely so having someone put to check you from power tripping is a must.

>>3175706
This place is a shitfest already, no wonder so many """" who made it """" quit. Make /ic/ great again.

>>3177092
thats what puts is for on my server.

>>3176900
IDs don't do anything

>>3177372
That's like saying "the law doesn't do anything". Just because people can break it doesn't mean it will be appealing for them to do so when there's even a slight deterrent.

>>3177372
Ohh tell you what, it'll reduce the amount of shitposting by a huge margin.

>>3177640
Yes but on the flip side it'll showcase shitposters more because the people who don't IP-hop or phonepost will shitpost less. People who want to stir shit up will always find a way.

Delete /beg/, it's not helpful it's a stupid attempt at containing everyone new and prevent them from learning.

>>3173129
/ic/ is dying because better communies exist outside here.

Sad to say.

>>3177801
Whenever someone brings this up there's an obligatory prompt of "Which ones?" followed by some bullshit of how /ic/ is better because it's not a hugbox.

This place is a faggot box.

>>3173352
Do you have the 4th book

>>3177761
/draw/ are the only people that keep them here because they don't need literal garbage in their thread

have fun trying to convince them otherwise

>>3174396
>essential book list
>first title
>Michael Hampton
This is the main issue - that no one seems to follow the 'big to small' principle or thinks about how one part relates to the whole.

For instance, art as a whole has two aspects, creative and technical. The fundamentals (technical) have all one thing in common - they teach you how to draw form.
This alone means that human anatomy is't a fundamental skill, because you can draw form without it just fine (landscape painters, industrial designers, etc), and should be of absolutely no concern to a beginner.

>>3175736
The 3 YT links are the same anon.

This is a good bait thread by the mods.

Remember, they have the power to ban shit threads but they don't. Silence is acceptance and they are 100% complicit in the shit that /ic/ is.

>>3178302
This

>>3177761
>Delete /beg/
dumbest suggestion in the thread. sounds like they were mean to you one time and you couldn't roll with the punches

Mods, just ban shitposters and delete shit threads, please. Most of the threads and posts nowadays are worthless. The sticky isn't the problem.

>>3178707
>Mods, just ban shitposters and delete shit threads, please. Most of the threads and posts nowadays are worthless. The sticky isn't the problem.

See >>3178302

>>3173013
>There have been some recent calls to update /ic/'s sticky with new links and information.
>recent
top kek people have been complaining about that outdated piece of shit for years now.

>>3173206
do this

As a 4chan ic beginner and the ZinLim shiller, ngl when I got onto this board I didn't bother to check the sticky, later found the beginner thread. I think that most of us don't need a sticky as most anons ignore the advice especially if it's repetitive eg helpful loomis they want quick git gud tips. I think provide them with a "how to git gud quick guide" eg the barebone essentials since nobody is going to be bothered with reading vilpuu or loomis, only a few who suprise me give them tips like draw from photo, use straight lines and blur eyes and put that vision on paper and refine.

>>3178302
It's funny how you can be warned/banned after posting loli drawing here in less than 5 minutes. But in same time you can create shit threads, post /pol/ shit and shitposting in alt threads without any fear

>>3173018


>>3173018
Agreed please put Zin Lim into the mix, he's pretty OG

>>3179307
That's exactly it. The mods are active and their selection in what gets banned and what stays speaks volumes.

To anyone who is hoping the board will get cleaned up I have only one thing to say: start looking for another board if you want good art discussion and feedback.

This isn't it.

>>3178189
>and should be of absolutely no concern to a beginner.
Unless, of course, they want to draw people, as most do. Not only that but anatomy is second to gesture in the way MH teaches, and gesture absolutely is a fundamental skill, being an aspect of composition.

And, above all, art is holistic. There is no strict "big to small". Saying that is to say that there is an arbitrary progression of skills or points of study artists need to go through before tackling another. There is not. There is only the basic truth that learning one skill, either in the realm of "creativity" or "technique", will enhance an artist's skills in other areas (again, art is holistic. each small part benefits every other small part) and the truth is that the more you draw the better you become at drawing, if you go through Michael Hampton's book you will be a better artist for it.

