/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

Patreon and kickstarter are great. They allow artists and musicians to reap the majority of the fruits of their own labor and cut out the plurality of the middlemen excluding the crowdfunder itself. As an artist you now have a much better chance of being your own boss than you ever did at any time in history.

What about other sites that are paywalls? Porn sites and such. Or things like movies that are created first then have the paywall at the theater.

I really don't know where I stand with Patreon.

>>2165515
the real winners here are the guys that own it. now lets be real, if people want to give you money you either are a good liar or deserve merit, not my problem. me personally ? if i had a fanbase crazy enough to support me like that?...man i'm so lazy that it would feel like an actual job i would kinda hate it.
>mfw sakimi is rocking nearly 30 thousand shekels a month and barely doing lewds.
>mfw all the big guys from DA are jumping on the patreon ship.
>mfw i'm not big enough to even dream about it.

>>2165520
>What about other sites that are paywalls?
what about them? people tend to ususally leave them and make their own sites, REIQ and slugbox come to mind.

>>2165522
>30 thousand shekels a month
you mean every 2 weeks.

it's 60k a month, anon.

As long as it keeps ShindoL fed, im all for it.

It's another avenue for artists to make money and continue producing content without having to juggle between that and some other job. And it lets fans 'vote with their wallets', and more directly show creators and producers what content they want to see get made, rather than executives just having to guess and calculate whether investing in a project is going to be worthwhile for them.

Of course patreon, kickstarter, and other crowdfunding sites all have their pros and cons, but more options for artists to make money off their work is always a good thing.

>>2165527
no...you're lying..its 15k every 2 weeks...no?

>>2165527
the owners of patreon take a 10 percent i think and the taxes for the puppet masters.

>>2165522
then get good, draw porn like everyone else. lose whatever dignity you have left and enjoy the ride.

>>2165525
A lot of people disagree with patreon because paywalls. But I never really seen people question the integrity of paysites. In the end, it's the same thing. Except one you make yourself, or the other you use a tipjar system to do it for you. I don't see anything wrong with using Patreon different than intended in itself, so the issue has to be the paywall.

>>2165537
patreon was never a "way to help le poor innocent artist" its a business, a clever one by a guy who understands how fanboys think. they need to cover their asses anon or else they will end up like paypall in a court room every month by some business/bank troll.

What about Stripe? From client-side it facilitates direct credit card transactions without needing to make an account and there's no moralism like there is with paypal. There's nothing that says you can't use multiple paywalls too. I don't have any experience with it but it's worth looking into. I've used stripe to donate to a website and it was piss-easy from client-side. I'd use it for myself before I'd use paypal if I can figure out how it works from the server side.

>>2165545
sites that are usually so friendly are filled with Nigerian princesses and dragon slaying Iraqi warlords if you get what i mean, i personally have little experience with those sites as putting my credit card in sites so open scare the balls out of me, they are too small, trolls and thiefs can just sniff all packages that go through that traffic and destroy your life forever. anon its very late where i am and i'm going to bed, don't expect a reply and remember, never trust the jews.

>>2165548
>never trust the jews

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWgxPipnGS8

So I found this.

>>21655489(you)
never mind i confused stripe with a different company and now look like a retarded faggot, but pay pall offers a lot more security in case of things going to hell. i guess its personal preference.

>>2165552
I FUCKING KNEW IT! holy celestia the cut is MASSIVE.

>>2165551
>man-orah

>"subscribe for nsfw variant"

>>2165556
it looks like most of the loss is from taxes

>>2165552
>mfw Patreon is TRASH
Based jews.

>>2165577

Chinpo or Pow or whatever the hell the degenerate calls himself says that Patreon deducts "30%" for taxes...but how can that be?

https://www.patreon.com/about

>Founded in May 2013 and based in San Francisco, California, Patreon was created to enable fans to support and engage with the artists and creators they love.

http://www.bankrate.com/finance/taxes/state-taxes-california.aspx

California collects income tax from its residents at the following rates.

>1 percent on the first $7,749 of taxable income.
>2 percent on taxable income between $7,750 and $18,371.
>4 percent on taxable income between $18,372 and $28,995.
>6 percent on taxable income between $28,996 and $40,250.

and so on...

>California's minimum combined state, county and local sales and use tax rate increased to 7.5 percent (6.5 percent state-only portion and 1 percent collected by localities) on Jan. 1, 2013, due to voter approval in November 2012 of Proposition 30.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Federal_income_tax_rates_for_individuals

If the person(s) that created that graphic is telling the truth, and I believe they are (but maybe following up with them for more screenshots couldn't hurt), Patreon could very well be pocketing a lot of excess funds and misrepresenting this to their users as "taxes" unless there's something I'm missing.

