/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

most? lol
u're such a newbe

Post your art.

>>2097822
>lol
why is this allowed now? kill yourself

>>2097862
before or after grinding?

>>2097818
The greeks must've been ripped as fuck then, and had really sturdy beards.

>>2097822
>most

Most masters not most painters. Obviously, the shitty religious painters in the middle of nowhere didn't know the techniques, that's why their work is shit.

But every master used either mirrors or camera obscuras.

And every ancient greek bronze sculptor used the cast technique on living models.
It has been proven because not only the anatomy was perfect, but also the weight proportion, and the weight seen in the foot print.

>>2097932
they used athletes for everything, that does not imply they were also wearing that face and beard

>>2097818
Commercial art is judged solely by results and commercial artists use shortcuts to get the result their client demands of them?

What a shock.

>>2097932
>The greeks must've been ripped

The models were. What's surprising about that? Do you think the artists invented muscles they didn't even see in real life?

As for the beard, hair details may have been added obviously, that's why that's the least reaslitic part of these sculptures.
Maybe the dicks as well, because it's not easy to cast a flaccid penis.

Right, because all sculptures are made in real scale, and people just forgot how to cheat at some point.

>people produced better art with wax and boxes with holes in them than people with access to modern technology because they were cheating, wake up sheeple!

>>2097818
If one only copies it will never be better than the copy, someone who expand on the knowledge and his own personal preferences can bend the rules to make a more interesting piece than someone who just does photorealist drawings and or paitings.

I especially like how they took casts of drapery

Have you ever seen any of their art work in real life? When you do, you will realize why we call them masters. Until then stfo.

Physique completely attainable by a dude with 3rd century diet, coming through!

Those Greeks with their 4g test production, jelly as fuck

Yeah that explains bronze that can be poured into a cast, but marble still has to be chipped away and refined from a huge block of it. How is there any shortcut to this?

>>2097953
people forgot the earth was round at some point

>>2097962
Yeah, so the sculptor just invented a physique he has never seen.

Not only he didn't use a cast, but he invented ripped physique as an artistic concept!
And only centuries later, people discovered muscles do exist in real life.

>>2097974
>perpetuating that myth

>>2097976
What?

>>2097944
> Do you think the artists invented muscles they didn't even see in real life?

No, they exaggerated it, just like people do today.
Also, I doubt there existed many Mr Olympia sized Greeks back then. The average athlete certainly didn't look like that. I suggest looking up what athletes looked merely 120 years ago. They're nowhere near the sculptures' size.

In fact, Eugen Sandow is considered the first real bodybuilder in the world, and was almost a freak of nature in his time, more than 2000 years after the Greek civilization was at its peak. It's unlikely that any Greeks could have attained this physique, given that weight lifting and nutrition wasn't even a thing back then.

As far as size is concerned, compare this to the Hercules posted above.

>>2097818
Dont expect much approvel for such theories here, it would be an insult to the holy cow Art of /ic/. People tend to forget that of sculpotors and painters simply had a job and no one cared much about how they "cheated" by using lenses, mirrors or casts as long it helped with a cheaper, faster solution and a better end product. Yes, it is awesome to be able to produce same results without that help, but most people simply didnt care and good artists were extremly expensive and rare. Do you care much for a easily repairable cell phone nowadays? Would you pay the extra price? Hardly anyone does that.

>>2097986
>what are greek gymnasiums
>what are the olympic games
>what is weightlifting in ancient Greece

http://olympic-weights.org/history-of-weightlifting/history-of-weightlifting-in-ancient-greece-and-rome

A top athlete could lift a stone of 150 kilos.

>>2097974
From what I've read, that was fairly shortlived. In the early middle ages, it was taken for granted that the earth was round. It wasn't until the late middle ages that the Catholic leadership somehow decided that the earth was flat.

I also don't understand why Gelileo Galilei is considered so revolutionary, given that Columbus sailed west in order to reach India, because he figured that the Earth was round. To put it into perspective, Columbus died almost 60 years before Galileo Galilei died.

>>2097986
I agree with your post, but I'm pretty sure the Greeks understood weight lifting and many of them had fairly muscular physiques. Obviously not to the level of something like Laocoon, but they lived active lifestyles and did lots of sports and feats of strength. If I remember correctly, there are many weights they used, mostly made out of rocks and stuff. So it's not as ideal as something like a barbell that you can change the weight of and control very precisely, but they did have weights that they would train with and do various lifts to build muscle. Compare that to Sandow's time when this sort of thing was out of the norm entirely. In fact I'm pretty sure Sandow looked to the Greeks quite a lot when it came to building muscle and proportions.

