/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

cont:

>Art school also presents different ways to think and create—a wider view. Tom Garrett, Professor in the Design Department at Minneapolis College of Art and Design, says, “[Students] are encouraged not just to mimic others or polish existing work. Instead, projects are developed to challenge and to push the student outside of their comfort zone. A good classroom experience should be a safety net and allow for failure as part of the process of experimentation. It’s about taking creative risks and maybe seeing multiple solutions they didn’t even imagine.”

>Outside of this classroom setting, we aren’t challenged as hard. That’s my problem with the sentiment that everything you want to learn is online—you could force yourself to learn different disciplines, but the reality is that a lot of us don’t. As a result, we tend to fall back on what we already know.

cont:

>I’m sure I got my first design job (at Simon & Schuster) due in large part to having RISD on my résumé. It sure as hell wasn’t from my portfolio...

What do you think? It's a bit of a long read, but do you agree with what he's saying?

I take issue with clowns who think that just because it worked for them it's going to work for everyone else. People who can't be more open minded are the fucking worst.

>I’m sure I got my first design job (at Simon & Schuster) due in large part to having RISD on my résumé. It sure as hell wasn’t from my portfolio

Why would I listen to this hack?

Penguin publishing are idiots

I cant afford an art school and i want to achieve a lot. Should i quit then?

>>2141586
No

>>2141551
Bullshit. I bet he's a terrible artist.

as someone who left art school after a year and a half it depends on what you are trying to learn.

My first year was all foundation and practicing drawing and painting. Second year was more focused on writing and elements of work like composition and storytelling.

I was already good at that stuff. What I wasn't good at was drawing, and it was clear the focus wasn't going to be on drawing for the next 3 years. So I left and started attending a local art guild that does figure drawing.

Art schools nowadays are NOT full of the best young artists in the world. They are full of people who want to become artists, not people who are already artists.

I received the most praise in all of my classes, and as you can see from pic related I wasn't very good.

You could chalk that up to teachers being better equipped to see potential and who is a hard worker, but honestly I was getting a lot of advice to stay in school, but that it wasn't necessarily something I needed to get better, just something to get a job later with a degree.

And even then a lot of teachers had the sentiment that most art related jobs dried up once the internet and digital art came around. And they weren't teaching digital art, which is fine because I enjoy traditional work more.

There were people there who were in their 30s who were there to make a career change, and they were very dedicated too, but the average 19 year old is scraping to get by on assignments

>>2141614
moreover, silly and delusional

>>2141614
His art is pictured here: >>2141551

>>2141636
Yeah, I dropped out of a respected art academy too. I thought my classmates would be more serious, since it's hard getting accepted. But nope, they're all shitty amateurs who are either copying machines or pretentious fags who know nothing about art.

The professors were pretentious abstract artists too, so it was awful. That was in the illustration department, mind you.

Art school could be a good thing that will lead you to success or the worst decision that put you into debt. You should choose a school that will teach the skills you want to acquire and the experience you want to get out of. The least you want to get out of an art school is a delusional mentality when in fact the school has not teach you anything redeemable and you believe that you've reached a pinnacle and have become a master, and that your art deserves to be as valued as master paintings (in reality it's actually crap) because you have a degree from a chump art school. But that is if you really want to invest your money instead of working at it yourself, it's really your choice if you want to go to an art school or not.

>attending a respected college in which the students are all vetted, talented, and dedicated

These are few and far between.

>>2141798
There's maybe like 2 such schools and barely anyone can afford it

>>2141551
>gimme your shekels and you'll totally become a great artist, I promise

I literally just talked to a veteran writer in the field of animation at the Convergence general pop-culture convention in Bloomington, Minnesota a couple hours ago at a panel and she told me right to my fucking face that it was "absolutely possible" to get into animation on the merits of ones portfolio alone (after she brought up Calarts and I conversely brought up the expense associated with attendance there). I feel awesome right now and starting in a few months I'm going to quit my job and lock myself in a vacant storage unit with Loomis, Vilppu, Williams and Blair for a few years. Even if I have to spend my lifes' savings being unemployed and ultimately don't make it at least I won't be in debt in the end, eh?

Wish me luck bros!

>>2141779
Can you post the rest of that? I seem to remember a few other pages.

>>2141894
fuck off loser

>>2141902

>>2141551

I think he is right. You can always throw in a year of self teaching afterwards to further your technical skills. But missing out on the networking and mental stimulus of the art school experience is kinda shitty.

>>2141894
did she say it was absolutely possible for you specifically. or just possible in the grand sense of what is possible for an already amazing animator.

Good to know that I will always be shit because I cant afford to go to some shitty school

>>2141912
Possible in the holistic sense of course. If I were accomplished right now I wouldn't have implied my needing to do human and animal gesture studies out of an industrial size refuse bin for a few years!

>>2141911
There are no guarantees even if you do attend one of these schools that you'll "make it", whatever that means on your terms. The only guarantee in that instance is that you will go into debt to the tune of tens if not hundreds of thousands of dollars. I think that when you're 18 you should leave school and really give art your fucking all for at least 4 years and if you still can't hack it then maybe school is exactly what you need, but why spend the money if even the slightest potential exists that you won't have to? You can still go to art school when you're 22 or even 30 in most cases (I heard Gobelins or whatever the fug only accepts applicants up to age 24) so why not go then if absolutely necessary? The school isn't going to disappear for fug's sake.

I would have gotten 60k debt if I had gone to art school. No Ty. I'm pushing myself though everyday.

>>2141595
He actually should tho. You cant be a pro on your own

tfw you're in Europe and the costs of art schools are 100~1000x smaller than in La Murrica

>>2142012
>going to actual brick and mortar school in 2015 when you can just git gud at home while working a real job for actual pay from 7-3

>>2141894
Fifteen years ago, I was studying for a Diploma in Telecom and Networks. I am pretty good in Programming but I was terrible in other classes, so I'd sit at the back with my best mate and we'd draw.
In second year, he somehow managed to convince the head of departement that his main year project would be an animation sequence to advertise for the school. Absolutely nothing to do with what we were taught, but aaaaanyway!

The point is, my mate wasn't classically trained, but he just picked up a pirated copy of 3D Studio (as we called it back then) and with his self taught skills in drawing and 3D, did what he could. Which wasn't much, but still, a beginning.

