/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>2173854
there's loads. most of them are you'll never know they were just self taught because there's so many.

>>2173854
Dude did you ever read this article?:
https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/dont-go-to-art-school-138c5efd45e9

I don´t know where you live, but in "America" the school system is fucked up already. Do you even have a u$100K to get an "Art degree"? Don´t be naive.

Every artist working in the industry today will tell you that no one will ask you for a degree to hire you for a job. They will ask for quality.
If you´re here loosin time on /ic then you can instead go and see how to use this amazing tool that is the internet.

Feng, Proko, Jeff Watts, CubeBrush, Will Terry, (not Will Terrel), Peter Morbacher, Sycra, Scott Robertson, and more, are all giving great free tutorials and advice on YouTube. You can download any book, reference, software and resources to do your job. You have all sorts of platforms to show your work and build your own network. Tumblr, Worpress, Blogger, Twitter, DA, Instagram, Facebook.. What else do you want? What else do you need?... Do you really need someone to show you how to put all those elements together?

You don´t need to spend 100K on something that is available to you for free. you just need to get your shit together and start DOING IT. Get a Tumblr and post a drawing every day, build a body of work, be someone.

And if your school system is "fucked up", then that´s good, every problem needs someone to fix it, otherwise no one will need you. Look at Noah Bradley, the guy took advantage of the FUCKED UP american education system. And know the guy is making tons of easy money because of that.
Don´t go around seeking for the answer to your problems, BE the answer to your own problems and sell that answer to others. Are you understanding how this works? There´s two sides in the art world, the ones who buy answers, and the ones who sells them... On which side are you?

>>2173874
Thank you for your words.
I guess my problem is I feel a bit lost. It's kind of diffucult to get serious critic on the internet for me.
And I just don't know how to start. There is so much social media and so many artists that are very good. I have struggles like "do the art world really needs somebody like me?". And I am very shy, I mean, I don't have any real life friends and don't know how to find people like me who can motivate me or who can give me honest critic.
Even in the internet I just don't know how to stay in contact with other people.

Since I try to get serious about my art I am thinking this kind of stuff, I am not able to finish a drawing properly and then I get depressed because I am not able to finish anything. I am sorry about the moaning.

In the art-school threads it always sounded to me that the system in america is better. Looks like I misunderstood it.

>>2173880
Thank you for that, this was really interesting.

I just need to get my shit together. With all that struggles and the depression in the back of my head it will never work out for me.

>>2173854

daniel chavez is self thaught

>>2173854
You will find even if you are on a degree programme that, you will be generally making the most progress in your own free time and most lecturers expect you to learn most of the real shit on your own after they briefly talk a pile of shit about the topics.An average student doesn't do anything in their free time so whilst they may get a 1st class degree by doing the bare minimum at a good level they will work at a super market in the end or some irrelevant field because when you ask them to actually produce a commission for example it looks like shit because they didn't put the time into becoming good. Remember if its concept art for example that you want to get into, having the skill is immediate and real key towards success. It is rare you will find a school that will grant you relevant tuition at a good price.

I think that the main benefit is being told what to do or being set assignments because you are more likely to exercise when youre in a class full of people ready to exercise, otherwise it requires distinct discipline and motivation to really sit down at home and put in the many hours towards mastering your craft.

This goes for even my software engineering degree, if i graduated with a first i'd still be fucked unless i practice programming heavily in my free time. It all boils down to whether you put the hours in or not. What i do think art school helps with is networking and general life experience (getting laid,moving out etc) at a extremely expensive price..

TLDR:
You end up questioning why the fuck you had to pay 100k for something you could have done yourself in your own free time if you were motivated and disciplined enough to do it and not have somebody (with potentially no industry exp) hold your hand for 100k.USD

>>2173920

zedig is self thaught

>>2173880
this was really depressing and insightful for somebody who will be entering art school next year.

I have a concern with this graphic though as it includes fields such as theater, dance, video, photography, and etc in the 2 million bachelors of the "arts". I'm not concerned that those fields are or are not "art", however it might be slightly misleading on a board such as /ic/ where people(and myself) will see it as graphic design, illustration, UX, or animation. The data would be more interesting and applicable to see if "graphic artist' degrees are as equally useless as a theater or photography degree.