>>2165532

>>2165589
Btw I don't think "sales tax" applies here

>30% taxes
It's can't be true. Even if your Patreon is offical job.

God dam so she DOES?! I though that when you broke it into weeks you usually got half of the total amount.. Holy shit she's making a killing!

>>2165599
I guess if they make over $37.4k it could be.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax_in_the_United_States#Federal_income_tax_rates_for_individuals

>>2165594
no matter what way you cut it, it's so depressing.

>>2165589
Pretty sure it just means the taxes you pay.. most likely Patreon just gives you the money and then is like, welp. you're a Sole Propietership, pay 30% in taxes (You have to pay a lot more if you're self employed. There are more write-offs you can use though)

>>2165606
Yeah I'm basically retarded; I blew myself the fuck out by linking to the wikipedia article that explained exactly why the tax rate could be 30% and didn't put 2 and 2 together until I'd already fucked myself in the ass.

>>2165602
So Patreon deducts 30% from all users so they can forward it straight to the Feds? I guess it makes sense, but it's a bit misleading that Patreon only cuts 5% for profit when it's really 35% cut total.
>>2165606
The infograph specifies they pay their own tax on top of it that lowers it from 75% to 50% or whatever. Plus the 30% is grouped with the other Patreon fees.

>>2165608
No faggot I just said Patreon gives you the money. You have to file your own taxes.

They do sell you out to the feds though.

>>2165603

>tfw sakimi has almost twice the annual salary of my countries PM.

Why is everyone on here so obsessed with what Sakimi earns? Sheesh back the fuck off already. It's gross.

Obviously the worst thing about Patreon is that they display the amount you're earning in huge orange letters at top of the page.

>>2165611
This is true.

People are PUBLICLY DONATION btfo?! Like, think? Plus no one is disssing sakimi if anything I respect\envy the fuck out of her.

>>2165609
I feel retarded. So I'm just misreading the orange bubble under it, and the 30% is manually done by the user?

>>2165613
I didn't say people were dissing her, just that her earnings are discussed way too often. Especially BECAUSE they are donations.

It's really lame.

>>2165522
Sakimichan makes more in two weeks than I earn in a year working.
What the fuck am I doing in life?

>>2165611
nobody cares about what sakimi makes the whole point of the thread is to talk about patreon and its business practices as a whole sakimi was chosen as an example because shes big, notice no kind of disrespect have been used against her, now stop you display of spaghetti and walk away while you're still clean fanboy.

>>2165619
man...Brendan life really went to hell..so sorry for him.

Here's as far as I've gotten with taxes as an artist;

There may be better ways to file then Sole Propietorship. (Z Corp S Corp whatever)

There are a lot of things you can deduct..

Home Office for instance, worth 1.5k in deductions.

Before you even Figure out what your taxes are you have to figure out profit

So Say you made 12 Grand
(Somehow, what the fuck brah, you' doin good)

1.5k For the office. ( I dont know what else you could have tbh)
0.5k How much of that money went for prints?
0.5k Other shit, Like Stamps, or Gas.
0.5k Equipment, Buy tablet?RAM?GFXCARD?
1k Your phone Nigga. Yo Website Nigga
0k Health Insurance, Plane Tickets.
1k Utilities
RETIREMENT PLANS HOLY SHIT

There's probably more shit.


Also; Its Sakimichan fans advertising.. She didn't get this big (stays this big) without word of mouth. One out of 10 anon's looks at her patreon and decides to donate just to fuck with the others.

>>2165628
There are also Exemptions.. you can cut like 4k
Married? that's another 4k.

This thread is relevant to me as my partner and I get money mainly on patreon for the annimay drawings.

How do I not get fucked over by the tax man? In the USA btw.
I've never filled out anything besides a w-2 before.
>>2165628
This helps.

>>2165515
>guides

All of the good guides you'll ever need to MAKE IT are available free on the Internet.
Patreon has only been positive.

Patreon, Youtube and Kickstarter are legitimately revolutionary. Sakimichan or PDP don't change that.

>>2165611
This, there should be an option to hide it

>>2165722
That would be extremely dishonest towards the people who consider supporting you. Many people want to support artists whose work they like and who genuinely need their support, but that doesn't mean they are cool with giving money to artists who already make 20 times the money they make per month.

>>2165552
I understand that the 30% tax is the tax you pay after you receive the money from patreon, but what's this tax specifically? I'm not sure with US tax system, since I live in the EU

>>2165515
to people who have a patreon, i'd note this
>8) haha cool somebody pledged $100 on patreon, stayed that way for a week or so including a vip livestream, then edited their pledge down to $7. I even wrote them a big long thank you message and shit. In other words just kidding about that milestone!!
>No I did not get the money, patreon only charges you at the beginning of each month, yet you get access to the patreon page the MOMENT you pledge. so lots of people use this loophole to pop in, enjoy some perks, then ollie out before they can get charged. It’s literally straight up scamming.

