/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

Westerners try to use it as a crutch.

>>2142378
i wonder
but there are artists that can draw using a good looking anime-ish style with good anatomy and interesting stylization.
but there aren't that any that i know of that can do the more abstract simple symbol based kind of anime

>>2142386
this is a huge part of it. it's similar with people who draw shitty sonic fanart. it looks kind of easy so they attempt to draw it. but in the end they can't do it because they can't draw.

>>2142378
>why is it that westerners can't into anime?

I've seen a few cunts on /ic/ pull off some pretty neat animu. I don't see why you think westerners cant into it unless you have some ridiculous weeb standards.

Mark Crilley's pretty good

>>2142406
meh. it's a little stiff though. lacks expressiveness

>>2142378
Because you only see the cream of the crop that actually makes it out of Japan.

>>2142408

What about this guy from the tumblr thread?

>>2137279

>>2142408
Wasn't being serious m8

>>2142411
there are a few people on /ic/ on that level. but it's not quite there yet. also you don't know wether they're asian or not.

>>2142415
Oh so now it's a race thing?

>>2142415

He's got pretty fucking good english and his pen/real name is andrae which isn't very asian.

>not quite there yet

Post an example of what you think is something thats 'there'. Anime is pretty wide m8

>>2142418
Uh, obviously? Everybody know Asians are better artists, even though many mullinsfags are in denial.

>>2142421
When you stop being a god damn weeb then we can have a serious argument. Until then I'm just going to say there are plenty of artists who can draw good anime style that aren't Asians.

I'm a westerner and here's my try

>>2142378
why is it that you must start this thread every month? who the fuck cares?
in fact, there are several western animators working in japan for your interest and they are doing just fine.

>>2142424
That's kawaii

>>2142418
well, i wonder if it is. maybe i'm just biased because i've seen more people that couldn't do it than people that could.
then again people like saskia gutekunst convinced me that it's probably just a skill thing.

one other big thing is that people don't focus as much on "lines" (animation and comics) as the east. most of animu styles come from drawing with lines. in the west painting seems to be a bigger trend. most people eventually dvelve into painting, even if they were focusing on lines before. just like this guy >>2142411
and in the end it results in a different approach.

>>2142420
kek. asian can have western names.

>>2142378
there are quite a few good ones
pic related is a german artist.

>>2142429
>asian can have western names.

Of course, I'm a chink and my real name is Stephen but something like Andrae is very european and you'd never find any sane asian parent naming their child that.

>>2142422
>When you stop being a god damn weeb
I personally think that Japs are low tier asian artists, koreans are better and chinese are our lords and saviours. Not a weeb.

>>2142435
I agree but you're still wrong that only asians can draw anime well.

>>2142378
because westerners suck

Its like you've never read manga, the Japs suck at it too.
not saying it can't be done well or anything, but if mangaka are anything to judge by, getting successful with the "anime" style isn't that skill intensive.

>>2142422
do you have some examples? not trying to be confrontational.

>>2142441
comics are harder than you think. it's not just one image, you have to keep churning out images while staying consistent and expressive.

OP here

Here's a random example i pulled from my art folder. The anatomy, hair, and facial structure has this distinctively Asian stylization to it. I don't know if there's something about having more exposure to it or what.

>>2142411
A nice effort, but as said before, not quite there yet.

>>2142422
Have any names or examples? I'm genuinely interested.

>>2142449
Yes comics are harder than you think, but 4 koma aren't and a lot of japanese mangaka aren't that particularly amazing with their paneling or consistency.
Not saying they're bad, but people like crilley are actually better.

>>2142452
You only think that way because you see Japanese text.

Stylization needs the same rigorous training that anything else would. You don't just do life-drawing for 10 years, then learn anime in a weekend. You gotta hunker down and draw anime for years as well.

>>2142454
>but people like crilley
you're just plain wrong. crilley can't even draw expressive faces to save his life. he's just winging it through symbol drawing.

4 koma or not has nothing to do with it.

>>2142456
That's bullshit.
If someone like Mullins would spend a month learning the rules of "japanese stylization", he'd be able to create sketches that look exactly like a nip made them.

It's all about understanding forms, anatomy and perspective.

>>2142462
>Hasn't seen ONE's drawings
ahaha. stop being such a fucking weeb. there's plenty of Japanese artists that are god awful, and even the worst people in the stylized thread could do better than.
>4koma or not
4koma are easy as fuck to write and don't require much paneling skill. and consistency isn't that big of an issue when you're drawing half chibis or whatever.

Its so good when you know the anatomy well and you can just experiment with animu styles to make it look great.

I dont know that feel

>>2142452
A different example. The faces have an "authentic" bishounen look.

>>2142456
I was trying to something like this in my previous post. It's a part of your culture, and so you naturally start drawing in ways that are associated with anime.

>>2142463
You got any examples of that? Just list one cartoonist/anime artist who did such a thing. He doesn't even have to be good or average, I just want an idea of what this method would yield compared to the norm.

>>2142468
>ONE
>a webmanga with lazy drawings.
what kind of stupid argument is that supposed to be? you think all japanese are born with the ability to draw?
of course there are japanese people that can't draw. that's not the issue. the question is why westerners always arrive to a fundamnetally different style when they stylize (tumblr, big noses etc), and wether they can also achieve an genuinely expressive animu style.

>paneling
>having anything to do with drawing skill.
it's an entirely different skill. see >>2141853 >>2141845
just stop. you don't understand shit.

>>2142476
Are you literally a fucking retard?
>paneling has nothing to do with art skill!
it might not be directly related to drawing but its an important skill for mangaka and such, which is the largest area of "anime" art. The fact you're ignoring paneling when talking about an art that is primarily used to animation and COMICS is an indication you are the one who doesn't understand shit.
>Japanese people are naturally better!.... unless they're not.
no shit, there's plenty of good western "anime" artist just as there's plenty of bad ones, just like in Japan. Saki (if you want to consider that anime) is probably better than 99% of the anime artists in Japan.
>fundamentally different style
because tumblr isn't the entire western stylized art world you dumb fucking retard. and if you notice disney isn't actually that far off from the anime style. There's distinct differences sure and the style if different, but how they stylize the proportions and anatomy are very similar.
its also what you grow up with, westerners grow up with cartoons japs grow up with anime so it effects their style somewhat, if you showed an american anime from birth they'd develop a more anime style.

>>2142476
>an genuinely expressive animu style
You posted madoka concepts. I'm pretty sure there are a few people on /ic/ who can draw close to her artstyle if not better >>2142452 (even I can dohhoho).

Get off the gook casserole already.

There are western artists that got good at anime, so it's possible. Why not just ask them how they got good? If language isn't a barrier, why not just ask a japanese guy what he did to practice?

You already know that [your favorite artist] didn't come out of the womb with art in their hands, so it's fine just to do what they did to get where they are. No need to blaze a new trail.

>>2142378
Why do weaboos always make shitty threads like this?

>>2142497
Because they're shitty people.

>>2142386
First reply was the right one.

One of the best anime styled artists I know of is black. He's also great at drawing realistic humans. People working in the anime industry are trained professionals. They know how to draw, and therefore, when they try to stylize, you don't get shit like this.

Another issue is people drawing what they THINK is anime, so the end result is a parody. It's a mish-mash of different styles with the end result looking like Frankenstein's monster rather than a natural journey towards stylization.

Epic thread.

>>2142481
>paneling
again, you're talking about comics. but the topic is not comics, it's style. get that through your head already.

>saki
saki can't really draw anime freely without references. she's an illustrator. she's kind of like the chinese. it just isn't interesting.
there is a difference between her shit and stuff like pic related.
and again, this is not about drawing skill, this is about STYLE. achieving a expressive style that is consistent, one that can be used for comics and animation. it's that kind of thing.

and again, i didn't say that westerners couldn't do it. i was just wondering about it. like i said before, people like saskia kind of show that it's possible. also i don't know if archvermin is asian, but he also definitely got it right.


>>2142483
i didn't post that.
but you can't draw better than that person. same with the majority of /ic/. again, it comes down to consistency and expressiveness.

>>2142508
>but you can't draw better than that person. same with the majority of /ic/

maybe you think that way but 1 thing is for certain...I draw better animu than you OOOOOOOOOH

>>2142476
>the question is why westerners always arrive to a fundamnetally different style when they stylize

Because, here in the west, there is no anime industry and most western artists who are good at what they do will create a style that ressonates with western employers. Same how there are few asian artists who draw in Disney style because the vast majority of job opportunities in their country requires them to draw in anime style. Are you really too fucking stupid to get that?

