/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

post your work?

I can sell you "the spark" for $450.00 paypal, since you obviously don't have it.

Talent is real.

>Hambrick spent weeks tracking down data for P.G.A. tour stats and running analyses to determine how the pros reached their level of success. The work continued when he returned to Atlanta, and even went on into the first years of his professorship at Michigan State University. But the analyses weren’t turning out quite as expected—training was not explaining nearly as much as it should. So, while the work languished in unpublished state, Hambrick began to focus more and more on the other possible components of expert accomplishment. Of course, training was important—but how important? “I started to ask, Well, wait a second, can these strong claims about the primacy of practice actually hold up—is there the evidence to back it up?”

>The more he researched, the more he concluded that the answer was no. No matter how much he had practiced as a teen-ager, he would never have reached the P.G.A. tour. Of course, he’d known that all along, on some level—after all, he quit golf. People do have natural ceilings to their talent in any given area, and after a certain point their success arose from things other than deliberate practice.

>>2697938
Post before/after photo, nobody believes you, OP.

>>2697961
Fine. Let's get ridiculed before I kill myself.

Notice how there is barely any improvement, maybe none at all. I would be surprised if you even realized which is before and which is after. The one up is before and the one down is after.

>>2697970
What have you been practicing? And how?

Dude, you need to read Perspective made easy and Sketching: The basics, even if the latter goes balls deep into industrial design.

Do drawabox along those ones, then read Loomis Figure drawing (don't bother with FWAP) and Vilppu figure drawing instead of his shitty figure course.

Buy or "Borrow" The premium content of ctrlpaint dot com and do the exercises, specially the Digital Sketching and Basic rendering ones.

Read Scott Robertson's How ro render.

Read Michael Hemmpants Figure drawing design and invention.

As a last note, if you want to draw from the imagination, learn how to use reference.

>"No rules, Just Tools".
Glenn "Needs more twist" Vilppu.

>>2697970
May I ask what exactly you practiced during those 248 hours?

>>2697978
I painted like you see in the pictures above.
>>2697977
I have no will to go on my man. When I read those books I get overwhelmed. I try the things they teach over and over for hours but I just don't get it. I really can put in the hours, it's no problem at all. But I just don't get better. Tell me how talent is not real again.

>>2697980
That's not really practice though man, you have to learn the fundamentals for your artwork to improve fast, if all you do is keep painting with your skillset you'll just build bad habits. Talent does exist but only in the sense that some people learn faster then others, even the talented have to put the hours in to get good.

>>2697949
>mixing up sport and art
>here we go again

i can tell there's a difference. If you can't maybe you're fishing for compliments. If so, get out.

>>2697949
lol one of the most insidious copy pasta i've read. 5/10

>>2697980
Man go back to the basics. Pencil and paper. You are trying to learn how to run before you even learned how to walk.

>>2697982
Yeah but you see my before and after. There are almost no gains. Someone talented could learn this in 2-3 hours. There is no point if I need years to get to the level someone talented gets in a few months.

Also I know I don't practice well. But look at that before and after and tell me I shouldn't have improved a least way more than that after putting in so much time.

>>2697983
Yeah because art ability is based in completely different factors that don't rely on natural born ability, right anon?

>In one study, for instance, Hambrick looked at pianists and measured their working memory, or the ability to keep chunks of information in mind and accessible for short periods of time. In the past, working-memory capacity has been found to be heritable. In his sample, it predicted success even when you accounted for the effects of practice; pianists with better working memory were better at sight reading—and increased practice did not alter the effect. When he looked back to one of the most frequently studied groups in expertise research, chess players, he found that, in addition to working or short-term memory, three more components of cognitive ability—fluid reasoning, comprehension knowledge, and processing speed, all abilities that are, to some extent, heritable—were related to performance. This was especially true of younger and less experienced players. If you’re naturally better, you don’t have to practice quite as much to get good.

>>2697987
Practice doesn't make perfect, perfect practice makes perfect.

Your practice is poor and so your gains are poor, take his >>2697985 advice and start learning the basics, you'll improve much faster.

Also if you were to practice well for years, I'd be surprised if there was anybody who had only been going for a few months could match you.

>>2697970
There are huge improvements.

None of this paintings were made to train something I guess, so it is hard to see.

But in the second you still managed to give a fuck about light and shadow.

There are also some basic tool deficiencies, and your process isn't good, because you have construction lines in your finished paintings and you overpainted finished details with plain color.

Look at some other digital artists and see what they can and can't do. Look at videos showing them painting. Maybe you are trying impossible things, because you don't know the ways to paint to finish and what they allow and what they don't.

>>2697989
Let's be completely objective here. Let's not get feelings in here or personal opinions.

If I was talented I should have figured out stuff while painting. I should have noticed things are wrong and improved them. I should have to handle those tools better. I look at this and there is something wrong and I should have fixed it at the next attempt. I should have naturally figured out things after putting in the hours painting thing after thing.

But the reality is I didn't. I painted on and on and I didn't grasp all those things. Yes, I still believe if I work hard everyday for the next few years some day I will be really good but I just can't deal with my own inability anymore. It's too frustrating to know you have failed in understanding it, in applying it.

>>2697993
Look, if you don't want to study the basics and just want to paint you should at the very least do the ctrlpaint tutorials instead of just painting and hoping something 'clicks', you're not the first painter on this earth, you don't need to figure shit out on your own.

"If I was talented" - this is a terrible mentality and you should just drop it, you don't have to be exceptional to get good.