Thing is, we live and studied in Annecy, which happens to have one of the biggest festivals for Animation, so he just went with his little portfolio and big balls and just did a lot of talking with companies and would you believe it, he's been working for the last fifteen years as an animator and now art director, making 3D movies (ok, for businesses, but still, making fucking 3D animation, with a Telecom & Network diploma).

In contrast, I had done classes at the local Fine Arts school since I was 14, and easily got accepted in the school when I did apply. So my personal experience tends to confirm the bit about getting challenged and put outside of your confort zone. And certainly I learnt some very valuable stuff there that I still haven't seen anywhere online.
But I'm still a fucking programmer/technician. I never got that carreer I was dreaming of.

At the end of the day, your diplomas are pieces of paper. You wanna be an artist, just go do your best and keep at it!

>>2142014
git good at what? digital painting? what if you want to throw pottery or fire raku, sculpt stone, do bronze pourings, print lithographs, etc? art school provides you with the facilities and hand-on instruction to do those things, plus is can provide free figure drawing classes and a community of artists. being part of an artistic community might seem pointless to neet-minded noobs on 4chan, but it's invaluable for creativity and growth. and no, /ic/ doesn't count as an artistic community.

>>2142032
art school gives you jack shit now. Learn on your own with the Internet, get a real job that starts early in the morning like I said, and just git gud over time. Nothing anything those teachers there can say that you cant do on your own. I mean, you look at your work and ask yourself...is it fucking horseshit?

You just piss away time and money at these schools.

>>2142032
with the money you spend going to art school, you could make your own art studio in your house. Them providing the facilities is the bare minimum for all the cash they take from you.

>>2142036
>art school gives you jack shit now.
depends entirely upon the school

>Nothing anything those teachers there can say that you cant do on your own
you'll notice my post was about facilities and community, I didn't even mention instruction, the value of which depends upon the teacher.
>you just piss away time and money at your schools
if you piss away your time at art school, that's your fault. If you piss away your money, also your fault. Get a fucking scholarship.
>>2142081
some programs pay YOU a stipend and full tuition. you can fund a degree without loans, it just requires you to have your shit together.

Don't be stupid unless you have mommy and daddy's money to burn

>>2142101
>29,464.68 biweekly for digital fanart posters

This man needs to be tried at the Hague

>>2142101
>not posting the image where she states that she
>draws and paints original characters

>>2142105
LOL I WON'T SELL OUT

I would love to, but i live in a filthy third world country where the majority of the people really despise western art and favors their own traditional unaesthetic shitty primitive art.

>>2141901
Actually I just got that page off this forum just for safe keep and a constant motivator, sorry, but I think you can get the actual book off of amazon.

>>2141995
Dave Rapoza did it.

I think the main benefit of art school is that it motivates you to work hard and for longer periods of time. Anyone can learn what they teach you in art school with an internet connection, but having a teacher, like having a fitness teacher, will do wonders for your motivation and help you to go further than you would on your own.

>>2141551
He's not too old but already outdated, the community is not at the halls of colleges and galleries anymore. Any wannabe artist will have a website and a direct line of communication with fans and other artists, which is even better since they can reach the entire globe. Just look at any college class, people are too busy interacting with people on the internet to stop and talk with people around them.

Since the networking is being done through the internet, a degree is only worth for some specifics areas and let's be realistic nobody is aiming for those jobs to begin with.

So in the end a degree will help you get a job if you missed your main goal, that's what i'm getting from him. News flash, if you're not going to reach your goal, you may as well get a functional degree instead of an art one, while grinding art on the side. You would be surprised on how many people do that and make it, the knowledge it is out there, no generation prior had such easy access to information, you just have to get out of your lazy ass and just do it.

tl:dr People seeking validation for their art through college, don't do it.

>>2142120
Chances are teachers won't give much of a crap and simply validate whatever garbage you spew out regardless of it's actual worth. Why? Because they also got the exact same useless bullshit degree when they in reality wanted to make it big. This is the difference between a fitness instructor and an arts teacher. A fitness instructor wanted to be at the gym and help people out.

You want fame? You want recognition? You want to be that 1% who make 20k biweekly?

You won't get there by throwing money at some half-wit who will only help you by validating any product you make.

>>2142101
>what is a scholarship
they're out there, use 'em.

>>2141779
please, please post the rest of this. this is great

googled image, got nothing.

>>2141551
i hate these threads usually because there are anons who will just scream "portfolio", as if their self taught studies/techniques is -exactly- what these companies, or clients want. or as if no one good, or better than them exists that is going in with a degree, AND awesome, and relevant portfolio

a portfolio is good, but having a degree behind it just makes you stand out. says you can do the work, and on time.

i know, debt and everything, but you cannot get blood from a rock lol and you only live once, so you might as well explode, instead of spurt

A lot of people are afraid of truth, and thats ok. we all arent meant to make it.

All your heros in the entertainment industry, the top concept guys came out of art center.

https://medium.com/i-m-h-o/dont-go-to-art-school-138c5efd45e9

Go to art schoool, dont go to art school. I"m a sheep

>>2141901
>>2142154
I found what seems to be most of the comic, the second page is crap quality.

>>2142171

>>2142172
>>2142171
>>2141779
Last page :v

>>2142171
Just watch the movie instead
>Art School Confidential (2006)
Beside the criminal plot of the movie, it's a pretty accurate showcase of art schools.

Also watch Goldsmith: Is it art? (BBC Documentary) about students in britbongstain.
>https://youtu.be/KIa-NtGV-ZM?list=PL6DDA9B3923E07D6A

Fuck art school. I went and that shit tears you apart. Me being able to be happy doing what I love was more important than stupid, bullshit professors giving me "validation" and status. I'm not usually the type of person to be angry at criticism, but you just get so sick of being told every fucking day that you're going to be a failure. Seriously, to anybody reading this, if you put in the same effort that you would going through a rigorous art class, you can do the same by building yourself a foundation based on what YOU actually wanna do instead of some fuckwad who thinks he knows everything and a degree.

>>2142105
eh, post it? Never saw it

It really depends on the school.
Do your research, visit test-courses (if there are none just ask if you could test some), talk to the students, the staff and the most important thing: research who is teaching.
There is no real point to it when the teacher isn't working in the industry. Only those who work can tell you what you actually need to get a job.
If you have the chance, talk to the teachers, try to find out how motivated they are about teaching.
Last but not least, you gotta ask yourself. Are you the kind of guy who fits in to Art School? There are different learning types, everbody learns different.

