/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

> oh look its one of these threads

so a /pol goes to /ic ... It's so summer in here

>>3000856
what the fuck are you talking about?

>>3000861
He's one of these fucking idiots who sees a white cop and a white kid in the 50s and thinks its white supremacist crap. He deserves perhaps not death, but to be flogged with glass bottles.

I think tracing is alright. The artist took some liberties, as well, but I also think that not crediting or paying the photographer is wrong. This is a very, VERY similar work, but as long as the artist gets permission from the original source to use the work I see no problem with it.

You'll get these fags in here who think tracing means you have no talent, but honestly their work is always terrible. If you want to eventually break away from tracing then go for it, but don't shit on other people's methods.

>>3000856
I dont get it

I was asking because some times artist get alot of hate for tracing stuff.

When it count as "inspired or reference" and when is "shame on you"

>>3000878
>He's one of these fucking idiots who sees a white cop and a white kid in the 50s and thinks its white supremacist crap. He deserves perhaps not death, but to be flogged with glass bottles.
Wow?
Where did that came from?
lol

>>3000886
Are you just perpetually confused? Do you remember what day it is?

>>3000887
>Are you just perpetually confused? Do you remember what day it is?
7102/50/92?

On any case, I keep adding more examples trying to keep it on topic.

>>3000819
CHOOB???!!!

>>3000890
I dont know what is Choob

>>3000878
I didn't get that from his post at all desu. Maybe take a break lad, I hate /pol/ shit too but now you're seeing it where there isn't any

>>3000897
Which is the original?
I dont know

>>3000890
Choob had a rough life :'(

>>3000819
B R O A D
A
C
K

>>3000888
jesus, thats disturbing. i mean ive seen alot of these threads on ic but i dont think ive seen that pic before. how the fuck do they not get fired?

>>3001006
if you ask the janitor to trace a picture
he probably cant
so this get the work done

i'll tell you one thing right now, if you're a profssional and you don't heavily reference, you're wasting everyone's time and money

I was tracing shit for a bit there because I have been having such a hard time focusing lately. The stress I'm going through is insaannneee.

Stopped doing it though. In the end it really didn't save me all that much time and the results were pretty much the same if I just winged it.

>>3000819
Everyone traces, OP. Sakimichan does it, so does Artgerm, so does Frank Cho, Arthur Adams, Gil Elvgren, Baron Von Lynd, Frank Frazetta, and every other pro in the business.

What's their secret? They never told anyone about it, they never made a big fuss, they just did it.

Nothing's original anymore; everyone traces in some form or another. OP's picture is a perfect example of taking a reference photo and adding a few things here and there, then painting it, and then it's called art.

I trace I need to, and I copy every chance I get. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just lying to you. Every d/ic/k and bitch on here does it.

Why aren't you?

>>3000888
>>3001006
To be fair, comic book artists get paid fucking shit. Like, really really shit.

>>3001031
I trace when I need to*

>>3001031
Thats why Greg Land and Rob Liefeld are living jokes in the comic community. Nobody respects tracing.

>>3000878
You are autistic. The photo is reference Norman Rockwell took for the finished illustration next to it. What op is referjng to is artist that take photos and trace them for their final product like Rockwell, drew struzan, and many other artists have done and will do in the future. The only rule in art is "does the end product work?" If the answer is yes then who cares how you made it? If you aren't claiming another artists work for your own then you can do anything else and be "legitimate".

>>3001077
Rockwell traced and copied too. No one's original anymore except for the cavemen that drew on walls.

>>3000888
>>3001032
Wait... Are we not supposed to do this? I always take references for my drawings and modify them just a little. Do real gud artists just draw everything from imagination?

>>3000819
I'm not sure what you're talking about because that picture isn't tracing at all.
If you're talking about photoreference it can be a useful tool although limited.
If you're talking about tracing then it's debatable. To me it's a waste of potential compared to actual shape design but that can be a time saver too.