>>2697970
you did improve you dingus

>>2697980
Failure is OK, man.

My bin is top full with absolute failure. But I keep going.

Just take the bullet and have some discipline. Maybe you need meds, maybe not.

Go check if you need a couple shots of vitamin B. If you feel weak, can't concentrate, can't remember things on the short-term, sore mouth, loss of hair...

If you are afraid of needles, change your diet and get out the basement into the sunlight, but keep going. It's sometimes ridiculous to discover that you need vitamins. When I was 19 I started to lose hair and feel like shit, and finally at age 20 I discovered it was for that.

>>2697988
>here we go again

>>2697988
>>2697949

>ITT Lamarck was right.

>>2697996
We can read all kind of information but how we apply that information lies in our own ability. I read a few books, I just can't apply information. Yes I can improve but that not what I'm saying. Without the talent I will just be the deviantart guy who has small gains to present after a few years.

>>2698002
To me you seem like you're looking for an excuse to stop trying, if you're at the point of frustration that you're looking for some kind of excuse to stop then maybe you should just try something different my man.

>>2697938
bad practice does not make a master

instead, you nuture the next kodyboy555

>>2697993
Huh? You are not objective, you completely misunderstand something basic.

First gains are easy to achieve. Gosh I put down 4 circles and it is a puppy! But beyond that it gets ridiculous hard and complicated. Art isn't some basic school stuff, art is way harder. And you do it without a teacher.

Also, painting is pretty much the hardest topic. You were bound to fail in spectacular ways and not even understand why.

Which is great, because unlike others you crashed into the wall properly.

Lots of anons instead draw something they can easily do halfway good and then can't improve, because their naive view is the same as yours: they should totally get it, and see, they can draw something, so this will happen some day.

But they never learn to learn, they just try around and hope they get a spark.

Young people often assume that they should get a spark, because that always happened in the past and everything was easy. But in reality a lot of people helped them without them even knowing it, which is how they come to this total bad conclusion.

It is no different than in a film when you totally know something is going to happen and it is totally obvious, but hidden, the director actually worked hard to make it obvious for you.

>>2697999
None of this is to say that OP or anyone should stop drawing. If they enjoy it they should continue as long as they want to.

>We cannot predict with accuracy who will become élite in a given field, but we know that genes and environment matter and that we all have different natural peaks that we can reach through application and training. Saying that training is everything may be tempting, but it’s wrong. “One of the criticisms people direct at us is that we’re killing people’s dreams,” Hambrick says. “But I think in fact it’s the contrary: the more we can know about the origins of expertise, including training but everything else, the more we can help people be their best selves.”

>>2698007
I'm already saying I know I can get better by practicing more but I don't know if it's worth it for that big a time investment for those small gains. Say what you want but if you had gains like me after a full month I doubt your mentality would be as positive as now.

We need those milestones. We need those moments where we feel that we got it to keep going, But I don't have either.

Yes I should quit and do something else. I got into fighting games recently but there I suck too even after putting 100 hours in. The world is yours for the taking my main man. I will be here waiting at the bottom.

>op blaming 4chan because his improvement didn't meet his expectations
>op blaming 4chan for his study methods
>op expecting a linear and mathematical improvement based on time spent "studying"
>studying in this case could mean anything
>because op is an ass that didnt say exactly what he did
>expecting to shit out art like a copy machine because he put in a certain amount of time
fuck you op

>>2698015
Why are you expecting to be good at art after one month and good at street fighter after only 100 hours? I don't think you have the right personality to do anything skill-based, perhaps some serious introspection is necessary before you try and pick something else up.

>>2698013
>here we go again

>>2698021
I'm doing art for years now. This month was just to test if I can do it if I put in the work. I obviously can't. After 100 hours I should be at least in silver but I can't even get to ultra bronze. If I was talented that would be the case at least.

>>2698013
You have no clue what any of what is written in the quotes says. You are just collecting quotes and getting one off on your collected "knowledge."

You are like OP in every way.

>>2698024
yeahhh... :/ if only you were talented... huh :( looks like you arent talented though, guess you should find something better to waste your time on, or kill yourself since you know you're #NotGonnaMakeIt xP haha@!

>>2697993

You need some sort of guidance to learn. You learn art by copying from better artists by doing studies of their pictures, and then applying what you've learned to photo studies and models. If you're just working from imagination, you're not adding anything to your skill set, you're just spinning your wheels, nothing new is going in. There's a time and place for imagination work, and that is not at the beginning of your training.

Talent doesn't exist, there's no such fucking thing. You're not learning properly and you have a shitty attitude about studying. You can spend all the time in the world doodling, but it's not studying. You need to learn how to draw properly and you need a better respect for the simple fundamental skills involved in drawing.

Work from books and pictures you find here, focus all of your attention on just getting an accurate drawing. Once you can do accurate drawings the world is your fucking oyster and you can study anything and everything. Fuck paint and colour right now, just draw with a pencil or charcoal. Get the recommended materials in the sticky, work on pictures posted in the beginner thread, work on Keys to Drawing, Right Side of the Brain, etc. Just try to study something. Nothing will click right away, understanding sneaks up on you and one day after however many months, you just surprise yourself with how much you've improved. Post your exercises from books in the beginner thread and people will help you.

Worst comes to worst, spend a hundred bucks on Jeff Watts online drawing course and grind away at that like your life depends on it for a month and see if it helps.

>>2698024
You're just using art as an excuse to wallow in self-pity and it's disgusting, so stop.