A competent artist will have strong fundamentals and visual library. But the order they're learnt in is neither apparent nor important to the viewer. If you learn perspective you will still need to learn anatomy and vice versa. The end result of a person's studies, whatever order they're done in, will be the same.

You may argue learning in a certain order is "faster" but that, if anything, is the one thing that is absolutely not consistent from one person to another.

Well, all this is to say that you cannot optimize art learning by sequencing it. But you CAN try to recommend the best resources of each subject for people to learn from, and Michael Hampton's book is well worth recommending.

Also, here's one more point to think about: the list that anon gave might not have been any particular order

To get this thread back on track I'm going to post a basic example sticky as a starting point. The final product doesn't have to look anything like this, so feel free to post edited versions of this example or entirely new sticky candidates.

There have been lots of great resources posted, but we need to keep things concise. So if there are any other links that are absolutely essential and must appear in the sticky itself sticky, please say so. Otherwise they should be included in the Big Sticky or the w/ic/i.

Welcome to /ic/ - Artwork/Critique

/ic/ is a board where artists can post their work and receive constructive feedback, and also discuss styles, techniques, mediums, and other aspects of the visual arts. Please give useful criticism, helpful tips, and encouragement to your fellow artists!

<u>Helpful Resources</u>
Big Sticky
How to Draw: An /ic/ Guide
The w/ic/i

Remember, only constructive criticism is permitted. If you can't say something that will help the artist improve, don't say anything at all. Rude or offensive comments will result in a ban and should be reported! Singling out individual artists for trolling or abuse will not be tolerated. No vendettas or community drama!

>>3179547
>Rude or offensive comments will result in a ban and should be reported!

Really hope this is true. Only I know how much undeserved and destructive shit I’ve had to endure just to have a place for receiving critiques

>>3179589
It's not. What a joke

>>3179544
>>3179547
Animu image in the OP please.

>>3179621
Give pictures for it.

>>3179547
Please make it clear that /ic/ is mainly for drawing and painting, and that "artwork" doesn't mean the same thing as "art". It'd be helpful to cut down on one off posts by new users if you linked /gd/ (especially /gd/), /3/ and other creatively oriented boards in the sticky.

Also, I think it'd be useful to inform new users of the typical threads on /ic/. Take a page from /wg/'s sticky, and point out that there are already lots of threads to post their artwork new users would be better served in. The beginner thread, porn, animation, alternative art, and pixel threads are some of the most important threads to this board where 90% of OC is posted and criticism is received.

I'm not really fond of including the google doc. It's literally the length of a novel, is unfinished in parts, and its tone is occasionally unfitting for something that's going to be an officially sanctioned and recommended sticky. If the sticky needs to be concise, which is fair, then the resource it links too should be concise as well. Not to mention the fact that a sticky is no substitute for lurking moar. I don't know if you, the moderator, have read its entirety or not but if you haven't you should and appraise whether or not it's fitting, first hand. Please do not recommend new users resources you wouldn't use yourself.

cont.

>>3179654
part 2

I think recommending books is an important thing to be do, but because of that I think the sticky image should look something like pic related, just a simple list of recommended books everyone should read through at least once. Making that image would be a good use of this thread's collaborative efforts, it's the only time /ic/ is ever going to be in one place to decide on a common list of canon literature.

Of course, clarity and brevity are important, the image shouldn't be more than 10 books recommended. /ic/ can obviously debate about which 10 should be the first recommended but there's at least 3 books that I think everyone on /ic/ can agree are great, which would be "Fun with a Pencil", "Perspective Made easy", and "Keys to Drawing". Two of those books are public domain, all 3 are acclaimed both in /ic/ and out, and have been for decades, and all 3 are the simplest and clearest books made for learning artists. "How to Draw" and how "How to Render" are required reading for today's artists too, the information in them is time tested, objective, and immensely useful for all fields of artistic endeavor. Add those to /ic/'s 10 recommended books and that's half the list sorted. From there we just need one or two books on anatomy, maybe a more inspirational book like "The Art Spirit", and a couple others of lesser importance

>>3179547

>>3179547
ugh this is the first time ive seen the big sticky and it sucks

>>3177846
Ask in the General, they'll help you. So far only Framed Perspective is still missing and according to Anons, it isn't even that good.
>>3178433

>>3179621
We aren't a hivemind so no choice could satisfy everyone, but I feel that an animu pic would be misleading to newcomers. For example, why would they accept to be redirected to the "Alternative" General?

something like the /h/ sticky is all we need

>rate my drawing i did in 5 minutes during recess
>X popular artist is actually bad and i will tell you why
>why is the art of X country/medium/discipline so inferior to Y completely unrelated phenomenon?