>>2142012
I'm from Europe and European schools suck dick. "Free" colleges are the same shit as "free" community colleges in the US. It's not worth it.

>>2142159
And you're obviously a brainwashed american who's been told all his life that you become a hobo if you don't get a college degree. I bet you're complete shit at art. I'm a professional freelancer and no one ever asked me for my degree, dozens of other much more professional artists say the same.

>>2142310
Community colleges aren't free in US nothing is. They are basically college prep schools now.

Protip: You can just lie and say you have a degree. No one ever checks anyways. People are lazy and trusting. If you say you say You have BFA or an MFa they won't don't it if your portfolio is at least decent.

>>2141551
He's completely right in that the company you keep is integral to your success as an artist.

However, art colleges are very expensive, a lot of them are very bad, and overall it's not worth it over putting in the effort to cultivate your own circle of ambitious peers.

>>2141551
>with some of the best young artists in the world.
Lolwat.

>mfw I went to art college

>>2142389
How's that debt?

>>2141551
First he agrees with some of the criticism against art schools, but then he says the experience is worth it because you'll be surrounding yourself with likeminded artists.

So what would be wrong with learning at an atelier? Or learning under a working artist?

Later he implies that the prestige of his university is what got him his first job. Also it is implied that it's not what you know, it's who you know. Mind you this is all geared towards a corporate type job.

Doesn't that paint a depressing picture about making living as an artist? Your work will be denigrated simple because you didn't come from a respectable degree granting institute. Why is that the accepted norm? If the corporation is already playing favorites in the hiring process what's to say that the rest isn't as bias or unfair?

The entire article boils down to saying that he agrees that art schools are worthless but the social connections harvested over a few years makes it all worth it, and since the world is already set into believing the myth about having a degree, what else can you do?

Personally I think we need more mavericks in the world, more entrepreneurs to prove that kind of blatant prejudice wrong. We need more artists to go out on their own and show what that kind of bigotry is actually doing. We need to start supporting the independent artists more. What that guy painted was basically cronyism.

I want to graduate in design in a public university, if my money is being used to pay for it then I might as well give it a try. I also hope to work while I am there.

>>2142310
I'm from Europe and mine is really more than decent :v
Ain't free, gotta pay like 350€ per year, but costs less than sneezing in an American college

>>2142115
wow, just one guy

>>2142471
>wow, just one guy
wow, youre an idiot.

>>2142477
elaborate

>tfw asian
>tfw parents flat out said they would not financially or emotionally support me if I went to art school
>tfw probably would have been cut off if I went to art school
So I majored in a STEM field, got a really good job, practiced art on my own time with help from online resources, and now my job is stable and I regularly sell art online or even do those weekend art shows from time to time. It wasn't my original dream of becoming a famous artist, but looking back, I doubt going to art school would have made that happen either. Just my two cents.

>>2142470
What country are you from?

>>2142522
You don't believe investing all the time and effort you've spent on university purely into art would have made you a much better artist?

You regularly sell your art as a hobby, but you don't think focusing on it exclusively would have made you a great artist?

>>2142470
I live in central europe, mine costs around $1k per year, and its also very good.
The only thing that is sometimes painful is how skilled some of my classmates are...

>>2142650
Not the anon you're responding to but, would you rather:

A) Grab a STEM with a 85% chance of landing a safe, steady job. Draw on the side and probably have a 1% chance of making it big.

B) Draw exclusively and have a 10% chance of making it big otherwise working retail.

>>2142655
Draw, duh.
>would you rather take a risk with your art or give up and treat it the way you treat anything else you are semi-interested in

>>2142664
>would you rather take a risk with your art

Kek, you're delusional m8. World isn't rainbows and sunshine, the whole "pursue what you love" bullshit has clearly brainwashed you.

You only live once, and I don't think anyone should gamble when the odds are stacked against you. But who knows, maybe you'll be that 1% that I'll envy. Maybe.

>and treat it the way you treat anything else you are semi-interested in

Who says I can't be fully interested in it? Clearly the Asian guy is selling things and enjoys drawing very much.

>>2142674
>hurr durr
topkek faggot, I can, and I am

>you can't pursue your love
>Clearly the Asian guy is selling things and enjoys drawing very much.
10/10 wisdom

>>2142644

Slovenia, the local uni gives 350€ ranges per year, Ljubljana uni has stuff circling about 400~500€ tops

>>2142674
>kek, m8
>>2142682
>Hurr durr, topkek
Both of you are faggots

>>2142682

You're mad because your whole premise is shaky at best and you don't want anyone shaking the foundation.

>10/10 wisdom

Thanks for taking my shit out of context you moron, the Asian guy IS working on the side as a hobby and making it. You said that working on it on the side is akin to;

>give up and treat it the way you treat anything else you are semi-interested in

How the fuck can that be the case if the Asian guy said he's doing it on the side.

>topkek faggot, I can, and I am

You've clearly proven that you're fucking delusional. Nothing less from someone who whole-heartily believes in chasing the dream.

>>2142674
>clearly brainwashed
>Clearly the Asian guy is selling things and enjoys drawing very much.
Clearly you're talking out of your ass.

>>2142689
>you can't chase the dream
>the asian guy manages to do it on the side
make up your mind

>>2142690
>>2142694

Learn to read niggers

>So I majored in a STEM field, got a really good job, practiced art on my own time with help from online resources, and now my job is stable and I regularly sell art online or even do those weekend art shows from time to time. It wasn't my original dream of becoming a famous artist, but looking back, I doubt going to art school would have made that happen either. Just my two cents.

>practiced art on my own time with help from online resources, and now my job is stable and I regularly sell art online or even do those weekend art shows from time to time. It wasn't my original dream of becoming a famous artist,

>practiced art on my own time with help from online resources...It wasn't my original dream of becoming a famous artist,

>>2142697
>you can get good enough to "regularly sell your art" on the side
>you can't make drawing your job while working on it full time
Pick one.

>>2142694
I think that poster meant pursuing art full time rather than as a hobby.

>>2142702
Because the Asian guy could not have made it and still have a fucking 80k job.

Meanwhile if you pursued your "dream" without a safety net you're fucking stuck working retail for life.