>>2173854
Reason says yes but reality says NO!

People worry about status, they worry how they would appear to others. Your question shows that for example. It's not just you.

Corporations, LLC, studios, or any decent size business that has an HR dept are prejudice against self taught artist. They believe that you're 'suppose' to go to college. Anything other puts up red flags.

There execptions but most of the time when they do hire a self taught artist it's because they already have a reputation. And if you listen to those new hires often times they take a severe pay cut for job security.

But that begs the question if your aleady doing it making living what does it matter where you learned? Unfortunately business culture doesn't realize what that question is saying.

>>2173907
>"do the art world really needs somebody like me?"
Wow, I had the same problem. I was good, not "fucking amazing", but pretty good, then when I got into Deviant Art, Pixiv, etc, around 2008 and saw the level of quality and quantity in the global market I felt like it was all over. What the fuck could I add to this absolutely overwhelming artistic market? I was devastated.
So I spend some years lurking and being just a consummer of art, gathering stuff.

Then some day it cam down to me:"It´s never enough". No matter how much art is produced, no matter how good art is, you always want more, people always lurk for more. People download entire libraries of works and they don´t even care to see them later, cause they are busy gathering more. It´s like a desease, an addiction.
Then I understood, there´s a place for me to fill in this neverending escenario of adicction. I can take advantage of this situation.

The key is how to market your stuff the best way possible, use the most practical media, the most practical subject in the most practical platform.
1-The most practical media is about what kind of technique you can work faster, a simple sketch, a flat colored pic, or a complex shading image. You need to develop a fast techinque that allows you to do atleast a picture or more per day. Nowadays you can´t be slower than that.

2-The most practical subject, you must choose a subject with a smart strategy behind it, choose ONE thing and elaborate around that. If you choose a mecha subject see what relates to mecha and waht it´s hot on that subject in the mainstream media. What approach gather the interest of that crowd. Like in example people didn´t like it the "Dino mechas" in Transformers 4 that was stupid and uncalled for. People likes mechas related to that same field, like bikes, cars, airplaines...
I´ll continue below...

>>2173977
And What about mechas related to trains and big boats? What about a bullet train like the Shinkansen turning into some sort of snake mecha? Good ideas comes out of nowhere if you center your attention in the "subject" with a magnifying glass. You don´t need to go to any school to come up with ideas and make them work. Creativity can´t be sold in packages.

3-The most practical platform, here´s where the real work comes and it´s about the networking. Deviant Art it´s for artists, so you´ll be interacting with other people who wants the same as you, they´re creators not consummers. You have to be in the mainstream consummer platforms like, wordpress, blogger, Twitter, Facebook, Tumblr, instagram, reddit, pinterest, these are platforms to spread your work. If you make this platforms to work for you and gather viewers, then you have other tools to get money out of this favourable situation: E-bay, Etsy, Paypal, Patreon, Kickstarter, google-ads, etc.

But all starts with you and what you´re going to offer. Listening to podcasts like the ones Peter Morbacher does is good for learning and understanding how to approach your ideas. Peter says that when he builds a stand box in conventions, what always works better is a main subject. Like if you present to the crowd a stand with all different subjects: a mecha, a car, a Lion, a Landscape, and a portrait people will pass on. But if you present an idea around a main subject like cars, and you have 20 different cars pictures, people will stay and see what is the best car in the bunch. It´s a simple concept but it´s very true. This works at many levels, when presenting art to the viewers.

So there´s always more room to show stuff, people are like an insaciable plague of grasshoppers, as soon as they see your stuff if it´s good they will jump on it, eat it and keep going after another. The trick is how to present your stuff and where.
I´ll continue below...

>>2173907
there is no art world, don't be deceived by words

>>2173978
About the school stuff I´ve heard that europeans have a good advantage because their govermnents invest quite a bit of money in public education and universities. Maybe a cheap trip to Spain could be a good idea. Jeff Watts said that one of the best experiences of his life was to see Joaquín Sorolla´s paintings in a trip to Sorollas museum in Madrid.
And about the "interaction", I dunno about that, the most prolific artists are the most solitary, shut ins, and hermit type of people. They just shut in their studio and vomit work all day long. That´s the life of comic artists pretty much. It sucks but it works, deep inside people don´t want to "know you" they just want to get shit, they want you to give them stuff non stop. So that´s the "relationship" you should build, just give them stuff.