>>2097996
I fail to see your point.
Weightlifting is about lifting as much as possible, which requires staying on a very calorie rich diet. This gives you both muscles and fat. There's a reason the vast majority of modern weightlifters who aren't forced to fit into a weight class, also carry a large amount of fat.

Bodybuilding actually restricts peak strength due to the extremely hard diet you have to be on to gain muscle and remove fat, along with the cardio that strips away muscle.

They didn't have the knowledge to build bodies like that back then, nor did they have any athletic competitions that would benefit from having that type of body.

>>2097998
Except that's not how bodybuilding works. Bodybuilding is an extreme sport that limits your potential in favor of looks. If you're going to for strength or an athletic body, you'll never end up looking like a bodybuilder. I mean, you don't see any Arnolds in the Olympics.

>>2097997
Traditional weightlifting has always existed in Europe.

It's not like it's hard to find a fucking stone.

>>2097997
Because people who don't like religion need martyrs, and will rewrite history to get them. Galileo got fucked because he was a dick and openly ridiculed what was probably the most powerful man in the world at the time.

Just like people whine about the Inquisition, even though it was probably the most just system around at the time.

I don't even like catholics, but their bullshit is needlessly exaggerated.

>>2097996
Go to >>>/fit/ and ask them if ANYONE, genetic freak or not, could attain and/or sustain that mass back then.

>>2097968
there is, you use a stick paralel to the flloor and move points from the reference to the piece, you dig to that point, there you copy, that's also the way romans copied some greek statues, but meh, not every piece was done this way obviously

>>2097997
>Columbus died almost 60 years before Galileo Galilei died.

I mean to say:

Columbus died almost 60 years before Galileo Galilei was born.

>>2098009
Klokov begs to differ. Just because many strength athletes also have fat doesn't mean they all do or that an aesthetic body can't be very strong.

>>2098015
Pretty sure he's disagreeing with the comment on Greeks not understanding weightlifting. And I think as long as you exercise smartly and eat a ton, you can support quite a lot of mass, especially if you start young and have good genetics. There's no reason people living in a Greek society couldn't maintain a 4000 calorie diet. They didn't have steroids so would eventually hit a limit to their size, but I bet some of them were about Sandow's mass (especially given that Sandow and other bodybuilders of his era were all quite short which helps give them a more massive appearance without as much muscle).

>>2098029
You are completely disregarding the society they lived in, not to mention the actual food they had access to. It's not easy to look like Sandow TODAY, and you can just walk into a store and buy your own weight in chicken breast.

>>2098029
also, they were not very tall, so it's easier to gain.

>>2098034
These people were the top athletes of their time, not peasants, they had all the food they wanted.

>>2098034
The harder part about looking like that today has to do with the training regimen than access to food. Yeah, we don't see many people looking like him today. But that's cause people now live very sedentary lives for the most part, and many people who go to the gym don't go often enough or train hard enough or train with with progressions. If you've ever trained at a high frequency you know you will eat a ton naturally to maintain that level of activity. As long as you get enough calories and a decent amount of protein it should be pretty much okay.

>>2098040
All the food an athlete needed, maybe. Not all the food a bodybuilder needed. And you're fucking retarded if you think any Greek had access to food of the quality or type anyone in Europe or US has today.

>>2098029
Klokov is in a weight class that restricts his size.
He has access to modern training equipment and nutrition.
He's full of steroids.

You seriously need to stop basing your views on ancient civilization on Hollywood. You can look at athletes in the Olympics from the 1930s, who were lightyears ahead of the ancient Greeks. By today's standards, they look almost out of shape.

This is hard to believe only because of the lack of documentation, you would think artists would WANT other people to use the mirror contraption so they can document the world and take "photographs"

>So what the point of inventing things, and training over and over, when you can just copy?

Why paint a picture when you can just capture one with a camera?

>>2098131
>Why paint a picture when you can just capture one with a camera?
So how many pictures and sculpturs are affected of this? None? "Thanks" for bringing it up anyway.

>>2097944
Must've been really difficult for the models to hold this pose.

>>2098131
And how many painting and sculptures were made, before camera was invented? Would people really care much how they were made when the end result is better than the ones of average artist who doesnt rely on such tricks?

