/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>2163128
Never erase your lines.

>>2163128
Just focus on getting good and you will get work.

It implies that that's all there is to being a pro, when you need to have a lot of non-art skills. Marketing, connections, a good personality, good communication skills, good problem solving, ability to adapt, basic knowledge of contracts and negotiation, good time management etc.

not advice per say, but attempting to copy popular art styles for a long time in search of internet points and validation from my peers really hindered my development for a while.

There's a lot of shit you don't have to learn if you're just gonna draw in a highly stylized way, (like how drawing just astroboy legs will gimp you from ever learning how to draw feet or ankles)

>>2163128
Just to add another.

Two words: Burner Hogarth.

>>2163128
1) Ignore people who are mean (best crit I've gotten is from giant assholes I really don't like, but they have provided useful crit despite this fact)
2) Don't trust anyone who doesn't back up their critique with their own work as proof that they are better than you and hence able go provide useful crit. (peer review is helpful, even at the beginner level, learn how to parse useful stuff from bullshit)
3) Loomis is the only way to achieve success and is one size fits all (loomis is great, but our based god Vilppu and Hampton were more helpful for me... and Mattesi blew my mind)
4) You don't need fundamentals to draw stylized
5) Art School is for suckers
6) Everyone can self teach themselves

Yes I know 5 and 6 are somewhat contradictory, that's the point. Shit ain't black and white, everyone is different and has different needs and abilities.

>>2163128
>read the sticky
Full of shit and half read material
>needs more loomis
The #1 catch phrase of pretentious internet artistes
>learn the fundamentals
"That's not even wrong" fits that to a T
>Adobe is the industry standard
It's all about the gear, amirite fellas!?!?

This place is a trap for niave kids too lonely to reason for themselves. I've never seen so many dumbfucks believe such misguided info.

>>2163134
O god I remember being told that in second grade.
"An artist never erase."

>>2163145
Hogarth ain't that bad.

>>2163218
His too stylized. No denying his anatomy and knowledge but his hands look like spaghetti, face is plain ugly and the muscles are too cartoony.

>>2163192
too many aspiring artist get bad advice from non-artist ppl, I know since I was one of them

Worst and misleading advice I ever got:
>This place sucks and there is nothing good here.

I'll never understand the whiny faggots who post bitching about how bad this board is. Fucking leave if you don't like it, or work to make it better. Ya'll a bunch of whiny bitches who aren't gonna make it. Get the fuck out and leave us to our own devices.

I'm talking to you
>>2163187

>>2163128
This one
>>2163165

>>2163192
I'mdisgusted just reading that

>>2163245
I think this board is full of elitist snobs, but that's why it's perfect for getting critique. No matter what, someone will tell you what you need to improve

>Do quick gestures.
Only advanced pros do them quick. For starters you have to think and write how the pose works before even starting. Understanding first, feels later.
>Don't use references/3D/photobash unless you're a pro
It turns out that using those things requires a lot of practice to pull off right. And you don't learn them unless you practice them over and over. The people who diss those techniques don't even know how to use them.
>Don't trace.
Tracing is fantastic for developing muscle memory and speed.
>Do everything with hard round brush. Everything.
Texture and air brushes also require mastering. They save a lot of time in production.
>Do more speed paintings, fail faster.
Illustration requires hours of planning, writing and research. Pros are pros for being good, not necessarily fast. It is better to invest many days making a piece the best piece ever, instead of jumping around making many little pieces.
>Don't erase
Duh

>>2163317
>Tracing is fantastic for muscle memory and speed

Source? This literally goes against everything I have ever heard anywhere, be it from professors, the internet, /ic/, anyone. You are literally the first person I've ever heard state that tracing is a good idea. Unless you count the basic line practice from Dynamic Sketching as tracing. This doesn't mean your opinion is necessarily wrong, just that I can't wrap my head around why it could possibly be a good thing.

And this is a genuine question, not kidding. I don't understand how tracing builds muscle memory for anything other than the exact thing you are tracing. I also don't understand how it helps build speed except for the exact thing you are tracing. My own anecdotal evidence states that tracing is good for nothing other than trying to figure out the forms before trying to do it yourself. It can potentially be useful for that, but even then once you remove the image and just look at the trace it's generally useless.

Please explain.

>>2163326
Nigga what. Even Jeff fuckin Watts and Proko think tracing is a good form of practicing. Erik Gist also agrees.

it trains you to move your arm, i guess, that's not directly correlated with drawing anyways

>>2163332
Well you didn't exactly answer any of my questions but thanks for tossing out those names.

So it's good cause they say so, since they are good anything they suggest must also be good. Seems legit. Thanks. I'll go look 'em up.

>>2163245
I've never understood the whiny idiots who defend this place. Stop being stupid and maybe others won't complain so much.

For a place that implies a promise of having an intelligent open discussion about art, dumb shit groupies like you defending shit you know nothing about sure makes that promise harder to keep with each new summer.

>>2163338
At least I enjoy being here. You don't. Leave already you fuck. Oh wait, you're too retarded for such simple logic.