>A common work around that I’ve been seeing (and it has been hella useful) has been the timed restriction of patrons. Many artists will not post the month’s content until after the 2nd, that way patrons are absolutely charged before they get the content. (So March content wouldn’t be available until April, for example). This allows you to work on a pay in advance system, and also gives you a month’s time to prepare all the content instead of doing it month of.

>Another format I’ve seen is timed links. When the month has been charged, the artist posts up a timed link available only to patrons who have already been charged that expires in 15-30 days. Afterwards, the link is no longer functional. In order to get content older than when you started, you’re required to pay the pledge amount for those months. That way you’ll only receive the newest month (and only after you’ve paid).

>Thirdly, it’s relatively easy to shoot Patreon a message with the email and information of the users who are actively abusing the system. They can and will ban the person from being able to pledge period in the future. I’ve even seen one case where someone’s ‘owed’ pledges were forcibly charged as they did in fact agree to the terms and conditions of pledging.

>>2165611
people might give you pledge out of pity if you're not making any

>>2165515
>On one hand, people are getting paid for their work, on the other they're now putting tutorials and guides behind hefty paywalls.
You mean kinda like BOOKS? This isn't a new thing.

>>2165840
>you mean kinda like BOOKS? This isn't a new thing.
for 4chan it is. people share pirate book links. it isn't like you pay to see peoples posts, unless you count Gold Passes.

>>2165744
I'm not sure, since I haven't done anything beyond the regular tax forms, but it seems to be counted as some sort of income tax, but I would guess you just add it into your gross income and the amount taxed would actually depend on how much you made(I could be completely fucking wrong about this, too). 30% tends to be at the higher end of what gets taxed from income IIRC, but there's also state taxes to consider and those vary from state to state so 30% would be a good amount to squirrel away because it's better to be ready to pay more and need to pay less than need to pay more and have less.

>>2165744
As far as I understand it, it's income tax. Usually when you get paid a check it's automatically taxed. But since they're self employed, obviously not.
I can see them hitting the 28% tax bracket. They only need to make 3075 a month after fees to hit that it. Guessing for the 4th update at 700, they made 3,000 that month before fees.

Also completely forgot about state tax.

>>2165860
>28%
I meant 25%. But looking at it closely, it doesn't actually deduct from the first 37k. So they have to have a normal job on top of it to even matter

Also with all this talk about taxes...
Aren't these considered donations? I thought those weren't taxed? Federally at least.

>>2165866
Unless the artist is a charity it doesn't matter.

The federal/state government would tax the bums on the street too if they could.

>>2165866
As I know they can force you to paid taxes. You should register Patreon as official workplace for taxes. This guy from pic >>2165552 is honest citizen (lier).

>>2165875
*can't

Large Corporations pay no taxes because they understand how exemptions deductions and deferrals work.

It's very problematic for a young man who makes paintings for a living to use the same system, as it was lobbied for and built for by the corporations.

>>2165661
this this this this this. Who the fuck cares what artists decide to paywall? You don't need ANY of it.

>>2165899
Exactly it's like saying
"Its preposterous that Private schools exist"

All this tax stuff is making me scared to try being a self employed artist. Seems so confusing.

>>2166571
Nah, because you'll be so poor you probably won't pay taxes ;D

If you're concerned about the complexity of it all, just make sure you devote a few days next tax season and do some research. Do them yourself and use tax software. You will quickly and easily learn all you need to learn. If you've ever played dungeons and dragons, you might even enjoy it :D

Not sure how it is in US (I'm from canada), but if you fuck up your taxes, the taxman will just literally fix them for you and charge the correct amount. Also, you're such small potatoes that nobody cares if you fuck it up anyways, you'll never get red flagged. Probably no human will ever see your numbers.

>>2166616
>but if you fuck up your taxes, the taxman will just literally fix them for you and charge the correct amount

in clapistan you can be jailed and fined for more than you'll ever make in your life.

>>2166571
It's not terribly complicated, at least in US. Well, at least as far as a regular 1040 goes, I've never gotten into the shit that goes beyond that. Some of the directions are pretty fucking poorly worded, but the booklet that comes with the form does tell you everything.

>>2165594
Okay, this triggered me
Its fucking ridiculous that people who actually design characters get way less money than people who draw fanart of the same characters

>>2167732
Nothing ridiculous about it.
Supply and demand, baby.
She giving your average pleb exactly what he wants, and no matter what /ic/ says she is a decent artist, with an appealing style. Appealing to the average person at the very least.

Saki is also the pewdiepie/bill gates/whateverthefuck of Patreon.
She is literally the 0.01%.
Nobody makes what she makes, she isn't the standard.