That was my whole premise to begin with, it's not sane to say "maybe I'll be the 10% or end up in squalor" instead of saying "I'll have a steady job and see where art takes me as a hobby "

>>2142707
Whole lotta assumptions with nothing to back it up, anon.
I'm gonna go and make an assumption of my own: you gave up like a coward in the face of the prospect that you might not make it, went the route of least resistance, and are now trying to justify yourself through shitposting on the internet.

>>2142686
lel I'm from Slovenia too. First time seeing a Slovenian on here! The schools fucking suck, the professors are incompetent pretentious fags. Colleges are the worst.

>>2142719

>Whole lotta assumptions with nothing to back it up, anon.

Top 10 worst College Majors

>No. 3: Fine Arts
>Unemployment rate for recent grads: 12.6%
>Median earnings for recent grads: $30,000

>Unemployment rate for experienced grads: 7.3%
>Median earnings for experienced grads: $45,000

http://www.forbes.com/sites/jennagoudreau/2012/10/11/the-10-worst-college-majors/


Stay delusional and retarded

>>2142727
Any retard can graduate from an art school, you literally just need to show up. We were talking about actually working during the period.

>>2142740
No, we're talking about risks.

>would you rather take a risk with your art or give up and treat it the way you treat anything else you are semi-interested in

Why take a risk without a safety net? I suggested you pursue dreams as a hobby once you've established yourself with a solid foundation. A Degree in Fine Arts is not a solid foundation, if you are adamant about learning to be a fine artist you're better off not grabbing the debt associated with it anyways and teaching yourself.

The price of art school will never be justifiable for the at best debatable benifits over just going full autismo, drawing 10 hours a day in your dingy bedroom unless you are obscenely affluent

>>2142747
That was posted in response to
>You don't believe investing all the time and effort you've spent on university purely into art would have made you a much better artist?
>time and effort
>effort

My foundation is my skill, and even shitty as it is, it makes me enough for the time being. Contrary to popular opinion, selling paintings or working in ca isn't the breadth of the field. Literal 5 minutes' worth of work earns me thousands because people buy stupid shit. That 1% that keeps getting brought up earns far more money than the average STEM graduate, and is a ridiculous comparison.

>>2142764

>time and effort
>effort

Time is something indispensable in relation to money, how you waste your time is among the biggest risks you take in life.

That effort he's talking about was placed in the foundation for a STEM degree, then after that he placed his efforts in art.

That 1% I mentioned is 10% firstly and the 10% is the millionaires you're talking about. My question to you originally was

A) 10% chance to win the lotto, but failure leaves you with nothing

or

B) 1% chance to win the lotto but failure leaves you with 80k a year.

Also

>Literal 5 minutes' worth of work earns me thousands because people buy stupid shit,

Please tell me the frequency in which that happens and if it is reliable at all.

What should a retard who wants to go pro do? I'm broke as shit, can't afford a decent sketchbook, let alone a computer (I get my shit in from liquor stores) and I have a ged. I can't ask my parents either, neither are working, and are living off welfare and disability checks. Is there any chance for me?

>>2142774
But failure doesn't leave you with nothing, do you have any idea how big and varied the field is? The only way that can happen is if you decide you're either making it as a fine artist (or whatever specific thing) or nothing at all.
Saying "I'm gonna be a famous manga artist" while you can't draw for shit at 30 is retarded, but it's not like STEM is that different when you're a retard.

>5 minutes
Meant "over X amount of time", not immediately. Like over couple of months. In some dealings, quantity is king, quality doesn't matter.
It takes great skill (or luck) to make a good living doing just one thing, but with art in general? It just takes being more resourceful in the sense that you go after money rather than work for a salary.

Seriously though, coming to an art board and discouraging people from pursuing art is both retarded and a dick thing to do.

I don't think anime is something to "waste" your time on, but I don't spend my time convincing /a/ of that.

>>2142793

>But failure doesn't leave you with nothing

You're right, it leaves you with a median earning of 30k a year.

>Seriously though, coming to an art board and discouraging people from pursuing art is both retarded and a dick thing to do.

Nah fuck you, I'm here because I enjoy drawing. I don't go out of my way to tell people that getting a degree in arts is bat-shit retarded unless a board like this pops up and/or people like you show up, and when I do, I don't do it out of malice.

Some truths are tough to swallow and one of them is that not everyone is gonna make it. Not everything is a little paradise. We need to get real here because it's better to shatter that illusion while you still have time. If you understand the risks and rewards and choose option A) that's your choice and like I said, more power to you.

If you are the 10% I won't resent you, I won't wish you malice. I'll be happy for you or simply not give a fuck. So go fuck yourself for even suggesting I'm being a dick.

>>2142801
You're acting like everyone who tries to get a STEM degree makes it. The only difference is that with an art school, you get a free degree because lelart.

>illusion
Try to appreciate the irony here, you don't know shit about art. You have no experience, all your conclusions are based on what you read on the internet. There is no 10%/

>>2142811
Of fucking course there is no 10% but there is no way to quantify it since it's based on a number of factors.

If what you're trying to say is that you "making it" is based on skill alone then you don't need to get a degree on Arts in the first place.

>>2142821
Well of course you don't.

I'm thinking about going back to get my MFA so I can get a few focused years to work on my art and dig deeper into art history and criticism. I have no intention of teaching, but the MFA will look good on a resume so the diploma is nice too.

>>2142515
Its not just one guy. Look up some interviews with concept artists.

>>2142310
No, I just understand the concept of having more than one gun because I'm not a retarded foreigner, who thinks he can win a gunfight(awesome, relevant portfolio+degree) with just a knife(awesome portfolio).

theres truth to what I say, and it triggers you. this is okay too. I'm not knocking your ability or dream(like you do me), I just have bigger aspirations than you do, which require proof of my expertise, and my dedication.

you will always have those minor freelancing gigs, and thats great! just not the level I wish for myself

>>2143672
no

>>2143723
And thats why get called an idiot.

I've been offered full tuition for a 1 year post grad in digital graphics at a relevant British art school.
But I can't decide whether or not to take it. It's really interesting but it won't improve my job prospects and I'm getting a bit old to do another year of being totally broke.
I don't even know why I'm typing this, I'm such a mess over it.