>>2698035
>Talent doesn't exist, there's no such fucking thing.

Keep telling yourselves that.
Funny how these kinds of threads keep popping up. Gee, I wonder why

>>2698046
Threads like these keep popping up because people like OP have shit fucking personalities, if not improving at something because your personality prevents you from putting in the effort = lack of talent, then yes it exists but it's not something that can't be changed.

>>2698050
He is right though. This meme that talent is insignificant needs to die already. That working hard and smart is something outside of the realms of talent is so fucking wrong and delusional that it hurts.

>>2698024
Huh? 100 hours?

I get maybe 3 drawings done in that time. And exercises will teach you much less.

Also you are totally overreaching. You are trying to paint when you haven't done very basic art training.

Which normally takes 3-6 months, but doesn't teach you anything about painting from imagination. But you have never done it. After that another 4-5 years under guidance focusing on art every every day. but you have never done that either.

But without that guidance you will have to multiply by 3.

Going the traditional route today is:
- special art courses in high school for the basic stuff
- 3 years training to become an illustrator
- professional work
- learning art in your spare time

Or:

- special art courses in high school for the basic stuff
- drawing for 2-3 years on your own with a small job on the side
- 3 years art school if you are good enough to be taken
- 5-15 years self employed and mastering on your own

Or any of that mixed.

>>2698054
I accept that talent exists in the sense that some people have personalities that allow them to grasp things easily and grind for hours without a care, but that's determined by the environment you were raised in and not genetics, it's the reason why so many Asians are gods at what they do, they're products of their environments; also people can change, somebody who had a bad personality for developing skills can be taught how to change themselves.

If you dont advance then you are not studying properly. What do you expect fag?

>>2698058
You mean mentality and not personaltiy. Also mentality is only one aspect, intelligence is another and intelligence itself is an incredible complex subject. Intelligence can't be trained or changed. Mentality can be bypassed by habits but there is a high chance of relapse.

>>2698046
Congratulations on missing the topic, idiot. OPs problem isn't talent, his problem is much more basic than that. That you can't see that shows you got the same problem as him.

You call the problem talent, but it isn't.

But that would actually take some work to figure out and not quote dumping.

Rock beats scisors this can apply to hardwork it beats talent heh.

>>2698062
Intelligence can be trained, the majority of intelligent people grew up in an environment that helped train them to be intelligent and habits can be trained to be gained and lost.

>>2698058
>>2698050
I agree that OP does have some kind of depression related issues, but let's be real here. Talent isn't a fairy tale. Studying something for X amount of years doesn't guarantee anything more than your abilities allow. If you spend the next 10 years studying music and playing cello, you would definitely be on-par or slightly better than the average player, but you will not become the next Yo-Yo Ma or have Mozart level composition

>>2698066
So what you're saying is that if you had a shitty enviroment to grow up in you're fucked.

>>2698065
Hard work is talent. Checkmate autists.

>>2698069
Ah but that's because those people approach their discipline differently then the person who studied it for 10 years, as I said talent exists in the sense that some people have bad personalities for developing skills, which is a result of their upbringing and experiences not genetics.

>>2698071
Not necessarily, but most likely yes, you can see this in the real world all the time, it's very rare for somebody from a bad background to become exceptional, usually when it does happen it's a result of some kind of good external influence.

>>2698069
You are talking more out of your ass. what a surprise.

>>2698078
I'm sorry that reality is hard for you to accept.

But I encourage you to prove me wrong, anon. When you finally "git gud" and make millions from your art, please do an interview and reference this thread and how talent is bullshit. I will wait for you.

>>2698078
Not him but you should just shut the fuck up. Talent deniers are the worst pieces of shit on this board. It's literally like hearing arguments that fuck your opinion up but you still keep on protecting it and shitposting just so you can win the internet argument.

People are completely different and not equal at all so shut the fuck up. Working hard and working smart are things that are given to you trough genetics and the enviroment.

>>2698085
Even if he did that you would just dismiss it by saying he is talented.

'Talented' is something people are called after they prove they are exceptional, even if they only became skilled from decades of studying and practice.

>>2698086
People are not equal at all you're right, and if anyone tries to deny that they should be ignored however "working hard and working smart" have nothing to do with genetics and although genetics can give you advantages in other fields (sports especially), unless you have something seriously genetically wrong like fucked up hands or eyes, genetics won't prevent somebody from being talented in art, if you're not talented in art you have a shit personality likely as a result of your upbringing.

>>2698092
>"working hard and working smart" have nothing to do with genetics

>he is not thinking at art/drawing 24/7
>he does not draw while dreaming-
>he does not read books to complete the study process
>he does not repeat the same stuff x10000000000 times until getting some improve
>he gives up so easy
>he does not learn from other artists
>he takes art as a hobby
>he dont have a goal
>he dont study color theory
>he dont do shit
>he crypost in 4chen

Ahh that casual fresh smell.

>>2698095
Working hard can be taught and working smart can be taught and both can easily be drilled into the minds of young children, how exactly does it have anything to do with genetics?

>>2698096
>It's another episode of posting empty words of which none even remotely represent reality
Though you are free to post your art to prove me wrong,

>>2698097
Working smart can be learned only in a linear way. Once your pattern doesn't apply you're fucked and this happens all the time in art since progression is anything but linear.

>>2697993
From my experience that's not something you learn right away. Keep drawing and analazing high quality work and your perception of a drawing's quality will improve.

