/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>2030690
Nobody really fucking knows, even pros like Anthony, Kekai, Jason etc can't draw convincing look "gestures". Everyone has their own style and methods. In the end always think about the final product.

My best advice is to watch tons of artists drawing process on youtube and figure it out yourself. Don't sink in time with "gesture" drawing; it's an exercise for life drawing.

>>2030690
Gesture drawing is one of the most confusing things ever for beginners because basically everyone has a different approach/opinion/definition of it. As long as you capture the main action, then do whatever you want.

>>2030715
>Don't sink life in gesture drawing.
Don't listen to this idiot. Gesture drawing is one of the best exercises for figuring out how to quickly and accurately put ideas and motion down on paper, regardless of subject matter.

There are many different ways to do it, and mostly boils down to what you're most comfortable with. Proko has a good method for doing gestures if you look him up on Youtube.

>>2030724
Yea, I hear a lot of frustration goes into figure drawing. I wonder if it's possible for me to avoid this, but what would you recommend a beginner to ease them into the experience of figure drawing.

>>2030728
>proko

God damn parrot. Show me your gestures. SHOW ME.

That's right, you can't do it either. If pros gestures drawings look like scribbles yours look like inferior shit as well.

>>2030735
>I wonder if it's possible for me to avoid this

It is, remember a drawing is not well done unless it shows a state of mind hence the reason why instructors and masters say you go as you "feel it" since this is something you experience. The difficult part is experiencing what the figure is doing you need to convey what is pushing out, what is compressing in, and what the over all gesture a figure is doing.

There is no "right" way of doing gesture so as long as you are able to describe what a figure is doing; the more graceful and free flowing the figure is the better and more life like.

>>2030735
Probably focus on lots of 5 to 20 minute poses so you can get a basic understanding of the body but not sink in a ton of time rendering. Anything under 5 minutes is useless for a beginner imo. If they can't draw a semi-decent figure in 10 minutes, cutting it down to 1 or 2 minutes will be pointless.

>>2030739
I know someone told me to do 4 things when learning at a pose.
Study it, find the weight and movement, and put in proper proportion.

What do they mean by proportions?

>>2030741
Okay, will do. But how do I go about drawing a pose? I'm not sure where to start.

>>2030745
Do a few light simple lines indicating the general pose, proportions, and angles. Then do a more precise set of lines over it drawing out the figure. Probably a good idea to buy some anatomy book like Bridgman and copy out the diagrams and learn the structures.

>>2030745
As you are drawing gesture you want to keep in mind what part is in relation to another, for example the size of the hand is roughly the size of your face or where the clavicle starts and ends towards your shoulder.

Proportion is about measuring, placing landmarks as you go and constantly checking.

>>2030738
The point is not to make it look good idiot, but to put down the idea and motion of the subject in a timely manner.

>>2030738
2/5

>>2030738
3/5

>>2030738
4/5

>>2030738
5/5

>>2030749
Sounds interesting.
I'd like to make sure I have the proportions and angels as accurate as possible, will an anatomy book help with this? If so, I've heard of Bridgeman, but he has several different books. Which book should I look at first?

>>2030750
Ah, so it's measuring? I remember I did tackle drawing a human body a while back and I was told the proportions were completely off (now I remember). I know Loomis has an 8 heads tall method, but I do have a lot of trouble trying to determined how wide the shoulders should be.

Any advise on that?

>>2030768
I've found that using Robert Beverly Hale's cranial method of measurement to be much more useful as opposed to Loomis' Head method. A lot easier to understand and easy to manage when trying to figure out proportions.

>>2030768
Do head-width measurements, this is one way of measuring and helping place bony landmarks correctly. Start with measuring the brow to the bottom of the lip, then use that measurement to work your way down and see at what interesting bony landmarks it lines up to.

>>2030768
An anatomy book will make you understand what you are drawing and why things look the way they do, which will allow you to draw it better and easier. I own The Human Machine and Constructive Anatomy by Bridgman (in addition to other anatomy books by other people). Constructive Anatomy is a bit clearer, but I think both are very good and worth picking up, especially since they cost so little.

>>2030771
I youtube the person you're talking about and there looks to be a video from Proko going more depth into this method. I'll look into this.

>>2030773
I actually have a physical copy of the book "Drawing from Life" by Bridgeman. You think this will do for now?

>>2030772
Alright, so I want to attempt to draw this pose. Since I'm just starting, how "depth" should I go into drawing this pose? Or I suppose, what's the best way to approach this as a first attempt?

>>2030782
You start with the idea that you will not draw the outlines or the shapes of the figure, instead you want to first of all establish the action this is again the most difficult part of the thing because you are not copying the figure you are attempting to break it down into something abstract, an idea that can be read.

>>2030771
That's an Academic standard actually. You can find it in Perard's book. He trained at the Beaux Arts. So that tells you this kind of measuring has a long history.

>>2030788
Sounds complicated. How would you draw something like that?

>>2030796
I would draw lines that transition from one to another and imagine a river flowing through her but that's just me.

>>2030800
That sounds... interesting. I'm not too sure how that would look like, but I'll give it shot and post results on what I believe you are saying.

>>2030802
Real gestures looks like that

I drew it, I think. Did I do okay?

>>2030805
Oh interesting. But how do I get the form and everything?

V I L P P U

I

L

P

P

U

>>2030805
That's just one way of doing it, and it doesn't work for me since there's too much going on I want it simple and easy to read. The less lines the better.

>>2030807
Here's my attempt hopefully you get the idea on what I mean.

>>2030807
You don't get forms just yet all you are focusing on is action, later you start to build on top of your gesture using simple shapes and volumes to get a sense of "the whole" and you start to describe these forms by drawing over and through. Vilppu explains this better.

>>2030822
Should I read Vilppu's manual?

>>2030823
Oh, I see. Thanks for posting that up.

That just leaves me with figuring out proportions and angels. How do I practice those 2 subjects?

>>2030833
>Should I read Vilppu's manual?
Maybe.

>>2030839
Well then, I'll get on that.

Looking through Vilppu's manual, he seems to go over ways in making "action poses". I like this method a lot, however I'm wondering more about what this anon said >>2030749

>Do a few light simple lines indicating the general pose, proportions, and angles. Then do a more precise set of lines over it drawing out the figure.