That doesn't mean westerners can't learn to draw like japanese or that japanese can't learn to draw like westerners. Also, do you honestly fucking think that indicating a nose instead of drawing it in a more detailed manner is some impossible shit that only asian artists after years of training can do? Are you mentally challenged?

Pic related, western animu drawing.

>>2142523
and here is a japanese artist who works for Disney. Now pray tell which one looks more "anime" to you.

>>2142502
Got any links, m8?

>>2142508
>saki can't really draw anime freely without references
What's your point here? Your favorite anime animators almost certainly also use references. References are how you git gud and steer clear from drawing like OP's image.

>>2142525
I'm so turned on by those strokes.

>>2142502
So do these look like "Frankenstein's monster" to you or like "a natural journey towards stylization"?

>>2142406
>>2142412
>>2142424
>>2142432

>>2142525
I can only say that Jin Kim's art looks better, period.

>>2142525
You should have posted a western disney animator and say he was japanese so you can see if this fuckin' dweeb would say "wow so expressive" simply because he thinks hes jap. There would have been many keks.

>>2142530
mark crilley is pretty bad

>>2142535
>implying you could do better

Check'em

>>2142536
>implying I can't

>>2142531
Of course it does, that's completely beside the point though. It also looks infinitely better than those shitty Madoka drawings that were posted earlier.

>>2142516
you don't.

>>2142523
like i said, it's probably just a bias of mine. i've already seen too many people who tried and failed. and on the other hand i've only seen a handful really succeed, and with those i don't even know wether they're asian or not. that's why this doubt exists. it's not like i don't know the points you are making.

>>2142532
you have a wild imagination. it looks like disney no matter how you look at it. it doesn't matter to me whether it's made by a japanese person or not. if you had a brain you'd realize that.

>>2142542
We all know you would have gone gaga over the Jap instead of the anime drawing done by the western artist >>2142523, you even JUST said you have a bias; a bias that you refuse to believe westerners can't draw good anime.

>>2142432
and another one from europe

>>2142543
and what part of that bias would have made me fawn over a disney type drawing made by a jap?
is there something wrong with your brain? are you ok? did something short circuit from repeating "weeb weeb" all the time?

>>2142547
>and with those i don't even know wether they're asian or not

literally this line, are you not reading what you type? why does it matter if they're ASIAN?

>>2142542
Well, you never answered my question. Does >>2142523 look like acceptable animu to you?

What about pic related?

>>2142455

I doubt it. I thought OP was saying this was his own drawing whose proportions he somehow managed to perfectly copy from the official artist. I agreed that there was something distinctly Asian about it, and then I noticed the Japanese. As for why I didn't notice immediately, I'm on my phone.

>>2142545
this one is from germany, 21 years old

>>2142549
>why does it matter if they're ASIAN?
it matters because my bias and my question is "can westerners draw anime?" so obviously it would matter. the opposite, wether a japanese can draw in whatever style. does not. at least to me.

>>2142551
it does. >>2142551 this one as well (well, barely).
and like i said, archvermin, saskias sketches, they do as well. so i know it's possible.
but it's a bias and it's hard to get rid of. i guess i'd have to see an actual westerner draw with my own eyes to get rid of this bias.

>>2142537

She didn't even spill her guts.

>>2142561
She's not a slut like that

>>2142559
I bet you have yellow fever and think all white women are inferior to asian women, too.

>>2142559
>(well, barely).

The one that just barely got your anime seal of approval was drawn by Yoh Yoshinari, legendary animator currently working for Studio Trigger who has worked on anime such as the original NGE, Gurren Lagann, FLCL, Kill La Kill, Little Witch Academia...

>>2142568
BODIED

OOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

>>2142566
how about no.
you're just obsessed categorizing people as weebs

>>2142568
i guessed as much.
but guess what. i don't like him that much. especially his new stuff.
exactly because it seems more western influenced and boring.
he's a westaboo iirc

>>2142559
Being asian has little to do being western. Arabs aren't western. USA-born asians are.

>>2142571
I think your problem is you don't understand the true meaning of 'stylization'. To get rid of your mental illness I suggest you broaden your horizons.

>>2142547
>>2142549
>>2142570
>>2142577

these pics are too moe
Please stop or I'll get diabetes

>>2142571
You seriously think Yoh Yoshinari's work looks boring of all things, compared to shit like >>2142452 ?

>>2142577
no, i just know what i like.

you have no idea how much i dislike trigger. LWA was a huge disappointment (havent seen the new one) and klk is a giant humongous stinking pile of garbage. everything else they made can barely be called a real show and is shit as well.
as far as anime goes, trigger is trying something new. and i don't like it too much.

>>2142574
it's obviously more about the ethnicity

>>2142580
no, not boring in terms of animation. boring in terms of style. it's bland, the expressions are bland.

>>2142584
>hating on the great yoshi
>implying trying something fresh is a bad thing

Repeat the steps in this gif >>2142537 and have a great rest of your afternoon....dead.

>>2142545
To be fair, that one looks more like gay tumblr fanart.

>>2142584
You seem to have a very limited taste, which is not something to be proud of. Are you actually an artist yourself or are you just someone from /a/ trying to stir shit on this board?

>>2142584
Are you autistic, or perhaps very young? I read through your posts, and there's something very off about your reasoning, your inability to tell styles apart, and your perception of various artists.

>>2142586
eh i don't hate him as an artist, even with his western influences. it's fine.
it's the studio that i dislike. but that's getting offtopic.

>>2142588
of course i draw.
i'd like to think my taste is varied. right now it just looks limited to you because of my rant against trigger. but i don't dislike trigger just because of their art, it's mostly for other reasons. so don't judge my taste on that.

>>2142594
>your inability to tell styles apart
kek, what's that supposed to be.

>>2142599
>kek, what's that supposed to be.
You didn't answer the question.

>>2142601
are you autistic?

the answer is simple OP, post your damn work so we can laugh at each other and move on.

>>2142602
No, but your refusal to answer the question more or less confirms that you are.

>>2142606
you didn't answer the question

>>2142599
>why is it westerners can't into anime
consider this, you clearly don't think some of the best japanese animators can into anime either. the question wasn't about taste it was can they "into anime" and the answer was yes, and agreed to it as well.
now you're changing it to
>do I like their work?
and considering you don't like what's considered to be one of the best Japanese animator's work the question is no longer east vs west, its about your shit taste.

>>2142584
>yoshinari
>bland and expressionless
can you please elaborate.

>>2142615
not him, but it's shit
>wanting to milk anime that badly

>>2142378
it's due to lack of skill, misleading beliefs based on generic simplification. Since they don't have any specific influences the just go for the entire genre. Also anime is actually the simplified style for animators to animate the mangaka's style. So it's an endless cycle, westerners copy a simple style that was simplified for animators to animate. They need to build up skill and personal taste.

>>2142615
It's shitposting thread bruh.
Yoshinari is shit.

>>2142619
1 elaborate why its shit
2 how is he "milking anime that badly"

I wonder. I always hear from /ic/ about not using anime style as a crutch and how doing it well requires you to know the fundamentals and stuff.

Are there any examples of good Japanese anime artists who do anime shit release their fundamentals practice? The stuff they do or did before they stylized?

>>2142619
>but it's shit

10/10 critique everyone pack up anime is finished.

>>2142626
The issue is what the fundamentals are, fundamentals rarely include "anatomy" like /ic/ loves to cry about. the fundamentals like color theory, forms, perspective etc... are all clearly applied to anime as well.
however if you're talking the realism stuff the guy who does a lot of disgaea art has some nice more realistic pieces as well, but i don't have it on hand or remember his name.

>>2142612
hmm, my taste aside, if we go back a bit, remember what i said about yoshinari. i said
>well, barely.
and that's correct, isn't it?
because it is a mix between east and west.
i never denied him as being anime, i just said he has western influences. and that makes him "not quite anime". i think that's fair to say.

again, the topic is "anime style". so i don't see what's wrong with my comment about yoshinari. he is western influenced after all. unless you want to deny that.

as for arguments, i conceded long ago. so i don't even know what this is about anymore. i just shared my taste to elaborate my position.