Went to central saint martins
pic related was my illustration tutor
https://www.google.com/search?q=anne+course&biw=1195&bih=948&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=ZaOaVf2KBIbB-gHGqYaQCw&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ#tbm=isch&q=ann+course

>>2143723
Hell fucking yes actually. And I say this as someone who attended art High school and Art University. Only something smart I've learned in those 8 years were in High School and those were the basics of Drawing and Painting and shit like that. I guess anon can learn those too with some local courses for far smaller price than one college. Everything else? It depends on you and you alone. You can have a teacher screaming at you every week to do your assignment in the end it doesn't matter if you did it or not, it matters how much of thought and will you place in your work. And with todays internet, you have ALL SORT OF INFORMATION available just at the click of your mouse. Only reason college and uni seems like a must do for a artists because it gives you fake feeling of obligation to do something. If you do art just beause you enrolled in shitty art school then sorry your art will be shitty too. What matters is what you do in your mean time and how you apply your knowledge.

That said, it also heavily depends in what you enroll. If you're gonna pick strictly design school or illustration course, that's far far better than going in a fine arts, because fine arts is bullshit (sometimes I wish I didn't even go to Uni, that place single handendly destroyed joy in making various doodles and sketches, you could say I was shamed for it, and why? BECAUSE IT WAS ILLUSTRATIVE)

so yeah, fuck art school. >>2141586

>>2143797
And holy fucking shit. I've been thinking lately how come I can't go back to random doodling like I used to when I was younger, I used to do various sketches way way more often while I was in High School and only now I realized I've been gradually fucked by university and my own doodling amount got only smaller and smaller.

I kinda wanna scream now.

>>2143797
>>2143809

you dont do those sketches, and doodles because you now know unless they are for something(practice, designing something you will actually use now/later), they are meaningless now. and a waste of time, and resources when you can do better, and bigger with more knowledge

its not art school that does that to you, its growing up that does it. you realize your SHIT isnt good anymore, and thus must put a better effort which is tougher.

you dont randomly draw because you are honing your skill for when the time is right.

>>2143819
Ok here is thing. Truth is that I grew up, but that doesn't mean my brain has to freeze everytime I think I should simply sketch things like people, do studies etc. It's like I have this feel like I'm constipated and like I'm afraid to even do, it let alone post it online. I feel... stiff, you know?

Also I spend awfully a lot of time on my painting, and sometimes I spend whole day either in PS or Zbrush, I have no problem shitting out fully polished stuff. Sometimes I wanna have fun with doodling and. I. Fucking. CAN'T.

Every fucking time we had studies to do (whereas it was figure drawing class or something else) whatever I did make, it was never enough. Professor, instead of telling me what should I fix or do, he would simply say ''your stuff is illustrative, and that doesn't fly here''. God knows I experimented with whole bunch of ways, but most of it was always fail. And by the time I was done with uni, I realized too late what was the problem.

>>2143843
Why... are you, typing like this, y'know?

Is what you are saying useful or relevant to anyone else? Go blog somewhere else.

>>2143866
Because I feel like it?

And I thought this thread was discussing relevancy of art schools in general, I think at least part of my ''blogging'' is relevant to this.

If you don't have anything smart to add on, don't bother replying either. :^)

>>2143866
Fuck off if you don't want to contribute.

>>2141878
Is SAIC one of them?

>>2143788
Jesus Christ what the fuck am I looking, does she at least know how to draw on the side?

>>2144299
It was but it went down hill in the last 10 years. Obviously there is CalArts, Ringling, Art Center, a few on the East Coast, but other than that they all suck.

>>2143809
>>2143819
I kinda agree. I had sketchbooks in my arts high school & college, but I feel like...I didn't take them as seriously as I should have. Now I carry my sketchbooks religiously. There are means for me to study & practice. Even if I don't have them I will find something to draw on.

>>2142847
>but the MFA will look good on a resume so the diploma is nice too.
niggu whut?

you're literally the only person that says getting a masters is a good thing

If artists go to school chances are they already don't have enough gumption to make it on their own or think they have to be taught by some one else when we have the internet and thousands of tutorials/art books/studies/examples online to study from and learn on your own. I think art school is a sham if you want to be how do i put it.. the best. if you want to be like everyone else and make commercialized art go for it, but if you want to be a davinci or monet or whatever you fuckin like do it on your own.

>>2145624
Who's "the best"? Mullins went to Art Center, iirc.

>>2145624
>if you want to be like everyone else, go to art school
>but if you want to be like these specific examples of "everyone else", do it on your own
>implying da vinci wasn't taught how to paint in an art studio by a painter
>implying monet didn't go to art school
Ironically, this is something you'd know if you went to art school.

>>2145854
Art Schools in the past weren't like today.

>>2145871
You never went to art school, how would you know? Take a moment to think whether talking out of your ass does good to you or anyone else.

I don't know how it is in burgerstan, but you do the same things now that you would 150 years ago.

Fuck all this faggotry

I'm leaving my design school the moment this semester ends.

FUCK ART SCHOOL.

DON'T GO TO ONE.

I WISH I HAD NEVER JOINED. I learnt nothing and I just wasted money

I'm afraid of debt.

It cripples.

>>2145896
>>2145934
don't go unless it's paid for... get your game up and get some scholarships. if you're still in hs, just make good grades and shoot for an academic scholarship. stay in-state for your undergraduate if you have to.
>>2145610
getting an MFA is absolutely necessary to teach college classes. for working artists, it's a huge boost on the resume, but the biggest draw for me is that it gives me a few years to focus on my art in a creative environment.
How is an MFA a bad thing?

Fine arts is paid by government mostly, so at least its not a waste of future (debt), just a waste of time. Graduated days ago thbht :l

>>2146088
forgot to point, at europe

>>2146064
it really depends on the school, i guess

I was looking around for MFA programs (im about to graduate college and parental pressure) and most of them are hella modern/abstract/conceptual. to me, this is a waste of time :-\ others, i dunno, this might be the game.

for the record, I probably own't be going to get an MFA until I really feel like it's the next step in life.

>>2141551
>Art Director at Penguin books:

guaranteed he spent 100k for art school. of course he's not going to say it wasn't necessary now.

>>2143694
Literally the only art degree that matters is one from calarts if you're looking to go full disney.

Maye if you intend to become a famous modern art fag a degree somewhere else might matter.