>>2163344
I have a ball when I'm here. It's hilarious what you nitwits come up with. Not one of you is as dumb as all you together. Who would want to miss that kind of entertainment?

I especially get a giggle out of the self portrait threads, with everyone trying to make themselves look moody or edgy in some way.

>>2163356
Oh cool, so you DO like it here. That's cool. I guess we were fighting over nothing. My bad. Let's be bros, bruh.

>>2163356
>shitposts
>complains that /ic/ is shit

Seriously?

>>2163317
>>2163326
>>2163332
Tracing is basically useful if you're super beginner level: when you're like 8 and you trace out of comic books.

>>2163139
Hmm, I'm only missing the first three and I'm making about $500 a month on art. Not there yet, obviously, but it's pretty easy to keep clients around by just doing a good job. Perhaps if I had better marketing skillz I could build up that client list faster, but I've gotten this far just meeting people randomly and having a website.

I think one thing you didn't mention is being able to have your 'finger on the pulse', knowing what's going to be fashionable ahead of time, and being aware of the world around you. Something else I don't have, ha.

>>2163223
You are not supposed to copy his style.

>>2163192
I remember my theology teacher telling us that davinci never erased his lines as to learn from his mistakes. Can you believe that? She made it sounds so prominent that everyone in the class took it as a tested and true method.

Our art teacher? Fucker made us do arts and craft and never taught the fundamentals.

I remember there being a huge weird stigma about the smudge tool. I.E.
>why don't you just paint it???
The smudge tool and mixer brush are closer to traditional oils than the brush tool once you know how to use them. Please don't let a certain stigma prevent you from utilizing tools that could vastly improve your work. Ima say that again

PLEASE DONT LET A CERTAIN STIGMA PREVENT YOU FROM UTILIZING TOOLS THAT COULD VASTLY IMPROVE YOUR WORK. This goes for much more than the smudge tool and mixer brush as well.

>>2163326
of course it's useless after you remove the image, it's just an exercise after all. it's kinda like when kids trace the alphabet when they're learning to write. but we don't end up with the same penmanship, do we? personally, tracing has taught me a lot about correct proportions and the placement of features. it's an exercise to help you understand, it's not the end product. but whatever man, you do you

Don't go to the Art School or University

>>2163187
>learn the fundamentals
how is this misleading?
>Adobe is the industry standard
that is just a fact. it doesn't mean there aren't other programs.

>>2163192
this is pretty good advice for if you're starting out and you need to learn to not chickenscratch

>>2163486
>learn to not chickenscratch
thats the whole point guys

Worst advice I ever got was from my father who told me not to draw or copy the pictures and or characters around me when I was 6-7.
Essentially I rendered a pretty amazing picture of bugs bunny from a ball I owned and decided to send it into cheese tv for recognition and a prize pack he claimed that is was illegal and tore up my picture.
Did the same thing when I wrote goose bumps fanfiction.

Technically he was correct but realistically he was a fuck wit.

>>2163357
It's spelled brah, dumbass. But I'll be ur brih if u wntz, duud;-)

>>2163473
You don't even understand how market penetration works why waste time explaining art?

>>2163187
>implying generations of /ic/ users haven't gotten good reading the sticky
>implying learning fundamentals is bad
>implying adobe isn't the industry standard

Are you that sperg who raged when /ic/ made porn from his OC?

"Use grids when doing a study or do it upside down". This is the worst, it gives people the mentality of a printer, they copy all these abstract shapes that eventually add up to a picture, like a piecing together a jigsaw. You learn nothing from it, you don't need to think about the forms, a purely mechanical task.

"avoid mixing medias"/"this and that should never be used together."

Fuck off. I will mix my paint types.

>>2163606
>Typing out implying when greentexting
Way to go try hard

>>2163578
why are you changing the topic now? did you realize that you said something stupid anon?

>>2163575
>never heard the term brush before, too lazy to google, this person must be dumb
Nah bruh, that's how it's spelled. You're just dumb.

>>2163630
>gets shit on so hard he starts trying to hide his newness.

>>2163575
>never heard the term bruh before. too dumb to google or consider there are parts of the world outside own tiny experience

Nah bruh, that's how it's spelled. You're just dumb. I changed my mind, don't wanna be friends with you anymore.

You are either an oldfag no longer with it, or underage and haven't left home. Probably one or the other.

I think the worst advice I was ever given is definitely "don't copy, be original" like what dafuq bruh, it's misleading because I believed if I copy I won't be original and being original and creative was a top priority for some reason. I didn't get much experience because I tried my best to not copy. So now my top priority is to make up for that stupid mindset by copying a lot of studies and drawing.

>>2163128
Not effecting my art work directly but definitely in getting money from art
"Don't worry about online popularity, just get good"

>>2163187

You sound like you are not gud.

I can't think of very much "bad" advice that I've been given. I'm sure everyone kind of automatically disregards a lot of the bullshit they get. That being said:

"Stick with a pencil while learning the basics."