>>2142620
>anime is actually the simplified style for animators to animate the mangaka's style
You mean anime is a copy of Disney's animation that a lot of mangakas chose to use for their manga

>>2142632
What is "anime style"? Show me a definition, not opinions.

>>2142615
i didn't say expressionless. i said it was bland. i can't get behind any of the designs in LWA or KLK. they just lack something characteristic for me. they don't focus on design as much as other anime. it feels very western in that way. it's hard to explain.

>>2142636

Not him, but I doubt anyone would be able to find one beyond "Japanese animation style" which is varied.

We're at a point now where western and Japanese styles bleed over into each other all the time anyway, since the internet easily allows people to draw inspiration from whatever they want.

>>2142636
most of the images in this thread are anime style.
but this is a little different. >>2142551
it's a little more rubbery, not as "solid" in how the structure feels. it feels more disney/western

>>2142643

That's a pretty shit definition, anon. "It feels" is an opinion, and what the fuck are you on about with rubbery versus solid?

Saying "most these images fit the category" without providing a definition for the category is not a definition either.

>>2142626
Twitter.com/animesijyuku

>>2142646
you could at least try to use your eyes.
it is definitely more rubbery, more than other anime styles. think about old western cartoons, where they'll exagerrate in a similar way. i don't know what to say to you, use your eyes.

for the opposite of rubbery just look at people like 0033. or any artist really. it is somewhat rubbery as well. but they try to keep the shapes consistent. it is a different approach.

again, it's hard to explain. rubbery might not be the right word

6 out of 10.

>>2142632
there is no "anime" style. yoshinari makes anime thus its anime style. if you want pure japanese style art with no western influence then you end up with this.
not very anime now is it.
you're basing "anime" style off your opinion of how purely superior japanese something is even though you're just completely and utterly wrong.
I bet you think ghilbi isn't anime style either.

>>2142651

I know what you 'mean' with rubbery in that particular case but it's still this vague and not even close to defining an entire category of art.

Cedric Herole is a fully French animator who works in Japan. Here is some of his genga.

>>2142659

I want /a/ to leave.

>>2142654
>not very anime now is it.
well... because it's not animated. and it wouldn't make for a good animation style either.

it is not that hard to define "anime style".
>linedrawing
>can depict movement and expression well
>somewhat easy to animate
and to that, we also add all the
>japanese stylization habits
and we have "anime style"

yoshinari is slightly outside of that (for me) because he uses other influences, that distinguishes him from normal anime.

>>2142660
There's also Thomas Romain, another Frenchie working in Japan.

The anime style is based on collective cultural knowledge. Growing up surrounded by the style will make it easier for people to pick it up. Anime is very popular in France so that explains why there are many French people who can achieve a good anime style.

ANIME JA NAI

>>2142630
Takehito Harada. He knows his shit.

>>2142636
Generalized term for artwork that features characteristics of Japanese cartooning.

>>2142659
The French are pretty good at it, yeah. Not too surprising when you look at their history with anime.

>>2142663
>japanese stylization habits
Which don't exist. Astro Boy, Kiba, Skull Man, Lupin, Dragon Ball and Captain Harlock are all equally "anime style", whether some autist on the internet likes it or not.

>>2142663
>>can depict movement
what anime are you watching
most anime have shitty awkward movement and zero line of action

>>2142671
they obviously exist. that's why pixiv looks different from deviantart.
i won't say it's easy to define. as you said, there are tons of different substyles.

>>2142630
>fundamentals rarely include "anatomy" like /ic/ loves to cry about.
practice anatomy you retard. don't make me hit you.
if you want to draw humans, if you want to draw them well, practice anatomy.

>>2142670
>characteristics of Japanese cartooning.
Which are? While you're at it, what are characteristics of "non-japanese" cartooning?

>>2142675
hey now, I'm not saying anatomy is bad, its just not a fundamental. I'm just saying when people say that anime people master fundamentals too, its not about mastering realistic anatomy, its about mastering form, color theory, etc..

>>2142673
the movement wouldn't work at all if it had no line of action you retard.
stop saying stupid shit just because you want to be contrarian.

>>2142681
it is fundamental to drawing humans, so it might as well be fundamental. unless you only draw landscapes.
i get what you're saying though. it's far from the most important thing. but anatomy is still pretty important. if your human looks like shit, 9 times out of 10 the issue will be anatomy

>>2142675
I can't define it =/= it's not easy to define.
Either there is a definition, or you're talking out of your ass.

>>2142681
>its not about mastering realistic anatomy, its about mastering form

Seconding this.
The "learn anatomy" is often used when people really mean "learn form".

Then you end up with people who can't even draw a cube/cylinder human trying to draw all the muscles on that human.

>>2142639
Sushio was the one behind klk's character designs tho, not Yoshi

>>2142684
i don't need to define it to prove it. the japanese stylize differently, that much should be obvious.

and it's not something that is easy to generalize and define.
there are tons of styles and they all have their own history and influences that need to be explained. if we go down the line, we'll eventually get to tezuka or one of those old farts, and then get to disney.

imagine it like a gigantic tree where every branch is a style. it started somewhere before disney, and eventually got to japan. and now japan has it's own branch of styles.

nowadays things mix more thanks to the internet, but not THAT much.

>>2142684

The simplest definition is "Japanese animation" and despite it not being as cut and dry as some people like, you can usually spot differences (in broad strokes) between Japanese and western art. Mostly faces, obviously, namely with the eyes, nose and lips, though I'm far from an expert so I'm not going to try and go into more detail (I'm also not the guy you're arguing with over it).

Naturally, the pools have been blending more and more as more self taught artists are coming in and people can get inspiration from anywhere far more easily and in greater volume.

>>2142676
They are what makes >>2142523 different from >>2142525

Also understand that I said it's a generalization. You'll find examples that blur the lines, but that's the distinction people make when they say "anime."

>>2142695
really? well, sushio a shit as well.

>>2142696
except its not inherently japanese and its not about branches. its a giant hodgepodge of styles and you go to what is appealing to you. the "anime" style is typically appleaing to japanese cause they grew up with it, but people in the west that also grew up with it often have a very similar style.
there's a giant range, avatar the last airbender is very close to anime style while panty stocking is very western, however avatar is a cartoon while panty stocking is anime.

>>2142684
It's not that easy. We're not doing math here, so it's perfectly fine for to use history and experience to determine if something is anime style or not. You know it when you see it. You know rap from dubstep when you hear it, right? Same thing here.

It's okay if your definition of anime style is hugely different from another's too. Stereotypes and labels only need most people to accept them, not everyone.

>>2142701
>avatar, psg
it's close but in the end it's not. and that's the difference.

again, things are mixing more and more, and in the future it will be even harder to hold this discussion. but it's not yet gotten to the point where you can say that "japanese stylization" isn't a thing.

>>2142700
Sick b8

>>2142708
>it's close but in the end it's not. and that's the difference.

These completely worthless vague statements. You're really good at speaking and saying nothing at all.

>>2142696
>i don't need to define it to prove it
If you claim something, you need to prove it. Sorry.

>the japanese stylize differently, that much should be obvious
If it's obvious, why can't you define it?

>nowadays things mix more
Confirmed for never older japanese animation. Shit's been going for almost a century, and periods of it are as different as Tom & Jerry and Heavy Metal. Add to that that anime was born of Disney, first imitating early works like Mickey Mouse, all the way to later works, and you don't even have an argument.

>>2142408
A lot of anime does. Cartoons tend to be more expressive.

Also, I'd like to point out that Mark Crilley's chins were a fucking disgrace. That was the only real issue I had with him.
I can't believe he was the one that got me into drawing.

>>2142716
To clarify, I meant old cartoon animations. Some cartoons today are good too, but some have left a lot to be desired.

>>2142712
>>2142715
i'm done. if you honestly think that there is no difference, then feel free to do so.
just know that you don't understand shit.

>Add to that that anime was born of Disney, first imitating early works like Mickey Mouse
that was part of my arguement in my previous post you dumb shit. you think i talk about trees and branches for fun?
it is part of the reason why style isn't so clearly and easily defined.

but there is a japanese branch, where the japanese influenced each other, and that resulted in the various styles that exist today.

end of story

>>2142711
Why is Mako so sex?

>>2142729

I partially agree with you, but I'm just saying that you keep making completely useless statements that say nothing at all while sounding really assured of how right you are. You're not validating any of your opinions whatsoever, just saying how you feel and acting like it's self explanatory when it isn't.