I think the step is having several very good artists as a goal. Like that you should never stagnate because you'll keep drawing until you get as good as them. The second part is wanting to get good because there are stuffs you want to draw.

>>2698095
People like to believe that their genetics are holding them back so that they can have an excuse not to put in the effort, this is a prime example of somebody with a shit personality likely in some part developed by observing their parents or siblings, as a general rule of thumb if somebody is making excuses they will never be talented because they have a shit personality.

>>2698104
Working smart is primarily developed throughout childhood and adolescence, not to say it can't be developed later on, but most talented individuals learned how to learn early on.

>>2698085
Nothing to prove here, accept reality that you are a shit person, posting their shit view on the internet because irl they have lost all their friends for being total idiots.

>>2698086
>We don't need no experts
fuck of britfag

>your personality is shit
>kill yourself for getting depressed
>you really suck as a human being
You preach to stay positive all the time but say this kind of shit at the same time? Enough.

>>2698111
I don't recall preaching to stay positive, I was giving OP advice on how to improve his art and he demonstrated how shit his personality was by completely ignoring it and continuing his self-loathing, if that's not a shit personality what is?

>>2698112
Post your art to show your advice holds any merit and actually worked out for you. Anyone can write his conclusions down he came to trough logical thinking and combining all the opinions and advice he heard troughout his life, but this shit is all empty, only actual experience and skill shows the truth.

Argumentum a priori is empty and worthless.

>>2697938
>>2697970
You're not going to see life changing gains after only a month, OP. Just keep doing your best, spend as much time as you need to make things look right, and learn as much as you can. The secret to gittin gud is making gud a habit, no matter how long it takes. It's about discipline and FEELS.

>>2697949
None of us ever disagreed talent wasn't a factor. But you either want it or you don't. If you're talented you're never going to make it over someone who actually works smart.

>>2698114
I would argue that using logical reasoning and parroting the opinions of successful artists with actual experience and skill is only moderately less valuable then hearing it from the artists themselves, if advice is good then the advice is good regardless of who it is you hear it from and I'm sure a sensible human being such as yourself would agree?

>>2698117
t. millenial without an ounce of skill or experience

>>2698117
Your logical reasoning is clearly less valuable.
The stuff you parrot is also pointless, because you see it through your world view and value it by your standards.
And nobody wants to be called sensible human by you that badly that they would agree with your bullshit.

>>2698125
Logical reasoning is invaluable, if you disagree some serious introspection is recommended.

Parroting is the act of saying exactly what you heard, so your own world view and values do not come into play, good advice is good advice regardless of the source and you can use logical reasoning, as well as comparing advice from different sources to determine if advice is good.

I was giving him the benefit of the doubt by calling him a sensible human being but it seems I was naive, it's quite sad.

>>2698098
Empty words?

Just keep drawing op thats all.Use whatever you want to advance. There are this guy RossDraw he post his videos and explain in majority the process of composition and color. Artgem is one and its ok. Fill your pc with good art. Study books>analyze>draw>learn>repeat. Follow professionals in art, see his shit and learn. Its like every shit like making a chair you need knowlege theres is not a Muse or something.

Its simple: Practice ultil you die. Born again and repeat. Use social networks to connect to other well-prepared artist. If you follow tumblr fags thats your end.

What are you waiting? some miracle ?

Work!, being an artist its not only getting stuck in a stupid head sheet exercise. Calm down. Relax. But keep you head in reality and work hard.

And pic related its and old study i was 18 or something. People its just dump waiting someone show them to see if studyng art and reading books do the gain.

I was reading some books even the meme book from Loomis when i was 15 and taugh me some good shit (at that time i never knew that book was a meme). Some people got in his bookshelf drawings books and they dont read them thats awful man.

>>2698111
Sometimes people who don't have the motivation need a little kick in the butt to get going, some people don't realize its more complicated when it comes to depression

>>2698128
It doesn't hold value because it follows your logical reasoning and not objective logical reasoning. You don't know what's good advice and what isn't since you don't have any experience, you just simply parrot like an idiot.

You're no different than some housewife who read some diet tips in a trashy journal. In a world where barely anyone is talking from experience but everyone is using a priori to make a point you're a prime example of what's wrong with it.

>>2698096
C-Chinese anon?

>>2697949
Talent is real but it's not the deciding factor. There are fast learners (aka "talent) and slow learners, but they both can still learn. People use the talent argument to try to validate being a worthless lazy piece of shit. Hard work isn't enough, you need smart work too. You can "practice" all you want but if you aren't doing the right exercises, you'll never get the results you're looking for.

>>2698158
No, sorry. Im a Venememezuela anon.

>>2698153
Logical reasoning is objective by it's very nature, it can't be subjective since it's just observing facts, you should think things through before you type it down.

You just compared my advice to information from a trashy journal, yet for all you know it was a direct quote from Michelangelo, the point is the source is irrelevant and all that matters is the information, you should be able to determine whether or not information is true or not using logical reasoning, in the case that it is too complicated for that you should compare that information to other similar information preferably that has been peer-reviewed in order to be certain if it can be trusted.

>>2698128
>Logical reasoning is invaluable, if you disagree some serious introspection is recommended.
Indeed, it is, but yours is shit. if you actually believe it isn't then you have to do at least some Philosophy 101 and pass it. And I am talking academic 101, not whatever passes in your high school for it or you schooling yourself.

>Parroting is the act of saying exactly what you heard, so your own world view and values do not come into play
It comes into play because you decide to say it.