>walls
/lit/ pls

>>2173962
>every successful artist ever is lying
>believe me instead, I know how the industry really works!

>>2173939
>>2173982
Thanks for that advice and the input.

>>2173920
>>2173953
These amazing works are really motivating me.

I wrote down a schedule for me to stay disciplined and start it tomorrow. If it don't works out for me, I can still go back to the graphic design stuff and earn my money with that. But I will stay focused at what I REALLY want. I need to fight my inner pussy cry deamons and just do it.

>>2173961
As the creator of that graphic as well as this one, I do share your concern with the efficacy of aggregating all of these "artistic disciplines" in with one another, but that study is the only one of its kind that I'm aware of. I tried to offset this inherent flaw by sharing a few anecdotes from relevant personalities like Cearley, Bradley and Thomas (who himself hasn't spoken about it in depth as far as I'm aware but reblogged Noah Bradley's diatribe) but I know that those are anecdotes nonetheless and simply don't count for a whole lot as consequence. While it's not perfect I do feel that it errs on the side of "mostly correct" across many artistic disciplines including the ones we're most concerned with but I'm very open to targeted data for illustration, animation and so on specifically that may challenge the assertion made by the image.

>>2174231
>As the creator of that graphic as well as this one
You need a tripcode.

>>2174231
>that picture
jesus, wtf?

>>2174245
>same model, same pose
>4 different tit sizes

Went to art school but got good by myself because in artschool they only taught us artkilling, discourse-dependent, headache-inducing conceptual/contemporary art. @rosssin on insta

>>2173854
"The Art World" is one of the few professionals where you're given the opportunity to demonstrate your competence via portfolio alone. With every other job, when they say "[Blank] Certification/Diploma/Degree" required it doesn't matter how competent you are. You can't apply to be an engineer and say "I don't have my degree but look at these videos of me working I'm really good." You need that fucking degree.

Anyway, what I'm saying is of-fucking-course. Visual arts is unique in that it is one of the few fields where self-taught people are essentially on a completely equal playing field, and education doesn't matter. It's all portfolio baby. I mean hell, these days half the people that go to Art Institutions got in because of the portfolio they submitted. Free ride with a good portfolio, or at least significantly reduced tuition. If you pay full for an education in art, you make bad life decisions.

>>2174245
>need a tripcode

I don't know about that, I go by this name sometimes; I don't have anything substantive to say 90% of the time.

>>2173962
You're either lying or delusional, because you're completely fucking wrong. You set your own fucking glass ceiling as a self-taught artist. How well do you network, and how much effort is spent on your portfolio. Those are the only two things that matter at all.

>>2174375
No need to be rude! I'm interested to hear if he can substantiate his claims though. I don't think I've ever heard of a professional not getting paid as well as others of similar ability because he didn't graduate from "school x" and I'd be okay with having my own convictions regarding art school tested.

>>2174393
Yeah that was rude, sorry about that. It's just that it IS bullshit. In no reality is what he says completely true.

School serves a few good purposes. Some people simply can't self teach. So having a structured environment is helpful, and having paid for it is good [albeit shortsighted] motivation. A lot of schools also try to place you in the industry [saves you a lot of networking] and will generally walk through your portfolio with you. So school is necessity if you aren't a self-driven individual.

Basically, I talk a lot of shit about school because it isn't entirely necessary and a lot of people don't know that. I can concede that for certain types of people they absolutely need school. They need a teacher, in an academic flavored environment, in order to succeed. And that's alright. But the idea that anybody needs an art degree, specifically, is objectively bullshit. But again, people needing school for actual development is a whole other thing. But it has nothing at all to do with degrees.

>>2174408

If you got it all payed for (full ride scholarship or rich parents) it gives you 4 years to develop. Almost no artist in history has been ready to make innovations at 18 years old. You need that incubation period and then start doing important things in your early to mid 20s. School is a good place for that

>>2174417
Oh totally agreed. If you've got the portfolio to get a full ride, or otherwise get some hardcore grants, go for it. It's an opportunity to develop full-time, as opposed to balancing work and passion.