Is advice that's pretty common and I wish I would have disregarded. Drawing with a pen requires more discipline and thinking ahead. Also, for me at least, it promotes the idea of drawing as a process. If I know I'm going to have to redraw or do an overlay over my initial sketch I don't have to worry so much about getting it right. Plus I don't have to spray my sketchbook with fixative to keep my drawings clean.

"If you get good at art, success will come to you"

It's truly phenomenal how many people still believe this.

>>2163698
>Drawing with a pen requires more discipline and thinking ahead.
thats exactly why people advise beginners to not use an eraser, but the shitters here think its bad advice

>>2163700

But if you get really REALLY good, then it will.

I mean it's good advice to prevent kids from thinking they're already good enough and that they can go out there and get commissions. Clearly you have to put yourself out there, but if no-one at all is taking to your self-promotion then you have to ask yourself 'is it the quality of my artwork?'

Often the answer is a resounding yes.

So in that way, the success will certainly not come to you unless you get really good. That's surely what people mean when they say this.

>>2163631
You're a dumb ass and don't even understand how explaining would be a waste. I've been saying that from the start kiddo. You just been asking the wrong questions.

>>2163128
Beats me. I've never listened to anyone else. I'm doing just fine doing whatever the hell I want.

>>2163769
This is actually the worst thing you can do.
Congrats I think you just won the thread.

Unless everyone surrounding you knows fuck all about art, then yea.

>>2163769
Well then anon why don't you show us your art? Show us how far you've gotten.

>>2163769
oh hell no. I have a professional persona. Galleries and collectors and shit don't mix with 4chan.

>>2163772
You know, sometimes it's ok to just teach yourself stuff and just jump in and take risks. I think people like artists that just fucking go with it, instincts and intuition and all that. Please don't take this as advice, just an observation.

>>2163856
whoa, responded to myself. You'll figure it out.

>>2163858
Yea me too I have a ton of art in galleries and shit and but I post on 4chan and no one cares, pic related.

>>2163714
what you're saying isn't nearly as complicated as you think. you're just making yourself look like a jackass.

marketing isn't everything either. fundamentals are important, photoshop is in fact "industry standard".
there is nothing but dumb shit coming from you.

>>2163187
This post is the worst advice. It's basically saying
>don't read /ic/s sticky, there's nothing of value there
>don't study Loomis
>don't learn the fundamentals
>fuck Adobe
Last one could be argued though, since some people are gods with fucking MS Paint, but Adobe Photoshop is still what most pros use.
For the rest, it's like telling you to build a house by starting with the windows: you gotta have a base first, son.

>>2163997
The sticky was written by limbwristed weeaboos and 80lb neckbeards--not exactly an authoritative bunch on art. Loomis is written for 5yr olds who are still new to the idea of foreshortening. And what you call fundamentals is joke for kids who draw furry porn all day.

And, yeah fuck Adobe. It's a shit company, thier the Microsoft of art programs. Deal with it dipshit.

>>2164127
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>Le chicken scratch is le bad!!!
Fuck you

>>2164127
>>2164148
Fishing seasons high these days

>>2163546
Your dad was just jealous that your picture of Bugs Bunny was better than his.

"I'll pay you $60" was one of the worst

I don't think the advice on this board is often very good. It's as if 10 people that all have learnt to say the same "fundamentals in three years you gotta know your shit anatomy paste duck photo board" crap endlessly.

hardly a mention of imagination, originality or feeling.

and it's all geared around computer game and comic book illustration. sadly.

best advice I ever read was

"ignore everybody and do what you think is right"

>>2163165
>2) Don't trust anyone who doesn't back up their critique with their own work as proof that they are better than you and hence able go provide useful crit.

This is one that always gets me. It drives me crazy when people do this "let's see you do better" shit. I've gotten some of my best critique from a non drawfag who can look at my stuff with fresh eyes and tell me what looks wrong from a viewer's perspective.

I can get saying it when some asshole goes "your art is shit just give up" with zero constructive contribution, though.

>>2163264

>No matter what, someone will tell you what you need to improve

That's a little optimistic. More like someone will tell you THAT you need to improve, which is usually useless advice because we all fucking know that, and would rather know what we did wrong and possibly how to fix it.
Still, I've gotten enough good advice here that I can drown out the armchair artists who get their jollies telling everyone else they're shit without actually contributing any critique.

>>2164418
>hardly a mention of imagination, originality or feeling.

I don't think this is something that really even needs to be talked about. Everyone has their own ideas. The thing is, its hard to draw and paint "insert whatever you think about here", when you lack the technical ability to actually draw whatever that is. That's why most people here are focusing on the fundamentals. They want to put whats in their head onto the canvas. And to do that, you need to study the things that will allow you create images - the fundamentals.

The only thing that is close to the imagination talk is when you see stuff about building a visual library. If all you have in your visual library is a blurry memory of a cat, then there's not much you can put on the canvas. But if you have it filled with cities, mountains, lakes, people and a variety of animals, then you have a much bigger pool of mental images you can draw from, thus increasing your ability to make more interesting images.

I don't really believe in originality in artwork so I can't give any input on that, just draw what you like. I don't even know what you mean by feeling.