>>3001090
>Do real gud artists just draw everything from imagination?

Some, but don't fall for the meme that references are inherently bad. As long as you don't crutch on them they're fine.

>>3000819
Is this from Fallout 4?

>>3001090
Unless you're literally drawing over them to get 1-1 line replication you're probably in the clear

in my opinion, honestly, the answer is that it's never okay. tracing is direct copying and a machine can do that. it's not art. on the other hand I'm totally okay with referencing the shit out of anything you want.

>>3000819
Not all tracing is equal.

This is, and others can correct me if I'm wrong, a photo Rockwell commissioned for the express purpose of painting. He set up the shoot. The people in these photos are his acquaintances, and arranged under his direction.

Disregard the drawing aspect, and the finished artwork still shows a tremendous amount of workmanship, skill, and his own ideas. This usage is professionally and ethically sound, and the artistry of the piece is unquestionable.

This does not excuse all tracing, as not all tracing meet the criteria above. Tracing someone else's photo and composition is ethically dubious and possibly illegal. Tracing another person's drawing is artistically shallow. Tracing a hentai manga and putting a cartoon head on it is deceptive. Nearly all such instances add nothing of original value to the work, and are typically transparent attempt to supplement one's lack of technique. They would be correctly labeled as hacks.

>>3001077
>trace them for their final product like Rockwell
>like Rockwell
Look closer. That ain't traced.

>>3001074
>Nobody respects tracing.
No.

Shit artists who don't know how to be professional don't respect tracing. All these witch hunts over tracing are always>>3001074
perpetuated by jellyfags who are butthurt over someone else's success.

>>3001090
It's perfectly fine to trace, just know how to do it. Trace the gesture, the perspective, the composition, the construction. But never trace the lines/silhouette 1:1.

Also, combine various elements from multiple references, never stick to just one.

Ideally, take your own photos, and tell the autistic retards on /ic/ to suck it.

>>3001391
It's traced, tracing should never be 1:1.

>>3001427
>tracing should never be 1:1

how could it not be 1:1? move the tracing paper around while you draw?

You do what you gotta do to make art. People that say otherwise are just people that got stuck in anatomy class and never managed to to get to a point where they could draw anatomy from their head in a better manner than a 10 year old with tracing paper.

It still takes skill to trace.

>>3001427
1:1 is the very definition of tracing. Unless you're an exceptionally bad tracer.

I think you're confusing tracing with using a reference.

>>3001424
If you're not copying the lines 1:1 it's not "tracing".

>>3001447
>>3001456
No, you guys have clearly never traced before.

There are many ways to trace, and it all depends on what you want.

Sometimes you just gotta use tracing to get a very tricky construction on a figure, or the perspective on an urban landscape.

Thus, you take a photograph, and you loosely sketch the lines over the photograph to get what you need. You then take that, and transform things to suit your scene.

You draw a semi-rough sketch while tracing, and use that as your underlay for whatever you're gonna make. This is perfectly fine, as you're not taking from something else 1:1 and you still apply your knowledge of the fundies to create something unique.

The only time you should ever be tracing 1:1 is when inking your own drawings.

>>3001466
IT'S CALLED USING A REFERENCE, RETARD.

Tracing is a very specific technique, where you literally draw over the lines in a reference, it's not always wrong either, just another tool.

But not all use of reference is tracing, try to get that in your thick head.

>>3001472
Putting your paper over a photograph, and drawing over it = tracing.

Only a literal retard would trace something 1:1. This is what shows me that you're still a beginner.

>>3001478
>Putting your paper over a photograph, and drawing over it = tracing.
This is exactly what I told you, you learn fast, mys tudent.

>Only a literal retard would trace something 1:1. This is what shows me that you're still a beginner.
No rules, only tools.

>>3000888
Very stilted as a kind of patchwork technique. It's funny because a lot of artists are still learning on the job, at least he's getting paid. It's better to use softer lead and search around for your composition than it is to trace.