>(USER WAS B& FOR THIS POST)

>>3179750
This is a good idea, it conveys efficiently what is deemed unacceptable.

>>3179516
I have to disagree. Gesture perhaps, but the issue with anatomy is that you think of it as a skill, when really it is a subject, so while holistic learning is very beneficial and there is no particular order to follow when learning a skill, when it comes to subject that you pick, there is a recommendation so basic it could be considered a rule - to go from simple to complex.
If you wanna learn to play a piano, picking from the 'complex' category (eg. a Mozart prelude) will only discourage you, as the author assumes you already posses a wide range of skills to tackle the subject properly.

Same with Michael Hampton - his book is literally god tier, probably the best figure drawing book out there, but it assumes you already have an above average understanding of perspective and form. Without it, you'll have little to no benefit from it.

>>3179621
No animu pls.
It's not like this is not an anime board, but it's still very different from Anime or Oekaki boards - I think we should emphasize this distinction.
How about some Zorn, the orientalists or everyone's beloved Sargent?

>>3179547
It should be a multi post sticky with a lot more information like /3/'s
It should have a definitive list of books for n00bs to do in order. like this >>3179656 but not necessarily those books
It shouldn't link to things that can change at a whim.

>>3179718
how would you make ti better?

The pastebin from the Beginner Thread is a MUST.
PLEASE INCLUDE IT.

Also can there be a more in-depth guide on how one should go about learning to draw? Most beginners, including me, are overwhelmed with what to learn to draw with, we don't know where to start (aside from reading Key to Drawing) and then where to go from there. Perhaps some recommendations like a pre-made approved and recommended learning schedule, with recommended materials to read/reference from while you're learning. For example:
X hour of warmup, draw whatever you want
X hours of learning perspective; Book by Author
X hours of learning anatomy; Book by Author
etc, etc.

>>3180022
The pastebin is the third link in the w/ic/i and has been there for a long time.
The sticky is here to support and facilitate the function of this board; not to replace it by being a end-all be-all learn to draw resource.

>>3178197
Oh shit didn't notice lemme correct it give me a sec tnx anon

>>3178197
Corrected last 2 links

Edizkan riley method
https://youtu.be/rc84ZmrSEzY

Lastly
https://www.youtube.com/user/zinlimpresent

>>3173013
Zin Lim shiller here,For drawing from the imagination I've assembled a mini guide I'll link the resources in a reply

>>3180015
Zin Lim guy here, ok now you want to draw from the imagination right. First have a picture in your head.

Now instead of directly going into 100% drawing mode, draw like mini thumbnails of how the pic in your brain is going to look like, like quick doodles or stickmen just like a little no technique thing just to get your idea on paper (almost like preschool drawing from imagination, no technique needed here).

I hope you're still following me ok so once that's done, select the little doodle that looks best and that roughly corresponds with the image into your mind.

Now here is where the technique loomis and vilpuu and all that stuff comes to mind.

Now take your quick doodle sketch, and start using boxes and spheres ( mini 3d mannequins ) to layout your thumbnail in 3d, once you've got that composition right and it looks similar to your thumbnail you are 2/3 of the way through. Understanding of Perspective plays a huge role here.

Now is the anatomy bit and where all your art books come into play, start transforming your shapes like the cylinders into arms etc.

Now last step place in shading. Ill link some resources you can use, but if I also place zin lim in the mix don't accuse me of shilling.

Hope this helps

>>3180015

>>3180091
If guys want I can assemble a "Want 2 git gud quick no time for loomis guide" going past the instructional books such as vilpuu etc with lots of text.