>>2164444
yeah, that's why I find this place so weird

>>2164418
It's true that /ic/ is an environment that pushes fundamentals but you're pretty fucked if you think that's a bad thing, people need the tools to break the rules.

>hardly a mention of imagination, originality or feeling.

No shit. Being able to properly convey your imagination and feeling is the fucking end game, bro. No one talks about that shit because we literally all know it. A community of primarily beginning artists needs to be reminded how important minding the fundamentals (LOOMIS!) are when delving into our imagination and searching our feelings.

>>2163630
You sure disproved his point!

I had a art teacher in high school who told me that the best advice to becoming a great artist was to use more equipment than I should and that paintings need to consistently layered and smothered on your line-work.

needless to say she wasn't a very good artist.

>>2163128

Don't rotate your images before posting them on an image board.

>>2163326

For a beginner tracing has benefits IF they use it as a learning exercise, but not if they use it as a substitute for drawing.

Tracing a photo reference or a well drawn image will help teach you what lines are needed to convey proper anatomy. It will teach you proportions and it will teach you perspective. But it will only do this if you are mindful of what it is you are tracing, what it is you are doing.

It's a very useful tool for beginners.

>>2164702
Sounds like she's bullshitting you just to get competition out of the way.

>>2163668
I agree, that is basically the amateur's idea of how to create original work. I feel like real original work is a big accumulation of all of the art styles you love. It's like Bill Evans with piano. He copies a lot of jazz artists like Bud Powell, but he also has a soft touch after years of playing classical pieces. And the end result is an original sound that pianists today are trying to imitate.

Ha sorry, I am a pianist.

>>2164767
Stuff like this pisses me off, tracing is a TOOL, its not a beginner nor a pro thing, its a tool you can use to create a piece.

The end result is the difference between beginner and pro, not the tools you use to get there.

>>2164872
I feel like you'd be hard pressed to find a professional who uses tracing as a tool in the production of a piece.

>>2164874
Thats not the point though. Its like saying pen is more pro than pencil. Its a really dumb argument.

>>2164874
As for an example, Drew Struzan is known for using opaque projections for his posters

>>2164874
Are you kidding me right now?
90% of concept art nowadays is tracing and painting over 3D renders.

>Just as I love Greg Manchess' much more recent comment during his talk at the reception for his show at the Society of Illustrators last year: he explained that for one of his jobs he had traced the reference he'd been provided for an assignment. The students in the audience audibly gasped, which made Greg laugh, "Time to get real. If you're going to paint a bottle of Jameson you don't have to distill the whiskey and blow the glass yourself in order to be authentic."

"It's what the pros use"

This is the dumbest argument for making people buy shit they don't need. Why should it matter what some pro uses? It won't make you draw any better. And if you can't work without it, guess what? You got a crutch. And if the pro can't explain what she's doing with using it, then she obviously doesn't know what she's doing.

Conspicuous consumption that's all that is. It's little boys pretending to be profashionals by buying the gear. All that expensive gear and nothing to show for it.

And yeah this is about adobe, deal wit it you dumb fucked cunt.

>>2164903
>And yeah this is about adobe, deal wit it you dumb fucked cunt.
>still being autistic

If it matters that much to you just slit your wrists and escape this cruel world.

>>2164957
Did i trigger your depression?

>>2164903

"it's what the pros use" only matters if you're doing professional work for other people.

It's like over in /3/. Maya is pretty much the photoshop of the /3/ world. Industry standard that most of the professional studios use. Blender can do a lot of the stuff Maya can and it's free. Mayafags say "it's what the pros use", Blenderfags say "enjoy sucking Autowreck's cock".

Blenderfags might have the skills to do what professional Mayafags do but when it comes time to get a job you HAVE to be proficient at the tools that your employer uses.

A blenderfag can "muh open source" and "muh obj." to a studio all they want but if that studio uses Maya then a Mayafag is getting the job no matter what it is the blenderfag can do.

But if you're not trying to get a job and just making art for yourself then there's absolutely nothing wrong with using Blender. It's free, it's pretty powerful, has total shit for a UI, but it's free and powerful.

>>2164968
Professionalism means the quality you can deliver, not what product you used. If you can't produce the same level of work with something else then you aren't a pro. A pro makes due with whatever he needs, not what the other guy has.

>>2163128

'Tracing will help you to improve'

>>2164975
"Just draw a lot every day."

No. The way a lot of artists "practice" isn't practice. It's passive, and it's a waste of time. You don't magically get better at drawing by drawing. You need to actively practice. Drawing =/= Practice. Practice = Practice.

>>2164972

Pro means you get paid, it has nothing to do with quality. Rob Liefeld is a pro, he gets paid to do what he does. What he does is shit but he gets paid to do it. Your average coffee shop has someone in it right this second scribbling some shit on a napkin that blows away the best thing Liefeld has ever drawn but they're making their living as an office clerk not as a professional artist.

You can be the best Blenderfag the world has ever seen and produce amazing works with it, but if you can't use Maya then you'll never be hired by a studio that requires Mayafags no matter what the quality of your work is.

This is why being able to use professional tools only matters if you're a professional.

