/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

After-the-Lock

>>2639209
About to be bored at work; gibs the pre-roll

I rolled a long time ago but never actually got around to doing it until now..

>>2640646
Very well done. I really like the inclusion of "dress anatomy", however one thing I will say is that I feel that the tear in the dress and the leg it's exposing create sort of an uncomfortable tangent down to the knee and the wireframe itself has somewhat muddled perspective. . Also it appears her knee is a bit too high on her leg as well, for that matter, with her gooch to knee being just over a single head-length tall contrasted with her lower leg being no less than two. Keep working fampaisano.

Rollerino

>>2639209
rolando

raoul

Think I might have broken her neck but I'm getting sleepy... Will fix later

Im gonna re roll

>>2639209
rolling and bumping

>>2642479
Charming.

I feel like the lower legs/calves or whatever are a bit small though. Also consider the prominence on the female figure of the pelvic region. It looks like her legs are just attached straight into her obliques or something like that. The tail looks like it's coming out of her butthole, perhaps raising it a bit so it's a little higher up on the sacrum. Finally, we probably shouldn't be able to see that gluteal or whatever that protrusion it is you'd drawn above the tail either considering the angle of the pelvic region.

gnillor

I like this, roll

Rll

Roll

Roll

Rewl

>>2639242
Cat princess.
Also roll.

started a long time ago and picked it back up

>>2647404
These are all really charming, do you post them anywhere?

>>2647432
Yes, i do! In here :U
I also have a sketchbook thread on Sycra's (blessed be the name of our prophet) forum: http://sycra.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=18883
I thought about getting myself a tumblr blog or something, since it seems like all the cool kids use it instead of DA. Which i actually have too: http://liarjohnny.deviantart.com/

Rolled imp princess in the last thread and completely forgot about it.
Oh well.

rolling again

>>2639209
Roll

>>2647473
that's kawaii AF mate

>>2639209
rolling

roll

>>2639209
rolando

>>2639244
Gonna redo this again. Not satisfied

roll

>>2647404
Nice as usual. I could be wrong but her stage-left arm appears a bit short. Remember the gooch/wrist rule.

>>2647429
Looking pretty good, I like the snek hair in particular.

Consider showing a slightly greater depression in between the ribs, obliques and gluteal/asis area to give a little more curvature to Froge's body. Maybe increase the size of the Frog's head by 5-10% or so and see if that looks right to you also. I suppose considering the subject matter, my interpretation that the Frog is young and not just a smaller adult character could be off.

>>2647468
Her nose appears to be caught somewhere between profile view and 3/4, remember your guidelines. Also, the curvature of her arm makes it look like that's just her humerus wrapped in skin or something like that, and her arm/gauntlet thingy is completely flat. Keep workin'.

>>2647473
Cute sketch.

>>2647843
Looks good mane. It took me a bit to notice but you are tilting the features of her face down mostly consistently, I was going to ask you to watch out for that ear being lower than the other but taking it all in it doesn't look as off as I'd thought.

>>2647972
Nicely done. One thing I'd keep an eye out for is the proportions of those arms. The arm furthest away from the viewer looks considerably larger than its nearer counterpart.

The die is cast

rolly

roll

roll

hellyeahhellyeahhellyeah

>>2651159

She makes me so sad in a "puppy with no legs" way. I feel so sorry for retard (deformed) princess.

>>263920
rolll

ROLLAN ROLLAN ROLLAN, RAWHIDE

Rolling I suppose

roollllleed

Reoll

>>2639237
+lamia princess
+frog princess

>>2652162
Nicely done. One noteworthy thing; assassin princess' stage-left arm looks proportionally larger than her stage-right, in spite of the latter being nearer to the viewer.

>>2652250
This is pretty top-shelf pixel sh*t my n*gga. I hope you're practicing animation on the side, too. I think your work has a lot of appeal, not to mention commercial potential. Don't be afraid to put yourself out there if you haven't already.

>>2652287
Thanks, not really interested in animation or video games though. I make most of my income with paintings/murals/posters.

roll

>>2639209
role

>>2652438

not loving this.. taking a break

>>2639209
ROLL

Ghost Princess and PRINCESS GET!

(Thread quality has decreased) -10.

roll

reroll

rell

>>2639209
rolleringus

>>2653933
Goddamnit I hate choosing, reroll

rollan'

>>2639209
Roll

Rewl.