I think Rockwell was justified in using cameras, projectors and drafting trace paper... He took his own photographs and altered his compositions on canvas. It seems very elaborate but look at the results, I'd rather have one of his oil paintings than the pictures he took!

Tracing is for amateurs now.

Look here beautiful new style
http://www.webtoons.com/en/challenge/1001-reasons-to-live/list?title_no=83186
All the comments and questions are complimented for his great artistic talent obtained from birth.
> I started drawing before I turned 1 year old. That makes 28years of practice. I suppose art school helped too.

how can people be so sure anything is traced though?
the human body can only do so many poses and there are only so many angles I would think plenty photos, art and other artworks end up being the same by chance

>>3001623
When tracing you don't just copy the posture, you also copy the style so it's easy to recognize.

>>3001031
Garbage tier bait

>>3000882
what and ulgy ass on this (((trace)))

>>3001143
Rockwell didn't fucking trace this photo. He just used it as a reference.

>>3000819
Thicccccc

>>3000819
What kind of weird question is that? It's never wrong. Do it whenever you want.

>>3001658
how does that work for photos?

>>3001849
My ethics textbook says you're wrong.

>>3001845
kek

>finally ditched drawing for graphic design illustration where no one cares about tracing
>get paid more for doing less

>>3001854
No it doesn't.

Everything is a Remix, bitch.

>>3001867
you're the bitch

>>3001530
people are FUCKING RETARDED

>>3001483
tracing is not referencing something, it's copying something. it's a different skill set. looking at an object or a photo and replicating it is much harder than putting a paper over a photo and copying the lines.
you're right, there are no rules, only tools, but you're a fucking tool if you rely on tracing because it's noticeable and amateur as fuck 90 percent of the time.

>itt people who have never worked on a deadline so think tracing is bad

>>3001905
there are people that work on deadlines that don't trace

>>3000878
lefty retard

>>3000878
Even if he is from /pol/ and likes that image for reasons you disagree with he hasn't brought anything up, stop spurging

>>3001905
>t.tracer

>>3001905
You should only trace over your own work or bought stock photos/your own photos to meet deadlines. Otherwise go get cancer and die.

>>3000819
I traced a lot for a couple years
I learned nothing
Observation is literally essential to knowing what the fuck you're doing, if you're just tracing, you're not learning anything except maybe rendering or whatnot
People might compliment you on your drawings but deep down, you're just a glorified turd polisher
If you're not already an accomplished artist with deadlines, don't fucking trace

>>3000819

It's bad when you have no creative integrity whatsoever, and when you don't source from your own references.

this is what happens when you learn by tracing. ie, you don't learn and your work looks like uncanney alien people in skin suits

>>3001530
That guy is the laughing stock of webtoons. Now the real problem with tracers are the ones that are not so obvious. Like ecstacyhearts author.

Reference = tracing

>>3003883
no reference = reference, tracing = tracing. it's two different actions.

>>3000819
If this is tracing, Norman Rockwell is very bad at it. I tried aligning it with the stools, which looked the most similar, but even those were mispositioned, and the details were off.

As it turns out, our boy Norman is just a real fine artist.

>>3001031
Many professional artists trace and have traced, yeah, but labeling it as some sort of key to success is just ridiculous. How do you explain the success of stylised artists like Mike Mignola here? Tracing is a tool to use in a deadline crunch, and that's it.

>I trace I need to, and I copy every chance I get. Anyone who tells you otherwise is just lying to you.

You are lying to yourself. Tracing as a tool is fine (if sometimes questionable), but if you NEED tracing to draw well, you aren't a good artist, and if you are ever successful, it will be through luck.

>>3005583
That's very amateurish

>>3003782
It look like regular anime to me

>>3000819
Any visual impression, or mental one leading to it, could be considered "tracing".

'Just thought food.

(...image/photo. tracing is lame af tho.)