If you're just producing stuff for yourself then use whatever tools you like, but telling the HR guy at some graphics company that demands Photoshop "Well I'm a professional and only use Gimp because I don't suck Adobe cock" isn't going to get you the job. You can rant and rave about "corporate shills" and "conspicuous consumption" all you want on your blog but if you can't use the tools a professional studio demands for their pipeline then you're shit out of luck at getting a job with them.

>>2164972

>Professionalism means the quality you can deliver

No it doesn't. There are a great many professionals in every field who are shit at their job.

You can "act professionally" without being a professional but at the end of the day your profession is your job, and being being a professional artist means you do art as your profession.

>>2165002
You must seriously be autistic because connotation is obviously beyond you. Professionalism means a certain level of quality that is expected. So that also means your shitty furry rape comic isn't professional tier just becuase other peddos are donating a dollar to your patreon. Your circle jerk economy doesn't excuse the amatuerish quality of work you push off on to public. Get over yourself, senora.

>>2164975
Tracing has helped me better understand difficult poses for figure drawing.

The head of my art department told us in our drawing class that learning anatomy wasn't necessary.

>>2165029

Keep telling yourself you're "professional" because your MLP porn is drawn to the highest quality standards and that nobody in the industry will hire you because they're jealous of your mad GIMP skills and not because you don't know how to use the software the industry uses.

>>2165063
Well, he surely was talking about MASTERING anatomy, or learning advanced anatomy. Right? ...right?

>>2165029

Sorry if you just realized that not everybody agrees that "professional" is whatever meets your vague, arbitrary criteria when it has a very obvious and precise definition.

If you can professionally have someone shove their dick up your ass (which you can), you can professionally draw furry shit for people. It might not meet your idea of what professional is, but that's fucking irrelevant unless you're an employer.

>>2163128
Don't fap with your drawing hand.

>>2165063
>The head of my art department
You know what to do.

>>2165072
So according to you're logi, there shouldn't be a beginner thread. I mean why bother learning anything if the quality doesn't matter?

>>2163192

That's actually one of the best advices I never had

It forces you to discipline and to control your lines

>Don't erase
I was told this when I was still symbol drawing. Not erasing forces you to ignore construction if you want things to look clean and ignoring construction causes you to draw in symbols even more. I become the worst symbol drawing artists ever, I may as well have been drawing ornate rugs. After I discovered how important it was to draw in forms with construction I asked my teacher about it which eventually devolved into an argument about how she totally fucked over the whole class.

>>2165029
Oh wow people arguing over the definition of a fucking word that has more than one definition.

Shitty people can be professional if they swindle someone into employing them. Being paid for a profession makes you a professional.

"Professional" has also come to define a general degree of competence. You can be unemployed (thus not a textbook professional) while creating professional grade works.

I prefer to use "professional" as "being paid to do something", and "industry ready" in regards to quality of work. You can be professional while not creating industry appropriate works, and vice versa. The concept art for Jurassic World. That fucker is a professional, by definition. But the quality was not industry acceptable (as shown by the blowback).

>>2165143
You're a cunt. Drawing without an eraser is one of the best things you can do for line confidence and planning. It doesn't force you to ignore construction. Construction is a concept; how can anything 'force' you to ignore that. You ignore construction out of laziness, not because of the tool in your hand (or the pencil). Drawing with a pen, instead, focuses you to internalize construction and not sit there like an imbecile and draw crosses all over your anime faces. It focuses you on using the least amount of lines in your 'construction' and to realize and aim for the shortest distance between blank paper and full drawing. You cunt. You pondscum. You derelict

>symbol drawing
A buzz word, that's all that is.

If Betty's book is pseudo and you should ignore that and only do the exercises then why use a term with such pseudo orgins? If drawing from imagination requires symbol drawing and symbol drawing is bad then drawing from imagination is the nader of skill, right? Do any of you dipshits think before you post?

>>2165149
That payment doesn't represent just you showing up, dumbass. Is that how you think the world works? You poop out anything and people are just going to automatically pay you for it? Professionals get payed for the quality of their work. So it's the quality that distinguishes them.

>>2165158
I think you are misunderstanding the term.

>>2165075
Does fapping with your drawing hand actually make a difference?

>>2165168
A stereotypical graphic representation. It's not that difficult to grasp. Or would you prefer the football eyeball analogy to appease your autistic ass?

>>2165158
Symbol drawing is a problem because the symbols we have are wrong and we use them in place of what we actually see. The issue of symbol drawing has little to do with drawing from imagination, especially in the early stages of development. It has to do with drawing what you see, and thus the topic is relevant primarily to those who draw from life or reference and not imagination.

Once you've properly learned to see, and have erased your earlier and less accurate symbols, the quality of the symbols you work with going forward [your internal references] improve and so drawing from imagination naturally improves too. But again, in the early stages the issue of symbol drawing is simply that we use it at all, because at that stage our symbols are shit. Once you've learned to see, you can begin to build a new mind-palace of proper symbols to use in drawings from imagination.

Do you think before you post?

>>2165171
Only if you fap while drawing.