>>3179547
Welcome to /ic/ - Artwork/Critique

/ic/ is a board where artists can post their artwork and receive constructive feedback.

Check the catalog before starting a thread. We have various general threads for sharing different types of art, asking questions, discussing artists’ mentality, and sharing resources. Otherwise, keep any new threads towards the discussion of styles, techniques, mediums, and other aspects of the visual arts.
[Other creative boards exist; be sure to use the right one: /i/, /3/, /gd/, etc.]

Please give useful criticism, helpful tips, and encouragement to your fellow artists!

Helpful Resources:
**Either a New Guide goes here or replies to sticky with more info** (An Artist Overview)
The w/ic/i (A big index of art related sites and resources)
Big Sticky (A lengthy Artist guide)
How to Draw: An /ic/ Guide (Another Beginner’s Guide)

Remember, only constructive criticism is permitted. If you can't say something that will help the artist improve, don't say anything at all. Rude or offensive comments will result in a ban and should be reported! Singling out individual artists for trolling or abuse will not be tolerated. No vendettas or community drama!

That may be a little long.
1/3

>>3180143
>>3179656
Here’s a draft list people can play around with. Once you’re past Keys to Drawing then you could jump around but things build up better in this sequence. I tried to keep the top ten from being too redundant and to stick with the books that have a lot of examples and/or actionable steps. It’s missing drapery, animals, and probably some other stuff.

1 "Keys to Drawing" by Bert Dodson
2 How to Draw: Drawing and Sketching Objects and Environments from Your Imagination by Scott Robertson
3 Figure Drawing - Design and Invention by Michael Hampton
4 Drawing Scenery, Seascapes, and Landscapes by Jack Hamm
5 Force - Dynamic Life Drawing for Animators by Michael D. Mattesi
6 How to Render: The Fundamentals of Light, Shadow and Reflectivity by Scott Robertson
7 Framed Ink; Drawing & Composition for Visual Storytellers by Marcos Mateu-Mestre
8a Anatomy of Facial Expressions by Uldis Zarins
8b Anatomy for Sculptors by Uldis Zarins
9 Color, 2nd Edition - A Workshop for Artists by David Hornung
10 The Skillful Huntsman by Khang Le, Mike Yamada, Felix Yoon, and Scott Robertson

The Animator's Survival Kit by Richard Williams
Sketching the Basics by Koos Eissen
Sketching Manga Style Vol. 4 - All About Perspective by Hikaru Hayashi
Beginner's Guide to Digital Painting in Photoshop – Characters by 3DTotal
Elemental Magic Volume I - The Art of Special Effects Animation by Joseph Gilland
Elemental Magic Volume II - The Technique of Special Effects Animation by Joseph Gilland
The Art of Urban Sketching - Drawing On Location Around The World by Gabriel Campanario
The Art Spirit by Robert Henri
The Art of Yoh Yoshinari Rough Sketches (Along with his other artbooks)
The Art of Yoji Shinkawa (along with the Metal Gear Solid artbooks)
Vilppu Drawing Manual by Glenn Vilppu
Color and Light: A Guide for the Realist Painter by James Gurney
Figure Drawing for All It's Worth by Andrew Loomis

We could probably have a good learning path list for non-books as well.

2/3

>>3180148
>>3179997
>>3179654
I think Big Sticky has great information but it’s too bloated with lots of mini tips and ideas that make it hard to recommend as a first stop. Fixing it would require a lot of shuffling so that the focus of each section is clear but there’s so much information that it would be better to leave that as is and make a new one.

The outline line I put here:>>3173206 is what I mean. If someone could setup another Google doc or something and expand on it that would be great. It would get much longer but since we have the other resources it shouldn’t get to big. Then when it’s complete the sticky would link the final version maybe as a PDF (or a series of replies).

3/3

>>3180150
im not willing to undertake another 200 hour project, you've got a vision. Mind doing it? I'm asking unironically.

>>3179621
I'm an animefag and I'm against the idea of having an anime pic.

>>3180155
If I make a mini "how to git gud quickly guide without Loomis" that's quality and only includes the bear essentials can that be a sticky for the beginners?