>>2142729
while I'd say there's a style thats more common in japan you're doing a terrible job of arguing for it.
its not a japanese style, its just a style they commonly use that you also see in the west like in avatar. just like you see the cartoon style used commonly in japan. but you sound like a complete idiot.
explain to me clearly what the difference between avatar the airbender and one piece and the difference between psg and powerpuff girls using only their art styles.

>Why is it that westerners cant into aminu??+ xDd
Pretty sure this dude got it pretty much down

>>2142743
Forgot his DA
http://moxie2d.deviantart.com/gallery/

>>2142741
try to explain to me the difference between chinese, arabic and european folk music.

there should be an obvious difference. "chinese music" exists. "arabic music" exists.
their DIFFERENCES don't matter, and i do not have to list them. what matters is that they DIFFER. and we categorize distinguish them by their country of origin.
just like their is chinese music, arabic music, there is also japanese styles.

i said this from the very beginning, but THEY DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY. and that should be enough to distinguish them from other places like the west.

>>2142752

Once again, a big post that basically says nothing but "I feel like they're different".

>>2142752
the differences do matter when you're claiming 1 can't do something the other can't.
you're claiming there's something that distinguishes japanese anime art from western american art without saying what it is. If you asked me the difference between chinese and american music I could tell you that
1. the chinese are speaking chinese and that's obvious to anyone who can hear it
2. the instruments take on a classical chinese melody typically.
but the main thing is the LANGUAGE that separates the categories. You'll note that instrumentals and orchestra music is very rarely separated by country.

If you asked the difference between chinese and american food one could say the spices and the food that goes into making them. You don't typically add soy sauce to american cuisine.

now what's the difference between american art and japanese art? you've yet to say anything. if you claim there's a difference you have to state the difference or else you're full of shit because they don't do things differently.

>>2142761
>the instruments take on a classical chinese melody typically.
do you know how vague this sounds?
it is the same thing as i am saying.
chinese music is different because it SOUNDS different.
japanese cartoons LOOK different.

do you understand? they are obviously different. french and belgian comics are different from japanese comics. western animations are different from eastern ones.
it is such an obvious thing, i don't understand how you can possible argue that.

do i really need to list all the japanese styles that DO NOT exist in the west in order to make you shitters understand?
toriyama, and all the people that have been influenced by him. the shoujo styles, the shonen styles. the different types of eyes, noses, bodies, that are unique to japanese cartoons...?

it
is
obvious

>>2142768
you ignored the main part of the post while focusing on something utterly useless.
the main thing is the language there's a reason you dont see KOrchesrtra vs English Orchestra, because its all the same shit once you remove the lyrics.
the melody only was mentioned because in certain songs they'll bring in instruments that china had in the old days that are no longer in use. However an english band could use it and it'd sound exactly the same.
>different types of eyes nose and bodies that are unique to japanese
then how about avatar? it has all those "stylizations"
the stylistic choices aren't unique to japan and any good artist can copy the style, its not up for debate. The japanese do not use some special tool only they have access to, any artist who has any amount of ability will be able to analyze how they styled their drawings and do the same thing to their own works. Anime style is notoriously simple because it was created for easy animation and mass producing. This means your average artist will be able to copy it. Unlike music where you'd have to learn a new instrument to get the sound that an (old) japanese band would have you just have to learn the melody their rock band is playing which is the exact same shit as your guitar.

Why can't Jap into realism?

>>2142768
>>2142776
also to simplify it for you so you don't get caught up trying to prove some moot point false.

>explain why avatar isn't anime to you
it has all those stylizations you mentioned and your average person will probably think its anime. therefore its not "obvious".

>>2142743
anyone know how to get lines like that in photoshop?

>>2142782
...
really?

>>2142670
If every jap artist drew like this I would be the biggest weeb ever

>>2142782
The ol' trusty hard round brush.

>>2142525
>and here is a japanese artist
>Jin Kim
>japanese
You dun goofed.

>>2142790
isnt he Korean?

>>2142670
That's Kinu Nishimura, not Takehito Harada.

>>2142776
you are just completely missing the point.
look at >>2142671
>japanese stylization habits don't exist
this is what started the argument.

never once have i said anything about westeners not being able to draw anime. that point was conceded long ago.
and even if you use things like avatar, you can say that they are influenced by anime. which they are.
a japanese style definitely exists. regardless of wether outsiders can do it or not.

you have been arguing about something else the entire time.

>>2142796
if other people can do it then its not japanese style, its just a style.
If you're conceding that point I don't even know what you're arguing about. since clearly you think something is different because its japanese rather than because the art style, but then turn around and say something isn't japanese because it doesn't look japanese enough even though its from a japanese person who learned how to draw in japan.

>>2142798

> a Mexican dish isn't a Mexican dish if Mexicans don't personally make it.

>>2142798
>if other people can do it then its not japanese style, its just a style.
what is that even supposed to mean.
i can do shichuan styled cooking even without being from china you know?
what the fuck do you think "style" is?

>>2142805
I'm trying to understand what you're arguing. And that seems to be what you're saying.
You're saying even though westerns can perfectly copy a "Japanese style" its not anime because apparently its obviously different even though you can't say what those differences are.

>>2142806
>i can do shichuan styled cooking even without being from china you know?
Are you sure? Maybe you're of chinese descent and are destined to become a chinese illustration demigod.

>>2142805
A Mexican adding pickles to spaghetti doesn't make the spaghetti Mexican. Anime came out of western animation, and constantly adopted western technique, then it made some of its own and western animation adopted that. There is nothing that appears in one but not the other. If you argue something is "japanese style" because it first appeared in anime, you might as well argue anime doesn't exist because the west invented everything it's built on.

>>2142807
i never said that.
if they get it done correctly like >>2142523 then it counts.
a style is just a way of doing something. earlier in the thread we were arguing about wether westeners could learn japanese styles. never once did i say that it wouldn't count even if they did it.
you just went into the arguement with tons of preconceived notions.
i've said this a few times already, but it doesn't matter whether it's japanese or not. it's just about the style. the style is the thing that i care about.

i argued against >>2142671
apparently you were thinking about something entirely else. that's what happens when you don't read properly..
about avatar, you could say that it has slight similarities with the style of the naruto series. but it's just that. to me this enough to make me say it is has anime influence, but not more.

>>2142813
if you can't argue then just the shut up.
so many shitters like you just want to argue the easy point od "you're a weeb!" while not thinking about anything that is being said.

if you look from the very beginning, NEVER ONCE did i say that japanese can draw better than westeners or vice versa. i was only interested in the styles and how to draw them. just like i never said that anime is good, or that avatar is bad.
the rest is shit you people fabricated in your own minds. too fucking dumb for nuance.

>>2142827
>avatarfagging
You are a weeb.

>>2142827
>if you can't argue then just the shut up.
Jesus christ dude calm down, I'm not even the guy/guys you were talking with, nor were I arguing in favor of anything.
No bullying pls.

>>2142635
Actually that's pretty true because one of the best known mangakas, Osama tezuka, had major influences from Disney and Betty boop (his influences were based on western art) which years down the line he became the god-father of the manga/anime movement. (Sorry if the history seems pretty butchered but this is how much I can sum up).

>>2142716
I remember in a video he stated that he wanted his female characters (miki) to have larger chins just to make them appear stronger. I wasn't sure if he was just making excuses so he doesn't have to put in the extra work to fix it. The faces does look really awkward.

>>2142835
i thought i might as well dump them all

>>2142839
>Best
more like the most influential and revolutionary

>>2142842
>best known
That's what being influential means.

>>2142849
i misread

>>2142839
The huge chins on women are a thing with some older mangakas, though.

>>2142839
>I remember in a video he stated that he wanted his female characters (miki) to have larger chins just to make them appear stronger.

>>2142777
Japan was a very reclusive and isolated country that rarely open up to any foreigners ( the only exception would be other Asian countries nearby (possibly)). Other than the European countries, they happen to be very close-by and that they have instant connection with each other to share and very high classical artistic standards, and studied what they have learned from the passing masters.

>>2142852
I think it's their attempt to make faces appear cuter and younger. Mostly stylistic taste.

>>2142853
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TxkQ7h06IKc
Around 4:11 he does make the statement

Only good Japanese manga style is Araki because he's more western than Japanese.