So do I draw the action poses and then draw the contour over the those lines? I hope I'm reading this correctly.

>>2030833
You just keep practicing, making observations and constantly working on studying really there is no other way other than just doing it over and over again until you start to understand what you're looking at.

>>2030766
>>2030765
>>2030763
>>2030762
>>2030759
blind leading the blind
>>2030805
those are called rough-drafts
>>2030823
the frig is this shit? You smell of miku.
>>2030854
take is advice with a 1/2 grain of salt


So anyone gonna post their gestures or is it gonna be more talking?

>>2030869
I'll post another in a different stage, where's your gesture?

>>2030873

>>2030869
I honestly don't mind more talking, people have been posting some really helpful stuff.

On the other hand, I've gave it a shot and going to need more practice (obviously). I did what was quoted and attempted to capture the action gesture, then drew solid form over it. Though, drawing over it comes out looking like a cheesy outline, and since I don't know anything about the contour of the body, it won't look any better. I'm assuming this is where studying anatomy helps.

>>2030873
so you are mikufag afterall

>>2030884
No, no, don't copy the outlines only focus on the action.

>>2030886
>No, no, don't copy the outlines only focus on the action.

I apologize, didn't mean to. I was just trying to do what the previous anon stated. Looks like I failed on that part. I'll try again with the image you just posted.

By the way, where are you finding all these figures?

>>2030890
I bought this set from Proko for ten dollars but I can share them with you though this model is notorious for having unnatural poses and just being plain weird. I'll have to find where I uploaded them though.

>>2030892
>bought
;)

>>2030890
http://www.mediafire.com/download/6k58sesxt6sctti/figures_ver.zip

>>2030886
How's this? Sorry if it came out to look like another outline, but it's the only method I can think of other than the river method posted here (unless you want me to do the river method on these). I hope I captured the action of the pose.

>>2030908
Dude, don't even try to do gesture stuff, you're not at a level where you will get anything out of it. Correct the proportions and shapes on this, just focus on 2d observation for now.

>>2030913
Correct the proportions and shapes on this, just focus on 2d observation for now.

How do I practice proportions and 2D observations?

>>2030908
I was doing the same thing when I first started it's okay, what you need is more practice try to imagine one line jumping from another through the figure.

>>2030921
Oops, failed green text.
But yeah, any advise on how to practice proportions and 2D observation?

>>2030924
Ah, interesting.
Alright, I'll keep at it.

>>2030869
Gesture thread? Okay.

>>2030908
Pick up keys to drawing. Keys is like the first book in the sticky.

---
For gesture drawing get nicolaides book. Forget the "jump one line to the next" crap like what miku here told you. Doing it that way becomes formulaic. You want to be Kim Gung Gi unique? Don't follow some rules by another guy.

Nicolaides is the man that started it all and his approach doesn't have any concrete rules to follow so gesture drawing becomes experimental. >>2030805 is the end result of your scribbling efforts from life drawing. It doesn't have to be that complicated nor follow a set of rules.

Fuck hampton (watered down vilppu), fuck proko (watered down Jeff Watts). If you can't do or like Vilppu go to the original source, nicolaides.

>>2030938

These scream "I can't think for myself therefore let me use the hampton approach" gestures. Original source, negro.

>>2030939
>Pick up keys to drawing. Keys is like the first book in the sticky.

But I've went through that book and currently under going art classes for life drawing and advance perspective. For summer I'll be under going figure drawing and wanted to get a head start (hence this topic).

As for the proportions practice, how would one go about practicing that if they are suppose to avoid figure drawing? Wouldn't drawing more figures and trying to figure out human proportions be for the best?

>>2030952
>As for the proportions practice, how would one go about practicing that if they are suppose to avoid figure drawing? Wouldn't drawing more figures and trying to figure out human proportions be for the best?

You study the proportions. A good book is Paul Richer Anatomy. Figuring out if the proportions is correct just comes with drawing a lot of figures, yes.

>>2030944
Bargue actually. Anyway, can you show ur gestures?

>>2030959
>Paul Richer Anatomy

Thanks for the book recombination and clarification. I'm unsure as to why I was being lead a different path, but all types of artists here, you're bound to get all types of advise.

>>2030715
>Nobody really fucking knows

Are you retarded? Just because artists tend to have different approaches doesn't mean they don't know what they are doing. Also, maybe you should stop looking at mediocre concept artists when you want to learn about figure and gesture drawing you fucking fool. Just because someone is working professionally doesn't mean they have a great understanding of absolutely everything.

..."no one fucking knows". Holy shit man, sometimes the things you read on /ic/ just hurt your brain, they are that stupid.

>>2030939
Don't listen to this guy. Nicolaides is probably one of the worst sources to learn gesture drawing. All you will learn is to do worthless chicken scratch scribbles. Ultimately, you want your gesture to be the foundation for a finished drawing, which requires you to learn a focused and accurate approach. Hampton, Vilppu, Watts Atelier style, Mike Mattesi are all great as long as you are thinking about your lines instead of doing mindless scribbles like the crap that guy posted.

>>2030978
Way to display my point, subhuman. Instead of attacking me you could have explained to the class what gesture drawing is instead of resorting to primate ad hominem.

>>2030944
excellent argument, this post really explained what was wrong with his gestures and will surely lead him in the right direction

filtered

>>2030944
>>2030939

Gestures are a tool to create the foundation of a figure, not a way to be a unique snowflake, you fucking moron. Your name is very fitting, because you are everything that is wrong with this board. A shit tier noob who can't draw who just talks out of his ass and gives beginners terrible advice.

>>2030992
I know whats wrong actually.

>>2030995
I'm not even going to type out a long detailed post on why you're a retard. Do as you please.
>>2030995
>Gestures are a tool to create the foundation of a figure not a way to be a unique snowflake

What is unique snowflake about the picture other than not following what you pirated off CGP because you can't open a fucking book and think for yourself?


No wonder you guys suck ass so much and can never get passed plateau. Jesus H Christ.

Now back to you >>2030985 >>2030805 "scribbling" is surely mindless crap! You're working digitally for god sakes that shouldn't be a problem. You morons get dumber by the day.