>good advice is good advice regardless of the source and you can use logical reasoning
You assume the advice is good, but you don't have the experience to prove it. Your logical reasoning is flawed because you don't know enough, because a lot of knowledge can only be acquired from your own experience, it cannot be acquired from outside sources. If you want to find out if something works, you need to try it out yourself. And then the only thing you have found out is if it works for you. It doesn't make it good advice for someone else.

>as well as comparing advice from different sources to determine if advice is good.
that is useful

>>2698162
>You can "practice" all you want but if you aren't doing the right exercises, you'll never get the results you're looking for.

So which is the case for why an overwhelming majority of the people who post on /ic/ haven't improved?

Are people here not practicing?
or
Is it that no one does the "right exercises"? -- despite all the talk of grinding, countless art book and video threads, sticky, etc.

>>2698166
>You just compared my advice to information from a trashy journal, yet for all you know it was a direct quote from Michelangelo
Then michelangelo said some serious bullshit, simple conclusion.

>>2698167
As I said here >>2698167 logical reasoning is merely the observation of facts and isn't related to subjective opinion in anyway, I have no idea why you decided to bring up philosophy.

It doesn't come into play, all that matters is the information.

If the information is accurate then it is accurate, if you read the information and determine it is unlikely to be accurate then compare it to other information to help you determine if it is trustworthy.

>>2698166
And yet you hold the opinion you speak as truth because you use your own logicial reasoning and not a real objective measurement. You're the same as any 4chan sperg who will defeat his opinion to death since he used his special snowflake reasoning to come to that conclusion.
>source is irrelevant and all that matters is the information
What load of horseshit. The source is everything. A good artist may also not necessary give good advice. That's because not many people are really self observant. That's how you get people who explain things with feelings and shit.

>>2698172
Art advice of any kind is not scientifically proven for that to work you sperg.

>>2698173
I hold the opinion I speak the truth because I base my opinions on evidence and facts and not my emotions which if I hazard a guess you yourself do.

I'll recant my statement that a source is irrelevant, it is relevant however information should not just be discarded if it is logically speaking likely to be true, instead it should be peer-reviewed and compared to other information of a similar nature.

>>2698170

/ic/ fags does not practice and are just blahblah and they dont even do the right exercises its simple.

>tfw I work hard but don't have natural talent

>>2698174
What do you mean by "scientifically proven" assuming something has evidence that it is has a high probability of success (which my advice does, since my advice was literally study the fundamentals before moving on to painting, which nearly every good artist did aka there is evidence to support my claim) then you can observe those facts and determine it is likely good advice, yes?

>>2698177
talent isn't real anon. you'll get good eventually if you keep working hard. just give it time... a decade or so. trust me. everyone can be a great artist if they keep trying. even if you notice you're not improving, don't let anyone tell you different.

>>2698095
>Eating like a pig and getting fat have nothing to do with genetics.

Open your fridge. There's your genes, fag.

>>2698179
The only fact here is that you have no skill at all but gave lots of advice regarding all kind of matters to make someone a better artist inclusive mental and emotional matters.

>>2698181
>talent isn't real
>a decade or so
this is bullshit

I put in just as much time as others and they improve way faster than me

it must be because they're talented

I wish I had talent

I wish I had the spark

fuck this unfair world

>>2698183
I don't believe you have any knowledge of my skill level at all and are just making baseless assumptions to buttress your argument, I only gave a small amount of advice and it was very typical advice basically 'work on your fundamentals', apparently he needed it since he spent a full month doing nothing but doodling and then proceeded to complain about his slow improvement rate.

The only mental advice I gave was to participate in some serious introspection which is and I'm sure you would agree something that everybody should do?

>>2698186
no anon. talent isn't real. all those people who you see progressing better than you were probably born rich or grew up in really great neighborhoods that had great schools. your upbringing was probably not as good than theirs but you can still make it if you keep trying hard! don't let anyone tell you different. give it lots of time and effort you'll see results.

>>2698186
Sad you were a troll. I sadly wasted my time when I could have given someone advice for real.

>>2698187
My observation is that the general skill level on /ic/ is so shit because almost everyone uses second hand advice instead talking from actual experience.

If you ever get out of being shit tier I will appreciate your advice, anon.

>>2698186
Life isn't fair get over it you stupid frog. Other people also weren't born autistic like you either. If you only care about doing things just to be the best at them then kill yourself now because you'll never be the best at anything.

>>2698193
If you have such a low opinion of /ic/ and don't like receiving advice from anybody but industry professionals then why are you even here?

>>2698196
The same as everyone else here. It's art related so I can procrastinate practicing art without feeling too bad.

>>2697977
>don't bother with FWAP

Literally k*ll urself, FWAP is best book

>>2697938
>>2698170
It's because /ic/ fundamentally preaches the wrong study methods. No one seems to understand that you shouldn't be taking on certain things at certain levels.

Just take a look at every beginner thread. It's filled with photo-refs. Something beginners shouldn't be touching, at all. Beginners see everyone else copying photos- so that's what they do. And then that's all they do. Before you know it, they have hours and hours put into a study method so inefficient and virtually useless to them at their stage of skill that they end up with sunk cost fallacy and either continue down that route or they give up.

Now browse the sketchbooks of most people on conceptart (or any place like it) who have a lot of work to show. There are many examples of people who have spent years doing nothing but full BW studies of photos and over that course of time they improve very little, if at all.