>>2639209
le roll

>>2639209
roll

>>2655129
reroll

>1000 "le roll" posts
>3 drawings
>nobody uses random.org
Why do people just treat these threads like some "roll a waifu" thread on /b/?

Pic related

>>2655188
Related to what?

>>2655189

dude

http://megaman.wikia.com/wiki/Roll

>>2655180
These threads normally have a pretty good post to image ratio compared to many other threads on /ic/ tbqph, not even counting the 15-20 that they're kicked of with. This thread's been a little slow so far but we'll see what happens.

>>2655190
>omg dude u don't know megaman characters what r u autistic or?

>>2647843
Alright, rolling again :)

rollan

>>2655263
cute pose, nice expression anon

>>2655359
thanks :)

62

ROLLING

>>2653153
awesome

>>2639209
roll

>>2639209
roll la putin de sa lmrere

Rollerino

>>2656358
Not that happy with this, tho only a quick sketch. Amazon princess

Rort

>>2652577
Hair doesn't look like it's attached to head, at least not in perspective with the rest of the skull. Looks like the pelvis pretty much envelopes the ribcage as well-needs breathing room

>>2653538
Fun style, pretty colors. Hope you're pushing yourself otherwise though.

>>2655263
>sideboob

Unf.

>>2653153
>>2655510
Both of you strive on being cognizant of the comparative proportions of the things you're drawing. Both pieces have one massive hand and a relatively minuscule one accompanying it. Keep workin' fambinos.

>>2656371
Kind of reminds me of this for some reason

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZNvjaJZVMg

Shoulders appear uneven and I think that the stage-right arm has become skewed as consequence, it looks like it'd be pretty damn long if it was brought to a neutral position. Try and strike that pose in a mirror and kind of note the placement of your own extremities. Work nigga, work!

Roll

>>2657162
This one turned out pretty ass. Re-roll for a better attempt tomorrow

>>2657370
woah blog?

>>2657376
I only made the blog to upload LAS sketches, but I'm out of las now so I don't really post anymore
>sknives.tumblr.com

>>2639209
rollin

>>2657677
since I couldn't bother to go down into the dub dungeon, I chose the nomad princess.

>>2657677
went for the nomad princess in the end, since I think she's cute

>>2657713
cute, now do the original roll and challenge yourself

>>2657370
that looks awesome bro

>>2657743
the thing is I got dubs
well, I guess this roll will do

>>2639209
by 'trap princess' does it mean..?

>>2657713
I like it. It's cute and looks like a duck.

>>2658129
She has a net for a reason! Get your head out of the gutter!

rollerino

I cant promise ill roll but ill try to roll

jk rolling

>>2657370
>>2657792
Thanks dude

Tried again...wasn't feeling it enough today. I'll try one last roll ;_;

gonna roll for one more before colours

Rollholla Khomeini

>>2658506

poop??

as far as I could get tonight ill try to pick it up tomorrow because I suck at finishing anything

>>2658524
another hasty one. she's kinda cute actually

Didn't roll, but I wanted to draw her anyway. I feel like the face is sorta off, though.

Rollin'

>>2658605
I also did another one like a couple years back.

>>2658506
>>2658524
>>2658562
Always nice to see your work, Vono. There's something about how little you draw these ladies.

Roll roll

>>2658937
little as in size? thanks btw!

>>2659149

>>2659150
and stuff been done

>>2639209
R

>>2659149
>>2659150
>>2659151
cute as a button. good work; kinda hard to critique because of the style so just promise me you're drilling your fundies on the side.

...PROMISE ME!

>>2659333
Nice

>>2659336
don't worry man, it's /ic/ after all so i expect some flak here anyway. That last rushed sketch made me realize I didn't get her legs right so, now that's sorta fixed

also rollan again

>>2659697
HOPEFULLY i got this one right this time

rol

Drew this
https://i.imgur.com/MSfRldP.png

31-32

>>2661259
I like a lot of it, but I think the stage-right boob looks a bit odd both overlapping and being overlapped by the clothing like that.

>>2639209

roll

>>2647404
Insect princess is done.
Another one.

>>2661430
based as fuck senpai, got a blog you're willing to share or something? I've a huge hard on for crosshatching

>>2661259
adroable, not so fond of the colouring though, its not to pleassing to the eye, great drawing though!