>>2174417
>School is a good place for that

So is your parent's house, unless you're part of a dysfunctional broken family I suppose.

e.g.

https://mega.co.nz/#F!es1BSKQR!spODyd0iaQmMelGA2GscFw

http://www.newmastersacademy.org/home/

http://2d.cgmasteracademy.com/

http://www.ctrlpaint.com/library

There is no good reason you shouldn't at least attempt to "make it", whatever that means to you, on your own if the possibility exists that you can and especially if you're still young. The schools are not going anywhere. If you try your goddamn hardest for 3-4 years from graduation onwards and you still aren't capable of high quality work in your chosen field then maybe you should try for school if you're still passionate about it, but otherwise there should be no hurry. You shouldn't make snap decisions when 10s, if not 100s of thousands of dollars are at stake.

Whatever you do though, don't start working superlative hours at some warehouse right when you get out of school and suddenly have the epiphany that you ought to off yourself because you're only capable of painfully slowly churning out crude cartoon-style illustrations as you approach your 30s, having spent a decade idly hoarding "money" while your true passion ultimately went unfulfilled like...somebody

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajMpfPYlHi4

>>2174093

Can you share your schedule/lesson plan/whatever? I'm on the same spot as you.

>>2174278
>that time of the month

>>2174279
>good

>>2173854
R A P O Z A
R
A
P
O
Z
A

>>2174571
He's self taught too? Noice

anyone know of any current self taught artists? (as apposed to illustrators and concept artists?)

>>2174408
Yeah you're right it's complete bullshit, I mean there is just no way an employer would try to low ball you using a lack of a formal education as leverage against you.

Oh wait, no it isn't.

>>2174816
Post your citation of this occurring in an artistic career. All you have to do is find a blog post of a self-taught artist claiming to being paid less because of a lack of formal education.

>>2174375
Have you ever lived off freelancing? It's a continuous hustle. When it's good it's great but when it's bad you hate it and start to worry about where the next check is coming from.

Sakimichan or Kornz were making five digits a month for while on thier patreon sites. And they're mediocre artists. If all of a sudden thier fans just vanished and both artist were using patreon to keep the lights on, do you think they could go to any employer and ask for say 10,000 a month, just for character art? Fuck no.

Most of the time a freelancer switchs to a corporate career it is because of job security. Employers won't or can't afford to pay what some freelancers are accustomed to. So there is a trade off, instead of a high salary they get benefits of a steady job with medical and paid time off.

Wake up kid. The world doesn't go by your idealized fantasies. You can't just demand a gazillion dolluhs bcuz yur portfoliolio iz the shiznick right now.

>>2174822
Cite me a job posting that doesn't ask about education level or equivalent work history. Cite me a company that says it doesn't factor education or experience into determining a payscale.

Better yet, since you're all about making ridiculous demands, demonstrate to me how to calculate an exact number on just looking at the portfolio alone. Show me the "facts" mr.logic.

>>2174850
>or equivalent work history

https://vimeo.com/57349573#t=2311s

>>2174850
>Cite me a job posting that doesn't ask about education level or equivalent work history.

The reason companies do that is so they weed out stupid highschool kids and wannabe artists suffering from Dunning Kruger such as yourself.

Obviously it's difficult/nearly impossible as self-taught artist to get to work on triple A games or high budget movies right out of the gate, but that's nearly impossible for art school grads as well. Almost every professional artist went through shit tier freelance or in-house work and slowly built up their work experience one project at the time. Whether they are self-taught or not, that's simply the process you'll have to go through. Once you have work experience and your portfolio is very strong, then no one gives a shit about education.

I mean, I'm pretty sure companies and studios like Warner Bros, Blizzard, Universal, CDProject, Marvel, Fox etc all write that they only want artists with finished art education to apply to open job listings, and yet Dave Rapoza worked for all of them.

>>2173880

>>2174850
Noah Bradley went to school for one year, dropped it and he makes more than 10s of thousands of artists who have masters degrees and so on; the proof is in the pudding my butthurt friend.

>>2173880
>>2174231

One film that has several anecdotes relevant to this subject is "Comic Con IV: a Fan's Hope" (http://www.hulu.com/watch/356864).). At the San Diego Comic Convention many independent comic publishers as well as the big two set up areas specifically for artists to bring their portfolios up for the company's perusal. In the film, the bad artist doesn't get hired and the more refined artist does albeit for a smaller studio. When it comes to art, we are doing something that many people simply can't do, it's not data entry or sales some some other menial task like that and having a degree doesn't mean you have a high degree of skill.