Compare them to those who started off studying line, shapes, form, and perspective. Instead of copying a photo 1:1, they break down the parts that are confusing, they don't try to get it perfect or make a pretty picture but actually work to understand what's going on. They take things apart, then put them back together. They implement repetition, something crucial to all studying in all fields by drawing the same thing over and over again. They do many works from imagination to try and solidify what they're trying to learn. They study as much from life as they can.

Some of them improve more in a few months than those who studied the photos for years. They consistently stay out of their comfort zones. They work on their CORE issues before diving into things that are just too much to start with.

Another reason people don't seem to improve is because we only see what others show us, we don't know what's behind the scenes, and we don't know how much other anons are lying or exaggerating.

Not everyone actually studies every day. Or week. Or even month. Most don't even draw.

>>2698209
You can say kill here, this is an adult board. Which probably means you shouldn't be here, but whatevs.

>>2698219
Oh wow, is it l*terally an ad*lt board? I h*d no idea!

>>2698221
poor girl, she's trying to find her nose but it's too tiny for her to ever see

>>2698218
>most don't even draw

Mystery solved

Why aren't you lads painting

This is why you aren't good

>>2698224
Occam's razor wins again

Wait so you're telling me there is a wrong way to practice? The general opinion on /ic/ was always that time is the most important thing.

>>2698238
No anon, you gotta grind. It doesn't matter where the hours come from. Just keep drawing and drawing.

>>2698242
Now I realize this was always a strategy to kill future competition. Artists just don't want other artists to succeed. I feel like a fool now.

>>2698246
Take advantage of it now anon, learn how to learn efficiently. There's a reason why some of the most successful and skilled people out there had dedicated personal mentors, it's because all they had to worry about was following directions and they could trust their masters to lead them in the right direction. You're gonna have to be your own master for now- just make sure to never take all of your information from a single source.

>>2698246
The less time you spend here among fanboys and aspiring Xerox machines, and the more time you spend learning from actual working artists, the better off you will be. Watch YouTube videos, read blogs, look at how the Russians and Chinese study drawing, etc.

>>2698238

>Wait so you're telling me there is a wrong way to practice?

Yes and no.

There are better and worse ways to practice, which can depend on your goals.

All practice is mileage, and mileage is important. Even bad practice is better than no practice, but if you wanna get your bang for your buck you need to be smart about what you're practicing, why you're practicing it, and what your goal is.

>>2698222
Are you one of those tumblr people who "improve" on anime screencaps by drawing enormous noses and giving them "realistic" body types and hairy legs?

>>2698262
That's why you should work with a notebook like Leonardo Da Vinci. Write down how you practice and how you can optimize your practice to reach your goals quicker.

>>2698225
They don't have talent, it doesn't matter how hard they practice it's gonna take them a decade anyway.

>>2698264
no, i was making fun of how her eyes were focused

>>2698267
Source on this information? Sounds interesting

>>2698299
"we have an unparalleled set of documents which illuminate his thought processes, interests, and deepest beliefs. We have access to hundreds of pages of his notes, jottings, sketches, doodles, and musings, including lists of books he read and even scraps of financial records"

The book is based on those. We are very lucky to have so many records from that genius.

>>2697977
We have to put a definitive path on this site man, some say do fun with a pencil some say don't, do this, do that, DON'T DO THISSSS, Really, what should be the final and modern path to git gud

>>2698238
Yes. You have to set goals for yourself. Realistic ones and work in baby steps. Don't tackle too much shit at once. Break down the fundamentals of drawing to their base form and becoming comfortable with those base concepts. Things like the understanding of line, line weight, and shapes are very important. All lines in a drawing have a purpose and demonstrate something, you have to understand and become comfortable with what their purpose is.

>>2698182
This

For those faggots memespouting "talent is real" should feel nice to blame external factors into being such undisciplined, lazy pieces of shit.

>I can't get fit. Muh genetics
>I can't draw. Muh genetics.

Drawing is 99% practice,1% Using references.

If you can't follow a schedule, or have an ounce of discilpine, you're a lazy faggot and anyways your genes are inferior.

>>2698186
Stop drawing from imagination, nigger.

>>2698320
>Drawing is 99% practice,1% Using references.
What? How do people come up with bullshit percentages like that?

>>2698326
>How do people come up with bullshit percentages like that?
By not actually know how to draw, so they can't give realistic percentages.

>>2698320
>>2698326
>>2698328


The percentage may have come out of anons ass, but he's not completely wrong- or at least the idea was not born from nothing.

The idea comes from "1 part theory, 50 parts practice" suggested in the book "Creative Perspective for Artists and Illustrators" by Ernest W. Watson, the same person Marshall Vandruff references in his teachings.

>>2698330
I bet most people on here do it the other way around.

>>2697949
OH. MY. GOD. Who gives a shit? Either you want it and you'll work for it and eventually succeed - or you don't want it, you won't work for it and no amount of talent can save your ass.
Either way, talent plays no role in the way you should be thinking, it doesn't even concern you. Stop spreading this meme, it only gives d/ic/s more excuses.
Talent this, talent that, this is how Krenz painted when he was 4 years old, what the fuck.

>>2698330
Post your work

>>2698339
>read 5 books from the sticky
>do one photocopy
>Wew i've been drawing for 8 years and there's no improvement
90% of /ic/

>>2697949
>Golf
>The same as art

That's not true in the slightest.
One is a physical sport, but the other can be taught rather easily. There are key genetic factors, balance, strength, hand-eye co-ordination, etc that can cap your progress.