>>2639209
hoping for something good

>>2661430
Do you have a moment to talk about the insect Lord?

Very nice as usual fambrosia, with very good proportional consistency throughout; the the wings on either side may be an exception to this. I will say that it would probably be better if the "ground plane" adhered to some sort of perspective though. Because of the background imagery and everything we're giving the impression that she might be standing on a petal or leaf of some sort, but the way the hatching on the ground is done has something of a flattening effect.

>>2659149
>>2659150
>>2659151
>>2659752
cute!!

rollocalypse

>>2639209
Rollin for the cute.

>>2662126
Attempted delivery

>>2661964
I'm doing the backgrounds on these after the fact, so perspective is often pretty shit.

>>2662187
Muh dick

roll

>>2662206
Head appears a bit too small fambolio; if she were standing straight up I'm pretty sure her torso alone would be 4 heads. Try increasing by about 10%.

ralllan

Rolliinnnnn'

roooll

>>2655263
The night is still young. Rolling for another :)

>>2663346
i like it


rollin'

>>2639209
benis

>>2664066
Trap princess

>>2639209
roll

Low quality triclops princess

>>2664237
Noice. Also, roll.

>>2659697
kwik stuff

Christ, Everytime I come back here there are more Princesses. You make this so difficult for me

>>2639209
Princess 54. Its my first time applying crosshatching to my work. Open to critiques

>>2666354
The only cross hatching I see is in the neck, the rest is hatching. looks chicken scratchy to be honest with you family

>>2658495
Underrated post

I like the subtle shading and that you drew in two different styles. Adorable. The hair, both on the head and the arms, is great.

>>2658605
I really like the colors. It's a tad asymmetrical in a few places on the sword but it doesn't detract much from the piece itself, something to look out for if it wasn't intentional though.

>>2663346
Not bad. I like that you tried putting the character in a scene. Good practice!

>>2664182
She looks like she has lazy eye. Her head is a bit too far forward, and the contour of her neck on the stage-right side is angled quite far from where it should be as consequences. It's pointing just shy of her nipple. Try and be cognizant of those kinds of spatial relationships as you're drawing. Also her torso seems just a bit long and it's brought her humeral portion of her arm along with it. Now that I have that out of the way, your command of the pencil medium itself isn't bad. You've managed to have bits of very soft shading in there that looks pretty good. Keep workin' famboni.

>>2664219
Not too shabby, nothing much to say though, it's pretty simple.

>>2664237
Looks fine by me. That cane is thin to the point of being silly, but otherwise you have some pretty nice constructive anatomy and rendering there.

>>2665222
D'aw. Nice trips, cute stuff.

>>2666354
Cute, but >>2666391 is right. Let's not get our terms mixed up. The lines are a bit chicken scratchy, but at least at first glance everything seems placed correctly and well proportioned for the most part. Nose might be a little low/mouth a little high. Reminds me of french animation style.

>>2639209
roll

roll

>>2666481
She was supposed to be snapping her fingers, not sure if that comes across.

>>2639209

Rolling.

roll

>>2666541
Counted my post as a roll.
Orc princess, less sketchy.

>>2639209
>>2639209
r o
l l

>>2666792
The most blatant problem are joints. Knee is a hinge and can't move sideways as in your drawing, that kind of motion needs to originate in her hip joint. This is much more important than you might think, so get your shit together and fix that skeleton.

>>2666825
I was going to say something about how the rear foot is foreshortened too much and how there's a substantial discrepancy in the size of her hands, but the knee doesn't look off to me personally.

>>2666832
>>2666825
Yeah I do see the turn in the knee now that you say it, I suck at feet and need to study joints as>>2666825 mentioned.
I sorta just gave up on the feet on the orc girl.

>>2666537
Loomis is dead
please forgive me for my crimes

>>2666832
aw shit I did mean to resize her right hand but I forgot.

>>2666391
>>2666425
Thanks for the feedbacks! Ye the term is called linear hatching (im a retard)

>>2639209
roll

>>2663346
I've been gradually enjoying this. Rolling

It's a thing. A bad thing.

Roll

>>2658560
did some more still working the contrast and colors back and forth

satyr princess was missing a crown so i added one!