>>2098165
that's from the XIXth century

>>2097944
the depiction of the ideal body in greek art has its roots in egyptian art, which mathematically breaks down proportions into a perfect figure.
comparing the greek kouros to earlier egyptian sculpture:
>The system of proportion in the second Egyptian canon of the Saite period consisted of a grid of twenty-one and one fourth parts, with twenty-one squares from the soles of the feet to a line drawn through the centres of the eyes. The grid was applied to the surface of the block being carved, allowing the major anatomical features to be located at fixed grid points. Iversen has shown that the New York kouros conforms to this ratio of proportion.
greek art, unlike roman veristic portraiture, is about conforming to an ideal standard for the human figure.

>>2097962
He seems 'unattainably ripped' partly because the sculptor was well versed in proportion.Instead of the usual 7 or 8 head-length body, Hercules here has like 9 or 10 head-lengths (aka a super small head compared to his body, making his body seem more ripped).

Even then its faulty to assume the Greek and Romans who were obsessed with fitness couldnt find a way to make their own steroids, whether drinking urine from a bull or horse in heat, etc to achieve an unnatural-looking physique.

>>2098004
>They didn't have the knowledge to build bodies like that back then, nor did they have any athletic competitions that would benefit from having that type of body.

Nutrition I have no idea on what the ancient Greek standard was, but there's a ton of athletic events with ripped champions. Pictured: Alexander Karelin, wrestler.

>>2098190

>>2098246
Nigger, you don't know what you're talking about. Test existed in Sandow's time, it was extracted from dog testicles, and bodybuilders used it.

Some guys on the scene today blast on 7 grams of test a week. You could snort a herd of ground bulls and still come nowhere near that amount.

Also,
>they were obsessed with fitness
>therefore they had knowledge of biochemistry
It's like you're retarded.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kbZHnTVOAYg

Karelin is a fucking genetic mutant that eats steroids for breakfast. Have you seen that monster wrestle? He's like fucking Goliath, and he's about as natty as a 90s pornstar.

Amazing genes, but hardly non-augmented.

>>2097818
>wax casts on living models
sure.....

Pro tip: Every today pro athlete today is on steroids.

If you take a look at bodybuilders from the 30's and earlier you get a good estimate of natty limit. People are Sandow are pretty much natty limit and they don't even come close to some statues.
Thus we can conclude that homo statues from back in the day were made using artistic knowledge and not some gay wax system.
Also, some statues can get pretty intricate with people suspended in the air and what not.

I also know that Michelangelo for example had a huge boner for just 'raw drawing skill'.
He believed in thing like 'just measuring with the eye' and that draftsmanship lays the foundation for good paintings and sculpting.
He doesn't seem like the type of nigga that would use a bunch of tricks.
He was also very good at drawing from imagination, obviously.
If you take a look at the work of someone like Peter Paul Rubens it's also pretty obvious that no camera trickery was used.

>>2098446
Not this anon, but everyone seems to also be forgetting that accentuating musculature is pretty easy if you know your anatomy. All those muscles are there, and they are much easier to see if you remove the skin and much more pronounced, even on non ripped specimens.

Leonardo was far from the first person to dissect things in order to understand them better for his art.

This whole idea that either
a) people were natty as fuck and people made molds
or
b) artists *invented* super muscular people without any anatomical knowledge

is hilarious.

Yeah, cast in marble, good one anon

(I know that Bernini was a fucking monster, but that's the best example to prove the bullshit on op's point)

>>2098559
this, 100%....

>>2098446
>Pro tip: Every today pro athlete today is on steroids.
Not true at all. There are a few sports where the majority are on steroids for at least parts of the year, but many other sports have a mostly clean athletes. It probably also depends at what tier of athlete they are, I mean, "pro-athlete" is a very very board term.

>>2098357

>they were obsessed with fitness
>therefore they had knowledge of biochemistry

dont be foolish. why do you assume the ancients had to know biochemistry to see effects certain things have? Did Hippocrates know the biochemical makeup of willow bark, that the salicylic acid produces its anti-inflammatory effects via suppressing the activity of cyclooxygenase, an enzyme that is responsible for the production of the pro-inflammatory mediators prostaglandin? It seems unlikely that he did. But fortunately, it works for people whether they know how it works or not, and they have recorded use of ground willow bark for a fever reducer and pain reliever in Ancient Greece, what we call advil.

I never claimed they had access to enough testosterone to achieve the muscle mass we can today, merely its foolish to think they didnt utilize it in some form.

I read that book, and while it made a good case for Vermeer, it reeked of the standard 'i discovered a thing and now i'm going to apply it to EVERYTHING AND EVERYONE REGARDLESS OF CONTEXT I'M SO EXCITED :DDD' you see a lot in academia. The evidence for the rest of the masters was flimsy at best, so keep grindan you fuckin defeatist piece of shit.