Gesture Drawing has a lot of different meanings to different artists, but it usually all boils down to loosening up, simplifying what you see, and capturing the idea/action adequately. I know for me, I like Walt Stanchfield's story approach where you creatively work with the pose into a story or character (a good read is "Gesture Drawing for Animation" if you have the time. It's mostly for animators but you may find use for it in whatever you're studying). He also puts a lot of emphasis on capturing the essence of the scene to which you are viewing, which means not drawing what you see exactly, but taking what you see and simplifying it while also taking creative control manipulating things here and there. Look up Matt Jones. He is a master at doing this in humans, animals, and environments; his gestures are simple yet get the message across.

No matter your use for Gesture Drawing, though, they need to be readable, loose, and at least follow the basic rules of drawing (construction, perspective, etc.). They need to be quick as well, around .15 to 3 minutes, as if you spend too much time on one pose, they will become stiff and lose their construction. So, given those basic guidelines, gesture drawing is really anything you want it to be as long as they follow the proceeding. The best thing to do is just take a sketchbook and ink pen (pen encourages adequate line economy), draw from life, and remember to draw fast and fluidly. Eventually you'll find your own method, and apply it to whatever art you are most interested in.

maybe it's a retarded question but is there anything to gain from doing gesture drawings of non-human things and objects as well? talking mostly organic stuff things like birds, trees and plants, simple geometric buildings seem pointless.

>>2030690
Gesture drawing should be done without any inhibitions. Freely, quickly, and automatic like. Don't over think it or you'll miss the whole point. It's there only to imply energies or attitudes, most of which are for expressive purposes, while the rest of a gestures function is to get a 'feel' for where things should go.

Regardsless of whose gestural style you use, all gesture drawings capture an intrinsic spirit, an animation seen in the subject. If you can learn to see that in your subjects you will already be on your way to mastering gesture drawing.

>>2031059
Of course, just google gestures of birds for examples.

>>2031019
Gr8 b8 m8.

>>2031059
Gesture is literally just quick drawing. Drawing everything and anything quickly sharpens your eye and builds your drafting vocabulary.

It's the drawing equivalent to push-ups really. Do it everyday for an hour or two for a few years and you'll be able to draw anything. I promise.

These are gestures from the new masters youtube channel. 30 second and 1 minute poses I believe. Critique?

>>2031088
Too stiff

>>2031107
Okay! Anything in particular you think i could do to help with that?

OP here, kind of surprise no one mentioned Erik M. Gist.

Someone brought it up with me, and gotta say it's really good for entry level. Using his method till I get a better understanding, hopefully by drawing number 50 I'll catch on. After that, I'll get onto Vilppu.

>>2031112
Just loosen up a bit. There isn't some hidden technical aspect here to learn. It's so simple you can easily overthink it. In which your case you clearly did. And don't think there is secret trick her either. There isn't. It's quite simple:

Loosen up.

>>2031153

nobody brought him up because he is uses that formulaic rilley method

>>2031167
I don't see why not learn from him and once you got an idea, move on to say Vilppu or whoever else. He's a nice entry level.

>>2031169

There is nothing wrong with it but as that other anon said, you're over thinking this whole gesture thing.

>>2031176
I am? Wait, I think you're quoting the wrong anon.

>>2030939
those are some really bad gestures though

>>2030771
I have been studying figure drawing for ages and never seen this before. I guess one can learn something here.

I'm taking a figure drawing class right now and my teacher really advises everyone to block things in using the side of a conte crayon and then erase again and again until you think you got it right.

That was a recent one. Probably pretty shit but I had fun doing it.

Feel it.

/thread

>>2031886
Post your references, and try not to copy the contours or the shapes or the outlines of the model.

Why is everyone bad at gestures

>>2031886
although messy those are great. i get huge vilppu feels boner from them.

>>2031892
Because "gesture" is just a 2deep4u variation of croquis or any sketching exercise meant to serve as a warm-up before a study that likely wasn't really a thing before Nicolaides that morons blew out of proportion and misinterpret entirely.

Even Villpu draws it very methodically and extremely slowly, using a shitload of lines, going out of his way to describe form, not "motion". Proko parrots are the ones who warp the whole thing because it's what they know, and they thirst to be recognized for their knowledge after watching Prokopenko draw literally the worst gesture imaginable.

It's a good exercise and a useful tool for setting up a piece or capturing a scene quickly, it's not the crux of art people make it out to be.

It's literally warm-up. It's only essential if it's absent, and focusing on it is moronic.

>>2031914
>Proko parrots are the ones who warp the whole thing
Gesture has been a point of contention before proko hit the scene. But you're right that Nicolaides introduced it as a common thing and fucked everything up. Hell, I've been attacked in threads on /ic/ for pointing out that "gesture" as an exercise didn't exist proper and wasn't taught in schools the way it is now if you go back 100 years. Like people used to just do contour drawings rapidly rather than these scratchy scribbly things people do now. Look at Repin's quick drawings, they're all contour. And sure, people use as evidence that one Sargent drawing that is super scribbly, but when you look at his body of work of drawings you can see that wasn't his normal approach.

>>2031889
>and try not to copy the contours or the shapes or the outlines of the model.
I know that. It makes no fucking sense, but I know that.
>>2031900
>although messy those are great.
Well if they are I still don't know how to gauge that. The ones I've drawn on paper are much better I think.
>i get huge vilppu feels boner from them.
Cool, that's who I'm studying from. If this image wasn't obvious enough...

How do I know when they're good enough to use? I tried drawing one planning to use it as a base for a more detailed drawing and I didn't know what to do.

>>2031992
http://bitsnoop.com/vilppu-q5068753.html
I'm guessing you're learning from the book, try watching the videos. Just add trackers manually, speed's good.

>>2032013
Those came from one of the videos. I've watch his shit on gesture at least 30 times.

>>2032016
>>2032016
I don't know how you're not getting it, then. If you've watched it already, copy what he does as you're watching.

He varies his approach from time to time, though, so don't let that confuse you. The sketches he does at the end of the videos are great for drawing along.

>>2032020
I don't know either, I have, and I know.

>>2032051
This will take time and lots of it, be patient with yourself and do it over and over again until it becomes a necessity.

Just simplify the forms extrememly, you're not looking for the contour but the average movement in each area represented with 1 or 2 lines.