>>2667798
8/10
Practice your lineart more and learn to clean it
http://friendlyhand.deviantart.com/journal/Tips-for-smooth-clean-line-art-359879866

rolliing

Demon princess

I've got a couple.

>>2667059
Adorable. Great shading and anatomy. Remember to follow through with the cylindrical form of the "circlet" or whatever she's wearing on her head, it looks like it comes to an unnaturally flat angle near the portion where the little faux-crown is. This is something that's so subtle and superficial it won't really matter 99% of the time to the audience, but it's something to be aware of nonetheless. Not necessarily for this piece alone, but rather if you have a piece with more prominent and similar wrapping forms in the future.

Also, there is a slight but noticeable discrepancy in the size of the hands you can see when you measure the dorsal portions of each against one another. Keep it up, good stuff so far.

>>2667066
lol, it's not all bad man. Below the neck and above the gooch nothing is particularly offensive. I'm not sure about those forms dilineating the front and back of her thigh though. It looks like she has a buttcrack on the side of her leg or something. It looks like you're using a Hogarth construction for her face which I'm not sure about. If you are reading Hogarth let his chiseled, almost polygonal style inform you of some of the facts of the anatomy but try to avoid aping it in personal work.

>>2667696
I'm suddenly interested in seeing where this goes. Keep it up.

>>2667798
HNNG!

>>2668402
Nice pose. Her stage-left lower leg looks absolutely enormous relative to its opposite on the right. Other than that there's nothing particularly offensive about this one. Keep workin'.

>>2668929
>>2668930
>>2668932
I love this style of yours. Fantastic characterization throughout each piece, and Vilppu would be proud of those forms. Nothing real productive to say. Keep practicing and pushing yourself.

>>2639209
roll

>>2639209
rolle

>>2669073

>>2668952
>seeing where this goes. Keep it up.

thanks for the bit of motivation but don't expect much I suck and am slow

roll

>>2670098

took a break to rough up something fun and then forgot to anthropomorphise the faun at all

>>2669163
adorable

>>2668952
That is the nicest thing anyone on /ic/ has ever said to me.

>>2668952
That is the nicest thing anyone on /ic/ has ever said to me.

>>2669163
Great economical rendering on a solid drawing foundation. Nothing really to complain about here. I like how the light pays off the embroidery (or whatever you call it) on the front of her clothing.

>>2670184
Always a pleasure, Pops. With that said, I feel like the stage-left portion of her torso is 'popping' out a bit too much, if only slightly. She appears to have an upper body that's somewhat uniform in width rather than the (usually exaggerated) hourglass (narrow shoulders, narrower obliques and wider hips) shape we associate with a female character. Overall though it's a very nice sketch (as yours often are) and I really like the dismissive expression you've managed to capture at such a tough angle in particular.

>>2670256
I like the Hogarth-style interpretive dance poses.

>>2670316
Y-...you too...

>>2669163
Great economical rendering on a solid drawing foundation. Nothing really to complain about here. I like how the light plays off the embroidery (or whatever you call it) on the front of her clothing.

>>2670184
Always a pleasure, Pops. With that said, I feel like the stage-left portion of her torso is 'popping' out a bit too much, if only slightly. She appears to have an upper body that's somewhat uniform in width rather than the (usually exaggerated) hourglass (narrow shoulders, narrower obliques and wider hips) shape we associate with a female character. Overall though it's a very nice sketch (as yours often are) and I really like the dismissive expression you've managed to capture at such a tough angle in particular.

>>2670256
I like the Hogarth-style interpretive dance poses.

>>2670316
Y-...you too...

>>2670184

>>2639209
I've not done of these in a while, gonna roll.

>>2668929
>>2668930
>>2668932
>>2669163
>>2670316
>>2670428
>>2670428
blog!?

>>2668929
>>2668930
>>2668932
>>2669163
>>2670316
>>2670428
>>2670428
blog!?

rr

>>2639209
and i shall roll

Roll

>>2670256
sigh

I felt better about this yesterday. Oh well.

PRINCESS GET!

>>2639209
rolling for bottom heavy princess

roll

keep rollin

rollin'

>>2639209
Roll!

>>2671391
You know, you think you want my blog, but you don't. You really don't.