>>3001456
>>>3001424
>If you're not copying the lines 1:1 it's not "tracing".

tell that to artists in DA, tumblr , HF and FA

>>3003782
Wow ugly people make ugly children who would of thought.

>>3005666
>Any visual impression, or mental one leading to it, could be considered "tracing".

No it cannot, but nice trips you diabolical son of a bitch. Tracing is literally tracing the pencil over the picture you wish to recreate. Eyeballing is NOT tracing.

What's the deal with people on ic insisting on making up their own definitions of well established words?

>>3001885
>Choob
stop confusing thing professional artist do for the ones people on deviant art and tumblr do my gosh ic is filled with idiots http://muddycolors.blogspot.com/2012/07/10-things-i-rememberabout-tracing.html

>>3006463
because they're autistic retards trying to justify tracing

>>3007021
you expect me to go through this persons website why?

>>3005583

It's like you could move different parts of the pictures or something? Tracing's been done since the masters plenty of famous paintings may have been done with camera obscura.

>>3007052
None of it syncs up you trace apologist tracing fag. He referenced it. He's a master

Why do people use the actions of others to dictate what is and isn't acceptable practice? If someone professional or notorious does something it doesn't make it inherently ok or right. It's as if you people want an easy out and are looking for tricks and gimmicks for whatever it is that motivates you.

>>3007208
It's. it even the practice it's the quality of the work. If your goal is to make quality art which should be everyone's goal then you don't accept tracing. People that do it say that do it to cut corners for deadlines, which is the only excuse for it.

>>3003782
so what, normies will eat this shit up anyway

A while back someone posted a link to a video that one of the semi-realism artists like Sakimichan did of their progress to show they didn't trace. Anyone have it?

Whoa that's a wide shoulder in the painting

>>3000819
To anyone wondering, that was not traced

>>3007637
thats balK

>>3007245
you gotta be more specific than that. are you talking about numyumy?

>>3007232
that's really your goal? making god awful shitty art to sell to normies?

>When is right when is wrong?

It's never right unless you're looking to throw together something quickly and cover for a lack of constructional understanding.

OP image isn't traced, but was used as reference - overlay the image in Photoshop and you'll see it's quite different.

Is it bad if I trace over something like Design Doll or Daz 3D but still do anatomy practice on the side?

>>3008113
End result matters. Tracing 3d models you pose yourself is a good choice. But if you have no idea how to draw it will look like garbage anyway. You still need to "fix" the anatomy and know how it make it appealing, and of course draw everything else.

3d models are a great tool to make more solid works and create original poses yourself.

>>3007245
you can simply watch any of her patreon/gumroad videos. she can't do tutorials for shit, but you see clearly that she constructs everything and frequently even changes poses a while into the video.

picture related, it's my sakimichan folder

>>3008133
Can you show your work?
I'm interested to see what you've learned from her, if anything at all. Someone here said her lineart tutorial is decent

>>3008138
I'm mostly trying to pick up rendering techniques/the way she uses brushes (also hopefully eventually hair, since I can't draw hair for shit).

I don't draw too much anime-ish stuff myself, nor does my workflow rely heavily on lineart, so I can't talk too much about that.

I guess she does have a few helpful tips in some of her tutorials (I liked her tutorial on painting clothes), but most of the time she starts something, is informative for ~10 minutes, and then she kinda forgets that she is supposed to teach something and just mutters to herself a bit while drawing normally.

Which is fine, you can learn from simply observing what other people are doing, but yeah, she really isn't good at doing structured tutorials.

>>3001108
Nigga really?

>>3001090
I'm not amazing at art but at this point I only really use refs to make sure things are correctly detailed and proportioned, plus some trickier to draw things like hands and feet. Like, I can look at a picture of someone and draw them in a totally different pose.

Keep in mind that tracing and copying isn't the same thing.

>>3011540
This. I don't see any problem with taking your own photos and roughly sketching over the gesture and pose if it helps you. Especially with perspective and stuff. Like with DesignDoll. As long are you're learning from the experience and not just straight up tracing everything line for line.