Exaggerate everything.

>>2032115

>>2032153
Good god what is the friggin point?

>>2032115
this too

pointless garbage waste of time

Just learn simplified figure drawing you stupid niggers. They take like 30-60sec, include both the gesture and a simple mannequin of the figure. Why the fuck would you sacrifice so much useful information to cut the time in half, so you can fill out a page of shitty poses that are too abstract to ground in perspective or be used in anything?

>>2032312

Shhhhh, let them feel the flow from within their balls. Us smart guys can tell whats BS and what make sense.

lmao you see sycra's gestures...lmaooooo

>>2032322
They're better than Proko's at least.

>>2032429
no

>>2032458
That's not even a gesture.

>>2032486

>>2032486
He's right, this is what a real gesture looks like

>>2032262
>dissing Erik Gist

Your pleb Is showing

>>2032489
>>2032493
>contour with squiggly forearms
>gesture

>>2030690
Gesture drawing kind of has a way of thinking to it. I'm probably going to sound like one of those kungfu movie senseis but hear me out.

You must learn to flow with the subjects you're drawing. The shapes that people are probably referring to are the natural/organic shapes that make up whatever subject you draw. You have to perceive them yourself. This takes some practice but once you learn what shapes allow you to flow with your subjects you'll be a lot more comfortable with your gesture drawings.

Of course, know your muscle and skeletal structures and follow the basic rules of anatomy. If one side of the body pinches inward then the other side stretches. I'm sure you've learned much from your classes so you probably know all this. Most important of all, relax and have fun with gesture drawings.

>>2032527
>kungfu movie senseis
>kungfu movie
>senseis
stopped reading there, weeaboo scum

Gesture drawing is a conspiracy to keep nublets from learning anything useful in figure drawing. They feel that if they can't do gesture they can't draw the human figure and thus give up eventually.

A piece of poisoned stake in the road to weed out the competition.

>>2032528

>>2030873
>>2030881

>>2032553

Why do they teach gesture first? How is a beginner suppose to know if what they're doing is right if they can't build on to it at all?

>>2032562
It's the first step you take on an approach to drawing something, you want to describe what it's doing before you start adding form and shape.

>>2032569
Shape construction has far more success in building forms from a ground level than gestures in my opinion, the only real value of gesture drawing is just practicing posing from a sense of weight, balance, and flow. It's more abstract than box construction and shit, but it develops the sort of aesthetic intuition you need to actually come up with good lines and subtle nuances in your creative work.

Wow, I was really optimistic about this thread when I found it in the catalog, but ugh, it just cements the fact that gesture is kind of... difficult to define and a subject of debate.

I'm a total beginner. But I've done my digging and I know that gesture should involve or use the concepts of:
> capturing motion, mass and flow
> line of action
> line weight
> avoiding explicitly copying the model / contour

But I see a lot of differing ideas and no real concrete ways to approach it. Some say scribble like crazy. Others take the time to put down more deliberate, flowing lines.

Overall, I'd say I struggle with moving beyond the contour of the drawing (as that was sort of the approach I was taught when doing Keys to Drawing). There's also the struggle of preserving proportionality when there's a time limit. What should I do? Just keep trying on Quickposes and local Life Drawing sessions until I'm really feeling it?

>>2032576

There are many ways of going about drawing and none are wrong insofar you manage to create a passable piece in a way that makes sense to you. That's why shit like gesture, composition, stylization, etc are so heavily debated on /ic/, because there is no right answer, "no rules just tools." There are clear rights and wrongs when it comes to anatomy and perspective so there's nothing to fucking debate and bitch to each other about.

>>2032525
>gets across the idea and action of a pose

yes it is a gesture

>>2032618
>gets across the idea and action of a pose
>literally anything

>>2032671
no rules just tools
o l
r o
u o
l t
e t
s faggot s
j u
u j
s s
t e
t l
o u
o r
l o
sloot tsuj selur on

>>2032586
Nigger you are making it more complicated than it needs to be.

I don't think gesture drawing will help you right now, you need to spend longer actually learning human proportions and other elements of art before you can do gesture, otherwise you will have those squiggly pieces of shit forever.

Go study proportion some more, do some figure drawings, do gesture when you have a better understanding of what you're doing.

If you think you're ready to do gesture, actually listen to the advice in the thread, most of it is decent shit.

>>2032692

Noted. Thanks.

>>2032692
He can do gesture while he's studying proportion he just needs better observational skills it will develop over time he just needs to keep doing it.

>>2032700

Ok. A little different advice here.
I don't know, I've heard it both ways. I think I'm past the symbol drawing stage as I'm attempting to draw what I see rather than from my own knowledge, and I was recommended through a combination of /ic/'s input, the sticky and other sources that gesture, life drawing and perspective were good places to move to as a beginner.

>>2032704
This might sound redundant but download all of Loomis's books while you still can, study both fun with a pencil to learn about basic forms and construction while studying successful drawing for linear perspective and perspective made easy from ernest norling.

Then go and pick up Vilppu's material both of these helped me understand more of what you've been hearing.

http://www.alexhays.com/loomis/

>>2032708

I have, actually!
I have Fun with a Pencil at the ready. Should I work on that alongside Perspective Made Easy and Keys to Drawing?

>>2032717
I don't know about keys to drawing but you should definitely study successful drawing.

>>2032717
Download force dynamics, life drawing for animators.

Figure drawing design and invention by hampton

Also anatomy for sculptors is really cool.

>>2032784

They both look really cool, but are they geared towards beginners?

>>2032798
Just torrent the books dude, if they're too complex for you, don't use them until you're a little better.

anatomy for sculptors is a good book for learning muscle structure. You can find it on cgpeers.

Force dynamic is a great book on learning gesture, goes over all the elements that make a good gesture drawing

Figure drawing and design is a great book for learning how to build a human form in 3d space along with showing how it's constructed, its much less dry than a loomis book.

Loomis is good and all but his books are so outdated and boring. His female figures have built in high heels for christs sake.

FYI, I aslo recommend looking up the Reilly method and the Abstraction method. both are VERY good ways of learning anatomy that have a very natural feel to them. Erik Gist is a good teacher for this and I'm pretty sure you can torrent a figure drawing book by him to.