>>2142883
So crilley boy is into drawing traps? If he wanted her to be a strong character in the end just give her long hair and make her cut it. The book is aimed at young girls who don't know anime tropes as well as neckbeards on /ic/.

>>2142913
You're confusing /ic/ with /a/

>>2142915
Oh...right.

>>2142378
Easy.

Because Westerners have self respect

Not to sound like everyone else here, but I kind of noticed the same thing. It also doesn't have to just be anime, I get this sense that a drawing has more movement and action from certain artists than others.
http://namie-kun.deviantart.com/

>>2142400
Didn't you see the picture in OP's post?
THAT's why he's asking! ACtually, I have wondered about this too. I remember seeing some manga-looking comics getting printed back in the day, but it was some terrible stuff... you could see the guy just kinda aped the style, yet somehow managed to make it look terrible.
I can't quite explain the feeling. But it's like when some guy sings rock yet doesn't have the rage inside them. That sort of thing.

On the other hand, we have some fantastic artists that have assimilated the manga aesthetic but made it their own, so it's not a general problem (if you don't know the label Ankama, look it up).

No, what I really wonder is who the fuck let something like OP's pic get published!

As I was saying, it isn't only anime either.
http://knknknk.deviantart.com/

they usually have complete commitment to those manga expressions and simplifications so there's consistency. I can only think of disney when it comes to that level of consistency. they're like perfect cartoon dolls
also I usually get the feeling that anime characters are surrogate humans rather than just silly cartoon characters used to express some whimsical silly side of a person
you're supposed to identify with, be attracted to, sympathize with, want to be like and want to dress like anime characters
with a character like ren you're mostly supposed to feel amused by his outlandish looks and behaviors

>>2142378
Whenever I see that pic

H-how do i escape from the weebs /ic/. They're everywhere.

This pic was done by a western artist and it looks pretty anime to me.

>>2143153
This reeks westerner imo, I could spot it a mile off.

>>2143050
My mom once linked me to a website about some girl with the same medical condition I have that drew anime. She said her art was great and I was waiting to see the page.
It looked EXACTLY like that shit.

I no longer ask for her opinion on my art when I visit anymore.

>>2143159
I think he's just shitposting

>>2142950
>namie-kun
>giving yourself a suffix
How arrogant and ignorant can a weeb get

>>2143161
More like

Diaper posting

Am I right?

>>2143172
Exactly the kind of response I was hoping for.

>>2142378
Because a lot of westerners (me for example) started off thinking it was "easy" so we just traced a bunch of shit and it ended up looking awful.

Then I found /ic/, learned2fundamentals, and just cut down on various things to end up with mangos.

You just shift the bridge of the nose downwards, remove brow ridge, puff cheeks slightly, and modify certain areas. Skull construction is still very important, and so on.

tl;dr everyone is bad at animus it's just that most westerners who know what the fuck they're doing don't draw animus and japs who know what the fuck they're doing typically don't drawn western tumblr style.

Vilppu can do anime.

Atheists - 0
Christians - 2

>>2143180
That actually looks more of a classical american stylization.

>>2143181
I've seen woodcut illustrations that almost looked exactly like 90's anime I swear on my mom's dick.

>>2143181
And it looks better than modern moe anime.

>>2143183
it looks like a nerdy man. just your type probably

>>2143180
>all that chromatic aberration

even vilppu hopping on the kronprinz train

>>2143180
vilppu confirmed weeb.

>>2142913
Nah it's more like he has no experience in what the heck he's drawing,

>>2142378
because culture affects their ability to draw, like their handwriting.
>>2143045
True. The power of stylization can affect personality that presents in forms.

>>2143171
Can you paint like that, tho.

>>2142564
>what is seppuku?

>>2142580
THAT NIGGA IS SERIOUSLY HANDICAPPED TO THINK THAT

>>2142378

can someone tell me what book is OPs image from

>>2142378
Here's the problem, when has anime ever looked like that?

>>2142571
Y-you shut your whore mouth!

>>2142584
>you have no idea how much i dislike trigger. LWA was a huge disappointment

This is actually pretty funny. I stopped watching anime about a decade ago, but LWA was actually one of the few anime that I could stomach. It had great animation and was far more expressive than the majority of shit Japan has churned out over the past decade. It actually felt a bit like 90s anime. The story wasn't anything special, but it wasn't so bad that it was a detriment either.

That being said, I'm surprised that the same company that made LWA, made something as horrifyingly generic and bad as KLK. Guess it's the residual influences of Gainax.

>>2143725
i don't hate LWA. it was just very bland.

>>2143459
One of christopher hart's how to draw books.

>pic related.
Apparently we have one joint in our pinky finger

>>2143745
All of those fingers only have one joint.

>>2143752
Your point?

>>2143745
so im a medical freak?
AWESOME!

I was talking about this in a thread last night. I know all the reasons because I'm writing a book about this subject. AMA because I'm late asf to this thread.

>>2142558
artwork from the manga Good.Night.Mare by ff69 ( spanish guy)

>>2143779
^kek , I forgot the pic.

>>2143756
>>2143745
Not him, but you might notice most anime isn't exactly anatomically correct.

You might as well point out anime eyes are too big for the skull.

>>2143777
> I know all the reasons
kek. then tell us.

>>2143777
>I'm writing a book about this subject
Please tell us the title you have in mind, and we'll give you a better one.

>>2143777
post your work

>>2143785
The tools westerners use compared to the Japanese.
The Culture we're immersed in.

The way we learn traditional art, most Mangaka haven't studied traditional art but instead they study the works of others. While most western artist learn fundamentals first then stylization.

The way we write our alphabet, the first thing we learn how to "Draw."
There's more if you want to know just ask ;^)

>>2143792
give us a lengthy extract from your book, anon

>>2143789
The joke title was "Mangbaka Gaijin: The Japanese cartoonist outside of Japan." but I'll just have a publisher name it.


>>2143790
I was traditional taught went to College and shit. My degree was in Art History though. I have fundamentals and never worked in the field. Sketchbook from the last time I was big into drawing.

>>2143792
cut back on the haughty, senpai. it's nobody ever thought of these before.
be more specific.

for example, with the "traditional art", i'm pretty sure they train using figure drawing as well. they generally call it "dessin" or something.
i've also thought the same about kanji as well. maybe their complicated kanji strokes result in better strokes while drawing as well.
as for tools, what are you specifically talking about?
same question with culture.

>>2143806
fukken dropped

>>2143806
I'm skeptical about how much of an expert you can be on the subject when they can't even draw it well yourself.

>>2143792
>The way we learn traditional art, most Mangaka haven't studied traditional art but instead they study the works of others. While most western artist learn fundamentals first then stylization.

Where do you faggots get this bullshit from? Hvae you done any research? Most of the manga artists I google have a degree from an art college (for example, the artists for Berserk, Vagabond and Naruto). The only ones who don't seem to have any proper training, are the ones who've managed to get into the industry before the age of 18.
Also, the myth that most artists somehow start out by learning the basics and then switch to stylization, is insane. Most people start drawing for fun, because they like comics or manga, and will usually draw for years before they consider learning the basics, or are forced to learn the basics when getting into college.

>>2143807
Japanese, [katakana kanji hiragana] is very specific it's not much like English were you can write characters in many different ways and still get your point across. The strokes of their language is much more precise and complex.

Japanese Inking pens are different from the ones you can get in the west although now it's not that hard to buy some.

An American cartoonist is inspired by popular Cartoons in their culture from Disney to John K. Same with the Japanese mangaka they're inspired by what's their culture.

>>2143810
>>2143811
I never said I could draw anime...

>>2143820
Top quality meme. For every studied Mangaka you can name I can name 50 who got popular their start at Comeket, or as an assistant, or has never been to college.

>>2143825
>>Japanese Inking pens are different from the ones you can get in the west although now it's not that hard to buy some
not everybody starts out practicing with inkin pens, out of all things. in fact, only mangaka do. even animators probably aren't using nib pens to line their work.

>>2143820
>Also, the myth that most artists somehow start out by learning the basics and then switch to stylization, is insane.
It's not a myth most American artists do develop/perfect their style that way, while the most Japanese do the opposite.

>>2143827
Ok, I'm waiting for a list of 150 untrained popular manga artists.

>>2143832
No but the finalized look is done with ink.
The breaks in lines
Line thickness
Pressure changes in lines
all characteristics that are hard to naturally achieve with a western toolset

>>2143835
What do you base this on?