>>2146124
>I probably own't be going to get an MFA until I really feel like it's the next step in life.
that's smart. there's no reason to go for an mfa right out of undergrad, most students aren't ready for that step yet. get a few years in working on your portfolio, grinding, getting shows, etc. before looking at grad school. and don't go to a school if the professors' and students' work isn't what you're into (though I know it's tough to find programs that aren't saturated in derivative non-objective art)

>>2146473
do you realize that the art world is much, much larger than an animation gig at disney?

>>2141558
Depends on what you want.

If, like most people on /ic/, all you want is to do perfect paintings in the style of the old masters, then art school is nothing for you. It would probably be better to find some old dude with the knowledge, and try to get an internship or something.

But if you want to do some actual interesting contemporary art, that just might sell on one of those hip NY galleries, then art school is mandatory.

>>2148052
How do you teach someone to make 0 skill art? Can't even children make it already?

Aren't they the best abstractionists?

If Art school could teach you the formulae for producing hip shit art, they wouldn't teach it to you, they'd be producing these piss paintings in droves and selling out.

>>2142171
Here's a better quality one.

>scholarships
Let's say I went to college for something completely different and messed up my gpa and dropped out. Is it even still possible to get an art related scholarship?

>>2146089
No shit

Meanwhile us burgers will have to take a ride on the big roulette wheel of debt and petty scholarships

>>2148107
Some schools may or may not offer scholarships based on your portfolio.
A friend of mine keeps applying to ringling and they keep offering her 10-20% her tuition.. Not worth it to me but it's something.

There are other options for scholarships you just need to look.
Most colleges offer scholarship information.

>>2148063
>Aren't children the best abstractionists?
not unless they have some inborn understanding of color, line, shape, form, composition, texture, etc. abstract art relies on the same fundamentals as representational art.

>>2148143
Don't all of those stem from our instincts?

>>2141636
A local art guild? Guild in the traditional sense, or like a weekly figure drawing class?

>>2148147
there's a reason that the abstract art of a professional artist accomplished those things better than a child can, it takes training. who starts out already knowing how to make a good composition and color palette? a few unnaturally gifted artists, perhaps.

>>2142369
>art colleges are very expensive,

i go to hunter college, the 7th best school in the world, and pay practicly nothing my man..

>>2148837
1. Define "practically nothing"
2. Tell us how u do u fuggin' faggut

>>2148837
>>2148839

Seconded, pls delivar

I'm MFA 2 Calarts....making great love with super intelligent women is already worth the cost. Not to mention talking about Art on deep levels every day with people from all metiers.

>>2148914
>>2148837

Warhol went to a no name technical college, Picasso dropped out of college after one semester, Van Gogh didn't go to college. I'm going to college, but if you think that it's essential your deluding yourself. A lot of the best thinkers have came out of left field. Those big art colleges actually just make everyone think the same way. Anything you lean from a current professor is going to be 30 years out of date. Some of my older profs are still teaching abstract expressionism, the younger ones teach post-structuralist stuff. None of that shit relevant at this moment, when the people who are still teenagers right now grow up and take over the art world they aren't going to give a shit about that. Your probably better off seeking out working artists and thinking for yourself about the time and space your in instead of absorbing the beliefs of your out of date teachers.

>>2148803
>>2148914

You have nothing to brag about another words, that brand name on your resume can't buy you're actually going to need. Intelligence, the right experiences(very little chance that includes experiences you'll find in college), and an ability to solve the puzzle and innovate before anyone else does.

>>2148928
Van Gogh went briefly to the Antwerp Academy of Fine Arts, but left because of the academic formalism went against his own views.

>>2148928
Why is everyone so obsessed with being Van Gogh or Monet, and using their experience as an argument? To get into a college like Calarts, or the other top schools, you already have to be an incredible artist...If you become famous or not, thats another story...and when it comes down to it, it does not actually matter. What I am saying, is that the experience of being at at top school is like being in an incubator with many great minds, artists and people. Are their methodologies outdated? Maybe, but you have to be a twat to not be able to think for yourself, and question what you are learning. It's like there is some FEAR of wasting your time learning from outdated teachers, or not getting enough LIFE EXPERIENCE in the "real world". Well, those are just immature fears. What matters is that you are feeding yourself and growing as a person and artist. I find that I can do this much better in an academy than when Im alone, with no mentors or colleagues. Do I need to learn how to survive on my own? How to become a successful artist? The school of life already teaches you that...so you might as well enjoy a great school to learn the rest.

>>2148928
And furthermore, (You said you go to college as well, so I think you will understand me.) Here is some wisdom my father gave me when I started at Calarts, and was HATING what my teachers were saying, exactly because I thought it was outdated, or not to my tastes. He said," Well, if at your time at Calarts you learn, in detail, and fully, what you DONT LIKE, you will end up being stronger in what you DO LIKE. And if a director asks you to do X or Y, you can do it without hesitation, because you learned how to do it." I think this attitude is really beneficial. Instead of being antagonistic all the time.

>>2141551
Aren't ateliers like Watts' own just as good if not better for learning?

Got no ateliers and the only art thing at my nearby uni is the typical art class.

>>2149215
I'm sure CalArts is a wonderful school, however it simply isn't an option for a lot of people. Artists and animators don't make that much money even at the elite level ($48k-80k) when you compare elite software/hardware engineers from CalTech or Elite Lawyers from Yale, Harvard etc. and yet our formal education comes at a similar premium despite the incredible risks involved in choosing a creative field to pursue. Many of us latch onto successful self-taught artists out of simple necessity my man.

I'm sure few people on /ic/ would outright turn down the chance to work "in the industry", but fewer of us still want to risk becoming ostensible slaves to debt and interest because of our spiritual passion, either.

I think that it's pretty irresponsible for someone like that to encourage people to get into crippling debt in order to a degree to apply to a job that they would, probably, not even get hired for. It just seems a little crazy.

People only use college degrees to weed out applicants. Usually if you have money you have a better chance of going to college. If you don't then you are fucked.

>>2149243
>>2149252
Get a better job then, it's not that hard.