>>2032814

Alright, thanks.

>>2032593
that's why I said in my opinion

>>2032814
those are so developed for gestures, might as well be simplified figures. I think the lines for defining what a gesture is is too vague, just like how some people think speedpaints can be 6 hours long, which is fucking ridiculous for digital.

People should just strive for both speed and quality, good results and volume will be achieved if everyone just approached it that way, instead of trying to rush 10 second spaghetti shits all over a page.

>see this thread in catalog cause I wanna learn gesture too
>all this fucking arguing
>no one method even has a considerable amount of representation more than another

jesus all of you are faggots

>>2032925
They're more of quicksketches, or whatever Jeff Watts called them, it's just a mislabel.

>>2032925
>People should just strive for both speed and quality
I would be happy to do that if I knew what a "quality" gesture drawing fucking looked like.

>>2032692
>do gesture when you have a better understanding of what you're doing.
But everyone teaches gesture first. There isn't even a little bit of a consensus on this shit.

>>2033134
>>2033134
The trick is to not listen to the teacher and find what works for you. Hampton says it pic related. Watch his Q&A and he says he does different approaches to gesture for certain poses. Vilppu constantly says "no rules, just tools" and many times you can see him blocking out the figure in wash or airbrush instead of line; constantly saying "it doesn't matter how you get the gesture just capture the action." Proko and Marshall joke about getting the gesture by dabbing a straw in coffee and marking the page with gestures.

I think it's an American problem though. Every other country calls gesture "quick sketch" like it should be. Therefore there should be a greater importance on human proportions and other elements and less on splurging out about feeling the flow.

tldr; don't listen to the teacher

>>2033153
I just want something that consistently works so I can move on to something that makes more sense.

>>2033158
You're never gonna find it. All the teacher can do is TRY to tell you what he is doing what he internally already knows how to do without thinking. Teaching gesture is like teaching someone to breathe.

>>2031900
Can I see some of your gestures?

>gesture thread
>32 posters in this thread
>146 posts
Looks like you have a lot a free time for blah-blah-blah. Post your own gestures at least.

>>2033191
Those are nice. And I did already.

>>2033191
you have pressure opacity or whatever it's called on?

>>2033191
looks like shit.

>>2033191
why

>>2033206
Not him, but give me an example of a good gesture then. I'm dying for one.

>>2033243
Sure, hampton babby.

>>2033244
And what makes that better? The details? I'm not picking a fight, I'm just a newfag looking for useful knowledge.

>>2033243

>>2033248

The fact that it has actual useful information. The fact that it isn't following your pirated textbook. The fact that there is skillful draftsmanship. The fact that it isn't done on a computer. The fact that it's beautiful in every way.

>>2033254
gestures of still life

>>2033254
Well that was about as useful as anything else I've read.

>>2033258

>>2033258
Looks like dicks
>>2033254
Calm down gramps
>>2033249
Stiff
>>2033244
Wow her head is tilted, what a prodigy

>>2033263
You like dicks, we get it.

>>2033269
Fug you dweeb my dad is a cop he will arrest you

>>2033269

>>2033276
(As I pull out my stock)

Draw me like one of your French girls.

>>2033276
Your dad likes cock too, we get it.

What gesture boils down to is the ability to describe what something is doing without words. The more clear and easy to read a gesture the better. When you see someone filling a page full of gesture drawings they're not worried about drawing a figure with form and shape instead they're focusing on what the figure is doing.

You may add simple volumes to give a sense of a whole while doing gesture to better describe the figure but at that point in time you are starting to add more information to help the viewer perceive a sense of depth and space it's at this point where you start to add forms and put these forms in perspective the more you describe this the better the illusion of reality.

>>2033280
You know it baby

>>2033281
When I did that and posted them I was told not to draw curvy stickfigures. Everything contradicts everything else.

>>2033299
There are different ways of doing gesture, whatever makes sense to you but most importantly what makes sense to your viewer will they be able to get an impression of a free flowing and moving figure?

You may use the mechanics of movement through sequential lines to better assist this necessity in gesture.

>>2033303
>whatever makes sense to you
I don't know what makes sense to me because I don't know what I'm doing. I don't have a good frame of reference because everyone does their shit differently.
>sequential lines
You mean the ones Vilppu drew, right?

>>2033306
>everyone does their shit differently

precisely why I say whatever makes sense to you, there is no "right" way of doing gesture so as long as you are able to show an action that is clear and easy to read. Vilppu almost always uses sequential lines exclusively because it is easier for him and doesn't leave a mess he used other examples such as using a shammy on a canvas.

>>2033306

That's why you have to use a little thing called critical thinking. You try all the methods different teachers discuss, figure out which parts make sense to you, and incorporate them into your drawings.

>>2033254
>The fact that there is skillful draftsmanship

"draftsmanship" is not a term that should be applied to art, nor should the goal of gesture or art to have a draftsman quality. the only time that should be the goal is if you're actually doing architectural or engineering drawings, which is really not what we talk about on /ic/

>>2033254
>If it's drawn on a computer is inherently bad

>>2033531
Wrong. You can be as the artsiest faggot on the block, your work will still be shit if you're shit at drawing. Drawing is a craft, "art" is what you do with it. Same with music or woodwork or whatever.

Chain, weakest link, etc. etc.

>>2033716
disgusting

>>2034084
Just ignore him.
>>2034120
>>2030990
>>2032262

>>2034226
Stop being assmad, miku.

>>2034232
btw that guy in the other thread isn't me

>>2034234
>isn't me
nice try Dr. Dude

>>2034191
I am aware.

Hows this? I'm using the Pixellovely thing, but there aren't really a lot of actual 'gestures' there I think

>>2034405
Try not to break your lines, do one confident stroke. Another way you can visualize a figure is imagine the threads that make up the nervous system and blood vessels, we're comprised of mostly fluid so it makes sense to imagine these threads or strings as a flowing river.
>>2034408
Try not to copy the contours.

>>2034413
>Try not to break your lines
But muh Vilppu.

>>2034414
I meant breaking lines that cause a hairy line, when you jump from one line to another you want to do it with a rhythm as if it's moving to it's next destination by a pressure.

Dudes....seriously....just learn anatomy and shit.