>>2143827
>basing skill on popularity
>trusting the shit taste of the general public

>>2143839
i pretty much agree. but that means it isn't the tools, it's the focus on lines.

i see it like this: anime is like western cartooning except evolved. it's just like mickey mouse, but they gradually added more details, more complexity and fine tweaked everything.
on the opposite side, we have western comics, that also use lines. the difference is that western comics are more grounded in reality.

anime = fine tuned mickey mouse drawings (generally)
western comics = lined figure drawings (generally)
that being said, this isn't only an anime and the west thing. it is a general distinction between unrealistic and realistic styles.

>>2143825
>The strokes of their language is much more precise and complex.
You know shit about japanese, japanese do have stroke order but most people like most western people don't give a shit about it after school and
have shit handwriting, hhave you ever try reading handwritten manga pages on pixiv? most are shit many are almost unreadable.

>>2143851
not that guy but i don't think wether you can read it or not is relevant here. kanji are complicated and have long and short strokes going in all various directions. when they are young they practice writing kanji properly over and over.
that probably has an effect in a persons markmaking abilities. it's just an hypothesis though.

God Tier: Kojima, Amano, Masakazu Katsura
Shit tier: Nomura, Hiroya Oku
Cant decide if pure genius or pure shit: Toriyama

>>2143855
as someone who had to do those exercises you're both basically full of shit, especially on the hiragana, katakana, and basic kanjis. your typical japanese person can't write for any more shit then your typical american, your average person can't do calligraphy.

>>2143842
Goldberg
Nast
Disney
Eisner
Jack Kirby
Jim Starlin
Steranko
John Romita
Jim Lee
John Romita
Brian Bolland

>>2143838
All popular western cartoonists that have a background in traditional art, or have been to college.
>>2143838
What Americans think as popular is very different then what the the Japanese think I can give you 150 names but a google search wouldn't bring anything up because their work isn't popular here. Only a small percent of manga is translated to English.
Hirano started as an assistant
Hiromu Arakawa learned as an assistant
Hirohiko Araki Started in highschool

>>2143851
Making mistakes when writing roman letters is more forgiving than making mistakes with complex kanji. Naturally, writing kanji would require more confidence to not fuck up the small strokes or forget radicals.

>>2143862
i'm pretty sure that they start practicing basic kanji in gridded boxes in middle school, if not in elementary school. you have no idea what you're talking about.

>your typical japanese person can't write for any more shit then your typical american,
what does this even mean? is america a third world country? of course people can write. most japanese can write as well. unless you're telling me there is an illiteracy problem going on in japan?

>your average person can't do calligraphy.
they don't have to, but they can WRITE. and kanji are infinitely more complicated than the ABC. that's the point.

>>2143870
>>2143862
It's about the strokes you make too. There are more straight lines in the English alphabet then there are in Katakana kanji etc..

>>2143874
I had a lot of jap professors because they need to spend 2 years teaching abroad or something, none of them can write for shit. There's something about Japan that makes people build this mystery around them.

Kanji are extremely limited in stroke types and have nothing to do with art. The stroke order is a general thing, all the radicals follow the same rule, much like latin letters. We all had to write in cursive in school, and I actually had calligraphy in high school. Neither have anything to do with drawing.

>>2143877
>There are more straight lines in the English alphabet then there are in Katakana kanji etc..
But that's wrong, you idiot.

>>2143881
It's the first thing you learn to put down on a piece of paper. It's in your mind you can't forget it. It's muscle memory.

This is like saying your accent has nothing to do with your singing voice.

>>2143862
Stroke order is important because it's the last thing that can let the characters be identifiable even if the handwriting is shit. The bad handwriting is mostly unidentifiable to you because you don't pay attention to the strokes. Nobody here is talking about calligraphy, why are you bringing that up? If you write the characters in a way following stroke rules then that narrows down each of them immensely when reading or writing. The writing systems learned ingrains a certain way the strokes should be done and the order which serve to help identify the character. I'm assuming you did do the exercises but gave up learning the language because you figured it was too hard or you are still a very huge beginner. Congratulations, you are on "Mount Stupid" and a classic case of Dunning Kruger.

>>2143881
>none of them can write for shit
you are just completely retarded. how do you think kids in school do their tests? you think they write entirely in kana? what about document papers? are you trying to be contrarian here or are you mentally challenged?
even simple everyday kanji are fairly complicated compared to the abc.

>and have nothing to do with art
it has, because it's like a drawing excercise. constantly lifting the pen and making long and short strokes in various directions. strokes which have to work together to make a readable symbol.
it is very different from writing using the alphabet and it wouldn't be weird to assume that this could rise their aptitude for drawing.

>>2143881
Your shitty chicken scratch habit started when you were learning the ABC, anon; tracing the letter templates like some kid with parkinsons. No one is born with innate chicken scratch. It has everything to do with drawing.

>>2143885
O and S are the only letters in the English alphabet that don't contain a straight line.
Hiragana doesn't have a single straight line. Katakana and Kanji have symbols that don't contain straight lines.
Checkmate atheist

>>2143894
>Hiragana doesn't have a single straight line.
full retard

>>2143894
>what are RBGCPDQJU
>Hiragana doesn't have a single straight line
either was the amount of straight/curved lines doesn't matter. what matters is the amount of strokes, their direction and the fact that they are part of a symbol.

>>2143153

I'd say the girl is anime derivative (reminds me of Asami from TLoK) but the male is definitely western.

>>2143874
I meant their hand writing is shit.
>infinently more complicated
no its not don't use that word unless you know what it entails. yes kanji are more complicated, but its doesn't mean writing them is so amazingly difficult. especially when your average person still fucks it up.
>>2143877
>more straight lines in english than...
katakana is basically all straight lines, and most kanji are straight lines.
hiragana is an exception there.
>>2143889
>hurr ad hominems!
come back when you have a real argument.
I said calligraphy because this is a drawing board, that's the closest language gets to drawing. If you're claiming japanese are superior because of their writing system i'm assuming its because you think they're doing it beautifully or someshit, which would be approaching calligraphy standards. which most your japanese people can't do.

>>2143896
k
>>2143898
You right I forgot capital U Cc and J j but all the other ones all have straight lines.
>what matters is the amount of strokes, their direction and the fact that they are part of a symbol.
>>2143885 tell that to him

>>2143915
ku, he, mo,ne,te,se,ki, ta, ha, na all have straight lines, and ni is typically fairly straight.

>>2143894
>>2143877
>+50000 kanji
>27 roman letters
There is a plausible chance that there are more straight lines in kanji than in english

>>2143915

>>2143917
You can argue that those are slightly curved, if I'm not mistaken.

>>2143922
It's about the percentage

>>2143927
they can be, or they can be drawn straight, not too big of an issue either way. ku is definently straight lines though

>>2142526
>>2142526
im sure this is what anon was talking about, look up LeSean Thomas on ze google

>>2143914
>no its not don't use that word unless you know what it entails. yes kanji are more complicated, but its doesn't mean writing them is so amazingly difficult. especially when your average person still fucks it up.
again.
did i say they were difficult? i'm pretty sure i said more "complicated". you just admitted it as well. and they are more difficult. that is a fact.
stop being retarded jesus christ.

>>2143938
>and they are more difficult. that is a fact.
kek, i mean more complicated.

>>2143938
>complicated: difficult to analyze, understand, explain, etc.:
yes its more complicated but not "infinently" so, so its really not that big of a deal.

>>2143945
now that's just semantics.
it is quite a bit more complicated than the alphabet. anyone with eyes can tell. that's all i'm saying.
instead of many simple signs (alphabet), they have more complicated signs, each with specific meanings attached to them.

why do you people always get so insecure whenever these east and west comparisons are made? it happened several times in this thread already.

>>2143950
the main complication isn't the drawing themselves though, its the sheer number and memorization involved with them.
sure the kanji for squid sex is more complicated than writing it in english, but its not -that- complicated to write it, the issue is with memorizing it.
I can agree they are somewhat harder to draw, but its not so hard to draw that it affects their artistic ability is all I'm saying.

>>2143914
>If you're claiming japanese are superior...
I think you're mixing different people up because that was my first post in the thread and nowhere do I mention any superiority whatsoever. I also don't assume any inherent positive or negative qualities in the handwriting.