>>2174889
>dropped it

Sorry I mean he transferred to a far less prestigious community college just for the record

>>2174279
>Good
Is this yours? Because it looks exactly like someone who would say something like that.

>>2174850
>Cite me a company that says it doesn't factor education or experience into determining a payscale.
Funny you had to add "or experience", in fact changing your initial argument since it was THAT weak.

>>2174859
>He's lying! He's EVIL! Listen to me I'm an anon on 4chan, I know better.

>>2174889
The Noah Bradley example works in my favor. I'm saying that freelancers usually trade in the ability to bring in top dollar to have security with of full-time.

>>2175009
No it doesn't change my first arguement. If you bothered to read it i did mention something about reputation e.g. experience.

>>2174461
jim carey is a shit actor tho.

>>2175057
Ad hominem. He's also a disgusting nogunz liberal twat, but what he's saying is true af fam. It may not resonate with you now but it would if you were in my position as somebody who worked for a long time in lieu of pursuing a dream in earnest.

>>2174889
Noah only got famous by throwing that dont go to art school bullshit, he went to art school for two years, his art is not as good, he just got lucky and did good publicity on himself

>>2175051
Your argument is fucking stupid. No big client hires complete and utter rookie artists right out of art school either, so obviously experience always matters when it comes to landing a good job, doesn't matter whether you are self-taught or have gone to art school.

>>2175121
Yes and Sakimichan only got famous by doing fanart and Marko Djurdjevic only got famous by being a beast draughtsman and Bumskee, Brad Rigney, Dave Rapoza, Algen, Jana, Zedig etc only got famous for any number of reasons. I suppose you agree then that you do in fact not need art school to make it in this industry.

>>2173961
As someone working on my first theater gig it definitely seems like theater degrees can be quite wasteful. All of two people on set have a degree. I'm sure a degree helps to get certain internships in desirable areas and with certain companies but theater is so community oriented that people can get by on recommendations and friends lending hands. I'm sure the nepotism can be grating to an outsider but on the other hand it means you don't need to spend 4 years and tens of thousands in debt to get your foot in the door.

Maybe someone finds this interesting.

>>2173920
>dat deformed bicep

I did a degree in sculpture and learned no sculpting skills
Loved every minute of my time at art college, and had lots of shows in the years afterwards


But if I could go back in time I'd want a technical skills based course, not a conceptual wankfest. Love it though I did.

I'm crippled with my art sometimes because of the skills gap.

>>2178495

and now you work at burger king.

Van Gogh was self-taught

>>2174375
>How well do you network, and how much effort is spent on your portfolio. Those are the only two things that matter at all.

Los Angeles fag here. I can tell you how things went with my buddy who's an artist. He does packaging for cologne and stuff like that to make money, but art for the love of it. And to make money.

Galleries liked his stuff, but they wanted someone with an art school background. To sell it they needed to be able to say hey, you're buying a guy that is a rising artist, his pieces will appreciate in value because he's moving on to do x, y z, blah blah blah.

If you have the right connections, maybe you can bypass all that, but that was what he told me. He sells his stuff on some art website that's popular and does alright, but nothing like the guys making real money on there with prints and whatnot.

>>2174850
>demonstrate to me how to calculate an exact number on just looking at the portfolio alone. Show me the "facts" mr.logic.
haha, you're socialist dont you

Look at it this way.

If you have a shitty portfolio and a no degree you aren't getting hired. If you a shitty portfolio and a degree you aren't getting hired. See what I'm saying? It's the fucking quality of your work that counts, regardless of whether you hold a degree. An employer is going to choose a capable person over a less capable person with a degree.

Anybody that makes the argument that a degree is a necessary prerequisite to work in the industry is literally retarded, or butthurt and in denial because they're in crippling debt having already gone to school. School is valuable for a whole bunch of reasons, but a degree isn't one of them. What matters is how fucking competent you are.

>>2173978
You know, that explains why my DA has like 100 but my Tumblr has 1300 followers

>>2173854
of course they can, nigger

bumped