>>2034415
Oh, yeah you're right. I need to quit chicken scratching.

I do line confidence stuff on paper but it doesn't seem to carry over to digital very well. Maybe its because my tablet is small.

>>2034084
Yes.

>>2034416
/thread

>>2034416
Great explanation! Everything is solved!

Where do you guys find the gestures you draw? I use this tool if any new guys need it: http://artists.pixelovely.com/practice-tools/figure-drawing/

>>2034529
I use that and the Academic Observation.avi that comes with Vilppu's stuff.

How are these then?

>>2034550
awful

again you guys are thinking way too hard on this

>>2034558
I know that, but I in the left one for example I need to use shapes to convey the pose correctly - what is awful about them? I think the weight is quite well done

>>2034562
>quite well done

Dunning-Kruger at its worst.

you know i thought that it was just my teacher that sucked at teaching gesture drawing, but now i know its a universal constant. this thread is my favorite.

>>2034413
Having to stop to erase when I fuck up takes up a lot of time.

>>2034596
Surely you mean pretentiousness

>>2034191
Post your work.

>>2030690

As others said (but I want to express it because it drove me crazy nobody told me this in all of the places I looked), gesture drawing is almost totally undefined bullshit across artists. You can basically define it as capturing the form or movement of a person/thing relatively quickly. Some people will draw squiggly lines and insist you aren't supposed to capture the shape or contour of the subject, and others will draw a minimalistic shape or contour of the subject with clean strokes. One thing that's pretty typical is the artists seems to just try to make it look good. Even if somebody is just standing upright, the artist tries to make it look like their posture is dynamic.

How is this?

http://www.ctrlpaint.com/videos/quick-pose-gesture-sketching

>>2035189

>listening to a concept artist how to draw the figure

How about no?

>>2035189
It's a fine method, so I think Vilppu and Proko have better gesture drawings.

There's no wrong way to do gestural drawings as long as you get the action. Look at how other artists do it, and then do your own drawings while keeping in mind on capturing the action and how those artists perform that.

What matters most is 1. practice and 2. finding whatever way works for you the best and still does its job. That applies outside of gesture drawing and a lot of people tend to overthink this instead of 'do'.

>>2035229
>though I think*

>>2030908
this helped me out

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ktfwayByRU

I don't understand how to draw gestures from life with simple graphite or mechanical pencil. The line is too thin.

>>2033299
>Everything contradicts everything else.
no it does not.

>>2035337
They still look better than mine.

>>2035337
just don't redraw the same line to increase thickness, simply draw the thickness intended by using 2 lines. Example is digital but same idea.

Ya'll should watch Steve Houston and Vilppu's gesture videos on New Masters Academy channel.

Guys, I think I've cracked it.

The point of a gesture is to summarize a subject. Just like summarizing a book, you are going to lose a lot of detail, but as long as you can get the most important bits right then you're doing fine.

The mark of a good summation is how it flows, just like in gesture. You're not trying to see an arm, a leg, a rib cage, etc. You're trying to see the overall form of the subject, capture it's movement, it's positioning, without muddling it with detail.

A good gesture is clear, to the point, and effective. A bad gesture seems disjointed, has no suggestion of movement or volume, doesn't get any clear idea of the subject across. The use of gestures is to be able to quickly jot down the boiled down form of the subject, that way it can be either built back up or used in different artworks.

Gesture helps one build a library of poses in their head to draw upon and recombine into interesting works. A gesture can be used as a blueprint to start off a more detailed drawing, but that isn't it's primary use.

>>2035885
you must be a genus

>>2032525

>never copy the model, analyze it
>feel the flow
>capture movement

This is all bullshit. Like, it is almost mind boggling how standard this shit has become, as though it is necessary, when it is clearly a glorified warm up at best used to get beginners into simply sketching figures.

It didn't even exist when the masters were painting and drawing. People try to explain what a gesture is as though it is some sort of real thing, when it is just a minimalistic, quick sketch of a figure with a name. You don't lose anything by just learning construction or how to use contours. Contour lines have fucking MOVEMENT IN THEM. Your eyes follow the lines. Gesture is not special in any way, it's only unique quality is that it is quick and bare bones. If art teachers would just say "gesture is a quick, minimal drawing of a figure" there wouldn't be so much hocus pocus around the thing. Now you've got people acting like it is a fundamental, as though you've got to master gesture with all of its "flow" and "movement" and "FEELING", and it's just stick figures.

>>2035902
surprisingly enough, not every single artist wants to be a fine artist or illustrator. it is absolutely essential for animators to be able to gesture effectively in order to draw with a certain fluidity and realness when it comes to animating.

The better you are at gesturing, the more likely you are to draw a more natural looking figure when you give it the proper construction and detail.

>>2035913
No one wants to be an animator.
Those who've failed at everything else become animators.

>>2035925
lmao o.k. d00d keep telling yourself that

>>2035902
You're just not feeling it. Stop projecting, start feeling that pelvis pushing out.

All of you are dumbasses. You know what the problem is? You have too much shit to torrent that you cannot simply sit down and dissect the information because you got a $900 class for free.

You have more tutorials than the rice eaters in korea and japan have that they wish they could understand (english) and yet somehow they're better than you. Why is that? Well for starters they don't sit down in a thread and discuss something as trivial as gesture drawing..holy shit man.

>>2035933
dubs my nigga DUBS

>>2035933
Why did you crop that?

>>2035902
>It didn't even exist when the masters were painting and drawing.

Oh how wrong you are.

>>2035937

I didn't and it is the wrong image but whatever.

>>2035913
>it is absolutely essential for animators
>animators

Animation where? There is no 2D animation industry in the west.

>>2035943
?? disney, nickelodeon, CN??? ?

i want you to tell me what /you/ think goes into making 3D animation. just tell me. i'm curious. tell me where you think it starts.

>>2035948

Cartoon network shows are all animated in South Korea. Disney has like one cartoon...penis an ferb? Nick only has spongebob and a pseudo adventure time.
>i want you to tell me what /you/ think goes into making 3D animation

What does that have to do with anything?

>>2035954
animation involves concepts, backgrounds, storyboards, visual development, all that.

the same thing goes into 3D animation.

i don't get why people think all the work happens in the actual animating. It takes a lot of work to get up to the final animation.