I think I'll back up for a bit since I might be misunderstanding something. The issue I have is if you think that stroke order is not important to reading and writing a language which borrows so heavily from Chinese. Even the most sloppy of handwriting will follow the same rules in general. If you also agree, then I am at fault and will commit sudoku for this disgrace.

>hurr durr latin script is straight japanese learn curves from an early age wah wah
Is this American education at work, or am I missing something? Who the fuck writes in type after first grade?

In my country, they literally don't accept shit written in type.

>>2143960
>the main complication isn't the drawing themselves though
no it is. it is the symbol itself that is more complicated. stop being retarded.

>but its not -that- complicated to write it, the issue is with memorizing it.
that's completely beside the point. the context here is drawing. and with kanji being MORE complicated than the alphabet, it should have some effect on their motor skills.

>but its not so hard to draw that it affects their artistic ability is all I'm saying.
i think if you do this starting from very young, it should affect you quite a bit.
it's not directly related as in writing kanji will make you draw, but i can definitely imagine how it makes it easier for them to control their strokes. ..that's the theory anyway.

>>2143981
personally never saw a point in cursive. anything that matters will be in print, having cursive just makes it harder to read the people with terrible hand writing.
>>2143983
>the symbol is more complicated so that's clearly all that makes it harder!
no, the issue is there's 10k characters which often have overlapping looks. even a 2 y/o can draw kanji without knowing what it means.
>its more complicated so it has effect on motor skill
not really since the overall processes involved in drawing them aren't any more difficult than english letters. yes there's more strokes and such, but a straight straight line in the kanji day is no harder than a straight line in the letter A, there's just more lines in the kanji than in A.
>that's the theory anyways
the issue is you're basing the "theory" out of something you pulled out of your ass without any base in reality.
the strokes in kanji aren't any more difficult than the strokes in english, the difference is the amount and the memorization of the amount of kanji.
you're mistaking complication of a letter to complication of the writing, and they're not the same.

also I see no reason to start with the name calling. it just makes you look childish.

>>2143981
this is still far simpler than kanji.
also you can literally just scribble in zigzag 50% of the time and it'll be readable.

this is not something you can do with kanji. it won't be readable anymore if you get too messy. one is forced to make those strokes and all the little dots and shit.
you can barely do it with kana, but that's also because they are simpler.

>>2143893
this

>>2143988
Nigger, I studied Japanese, there are only a handful of strokes and they are tiny. There being more strokes in a kanji than in a letter is utterly irrelevant, the strokes are simple short lines that so nothing for drawing. Provide a study correlating kanji with artistic skill or fuck off.

>>2143991
>>2143893
Have you been to school? You don't start with letters, they teach you fluid loops and straight lines and shit first. Like, pretty much what Loomis has you doing at first.

>>2143987
>even a 2 y/o can draw kanji without knowing what it means.
are you STILL not getting it?
this is completely beside the point you retard. you are talking as if we are debating writing skill or something. like "which side is better". that's not the point.
again, stop being so insecure when these comparisons happen.

>not really since the overall processes involved in drawing them aren't any more difficult than english letters
but it is. stop being delusional.

>but a straight straight line in the kanji day is no harder than a straight line in the letter A, there's just more lines in the kanji than in A.
but in the west you don't have to make a straight line, then draw a box in the middle, add dots in every conceivable direction, add more lines, curves, boxes and dots just to complete one sign.

the japs learn these signs and learn know them well enough that they can draw most of them in maybe arounf 5 seconds. do you understand how much of a difference this is compared to the alphabet?
it IS a huge difference. look at pic related. all these signs, they "draw" day in day out. and they do it starting from their childhood. all this should make a difference.

even if you say that the difference is small, imagine writing a school essay with this. this is their fucking language. doing this day in day out, it would be weird if it didn't affect their motor skills.

>>2144006
>there are only a handful of strokes and they are tiny.
just kill yourself. again, if that's the case then the alphabet is even more simple. and that's the point.
> There being more strokes in a kanji than in a letter is utterly irrelevant
it is not irrelevant because you get used to making lots and lots of marks in a small space.
>Provide a study correlating kanji with artistic skill or fuck off.
look for it yourself. this is just a hypothesis.

>>2144019
you should really just stop being such a weeb. you're not even close to intelligent anymore.

>>2144023
>you should really just stop being such a weeb
and that's all you can say. it's pathetic.

drawing complicated symbols makes it easier for japanese to draw symbol based stylistic drawings. it's that easy. it makes sense too.
and all you can say is
>i-it's not THAT complicated!
>the alphabet is good too!
as if it matters even a little bit.

look at pic related. all i'm saying is that asians would have a easier time drawing something like this, because of the lines and symbols.

>>2144019
>you get used to making lots and lots of marks in a small space.
And we all know making lots and lots of marks in a small space is a thing you need to do in art, and not long, sweeping strokes, right?

>look for it yourself
I don't have to, burden of proof lies with you. Japs had kana and kanji for what, hundreds of years? A thousand? Where is this superior art? How did Europe with it's shitty scripts have amazing art, yet no one in Japan realized you can do something better than ripping off Chinese formulas?

>this is just a hypothesis.
Yes, a dumb, uneducated one, with nothing to support it. Provide some evidence to support your retarded claims or fuck off.

>>2144032
it's not about art skill in general, it's about anime you goddamn retard. it's about symbols, lines and all that jazz.

>blah blah yurop
insecure fucking shitter.

>>2144035
You're officially the dumbest person on /ic/, even accounting for trolling.

Let this thread die.

>>2144035
BUT MAKING LOTS OF SMALL MARKS IN SMALL SPACE IS NOT WHAT YOU WANT TO DO IN ANIMATION YOU RETARD

YOUR ARGUMENTS DON'T EVEN MAKE SENSE

>>2144037
well i'm sitting here talking about kanji in relation to mark making, and people have nothing else to say except defensively blabber about as if i attacked europe with a nuklear strike.
you're just so easily offended.

you are too dumb to follow an arguement, and now that your brainpower has officially forsaken you, you start relying on insults.
pathetic fucking shiiter.

>>2144041
did i say that kanji teaches you animation?
if you knew anything about drawing you'd know that beginners have a hard time working (focusing) on detail. kanji might give you experience in that beforehand. it won't seem as unnatural to make many small marks in order to draw something anymore

>>2144045
>japan is best
>it's not though
>omg so insecure why mad yurop nuklear strike nippon banzai
Don't you have some ramen to eat or something?

>>2144045
>beginners have a hard time working (focusing) on detail
confirmed for not drawing

everyone disperse

>>2144045
it has nothing to do with being defensive, you're just factually wrong. I'm using the english alphabet because that's one everyone knows and is used to. you're wrong because your "hypothesis" (which isn't even a real hypothesis) is just completely wrong and is founded on literally no evidence.
>what does kanji have to do with animation
because animation is essentially the most basic form of drawing that utilizes all the things you want in a compact form.
>beginners have a hard time working on detail
they shouldn't be working on details if they're a beginner. and if they're not a beginner its not an issue.

you're just completely wrong, stop sucking off japan and look at reality. kanji has absolutely no impact on overall drawing skill.

>>2144048
>japan is best
see, i didn't say that. and you are simply too fucking dumb to see that.
it is fucking ironic. and sad. because this is why i consider you shitters defensive.

>>2144050
beginners can easily draw a face with tons of strokes! of course! it's natural!

>>2144051
>because animation is essentially the most basic form of drawing that utilizes all the things you want in a compact form.
..again. what does kanji have to do with animation? are you stupid or something?
i said kanji helps set you up for drawing. especially if you start young. and it's not like kanji is the determining factor, i just said it might be a factor.

you know the plactice where you draw circles, curves and lines in all directions over and over?
you know why this is a practice? because your body will fucking remember it. and that is what this theory is based on.

>>2144058
>what does kanji have to do with animation.
are you literally this retarded? because animation is drawing, if you can't draw things that are applied to animation you can't draw period. Breaking lines into tiny strokes isn't good for any style of art period, no ifs, ands, or buts.
>drawing circles and lines = drawing kanji
only if you were drawing calligraphy on a large piece of paper, which you aren't. you do large circles and lines not tiny little ones.

clearly you are't an artist, and even clearer you aren't japanese so you literally have no idea what you're talking about whatsoever. Why you think you can make any claims about either is beyond me.