>>3007032
please tell me your a fine artist and not an illustrator

>be me
>somewhat self-righteous "all tracing bad"
>try-hard tendencies
>come to shitpost and beat a dead horse
>find decent logical arguments
>find respected artists who use tracing
>ethically sound methods of tracing
>Vilppu's voice whispers from the heavens
>"No rules, just tools."

ic making me question my shitty views

>>3011692
Hey, that's the point of the discussion.

Tracing is a good tool for making quick filler. You dont want to spend ages making original faces for everyone in a crowd around a main character.
For the best effect you need to add to it though. https://twitter.com/spleenal/status/830185752910774272?lang=en

>>3011692
this post shows that you now have a better thought process as an artist when it comes to certain things. It doesn't mean you stop drawing and stop learning and getting better, it just means when you've got a deadline to make, you better use whatever it takes. Along with your understanding of light, color, anatomy, etc, to get the fucking job done on time and with a professional look.

>>3005583
I just did a little reading on Rockwell, on his technique. Here's what I found:
He worked from live models, AND photos.
He was under tight deadlines, most of his work was magazine covers, and had to shave off as much time as possible.
He wasn't concerned with accuracy, as he was feel - he wasn't going to be hung in galleries, he'd change and move things as needed.
He used what is called a "balopticon", or projector. (See photo)
“The balopticon is an evil, inartistic, habit-forming, lazy, and vicious machine. It is also a useful, timesaving, practical, and helpful one. I use it often — and am thoroughly ashamed of it. I hide it whenever I hear people coming.”
— Norman Rockwell"
He also used what is called 'deep focus", where all objects in a scene are at the same focus, unlike a photo.
He worked REALLY big, to get superfine detail.
I own a "balopticon", turns out. It's called a "Prism Artograph", or projector. I've used it to blow up small sketches onto large canvases.
Turns out, our boy Norman was a fine artist - and used tracing and any other method he could to speed up the production time for his work, including tracing.

>>3011751
Deadlines are why I'm softening to the idea. Be nice to shave some time/ stress just tracing out some fingers here and there. Especially when the due dates are so goddamn tight.

>>3011805
That makes me feel a whole lot better about the idea. Until I reach god-level, can't possibly produce the quality/ quantity necessary to pay the rent.

>>3006433
What's HF and FA?

>>3011692
Even top tier artists that works traditionnally have consistency problems when drawings. Murata had that problem in the last OPM chapters he was drawing, he kept giving different sizes to two giant characters.

Someone who would use 3d models to set up the scenes wouldn't have this problem.

>>3011805
>Turns out, our boy Norman was a fine artist

Rockwell wasn't a fine artist, he was an illustrator. It's fine if you like his work, just don't disrespect actual fine artists.

>>3012326
FA is probably furaffinity

>>3001484
>still learning on the job
he got the job 18 years ago

>>3012326
>HF
hentaifoundry

>>3003782
Looks like a scene from "Black Hole Sun" video.

>>3001090
There is a difference between tracing and referencing. Basic tracing is what kids do: put one piece of paper (or digitally, a layer) on top of existing picture and start tracing off those lines.
Tweak some things so it doesn't look like a 1:1 copy
If I look at your picture and immediately know which one you used as "reference", that's not cool (like >>3000886).
Especially true when people claim it was all their hard work and/or idea.

Ideally you should start with learning how to draw thing X by looking at a shitton of pictures of it and drawing those references from all kind of angles.
If you are good you will one day be able to imagine this thing like a 3D model in your head that can be rotated at will. References are then just needed as support to get things right.
It's also best to use several references instead of basically copying one picture.

However, most people who do this as their job do not have the fucking time to properly learn everything/come up with poses on their own/waste time getting a thing just right.
I have friends who work for bigger companies (mostly games) and of course they take pictures of themselves and then trace off their own pose to save time.
It's okay in my opinion because it's their own photo, I dislike it when people use the work of others.