This isn't a tower girl but I like it and I want someone to see. Forgive me.

rolling

Roll

Tear it apart.

rolll

>>2639209
Saving

time to start something i wont finish, roll

I did this assassin girl a while back. I tried to stick to the color scheme of the original but I think I went overboard.

>>2671578
Can't help but feel you've taken some inspiration from Berserk here.

>>2672681
>>2672704
>>2672818
I guess I'll take your word for it then my man. That's a lewd f*ckin' imp

>>2673105
Not much to tear apart necessarily, but there are some hiccups here and there. The ""tongue" of her slippers seems to project at a harsher angle on her stage-left foot than on its counterpart on the right. Her hairpiece doesn't seem to follow the perspective of the side-plane of her head (remember the Loomis model), also the sword's on-again-off-again contour outline on the front of the blade kind of detracts from any implied sharpness.

>>2673496
You've done a good job using wrapping forms to imbue the pieces with implied perspective. Thanks to an overlapping line and the outfit is kind of cool. It appears that her leg in the background is emerging from the same pant leg as her leg in the foreground.

>>2673626
>Thanks to an overlapping line and the outfit is kind of cool.

F*ck me I got distracted by a customer and ended up making an ass out of myself. I meant to say:

>You've done a good job using wrapping forms to imbue the pieces with implied perspective and the outfit is kind of cool.

>Thanks to an overlapping line it appears that her leg in the background is emerging from the same pant leg as her leg in the foreground.

>>2673626
>Thanks to an overlapping line and the outfit is kind of cool.

F*ck me I got distracted by a customer and ended up making an ass out of myself. I meant to say:

>You've done a good job using wrapping forms to imbue the piece with implied perspective and the outfit is kind of cool.

>Thanks to an overlapping line it appears that her leg in the background is emerging from the same pant leg as her leg in the foreground.

>>2673626
>Thanks to an overlapping line and the outfit is kind of cool.

F*ck me I got distracted. I meant to say:

>You've done a good job using wrapping forms to imbue the piece with implied perspective and the outfit is kind of cool.

>Thanks to an overlapping line it appears that her leg in the background is emerging from the same pant leg as her leg in the foreground.

>>2673626

Is that good? I dont know.

Pose / upshot came from a ref of the polish jousting team. I grabbed ref /info from my European armor folder.

Jojo meme because I am lame.

>>2673626
>That's a lewd f*ckin' imp.

This is what I do my friend.

>>2639209
rolling

i shall roll, plz gib qt

rollin

Pizza rolls

>>2673791
Sorry for the confusion, it's not a bad thing I'd say.

>>2674734
Is that black graphite?

>>2674138
Isn't her mouth supposed to be a portal?

>>2674785
It's one of those thick graphite crayons and then I have a dark size B pen that I "ink" it with. I like how it looks for sketching.

>>2674793
Yes, this is my Hell Mouth Imp fan art.

rollan

roll

>>2639209
ello

>>2639209
ROLLL

roll!

>>2639209
roll

That carrot was too big, too rough to be called a vegetable.

Rabbit Princess, and PRINCESS GET!

roll

rolling

>>2678828

>>2661237
I don't quite know what you're going for. Is it cute, cool, or furry shit? Cause it looks to me like you were trying to do all three. And it looks like a poor combination imo

>>2669163
bloooooooog?

rollll

>>2678867
That's really good. How did you block out your perspective?

>>2675571
While it's not the only problem with this piece, one thing to keep in mind when doing a piece that's partially linework and partially color is to try and be judicious with where you put these lines. There are a couple of places near the cupid's bow of the mouth as well as the chin that are just a spackle of black line and it doesn't really describe any forms that are completely necessary. It'd probably look better if you removed that stuff entirely leaving only the lips themselves.

>>2677653
Cute

>>2678431
Pretty solid figure drawing, though the claw-like stage-right hand isn't doing the piece any favors, and there's an unfortunate tangent being created at the chin and the pit of the neck.

>>2678867
Cute face.

With the lack of a rounded form underneath the drapery on side opposite of her exposed breast, particularly with how the shading implies this drapery is being pulled inward, we're given the impression that she only has one tiddy.

>>2680642
I've been working hands since that piece. They are a major weak point for me(in addition to most other things). I had a hard time figuring out how to make her head look like it was leaning forward from holding the carrot.

Ah well. The next one will be better.