>>2165175
You can't even draw, what makes you an authority on symbols? You can't see the wrongness in your own shit. What makes you think you can see it in other's? Oh wait! Is it becuase all the other pedo artistes tell you it's bad? Is that why you preach bullshit? Got to fit in right?

You know what, keep preaching. It makes the competition a whole lot easier.

>>2165155
"Anatomy is a social construct, shitlord"

>>2165184
>fapping with the drawing hand while drawing with the drawing hand
errr

>>2165186
Oh. I get what you're doing.

>>2165190
>not drawing with your dick while you fap
Faggot.

>>2165194
But you don't get symbol drawing?
Mmmmmm.....

>>2165203
I ain't biting boy.

>>2165085
Is your name Reed? Because you're really stretching there.

>>2165213
By "get what you're doing" I meant that I get that you're either baiting or retarded.

>>2165213
My dick is bait, bitch

>>2164964
Not as hard as photoshop triggered yours apparently.

>>2165217
By 'symbol drawing' I mean you're retarded and your works shows it for believing in such a retarded idea. It's not your fault completely, you were just doing what the other retards were doing.

>>2165226
I don't get triggered, I pull them on shutins like you.

>>2165227
What work are you talking about? Have you mistaken me for someone else? I don't even share any work here.

>>2165235
Go symbol draw somewhere else then

>>2165155
Construction is as important in the same way that it is important to measure with your hand or whatever.
You can internalize construction but unless you're kim jung gi you're imaginary construction will lead to your forms falling apart. Just like how if you measure something by eye you will still get it wrong at time and forcing yourself not to measure properly or not to draw construction line will completely hinder you from creating good art. Even Vilppu admits to needing to measure forcefully at times as his eyes are not enough.
Construction lines are very important and you can skip em for small or very basic things but to forbid yourself from using them at all is completely retarded especially for beginner artists.

Does chicken scratch matter that much if it isn't evident in the final work? I see a lot of good artists throw out lines like crazy just to get a feeling or idea or something down. Then, they'll clean it up or paint over it.

Line confidence is definitely nice, but I don't see artists that can jump straight from a blank canvas to a completed piece without making any mistakes or adjustments. If you have examples showing otherwise, I'd genuinely love to see.

>>2165143
you don't have to draw using visible construction.
"don't erease" is just telling you to think about your lines more.
really, you just sound like you want to blame your incompetence on your teacher.
you are the worst.

>>2165158
you have a small point, but it isn't that simple. when drawing from imagination, you can't really call it a symbol anymore, since even the lines and curves by themselves change dramatically from angle to angle.
i'd say it's only symbol drawing if you do it thoughtlessly.
also saying that "drawing from imagination requires symbol drawing" is very misleading.

>If Betty's book is pseudo and you should ignore that and only do the exercises then why use a term with such pseudo orgins?
the way it is used in the book is very clear cut. it basically means the opposite of "drawing what you see"

but you are right in the fact that the term is confusing when applied to drawing from imagination.

>>2165250
Totally. Leonardo da Vinci famously practiced intensive "sighting" during the second half of his career. He would see something at a distance, and attempt to guess it's true width and breadth. He played perspective games, constantly developing his ability to perceive the world around him.

So what I'm getting at is that unless you're gonna go full blown Leonardo and strain at developing near perfect, unassisted spatial awareness, use construction lines.

"Draw what you see, not what you know" is completely stupid, only a moron would buy into that shit.

All drawing is a translation game. If you don't understand what it is you're translating into line, tone, or swashes of color then you don't know art and need to stop right now.

>>2165261
U r liik da oppoesit of smurt

>>2165252
It doesn't matter for the initial sketch, but it's good to get in the habit of drawing clean lines, even when it doesn't matter.

>>2165296
you are such a C O O L and C L E V E R anon!

>>2165292
you're retarded. can you even draw?
if you can't draw what you see then you'll never be able to effectively learn anything new.

if you draw an unknown face/figure from an unusual angle, would you rather pretend to "know" what the fuck you are doing or would you rather observe the new relationships you are seeing?

"drawing what you know" is reserved when you actually know what the flying fuck you are doing.

>>2165261
No, it was his teacher who was incompetent. "Don't erase" is good advice IN A SPECIFIC CONTEXT, and anime copiers are not that context. Get the students thinking in 3D first, THEN tell them how to make their lines better.

>>2165309
Stfu. Visual acuity doesn't equate to better drawing. Keep your stupidity to your self.

>>2165373
>Visual acuity doesn't equate to better drawing
that's because visual acuity isn't even the relevant to what i said.
have you ever made a study in your entire fucking life? please just stop posting already.

>>2165292
What? You say "Draw what you see, not what you know" is stupid, then say "If you don't understand what it is you're translating into line, tone, or swashes of color then you don't know art and need to stop right now."

Those are the same fucking thing worded different. You know what you know because of what you see you dolt. That's the entire point of dropping symbol drawing. Drawing what you "know", when you don't know shit, is the whole fucking problem. You don't magically fucking know anything. You have to perceive it, and that perception be accurate, in order to know it.

>>2164989
whats the difference in your opinion?