>>2149243
Yes, I understand. Calarts was not an option for me either. I lived in Brazil, with parents who could not spare me 1 penny to go to art school. But I decided to try my hardest either way. I ended up getting in and receiving great scholarships because I worked hard for it. If the debt bothers you so much, I would advise to work your ass of and cover yourself through scholarships. Its a lot of work...but Im telling you its absolutely worth it. So...it is an option for everyone..as long as they are willing to find creative ways of paying for their tuition. I totally see the benefit of latching onto successful self-taught artists! And I agree that it can be a viable option. However, why limit yourself? Why limit yourself in this lifetime? I really think the whole secret is to dream big and trust that the world is actually in your favor instead of against you. You will survive...you will find ways of supporting yourself...you can follow your passion, and learn a a lot. Will the going get rough? YES! For EVERYONE it does. People with heaps of money, and people scraping to get by. What matters is that you are doing what you love. That's it. If you find yourself in a situation where you cannot do what you love...get creative and find a workaround. Thats what I did with the fact that Calarts cost so much. I can really do what I love there, and it's making me love what I do even more. There is no pricetag on that.

>>2149260
Mind if I ask you to share the artwork/portfolio you gave them that granted you a scholarship?

>>2149254
>Get a better job then, it's not that hard.
So I'm guessing you make more than 80k a year?

>>2149265
For me (I'm in the Acting program) It's based on your audition. I had to do 3 monologues. So I worked my ass off to do work that would impress the judges, and which was also interesting to me. Also, I used fastweb dot com. Its a place that offers you a whole bunch of scholarships in whatever you seek. Sign up and do a whole bunch of applications. There is no secret to success other than just doing it. (God isnt that Nike's motto Ughh anyway they do kind of have a point lol.)

>>2149254
It depends who you are and where you live. People who have lots of privilege, usually, have a harder time recognizing it and as well as empathy.

>>2149260
It's so easy to get a scholarship...it's why everyone gets one!

>>2149254
Oh you

>>2149260
I'm very happy for you, you knew what you wanted and you went for it with your all and you made it. I'm still working on getting to the level where I think I can be accepted at such a school. I only recently discovered art and animation is what I want to do a couple years ago and I'm kind of old now (29). I'm going to quit my job and study hard for a couple more years and maybe I'll go for it if I think I can't make it on my own. I am kind of worried that I'm locked out of a lot of potential scholarship money because I was born here, I'm white and I'm old as balls tho lol

Thank you for the nonetheless inspiring story and don't stop following your own dreams

>>2149276
>>2149260
I'm with you Anons. My dream job is animating in Japan.
I have a long road ahead and only started drawing at 18, 20 now I only got the figure down. Animation is a whole different thing.

>>2149280
Dude you don't want to animate in Japan. Animate for yourself. Animators in Japan make well under the equivalent of the minimum wage here. It's sad.

>>2149282
I know about that, it's sad but just the thought of animating something that thousands will watch...

>>2149276
Source on that pic?

Also, people try to use that minority argument all the time, but shouldn't your beef be more with legacy and rich students? They are the ones that take up the most space.

Even that Abigail who's case is going to the Supreme Court wasn't denied entrance into University of Texas. She was offered to take classes that would raise her grades to get into the school. Not only that, but they still let in way more more white people than anyone else according to their own stats.

>>2149282
mandatory

>>2149276
Hey bro, thanks, that means a lot. So, actually being an American you have a million more scholarship opportunities. Your age? Don't let is phase you. There is nothing to be done about that. I would do my best anyway, and "fukk da police". Now, if you keep on worrying about being the right level to get in, that will hamper you from actually getting in. Most schools, companies, employers like to see people who demonstrate big balls. If you dont have them- FAKE IT. Lastly, have unrelenting passion and drive to make the Art you want to see in the world, and there will always be an audience for you (and usually a paying one)

>>2149276
>that chart
>acting like being white is "that bad"
>wahhhhaahaha im not the preferred asshole to fuck anymore get away shit skins

you only have other white people to blame.

>>2148928
>Warhol
Stopped reading there.

>>2149290
>that bad
>implying I implied anywhere in my post that being white is anything other than fucking awesome

I don't care about any of that tangential shit for the record I was just pointing it out my butthurt brown friend, there are a lot of set asides for darker hued individuals my pasty ass won't be able to take advantage of because companies are desperate to hire people that aren't caucasians or regular asians to show how progressive they are, that is a fact. Don't take it as a personal attack you pussy nigga, I'm happy for anybody that makes it and I don't care how they did it, and of course I know there are plenty more scholarships and grants available I will (hopefully) be able to take advantage of regardless assuming I'm not too old or make too much money ($20k after taxes; poor but perhaps not poor enough).

>>2149311
>>2149286

There are scholarships for people of different ethnicities, but the an majority of scholarship recipients in the US are still white. White people just get upset when they are reminded that they are white.

>>2149332
Affirmative action is still a thing though

>>2149311
no ones afraid of being attacked

>butthurt brown friend
>ironic use of nigga

You remind me of all the white people who are openly afraid of me for no reason at my school. They either refuse to talk to me, outright move their seat away from me, or try to "relate" like how you just tried to lol

>>2149340
>implying whites dont rule by nepotism
>wahhhahahaa no one else should be able to even get a foot in the door! REVERSE RACISM

>>2149350
What are you even saying, that all white people are related? Like the dean of the school is gonna look at my pastey skin and yell "WELCOME BROTHER".

I'm white and poor. I don't have shit for connections. As far as statistics go, I'm the least likely demographic to get accepted anywhere.

>>2149354
Ouch. That's a failing attitude, my bro.

>>2149357
Not really. It's just motivation to work harder.

>>2149354
>things i never implied
>he thinks affirmative action is bad
>thinks no such thing exist innately for whites within their system

maybe you should stop being so shit tier that even your people dont want you

>>2149360
Never even said affirmative action is bad. I'm just stating the obvious.

also

>maybe you should stop being so shit tier that even your people dont want you
>your people

What is this, the Kongo? Everyone's a mutt in America, bro. Dog eat dog. Survival of the fittest. Nobody's gonna help me up just because we have the same shade of shit on our skin.

>>2149347
>or try to "relate" like how you just tried to lol

If you look at all of your interactions with others through that lens of "they're just doing x because I'm black whether it's good or bad lol" you're going to have a bad time my man, try and relax on that shit, I can imagine it's hard though because I guarantee there is at least some truth to it a lot of the time. A big reason why a lot of white people or others may not appear to be comfortable around you is because academia and the media race bait as hard as possible, too. It's hard to level and relax with someone when you have "OY VEY YOU AND YOUR AWFUL PEOPLE PERSECUTED THIS POOR MAN FOR 6 MILLION YEARS AND YOU'RE STILL DOING IT TODAY HOW CAN YOU LIVE WITH YOURSEEEEELF!" rattling in your skull all day. Also it's notable that a lot of people have genuinely had bad experiences interacting with other groups (https://www.youtube.com/v/9CGxDk4Hsks ; https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2013/crime-in-the-u.s.-2013/tables/table-43
) and they do develop prejudices as a consequence, which unfortunately becomes a burden that a lot of completely innocent and good natured people have to bear.