>>3180176
im not the mod so i cant make the decision, but id definitely entertain incorporating it into the big sticky

>>3173021
There aren't rules but there are definitely ways to fuck yourself over early, the implication isn't that you absolutely have to read these books or you'll fail it's just that reading them will help you and in the long run you'll probably be happier with your work and how you draw if you've taught yourself how to do it.

Making a sort of a "training plan" would be good. There are some crunch schedules people post on gens, it might be good to have a proper one on w/ic/i, with all the "from this am to this pm figure drawing" stuff.

On the note, drawabox dropped the anatomy lessons, seeing as we focus on it here a lot it might be good to create some lessons like that ourselves.

>>3180287
Schedules are a meme

>>3180304

>>3180148
Thank you for your thinking on the matter. Generally I think you've recommended a lot of good books, but obviously a few too many. This isn't intended to be an end-all-be-all, but a set of books that are both useful to beginners and important to lifelong artists. If we can recommend people a good initial set, and help people grow with them, then they'll seek out the other books and resources to fill in the gaps on their own. EEE

Also the list isn't ideally a "top ten" in any order, just 10 very useful books covering diverse but important subjects. Some books are useful primers to others but that should be more case-by-case than the whole list.

A few specifics though
> 2 How to Draw
Recommending this before "Perspective Made Easy" is pushing beginners off the deep end. If H2D is a prerequisite to H2R then Perspective Made Easy is to them both.

>3 Figure Drawing
>7 Framed Ink
>8b Anatomy for Sculptors by Uldis Zarins
>9 Color, 2nd Edition - A Workshop for Artists by David Hornung
I support all of these book's inclusion as well, they're all excellent and cover the subjects of figure drawing, composition, hardcore anatomy reference and color theory extremely well. Force is redundant to MH's book though.

But there are a lot of books you've recommended that I think are too niche, like Urban Sketching, the Skillful Huntsman, and Drawing Scenery(...). Good urban sketching and scenery drawing skills come from good perspective skills above all. The Skillful Huntsman is a book on design that's useless to people that don't already know how to draw. The animation books take up too much space, let users find them if they're interested in animation. They're all good books but the books we recommend should be practical, broad, and beginner friendly above all.

cont

>>3180421
Part 2

So, correct me with any revisions, but the nine recommendations (with categories) are tentatively:
>Keys to Drawing (Beginner's Guide on Drawing By Eye)
>Perspective Made Easy (Beginner's Guide to Perspective)
>Fun With a Pencil (Beginner's Guide to Construction)
>How to Draw (Perspetive)
>How to Render (Rendering)
>Michael Hampton's book (Figure Drawing)
>Uldis Zarins' books (Anatomy Reference and Study))
>Framed Ink (Composition)
>Color, 2nd edition (Color Theory)

Which leaves one open spot for the tenth. With that in mind it might be a good idea to include a book on drawing scenery/ backgrounds after all, but I'm also interested in hearing other /ic/ user's thoughts.

Why is there a push for this random zin guy's youtube channel all of a sudden? He doesn't even speak on this videos. Suspiciously this week it's been spam >>/ic/?offset=24&ghost=yes&task=search&search_text=zin%20lim

Is it the artist himself trying to get a spot in the sticky sticky?

>>3180447
And looking at the dates it's 2 days after this thread went live. I'm not pointing fingers or anything but just look at all the spam. The only 1 mention was back in 2014 and once in july and never again an utter on this board.

>>3180447
>>3180454
It doesn't have to be the guy himself though. If you search the archives for "Gary Meyer" you'll find a big cluster of posts where I was recommending him a lot. It's probably just be a guy who recently found the channel and wants to recommend it.