Role

>Natti Backsnapicus
Wait, was this made by a /fit/izen ?

Imp Princess, and PRINCESS GET!

Gonna put the next one in the palm of a giant hand or something.

>>2681354


Wow. Merchant, you truly are my greatest ally.

Alien*, Amazon, Angel, Ant
Bat, Bee, Butterfly
Cat, Centaur, Chimaera*, Crab, Crystal, Cyclops*
Demon*, Djiin, Doll*, Dragon, Dullahan, Dwarf
Eldritch, Elemental, Elf
Fairy, Faun*, Frog
Gargoyle, Ghost, Gnome*, Goblin, Golem, Gorgon*, Gryphon*
Harpy, Holstaur, Human
Imp
Kobold, Kraken
Lamia, Lich*
Mantis, Mermaid, Merrow*, Mimic, Monkey, Moth, Mouse
Ogre, Oni*, Orc
Plant
Rabbit
Scorpion, Shadow, Shark, Sheep, Skeleton, Slime, Sphynx*, Spider, Succubus*, Sword*
Triclops*
Vampire
Werewolf, Wolf*
Yeti
Zombie

The ones with asterisks are ones I'm considering getting rid of for now or fusing together, such as with Demon and Succubus.

I'm at 68 and am hoping to cut it down to 60 or less. I don't mind having a larger number but I want to make sure each one can be unique. These ones are just the major categories, some would have "sub-species", like different varieties of elementals.

Any input would be appreciated

>>2681588
Nevermind, I was able to trim it down on my own and even add a few besides.

I'm down to one last decision before I can hit 60: which princess would you rather have - Gorgon, Doll, or Chimaera?

>>2681588
>Any input would be appreciated
updating the template is a thread on /tg/. back to drawing

Rollin

Rawll

got 65 on random.org, so heres my vampire princess uwu

Fatroll

>>2639209
I want to draw a cute

>>2682024

rOlL

>>2681993
scary af

>>2682213
cute af

roll

>>2682454
And done, got sorta bored so the feet and her left arm are still wonky.
Roll for next time

>>2682574
Nice face and figure overall, I like how you portrayed her cute curly hair and the folds in her clothing are well done. I was tempted to say the index finger was a little long but after looking a bit closer using photoshop I found that you're pretty spot on. Good work fampaisano.

roll***

>>2682213
Love the curled toes and general body language, very cute.

Tried a pose I don't do often, not so happy with it but on to the next.

>>2639209
roll

>>2682692
Ah thanks, it's her right arm that bothers me but I'm too lazy to fix it. I'm also retarded and wrote left on the comment.

This one was a bit quicker, done for now though.

Rolling

fucd up her arms :/

>>2683521
absolutely love what you did with her. wonderful work

sound interdastering. First time, roll

>>2683747
Glad you like it, I lied about it being done too.

Is this passable foreshortening?

>>2639209
rollerino pepperino

roll i guess

Rollipoly-faggotoli

Rolling right to the gym today and it was the best of the day before I get a follow back on my way home from work to be the same thing to say I don't think that I have a great way of the day before I get a follow back and the other day of my favorite song on this one has been the same thing to say....

>>2683858
arm up front looks fine, arm in the back looks ridiculously tiny. the spear also looks too exaggerated. I'd reel (wink) those two back in a bit.

>>2683534
Criticism is welcome

>>2683534
Criticism is welcome

>>2684633
Yeah, I was going for a dramatic look but didn't commit very hard.

This one was a quickie, fucked up the hips but didn't notice til the fabric was on.

>>2684628
what

>>2684797
personally, I would move the eyes further apart, shrink the chin a little, and move the entire head area forward a bit. overall, your picture is pretty cute

>>2639209
rollerino

>>2639209
roll

>>2685955

>>2686017
blog?

>>2686088
Thanks anon, here are my sites

>>2680067

>>2639209
rolololoo in the rolloo

>>2685901
Thanks mate! I noticed the chin as well when looking at the thumbnail, made her look strange. Didn't move her eye as much, but a small shift does look better.

>>2683789
crystal-princess done,reroll

>>2683789
done, reroll

>>2681837
Goblin Princess

>>2686849
New thread, fambo. I'll repost for you

>>2639209
Roll

yeti princess, take the chance to practice as well
no shadowing

>>2639209
reoll