>>2167752
the way i see it, she found a breach in the modern copyright law.
just like
>pewdiepie/bill gates/whateverthefuck
Thats a common success story tho. Someone finds a gap in the law, exploits it, makes cash. Not something unique for art field

>>2167767
What the fuck are you talking about? There are hundreds of thousands of fanartists out there "exploiting the law" just like she does and none of them make that sort of money. So clearly there must be another reason why she is so successful, something that makes her stand out among thousands of other fanartists, something you refuse to admit because it goes against your narrative of "hurr she's just a hack exploiting the law."

>>2167770
I'm not saying she doesnt have any skills
But that doesnt make her right
It is not changing the fact that the law is not perfect either

>>2167732
>people who actually design characters get way less money
Proofs

>>2167812
>But that doesnt make her right

It does actually. Regardless of the outdated laws, companies who own the copyrights to those characters WANT fanart of their work to be created. Same how game developers pay youtubers to play their games. It's free advertizement for them. Especially when the artist / let's player / streamer in question has a huge audience. Everybody wins, except salty amateurs on /ic/.

>>2167770
Her secret is the constant advertising on sites like 4chan.

Literally just stop talking about her, she will fade into nothingness.

>>2167817
>Proofs

the Sony leaks a while back showed that the top salaries for senior concept artists were around 250k$-300k$ per year. Still a respectable amount of money, but nowhere near Sakimi's 720k$ a year.

>>2167827
>Her secret is the constant advertising on sites like 4chan.

You might be slightly retarded.

No one on 4chan talks about her except for /ic/, one of the smallest boards on the entire site, full of frustrated artists who aren't remotely the audience who'd give money to fanartists on patreon.

>>2167831
Normal fags browse here too. GUESS what, this isn't the only place she advertises. In fact, her word of mouth from her fans is almost everywhere.

But yea just because /ic/ is one of the places means I'm slightly retarded.

>>2167812
>>2167829
And I can assure you that she didn't get to where she is by going on obscure 4chan boards and complaining that people in other industries where making more than her. I don't get the obsession, in no way does her making that much prevent you from making a living with art,other than you get jelly and never do any work for yourself.

And it's not a secret how she promoted herself, DA was a big one. I would always see her stuff on the front page even years ago before all this. It's just using social networking sites and having a look that catches peoples eye, she just happen to hit the art lotto and get way more followers than most. It's not fucken rocket science. Who gives a shit if she is doing things against the law, what are you the art police? Punishing her won't make you more wealthy.

>...250k$-300k$ per year. Still a respectable amount of money....
>Entitled moron with no concept of what money is and how good a salary even half of that would be.
You'll never even make a 3rd of that.

But whatever keep being butthurt about what someone else makes, one day all your dreams will come true.

>>2167837
Oh I don't doubt that she advertizes the shit out of her work on facebook, tumblr, Deviantart etc, but you are retarded if you believe any successful pro would ever bother "advertizing" their work on /ic/ when they have a thousand times the reach on social media.

>>2167850
Can you explain the phenomenon where /ic/ Can't shut the fuck up about her then?..

Cause If anything I'd just like the sakimichan/kron threads to fucking stop, literally worse then the kardashians.

>>2167848
>But whatever keep being butthurt about what someone else makes

Not sure why you even quoted me there you angry little fuck. I'm not butthurt at all, I was simply answering a guy who was asking for proof regarding the salary of people who design characters. I have nothing but respect for Sakimichan, her marketing skills and her dedication and I think it's great that we have artists in this industry who can make a ton of money without being incredibly skilled.

Why are you so frustrated and angry though?

>>2167852
>Can you explain the phenomenon where /ic/ Can't shut the fuck up about her then?.

Gee, I dunno, maybe it's because she makes a ridiculous amount of money and that naturally makes people want to talk about her? Are you seriously an idiot or something or how can you not understand this? It's not exactly a phenomenon that people who pursue a certain profession become interested in others who excell commercially in the same profession.

>Cause If anything I'd just like the sakimichan/kron threads to fucking stop

Well good for you then, they stopped months ago and whenever a thread is being posted, it's deleted within half an hour. Not sure what alternative reality /ic/ you are visiting but I sure as hell don't see Sakimichan threads anymore.

>>2167866
>>Currently Posting in a Sakimichan thread.
>>Doesn't realise

O-okay anon.

>>2167732
what is really baffling is that there is such a huge demand for fanart. and it's generic too. i really don't understand it. is it all just marketing?

>>2165522
Fuck off you sound like someone who does shitty manga drawing

>>2165515
the only difference after release is that poorfags got jelly about sakimichan and tons of wannabes made profiles for zero profit income. basically fan art porn portrait artists win with patreon people dont give a fuck about anything else

>>2167907
Well. You know the characters, so you instantly like them. Would you rather hang a photo of your family or strangers?