>>2144062
i disagree with everything you said.

how can yo upossibly say that small strokes are unneeded? hatching, corrections, details. you have to make small marks EVERYWHERE in anime. the details in the eyes is the best example.

and again, i didn't say that kanji directly helps you draw. it's not like everyone who can write in japan can draw. i'm saying that it helps you get familiar with making small marks. it also helps you position your marks.

>you do large circles and lines not tiny little ones.
yes, which is why kanji isn't as effective as that. but even in that scale, it should have an effect. the movements of your hand are going to stick.

>>2144072
>I disagree with
you can't, because you're wrong. this isn't an opinion its fact.
>you make small marks everywhere in anime
why do you think anime is some magical art style that's different than everyone else? its has the same techniques everything else has. the main (and important) parts of anime are the larger strokes like anything else. the details are nice but they're not hard to do once you have the larger lines down. so you don't need the supposed help you get from kanji to do them even if it did somehow help you.
>I didn't say kanji helps you draw, it just helps you with mark placement
that's not that big of a deal, you're looking at these small details thinking they're some hugely difficult thing that needs help. mark placement really isn't that difficult once you stop being a complete noob, and anyone who's a complete noob it doesn't matter how good their placement is because they can't draw for shit.
>but even in that scale it should have an effect
no more than writing in english does.

you're wrong, there's no arguing with it. I might not be the best person to argue against you. but you're just simply factually wrong and you should just stop. you are not an artist, and you are not japanese, and I doubt you can write kanji in the first place. You have no place to talk about any of the above topics because you have absolutely no knowledge about any of them.

>>2144076
>fact
kek.

>why do you think anime is some magical art style that's different than everyone else?
it looks different, so it is different. it's probably just the approach that is different. figuring out what this difference is is the point of my posts.

>that's not that big of a deal, you're looking at these small details thinking they're some hugely difficult thing that needs help. mark placement really isn't that difficult once you stop being a complete noob, and anyone who's a complete noob it doesn't matter how good their placement is because they can't draw for shit.
yes. but the fact that they do it so much also means it is easier for them to draw details.
have you ever considered why western cartooning has fairly simple and few strokes while anime is becoming more complicated and convulted? (like additional strokes in eyes, hair etc) i believe this is because the asians are more used to mark making, and it's less of an hassle.
and yes, it doesn't mean that kanji is the only way to learn anime.

>no more than writing in english does.
again, look at my previous posts. look at >>2144019
imagine an one page essay written in this language. and compare it to an one page english essay. the difference in stroke complexity should be obvious.

> you are not an artist, and you are not japanese
ok, time i addressed this. i'm chinese, i can draw, and i've spent my early childhood in china. i've drilled kanji before. (it was chinese though) i've forgotten most of it long ago, but still. i think i should be able to speak on this.
about the "you can't draw" line, it really should be my line.

http://fnochrishart.tumblr.com/
many keks

>>2144094
>kek
>>>/reddit/
we've explained why you're full of shit and you're still pulling stuff out your ass without any evidence or logic.
>it looks different so its different
no its not. that's not how art works.
>anime is more complicated than cartoons
its stylization not because difficulty.
also disney has more details than your average anime
>look at my previous post :^)
still wrong because complexity doesn't matter in what you're talking about and we've explained this multiple times.
>I'm chinese but forgot it all so I still get to speak :^)
no. especially when you're not an artist and since you forgot most of it we can assume you weren't there for that long thus didn't learn that many characters.

but I'm done because I'm clearly arguing with either a sub 80 iq troll or a sub 60 iq idiot and I have better things to do than try to help you.

I personally think that my finger coordination has gotten marginally better from doing 20k written kanji reps as a moon learner, at least when it comes to making small pecks and lines. It doesn't translate too well into general drawing, though. Drawing involves your arm and wrist in another way.

Anime looks as it does mostly because of general Japanese culture, I'm sure.

>>2144101
>no its not. that's not how art works.
that is exactly how it works. if you want to draw like glen keane, it would be the best if he explained his process to you. because everyone focuses on slightly different things.
not everything is the same.
different processes will lead to very different results. if you can even draw you should know this.

>also disney has more details than your average anime
if you say it like that, maybe. but notice in certain places where anime just gives more attention to detail. like the eyes, the hair, clothes. whereas in the average western cartoon it is more uniform, and the eyes have the same simplicity as the body parts.

>still wrong because complexity doesn't matter in what you're talking about and we've explained this multiple times.
and that makes you right? i don't think you understand how this works. as far as i'm concerned you still don't understand it at all.

>no. especially when you're not an artist and since you forgot most of it we can assume you weren't there for that long thus didn't learn that many characters.
no, i forgot because it is now more than a decade ago and i never once tried to refresh my knowledge. but i did study a few years in school in china.
in any case, according to the hypothesis, it's not important how many kanji you learn or that you know what they mean. it's about the motor skills that you take out of it.

>b-but you're not an artist
>insults
k e k pathetic

>>2144109
you didn't learn from young so you shouldn't expect anything from it.

>>2144114
>you didn't learn from young so you shouldn't expect anything from it.
Why?

>>2144115
like i said, it's not like kanji is directly related to drawing.
it's just that it will help you get used to mark making. and that would be especially effective if you do it from when you're still young.

that being said, it's not like this is the only way to do this. you can also just draw a lot and arrive at the same level of motor skills.

>>2144114
not him but
>that is exactly how it works
wrong.
>notice in certain places where anime pays more attention to detail
wrong.
>b-but you're not an artist = insult
are you an artist? if not then he's right and you're retarded.

>>2144141
>b-but you're not an artist = insult
you read that wrong, thats not how i meant it. and i am an artist, obviously.
i drew >>2144031, which doesn't say much. but think what you want.

>wrong
how about no

>>2144150
>drawing a circle=artist
but it doesn't so he's right and you're retarded.

>>2144165
>>drawing a circle=artist
who said that drawing a circle makes anyone an artist?

>>2144122
You haven't really answered my question, you just rephrased your claim.

This just sounds like some wishful "katana folded 1000 times" equivalent of script discussion. My kanji writing started out shitty Westerner-tier but I have now risen to the level where I can make textbook level kanji with nice spacing and confident lines and I still feel that it doesn't help me much when drawing. My anecdote should mean something, but you're still handwaving it away.

Writing a lot will give a small boost to related activities such as drawing, but Chinese symbols, as beautiful as they are, are just a bunch of bends and straight lines, just like the Western alphabet. Both will better your coordination if you write a lot.

If Chinese characters give an edge somewhere, it's probably as memory exercise.

>>2144183
>This just sounds like some wishful "katana folded 1000 times" equivalent of script discussion. My kanji writing started out shitty Westerner-tier but I have now risen to the level where I can make textbook level kanji with nice spacing and confident lines and I still feel that it doesn't help me much when drawing. My anecdote should mean something, but you're still handwaving it away.

yes, because the things you learn at a young age, you internalize more deeply.
and even if you can write kanji now, are you writing as much as an average japanese throughout his school years? in any case i imagine the impact is going to be smaller for you, since you learned it later, on top of all the other knowledge you already have.

and again, like i said, kanji doesn't directly relate to drawing. it's not like you can study kanji in order to learn how to draw. that would be a very roundabout way of doing things.
it's more like kanji will benefit you and influence your stroke habits down the line.
how long and how intensely have you been drawing now? -that will still be the most important factor.

>>2142406
no

>>2144215
Well, I agree that writing a lot will give a certain boost to your drawing at least.

Still raises interesting questions, since today's youth use utilize the pen very little in favor of texting. Probably goes for suburban East Asians too.

>>2144226
yeah. that's kind of why i brought up school and documents. they should still need to write in those areas.
writing should be a pretty natural thing. even with texting and all you'll still learn it in school. it won't go away.

>>2142406
He's been drawing for 6 years and his current style doesn't look any impressive than before. It just looks awkward and stiff.

>>2142406
MarK "I use too many weird ass guidelines that's why my shit always comes out stiff as hell" Crilley

What do u guys think about Odunze

Or Adam?

>>2144589
Looks like someone trying to combine the styles of the big 3 (One Piece, Naruto, Bleach) to capitalize on their success. Reminds me of Nick Simmons but probably with less direct plagiarism.

>>2144676
It's hard to ignore who his influences are since it's easier to see in his art style. Mostly tite kubo.

>>2144557
lol, but the question is, why do such a tedious task when nothing redeemable will come of it?

>>2142663
Your definition is so vague. nigga you dumb