>>2165451
The difference is being mindful, having direction and have discrete and achievable goals. The difference is addressing the individual things that you're not happy with, and putting conscious effort into improving those things.

Have you ever seen an artist that has drawn the same shit for 5 years and not improved? We all have. There are a ton of them. It isn't because they're some special kind of retard that simply can't progress any further. It's because they stopped practicing. They still draw all the time, but they don't improve because they don't practice.

>>2165031

Tracing has done jack shit for me.

I learned more in a week studying the fundamentals and doing figure drawing than I ever did tracing. Your better off eyeballing the reference.

Not to mention tracing is so boring to me.

>Don't go to FZD it's just a rip off and full of asian render bots (Advice from /ic/.)

Yea, there's nothing about being a render bot in this school. It's all hard work and design thinking. Feng is a good guy and once you see him draw in person, you will respect him a lot more. Fuck you /ic/ best investment I've made.

>Fail hard and fail fast

I've learned far more from spending a lot of time doing a project properly than rushing something just to get it done

>>2163708
Actually, I still use a pencil.
However I avoid using the eraser top as much as possible, I try to draw over my mistakes instead of erasing them.

You always have to get that mentality of drawing over mistakes so you can make something new.

>Just get this artist tool kit [name here] or program [name here] you'll draw infinitely better with art.

And? I'm drawing with a mechanical pencil which is fine.

Never actually used it but thought it was worth a share nonetheless.

fucking monart school of art during a summer break when i was like 8 or something ruined me for years.

their method was all copying, no understanding or attempting to actually teach the children. included such gems as 'start from the eye'. no, i don't mean 'start by examining the subject you're attempting to draw'. that would have been helpful and reasonable. i mean they taught us to start every drawing of a human or animal by drawing the fucking eyeball.

that single summer engrained a million bad habits in me it took years to unlearn. i still find myself starting from the goddamn fucking eye sometimes.

>>2165471
>>2165500
Preach

>>2165526
>[Name here] is the industry standard though.

Boom, any counter argument is now invalid.

>>2165653
>industry standard is photobashing

Boom, checkmate mode.

>>2165423
>hurrrrrrrr durrrr they da same

No they ain't dipshit. We're not talking about knowing the object in front of you we're talking about know the artistic concepts that describe it. Draw what you see is stupid becuase it leaves out what you're really doing: acting on a cognitively loaded perception. Paying more attention to something doesn't make the drawing of it get better. Most of the time that just distorts things. If you thought for a moment, the best solution is to design relationship. That's how drawing actual works, you stupid fucking child of shit. Drawing designs relationships using line, tone, or color which are given to the observation. Draw what you see, not what you know is for lonely internet art creepers like you.

>>2165232
Sounds like you were born triggered and don't have an untriggered state to draw reference from

>>2164989
Agree. Sometimes I make bigger progress byNOT drawing (for example for a week) and just by watching and observing (EVERYTHING - art, nature, nuances in light during the day, etc). It helps with getting better distance and collect gathered information, at least for me.

>>2165536

Christopher Hart....what else is there to say about him.

It reminds me a lot of the tutorials at dragoart.

>>2165657
>design relationship
what is that even supposed to mean.

>Paying more attention to something doesn't make the drawing of it get better.
just stop. you have no clue whatsoever. you are thinking along the lines of gesture, but "drawing what you see" is an entirely different issue to begin with.

i think you don't understand what "drawing what you see" means in the first place. you seem to think it is natural for people to be able to do it, but that's not the case. tons of beginners and amateurs can't do it, and this is exactly the reason why they are stuck being beginners. because they lack the skill to objectively measure relationships and distances.
and this important skill that they lack, will be missing also when they are looking at their own drawings. that's because their perception (their "knowledge") is constantly fooling them.

common mistakes that result from it are large faces, long noses, long bodies and a general inability to analyse and spot mistakes in your own art.

you are spreading bad information in a thread about bad advice, just because you have this autistic rage against the phrase "drawing what you see". good job you fucking idiot.

>>2165778

Gave it my best shot.

>>2165819
im a bit drunk but it looks like the image is moving
nice motion blur trick on the hair

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

>>2165831

I didn't actually draw it, just saw it and thought it was worth a laugh.

>>2165785
You don't know design means?
No wonder you're here!

>>2165943
you are the perfect example of scum posting on ic.
you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about, even going as far as making up phrases, but you just won't stop talking.

you don't even know what "drawing what you see" means.
spare me with your "design relationship" garbage. what is the relationship between designs and how does it matter to the topic?
stop and never post again.

>>2165158

Symbol drawing is the very basis of cartooning though.

>>2163128

"Visit 4chan.org/ic"

>>2165654
>industry standard is actually hiring someone else to do it for you
Artists, like the rest of the working class, are to be bought when needed.

>>2165971
/thread

>>2165174
You are wrong. Symbol drawing is a term used to describe flat representations that are not drawn with perspective and 3D space in mind. If a good artist draws a cartoon character with highly stylized shapes and those shapes are 3 dimensional and in perspective, then they are not symbols. Even when he draws cartoony eyes that look nothing like real eyes. As long as they are on a 3 dimensional plane and in perspective, they are not considered symbols. Meanwhile if a bad artist draws 2 flat almond shapes representing the eyes that aren't seated on a 3 dimensional plane and there is zero foreshortening when the face is turning away, then it's called symbol drawing.