>>3180421
>>3180424
I'd suggest the following nice old pasta that got bastardized into >>3179656 and >>3173352 by some anon wanting to show off his book collection. The only change I'd make is recommending Keys to Drawing and Perspective Made Easy as 1a and 1b. They're both great intro books and it's nice to have construction exercises to work on when you get tired/stuck on observation exercises and vice versa. Here's the original post:

1: Read Perspective Made Easy and do all the exercises.
2: Read How to Draw by Scott Robertson and do all the exercises and watch the videos.
3: Read Figure Drawing by Andrew Loomis and/or Michael Hampton and do all the exercises.
4: Read Drawing the Head and Hands by Loomis and do all the exercises.
5: Read Force by Michael Mattesi.
6: Read How to Render by Scott Robertson and do all the exercises.
7: Read Color and Light by James Gurney and do all the exercises.

There you go, with 4 hours of focused practice a day (don't check your smartphone every 30 seconds) this training will last a whole year or a bit more. Also you need money to buy the books and a cintiq or intuos pro and ellipse templates etc.

After you complete that just do what you want for a while, explore styles, what you like to paint and such. THEN make a list of the things you are not good at and you want to learn and get to it.

Welcome to /ic/ - Artwork/Critique

/ic/ is a board where artists can post their artwork in its relevant thread and receive constructive feedback from other artists.

Those wishing to improve their art can find a variety of educational books, guides and tips from other artists.

It is not recommended to fully trust the advice of anonymous posters, or of one resource over another.

There is no one way to get good at art, nor one definition of good art. The process takes time, dedication and perseverance. But, with /ic/, you don't have to go it alone.

>>3180447
Its not the guy him self, it's me @kpare24 on insta. I'm pushing him for a valid reason, most anons when told to improve are told to read Loomis. Now this kid probably won't cause it's to long etc, next best thing Zin Lim a qualified asian instructor who's not bogged down by having live commentary in his videos and who's videos always consist of quality drawings as well as solid fundementals taught by loomis as well.

I'm trying to help beginners, cause most of the advice given here is "read loomis" no doubt he helps but some are just lazy

Kind Regards
Zin Lim shiller

>>3180143
this is much better. the other one was way too fucking nice. I'd delete this line

>/ic/ is a board where artists can post their artwork and receive constructive feedback.

to make it a bit shorter as it is a bit redundant.

>>3180704
I agree, it really hits all the points that are common problems on the board. If I could offer a slight revision.

>>3180143
>Please give useful criticism, helpful tips, and encouragement to your fellow artists! Remember, only constructive criticism is permitted. If you can't say something that will help the artist improve, don't say anything at all. Rude or offensive comments will result in a ban and should be reported! Singling out individual artists for trolling or abuse will not be tolerated. No vendettas or community drama!

All of these are part of the same idea: don't be a dick. I think they should be a part of the same paragraph rather than split up.

>>3174640
Monika
Przestań.

>>3179632
I like this one. Make 4chan weeb again

>>3180421
>>3180424
I’m fine with most of that. I think How to Draw is simple enough after Keys but I guess it might be too heavy and Perspective Made Easy is recommended a lot. Force and Huntsman weren’t necessary along with the extra books; I was just throwing things out there.

I’m a bit torn with Fun with a Pencil. The style is very off putting but that itself introduces the idea of being flexible with construction (different head shapes and body types) a bit more than Hamptons’ book. Drawing Scenery should stay in though and be after Fun with a Pencil on your list. I would describe it as a Beginner’s Guide to Composition and Landscapes. Pic related. It’s got a lot of very simple examples that make it easy to learn from and a good prequel to Framed Ink (which adds people, more detail, extreme angles, and more complex lighting, etc)

That’s a good list of ten but my thoughts could be off or there could be other good stuff so other people should chime in as well.

>>3180155
>im not willing to undertake another 200 hour project, you've got a vision. Mind doing it? I'm asking unironically.

It certainly will take some time. I can't confidently say I could have something both good and usable any time soon. I'm hoping others reading will step up to write a draft we all can edit.

Sections 2, 3, and 4, of >>3173206 combined with a final list of >>3180424 would make for a nice main guide to point anyone to. Then, if they need more, they can use the other 3 sticky resources or make a new thread (hopefully one that is more specific after having read the main guide).

>>3180704
>>3180719
I'm definitely fine with those changes.

>>3179621
I nominate pic related for the new sticky's image.

>>3180917
>a place for people to improve their art
>the main image is poorly drawn animu shit
No.