>>2149359
Oh, well if that's what motivates you, cool.

>>2149364
>tl:dr

>>2149370

>>2149008

No he didn't, formalism didn't exist in the mid 1800s, that started after cubism at around the turn of the century

>>2149215

It's not fear, it's just an annoyance because everyone goes to college, comes out relatively similar to everyone else, and then has this ego about it even though they haven't done anything. Be proud of your work, your talent, and ideas, don't be proud of who you paid ass loads of money for a piece of paper.

I'm planning to go do a couple courses at Glasgow School of Art soon

>>2149543
You're insane. See >>2141901

Here's the portfolios and personal websites of your graduating 'peers' of 2015

http://www.gsamfa.com/links.php

http://www.kathrynashill.com/
http://erinbusswood.com/
http://roicarmeli.com/
http://www.jamiecrewe.co.uk/
http://www.elkefinkenauer.com/
https://kelglaister.wordpress.com/
http://morwennagracekearsley.co.uk/
http://malcolmandleel.work/
http://adamlewisjacob.com/

This is over half of them, I absolutely refuse to bother posting another.

>>2149544
That said graduate Heather Lander's stuff is pretty aesthetic. Would look cool in a bathroom with black ceramic tile everywhere.

Here's something interesting for you guys
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vpxrY0O40Ic

>>2149544
>http://www.kathrynashill.com/

>kathryna
>shill

But seriously. That stuff just isn't art. It's expression at best. Modernists raus!

Art school is good if it is for free or nearly free. Opportunity costs are usually still worth it.

American pricing system + curriculum (if the cliché is true) makes it a suicide mission, though.

>>2149555
rip western art education

>>2149533
Sorry, I was using formalism as strict adherence to traditional forms. My mistake, it's a loaded term.

>>2149555
This is giving me feels.
Feeling even slightly bad for being a hack who just wants to draw spaceships.

>>2149340
And the biggest demographic that have benefited from affirmative action in the US are...wait for it...:

WHITE women

What a coincidence.

>>2149354
White poor people always blame everybody else for their issues and then vote for the rich white people that NEVER have their interests in mind.

Just, because you dismantle affirmative action isn't going to help your cause. At best, maybe 10 more unqualified white people may be able to make it to college.

>>2149654
>women
>coincidence

Not really

>>2149544
holy fucking shot

>>2145851
Uhhh, Do you know Mullins right? The guy is like a billion years old already. What >>2145624 is saying doesn't apply to Mullins, but to the actual generation wich has EVERYTHING they need at the reach of their hands. Knowledge, video tutorials, software, global online networking and promotional tools, and also a miriad of affordable hardware.

I say that the traditional school system is already obsolete for the new generation of "millenials". And it's not because they are "smarter", but because the new generation it's getting pushed against the wall, with bad economy, no more credit, no more jobs, with no affordable options youths seek for new answers and ways to learn and survive.
The fools will get trap in the loan deathtrap, or even worse.

>>2146089
lol Have a heart m8

>>2144918
Which is the cheapest

I already have a lot of money in a computer science degree. But I want to get a degree so I can be a more legit artist. Especially if I want to exhibit

>>2151661
I go to Cooper Union and pay no tuition. They've instated tuition for incoming classmen now, but its still affordable. I know an underclassmen whose parents make like 70k a year and he pay 4000 in tuition. If you can get in, I'd definitely go. The quality of student work and motivation is unparalleled from what I've seen. There are also some state schools that have great programs like VCU and UCLA. Even if you don't live in those states, you can get citizenship in a couple of years

>>2153519
> I know an underclassmen whose parents make like 70k a year and he pay 4000 in tuition.
This would actually be a good amount. My parents are trying to get me to return to college but cash is a bit low.
How is the school? Is it like horror stories or do you actually learn? Do you need to take "core" classes like math, english, etc for the degree?
I got academically dismissed while going for a different degree at another college so I'm having trouble figuring out how this works.

doesnt that woman who wrote "drawing for the right side of the brain"said you could git gut in a couple of weeks? why would you go to school

>>2153701
She suggests can learn to draw from observation decently enough in a couple weeks cramming I'd say, but you will not "git gud" without serious practice and investment in time.

>>2149283
>>2149280

if animating is what you love, then you better learn CG too.

If you're more into the drawing aspect, then I suggest you get into storyboarding.

>>2153701
More like learn to gitgud in a couple of weeks. I'm still unsure on if art schools are good though.

>>2153827

Let me ask your guys' opinions on this
I'm going to be graduating high school soon (18) and I want to learn classical painting (Bougureau, Caravaggio etc)
All of the art schools I've visited seem to have lacking painting courses and they don't seem to be pushing technical skills.
I'm now shifting gears and looking at atelier and academy programs.
Should I choose an atelier? Will I learn enough to be a professional painter and maybe instruct a class for $$
Thanks

>>2141551
>finish 2 year a-level game art course
>huge waste of time and energy
>"I'm not getting into uni with this shit"
>told by tutors that I have a better chance if I do a foundation course that the college conveniently does.
>do the course, wanting to expand knowledge on animation and illustration
>they harp on about how I will learn that shit
>placed in illustration class
>was constantly told not to illustrate and do something more conceptual
>in the end I fill up my portfolio with personal work
>offered unconditional from my ideal uni
>half arsed the rest of the year

Also had to put up with a trans tumblarina who called everyone cis and only did fan art. And a girl who I'm fairly certain is autistic who wanted to be a "Game Artist" and just did what her tutor told her to do for the whole year, which was not game art.

>>2158798
forgot image.

>>2146486
>Art world larger than Disney
kek
Disney is the art world man.. the largest entertainment company out there. They own everything. A job at Disney is pretty much every artist's dream.

>>2158896

It would be my ultimate failure. I don't have a problem with artists who work there but I do think that their almost universally uninteresting people

>>2141551

yeah this guy sounds like a complete shill

on the flip side of it

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1rmP-xDiSQ