>>2035960
That has nothing to do with gesture drawing though which if you're animating you will be doing those "gesutre" drawings so that's the only part that matters.

>>2035965
I hope you see what I did there. If not you all are idiots.

>>2035933
As much as I hate to agree with a faggot on /ic/, I gotta say you're right.

>>2035938
>>2035938
Prove it.

Protip: you can't.

>>2035839
>watching a gesture tutorial
>vilppu's talking about training your neurons
And I thought his idea of musculature was wacky.

>>2035902
That's because the masters were always copying models you fucking dumbass. You don't need a gesture to copy what's right in front of you, the masters had other measurement methods and that's part of the reason why most of their work looked stiff and unnatural as fuck compared to modern masters who do make use of gestures.

>>2036216

>and that's part of the reason why most of their work looked stiff and unnatural as fuck compared to modern masters
You know nothing stop talking out your ass. The reason we call them masters is because they truly were masters.

>You don't need a gesture to copy what's right in front of you
That's the sole purpose of life drawing; to discover all what nature and the model is presenting you, you draw from the inside out. You gain a better understanding from life and can apply it to imagination and cartooning.

>>2036216
>the masters were always copying models
Have you even seen their paintings and drawings, you retard?

>>2036227
also
>That's because the masters were always copying models you fucking dumbass
Surely Michaelangelo found a man to hold a pose strangling a demon lion for 6 hours straight. That's it! /ic/ is truly full of retards.

>>2036216
dunno if you have ever been to a life drawing class, but this would be very difficult to model

Is there anything similar to this site that's off line?

http://artists.pixelovely.com/

>>2036828
there's always real life, like going outside to a park or something

>>2036834
This site in particular helps to keep going longer than I normally would. I wanna combine it with cutting myself off from the internet.

>>2037342

Be more loose, the lines won't bite you.

>>2037405
Are all of them stiff? The one in the middle and the one to the right of it seem alright to me.

>>2037410
The right middle I guess is the best one. I wouldn't say stiff but they all have this repetitive quality to the mark making is why I said be loose. But that's just my preference. Why? Well you'll be able to 'feel' the pull more rather than committing to one line like I see you drawing one line for the spine all the way to the torso.

Try using a bigger round brush so you aren't focusing on individual lines as an experiment.

>>2036834

Nothing beats real life for reference

>>2030939


So I learned gesturing via the nicolaides way, which is basically the "go nuts and draw through the subject" approach. I recommend it.

After a long while (a few months) I learned straight line curve gesturing, (using C, S or I lines) to make said gestures cleaner.

Gestures are pretty much the under drawing to keep your illustrations not-stiff looking. So if it helps your drawings not look like marionettes, you're probably doing it right.

>>2037428
>I wouldn't say stiff but they all have this repetitive quality to the mark making is why I said be loose.
I don't know how to be random without it looking like nothing, but I'll try.

>>2037428
Are these any better? I have no idea what I'm doing.

>>2037497
I think you should practice on single still images and drop the timer for now. This isn't a race and nobody is looking over your shoulder to see if you drew a pose under 30 seconds. I made a worksheet for you; see if you can feel out the pose the nicolaides way as >>2037450 talks about (being loose). You have the idea of direction somewhat but you worry about the placement of your lines to make it "look human" so it comes off stiff.

>>2035933
This guy gets it.

>>2037515
>I think you should practice on single still images and drop the timer for now. This isn't a race and nobody is looking over your shoulder to see if you drew a pose under 30 seconds.
I was doing that with Vilppu's "Academic Observation" video. I like using the timer better because I get a lot more done. And its not because of the time limit itself, it keeps me from getting lazy after I finish a few. I keep it set on 2 minutes but I spend more than that on each of them. Around 5 minutes maybe?
>I made a worksheet for you; see if you can feel out the pose the nicolaides way as >>2037450 talks about (being loose).
I have no idea how to do that and dudes post doesn't help. I guess I'll look up nicolaides later.

How is my brush? Should make it bigger?

>>2037515
Even if I'm not using your method you're been a huge help. Always drawing a long line for the spine was a bad habit.

>>2033299
>taking advice from /ic/ and following it religiously.

>>2037698
>>2037721

Just keep at it and you'll find what works and what doesn't.

>>2035902
>the masters

>>2035902
>>2035925

>>2030899
AWESOME

thank you so much. is there a male one somewhere?

>halfway through a sketch
>hit stop by accident
>can't find the image
Dammit.

Yesterday I couldn't draw for shit. This is all I got done.

>>2040678
TOO STIFF!
How can none of you not see this? What is so hard to understand about loosing up?

Also yours look too formulaic. Your lines don't search, they mimic another man's gestures

>>2040702
>What is so hard to understand about loosing up?
Because it doesn't make any sense just saying it. Give me an example of a loose gesture.
>Also yours look too formulaic. Your lines don't search, they mimic another man's gestures
Well I've only been practicing gesture for a few weeks.

>>2040702
How are the two closest to the right? I tried doing it differently.

>>2030839
Body on fox girl seems fucked

>>2040709
Loosing up means to stop being so self conscious about what you're doing. It means feeling the kinesthesia of your subject, continuously search, continuously exploring. It should be intuitive, emotional, expressive; not correct and not precise.

I hesitate to show you an example because you might just end up copying it like you've been doing. You're like all the rest here, you see the figure before you see the gesture.

Pic related this shows good gesture. It explores without worry, it was done intuitively.

Try this:

Extend your time for each each gesture to five minutes, keep moving your pencil for the whole duration and don't lift it what so ever until the time is up. Search and explore, search and explore, search and explore...

>>2040714
Go to paper. Youre still way way way too stiff. I can see self consciousness in every wiggle of every line. It's like you don't want to learn you just want it to look like somebody's gestures.

>>2040732
Okay, I'll try.
>>2040735
>Go to paper.
I do both.
>I can see self consciousness in every wiggle of every line
I don't feel self-conscious with this like I do with drawing other stuff, but okay.

>>2040732
>five minutes
I finished in much less time than that. If I go for the whole time limit its just gonna be a mess.

This is fucking horrible.

>>2040744
>its just gonna be a mess.
That's the fucking point. You lose all inhibition.