Why is it so fucking difficult for some idiots to understand this?

>>2166007
I don't no where you're getting "flat" from. "Stereotypical" and "graphical" are the words Betty uses.

This is why I said earlier, "Not even wrong." You dipshits have got it so messed up there's no way to correct you.

>>2165197
Now that is fun with a pencil.

>>2165819
I'd laugh but I seen that joke so many times already, same picture and everything.

>>2165778
I got these at my elementary school book fair and it's actually what got me starting to take my art seriously. Like, I was always better than the other kids, and art ran in my family, but I didn't actually start learning until I got these books. They are the reason I am where I am today. Sometimes you gotta draw like shit to get better.

>>2163165
>2) Don't trust anyone who doesn't back up their critique with their own work as proof that they are better than you and hence able go provide useful crit. (peer review is helpful, even at the beginner level, learn how to parse useful stuff from bullshit)

I can't stand that. It's not about being able to do better it's about what other people see in your art. My first convention (I do comic style art) I made the table, the prints, enough money to meet and chat with celebrities, and left with an extra $50 than what I started with when I decided I was gonna go, and I didn't have a lot of confidence in my art. But people loved it. They saw something in it that I didn't and they liked my style. Shit happens sometimes.

>5) Art School is for suckers
I believed this and went to school for culinary arts because I thought learning a trade would be better. (And I'm a shit hot cook) but when my heart wasn't in it and I spent all my time drawing, I left.
>6) Everyone can self teach themselves
I do believe this one. Mostly because anybody can self teach themselves anything. That's how we learned how to do shit in the first place. That's why there are teachers, because somewhere there had to be the first one, who had to learn it themselves. We are all capable of being self-taught. Some more than others, but it's all possible, and you're right, nothing's black and white when it comes to learning a new skill (especially drawing)

>>2166496

I got them from Scholastic, too. They're what got me into drawing, though I ended up just getting frustrated with my lack of progress and not picking up art again for a decade. I was pretty good at drawing that generic 3/4 anime face though...

>>2166506
You are right about people teaching themselves, perhaps a more appropriate statement would be "Not everyone can teach themselves in an efficient manner".

>>2163356
>everyone trying to make themselves look moody or edgy
I was thinking about that of moody and/or edgy in my pattern of drawing this days. I was thinkinkg in escape of this pattern, do you suggest something?

>>2165541
Kek

>I especially get a giggle out of the self portrait threads, with everyone trying to make themselves look moody or edgy in some way.

Nigga if you aint lookin constipated you aint concentrating enough

>>2163165
>4) You don't need fundamentals to draw stylized

Just know that your stylized art will be shittier (waaay shittier) than that of the people who actually studied fundamentals. But most of all, it will be unoriginal, since you're just copying other stylized art, instead of coming up with your own stylization based on your own knowledge of the fundamentals.

>>2166060
>"Stereotypical" and "graphical" are the words Betty uses.
not that guy but there is nothing wrong with that describtion?
this is just going way over your head. learn to draw first you shitter.

>>2165252
That's not chicken scratch, those are lines of motion and contour alongside restatements, ie he got the line wrong the first time so drew another one next to it.

Chicken scratch is decidedly different, it's bad because it prevents you from learning line confidence, fucks your wrist with rapid small jerking movements and increase the amount of time you have to spend drawing something/ fucks up work flow.
Most decent artists can preplan an entire image in their heads and draw it straight onto paper, it's pretty bizarre the first time you see it.

>>2164440

That response is usually used with the intent of calling someone out who isn't criticizing you to help you, but for brownie points and social status.

It does work for this because it brings the other person down a peg, but at the expense of any good will they may have had for you. I think the real problem with it that people have isn't that it's a bad argument. By definition, criticism from someone in a field is capable of being more damning or valuable because it can point to and describe specific flaws the layman will miss or may interpret as a flaw despite being a strength.

I think the problem most have is that it's a low blow argument since it forces them to accept either saying, no matter how many words they use to guise it, "This is ultimately my opinion, so no, I'm not skilled at art" or "Oh, so you want a dickwaving contest? I'll give you a dickwaving contest!". Most people hate being put on the spot in arguments to argue against their own case/force escalation, so for the same reason nutshots are seen as unfair in physical fights, people see "let's see you do better" as unfair online.

>>2163450
I hate this, worst thing is that I believed this

>>2165075
Right handed but for some reason my left hand feels better.

>>2163450
That's correct though. Especially when places like the srt institute of Chicago will strap you down with 120 thousand dollars in debt and all you did was make a drawing of a semi hard cock on their painting floor that has splattered paint everywhere and your friends all mock you and your debt

>>2163128

The bad: "Don't bother with small details."

The worst: "You're doing great, just don't worry too much with the sketching."

The best: "Always fill the canvas entirelly."

The absolute best: "Work on it until you hate it."