There's almost nothing of the sort when it comes to artistic "talent"

>>2698400
>>2697949
In my opinion, art is almost as logical as mathematics.

>>2698400
>>2698401
I would even go so far as to say that every single artistic genius throughout history was just a literal genius that was raised with a pencil/brush in their hand.

They picked up concepts, executed them, and they did well.

They still had to go out, draw, and put pencil to paper. I don't understand the talent meme. I drew like all of the other children when I was in 5th grade. "Wow, you're really talented!" is the result of pure practice.

>>2698363
>anon posts an explanation for an idea and a helpful resource for those who might have sparked a personal interest
>post your work XDDDDDDD
kys

>>2698418
>being this upset from an anonymous user on an anonymous image board

>>2698434
>using anonymous as your excuse

>>2697938
>1 month
there is your problem
I have been doing the same since may and barely improved.
It sucks but it's the only way

>>2698470
Post before and after.

>>2698442
>still butt hurt
maybe take some time off the computer, anon ;)

>>2698326

You sound like drawing isn't simply about practice and drawing from reference.

>>2698328

>Taking internet percentages seriously.

When did /ic/ become this retarded?

I'm pretty sure you're the easiest board to b8. Even easier than /pol/.

>>2698209
>TAKE A GOOD LOOK AT THIS PAGE

Where is my shit? I lost it.

>>2698544

>>2697938

>practice mathematics 8h every day for a month
>barely get any better

See how ridiculous what you say is?

How do you learn mathematics? Well, in school it was by making exercises until you got fundamental formulas learned by heart.

You know though also from classes that some grind is often unnecessary. It serves no point to make 10 more same-ish exercises. You need at some point challenge yourself to get better. Get problems from mathematical olympiad and work on those for a long, long time until you'll get breakthrough and figure the rest out.

In mathematics you want to learn to learn concepts and techniques, BUT also and most importantly - a way of thinking, a way of solving problems. To develop a process of mathematical thinking.

You rarely think about it when learning in school, but actually there's a lot you do before even trying to solve the problem - you write out all the known data, the solution you seek, you categorize problem (oh, it's a set of linear equations, polynomial of the nth order etc.), then you confront it with the similar problems you encountered in the past (oh, I often used de L'Hospital rule for limits, can I apply it for that also? what are requirements for that?) or study more about the topic you know less about (huh, geometry problem, let's read more about those cubes)

Similar thing goes with art. You can make 50 same-ish head construction exercises, but instead it could be more productive to make 20 and then 10 more with extreme angles and 10 more with heads attached to neck and collarbones or rather 3 cyllinders representing those.

And you know that you'll really make progress after spending a lot on bigger piece that utilizes the knowledge you have and don't have - when you'll have to learn how to reference values properl or measure and keep proper dimensions in scale.

If it's difficult in math and you usually need a teacher for that, then imagine it's similarly difficult in art without such strict distinctions.

>>2698553
kek

>>2698616

Moreover, consider this - mathematics is really broad subject. Most mathematicians specialize heavily, people who are into topology don't necessairly get involved with probability. Sure, to learn analysis at higher level you have to know calculus, algebra, basics of topology and other shit, but you don't learn everything. You can stick to studies of real functions and don't involve yourself much with complex numbers/spaces.

It's just like in art. People who make comics can focus on panelling more than making complete, heavily rendered illustrations. On the other hand someone might want beautiful and complete compositions instead of multitude of different character concepts.

Art is like that, like learning mathematics. At the beginning you'd need to learn some fundamentals: stuff from high-school, calculus, some algebra and probability with statistics. But at some level, you can't do anything, you choose to specialize and go into that thing.

And you get better by solving more and more complex and specialized problems. Sakimichan got best in her niche and nobody else/very few people can do what she can in that time frame and attracting such money and following. On the other hand there's probably no one who can do such big and unique
(more like cluttered, amirite?) compositions with brushpen like Kim Jung Gi.

So remember: if you are a n00b you really will feel like not doing any progress if you are directionless. That's why lessons are good because they set you in some rhytm, give you some boundaries and fixed material. BUT you need to challenge yourself with those "mathematical olympiad" tier exercises, do "mathematical proofs" to develop a way of thinking and your own style. Actually DO the image/painting you'll spend 50h on.

Since there seem to be a lot of smart people here I have a question. What fucking book do I start with? Give me a straight answer for once /ic/

>>2698636
>>2698616

Oh and to my rant, as others said:

There's no strictly a bad way to practice. Solving 100 more simple Riemann integrals without special functions won't harm you and the knowledge you'll gain from those probably won't vanish.

But will be worth it sitting so long at those without putting a bar a bit higher? You aren't losing anything - besides time.

It's delicate manner - to know when to move on, don't do it too soon or too late. Or when to move back when you are trying to progress too fast, to re-learn fundamentals through and through.

>>2698640

"Keys to Drawing" by Dodson. You'll hear "Fun with Pencil" by Loomis, but it's actually kinda bad for absolute beginners, also worst written out of all Loomis books.

Go first with Dodson, jump to Loomis after it and start with "Figure Drawing" or "Heads & Hands".

Realistically what kind of progress can you expect in a month as a total beginner if you practice 8 hours a day? If you could not even draw 3D geometric shapes from imagination what could you manage in a month? Would you be able to already make some okay sketches?

>>2698655
Well realistically as a total beginner you wont have a clue how to spend 8 hours working and would most likely spend the first month building proper habits.