>>2040753
Those are the best so far. Still a little stiff but they a feel to them

>>2040739
>I don't feel self-conscious
You fucking lying son of a bitch. You should be dragged out into the street and shot in the back of the head.

>>2040789
I fucking hate continuous line drawing just like I thought I would, but I'll keep going for another page at least. Also Vilppu's gestures don't look like a mess.

This is what I meant about everything contradicting everything else. Everyone here has a different opinion on what a good gesture is.

>>2040816
Vilppu has been doing it longer than you've been alive.

He started with mess just like all other artist before and after him. Over time he got proficient at it. But that didn't happen until after he lost inhibitions, when started to "feel it" without worry.

Quit lying to yourself, you're only hurting your art.

>>2040827
But he doesn't teach drawing a mess.

>>2040841
those who can't learn to recondite become shit

Despite all the arguing near the top, this is a nice thread. I can see that people are learning a lot, so thanks, /ic/. Tomorrow I'm going to try some things out after downloading a book and report back.

I don't know how to keep this up for 5 minutes.

>>2040861
I have the same problem with my penis

>>2040868

This wasn't 5 minutes either.

>>2040861
>I'm a quitter
>I like to quit
>It's all I ever known

>>2040877
Look at the post above yours. I'm still trying despite fucking hating this.

Okay there, I spent 5 minutes on the one on the right. Any good?

360 poses of 10 seconds each = 1 hour

>>2040888
you deserve those trips

>>2040883
Do it on paper!
Do it on paper!
Do it on paper!

These are still TOO STIFF.

You're just shaking your wrist back and forth. If you wanted to masturbate that bad why make a fucking thread about gesture drawing?

These do not have any exploration, nor searching.

But they do have an energy not found in your wiggly shit from earlier.

>>2040893
Are you this >>2040732 anon?

>>2040888
I'm having connection problems, that's why it's taking so long to post the rest. Tomorrow I'll do 120 drawings of 30 seconds.

I didn't read thread by the way.

>>2040895
Why?

>>2040896
10 seconds it's nothing, it's a flash, it's just the time you have to tell if the figure is standing or not. It doesn't matter if it is man or woman, or if it has interesting distracting details. You need to solve it with a swoosh.

>>2040893
Hey, it doesn't matter if it's done on paper or not. If you are comfortable with the tablet it won't make a difference.

>>2040902
After a while you get into some sort of trance with drawing. There is something about going from start to finish that is healthy to the practice, at the hundred mark, you stop questioning the method or judging yourself by what you do and you focus on your job.

>>2040900
Why what? I wanna know the opinion of the one who originally told me to try this.

>>2040906
I used a 6b pencil on A4 paper. Four drawings each sheet. Actually eight because I used the back to save paper.

The tools are simple and there is nothing technical to stop your process. No interruptions. Pencil on paper.

>>2040905
Yes it does matter.

Nothing is more personal than a big pad of newsprint and a stick of charcoal. No software, no hardware, nothing in between. It's just you and the mediums as one. A tablet ain't got shit on paper. Photoshop ain't got shit on charcoal or graphite. Deal with it bitch.

It matters.
Do it on paper.

>>2040913
The thing is that when you think you've loosen up enough, you're only starting to do gesture.

Drawing happends between your eyes, mind and hand. We are too attached to the final product without realizing that this clinging to the result often hinders our progress in the way we process the information needed to draw. Gesture drawing is incredibly important and the point is really to make it automatic, out of your conscious control. That's why I chose such a small time frame to start.

>>2040907
Why?

>>2040922

So some unstoppable force is stopping you from doing gestures on a tablet because? Maybe it's just you.

>>2040926
Because I wouldn't be doing it otherwise?

>>2040925
forgot pic

>>2040934
And all of this took me an hour and there is an excuse for doing it non-stop, without procrastinating or anything.

I used this:
http://reference.sketchdaily.net/imageViewer
The minimum time is 30s, so I had to skip to the next when it hit the 20s mark (10s past).

>>2040938

>>2040942

>>2040948
And that's it.

>>2040928
Yes there is an unstoppable force, it's the presence of the machine. Or more precisely your dependency on it. It's just a middle man that you don't need. It's not as responsive or as intuitive as the real deal. And it never will be.

You'll never experience that mediative state that can happen in front of a big pad of newsprint. If you never actually experienced it in real life what makes you think you'll know when it happens through a machine. And don't fool yourself into believing it already has happened. Because once it happens on paper everything will click. And that hasn't happened yet or you wouldn't be here.

Stop fooling yourself. Get over your addiction. Do it on paper.

>>2040965
You sound like somebody who just had their "ah-ha" moment and now you're out trying to lecture people, sorry.

I know more about the subject than you seeing how I teach it.

>>2040970
I had my moment years ago. And you don't know shit kiddo. Stop fooling yourself. You're addicted to the machine and it's holding you back.

>>2040989
>And you don't know shit kiddo.
Sure thing, bud. I don't know where you get the idea that I don't draw on paper too but all I'm saying is there should be nothing hampering anyone from doing gestures on a tablet if they're accustomed to drawing digitally.

>>2040992
If a person is just starting out, there is problem with doing it digitally. The tablet is not another tool, it's a complex machine. Using it as a primary medium would be like learning to run before you can walk. It will definitely develop into learning disabilities in the future. You'll be missing out on the deep learning to make effective use of the machine. You can't feel on a machine like you can with a natural medium.

You're an addict and you'll forever suck because of it.

>>2041005
>it's a complex machine

Maybe for grandpa's with low IQs like you. Everything else is projecting your shortcomings on why you can't draw on the computer. Maybe try drawing more?

>>2041012
said the kid that even do a gesture drawing

>>2041024
get on my level scrub

>>2041012
said the kid that can't even do a gesture drawing

>>2041063
Um, I'm >>2040883 and the one you're talking to isn't me if that's what you were thinking.

>>2041067
neither of you two can gesture draw
both of you two should practice on paper

New thread?

When it comes to gesture drawing, for some reason when I draw out poses, the shoulders always come off as way to wide.

Anyone ever experience this? If so, how did you fix that?

>>2040673
iktf

>>2041179
I used to make the torsos way too long. What I did was stop always starting with the head, and start with the body more often.

>>2042068
there's a new thread, yo.
>>2041531