But assuming you flipped a switch and just started right off with 8 hours of drawings a day yeah you could get really good in a month. A lot of people though take years sometimes just to build the proper habits to do 8 hours of proper practicing.

>>2698676
What do you mean by habits? You just follow the exercises in the book or not?

>>2698681
Books work best as supplements to your current skill and you only get from them what you are currently capable of.

see >>2696864 grinding exercises isn't that useful

>>2698725
>Books work best as supplements to your current skill

What if I have 0 skill? Like I can't draw a straight line. If I draw a cube it all looks wavy. I couldn't rotate a simple geometric shape on paper.

I don't really want to be able to make drawings per se. My main goal is 3D character modeling and for that I need a good understanding of anatomy.

>>2698728
do the draw-a-box exercises and that will help your line ability and understanding 3d forms. and the feng zhu line exercise's. along with some perspective stuff ,then once you can do that do anatomy.

>>2698728
Well then you could just use anatomy studies for that bridgman would be the best book that I know of. It would only be useful if you apply it to what you want to do though.

>>2698011
>kodyboy555
Lmao what the fuck did you make me loop up. What is this awful shit. He's been drawing since 2006? Why hasn't anyone told him to stop yet?

>>2699663

It's autism, anon, they don't understand being told to stop.

I actually feel bad for him, does anyone have that picture of the whiteboard in his bedroom?

>>2698655
Here's my first month:

http://irishopp.tumblr.com/post/150564870029/gallery-0-6-margin

1-2 hours a day. I focused on shapes and values from the start.

Improved very slowly mostly due to never putting in sufficient time (later one, didn't even hit one hour a day until design school forced me to)

>>2699663
>>2699717
You guys keep always forgetting that not everyone is drawing to improve or to become a professional some day. Are they lower human beings for not trying to improve? Absolutely. But chances are they're barely drawing anyway.

Remember, OP.

You could draw a skull every day for 5 years, and at the end of those 5 years you'll draw a mean skull, but you're not magically going to be able to draw a hand.

Learning the fundamentals are key because they're the building blocks for basically all artistic pursuit. Training your fundamentals means you can apply them broadly, it's high utility. You have a toolbox, that's basically the point of doing it.

Take it from me, I've spent one and a half years doing like 90% photostudies, and if you take the photo ref away it really, really fucking shows.

>>2699717
yeah he has actual autism. he said that in one of the comments i was reading.

>>2699730
I'm in the process to learn how to copy since it's definitely a necessary fundamental skill in really learning reference effeciently and being able to include it into your visual library.

>>2697993
Are you trying to make a living from painting? Because you don't seem to enjoy it very much. Maybe you should do something you hate less.

Not that I'm one to talk mind you. I've tried to get good at certain video games and literally lost my voice from yelling and cursing at the monitor because of how bad I was doing despite my best effort (Super Meat Boy comes to mind). Of course, that was mainly related to work stress and I was just venting all my misery onto something relatively safe.

>>2699735

You can make use of other fundamentals while studying a ref, you know. Not every copy from reference needs to be a 1 for 1 replication. Learn construction and it'll do you many favors in copying a reference.

Also, building a visual library via photostudies is 20% important and 80% meme, most of /ic/ (myself included) do it because it's not very cognitively straining and gets appealing results. If you're brainlessly copying pictures it won't do shit for your visual library. I used my skull example because I drew a fuckton of skulls, but I kept copying photos rather than actually doing the difficult work of deconstructing and reconstructing, analyzing, drawing from imagination, simplifying, modifying, etc. At the end of it a guy who had done all that for like 10 hours probably had "skull" cemented in his visual library better than I did after a year of photostudies, and he would've trained more skills in the process.

The photostudies can be good practice, but you'll improve your rendering skills more than anything else.

>>2699743
Really just pushing trough because if I can't even copy reference how can I make any decent drawing at all? I was doing the opposite of you, Studying perspective with boxes and other simple shapes all day. Constructing complex shapes with simple shapes and shit like that.

That's because everytime I need to copy reference I get scared and sweat a lot. I just feel really bad when my proportions end all fucked up and things like that. Now I'm really forcing myself to copy things. Building a visual library is not a singular process anyway. You learn form and a few textures and all you need after that is the details.

>>2699743
>Not every copy from reference needs to be a 1 for 1 replication
Now you tell me. It's been ten years, anon.

>>2697938
stop practicing the same shit and do draw shit that you have zero knowledge in


A.K.A. DRAW THE BORING SHIT!!!!

>>2697980
>Guys why didn't I improve after 200 hours
>How did you practice? Which fundamentals?
>I made the same mistake over and over again
More proof that anyone talking about 'talent' is too retarded to ever amount to anything.

>>2697977
>list a bunch of memes
>get doubles

>>2697970
You improved! If this is all freehand, that's okay improvement in the span of one month. It doesn't look like you're using much reference though. Also, the subject matter is kinda lame. The dolphin's nice, but the mines..? Also composition sucks.

It seems like you're brute forcing your way to getting better by just busting out pictures. Instead, you should learn the basic steps of constructing a nice image. How to compose. How to perspective. How to basic lighting. With those you can create nice looking images even before you learn to draw the details. But before that, the most important is drawing form. How to draw a 3d object. Once you learn that, it becomes pretty straight forward.

Forget about talent. Who cares? You want to learn, there is a process to learning, so do that. There are steps to drawing. It's like creating anything. You don't start throwing all the pieces together. You take steps.