/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

The more skilled you are, the more errors you can see that the ordinary person can't pick up on. Since they see the issues, they genuinely feel it is bad.

Look up the Dunning-Kruger Effect.

>>1722127
I think artists are less likely than their audience to be satisfied with the final result of their efforts. They know where they struggled, and what areas are lacking. They might also be comparing the result to their initial concept or sketch and finding it has lost something. I know my sketches tend to have a fluidity that my finished paintings lack. They might also aim to match their heroes, and find their work comes short of Titian or Van Gogh, or even that it falls short of their own capabilities. "Good" is a very subjective term, and the artist, being specially critical of their own work, might just honestly feel their work isn't as impressive as other observers.

We believe would could be so much better and then it sort of snowballs into a cycle of paralyzing self-hatred.

You could feed me all the nice words and encouragement on earth and it wouldn't make the front and center YOU FUCKING SUCK YOU PEICE OF SHIT voice in my head any quieter.

I don't have insurance for professional help so I just kind of wallow around in the bottom of a rubble filled well until I get a little bit of strength to try to pick myself back up again.

I'm not that strong and I come undone sometimes and I really don't like talking about it with people because I feel like I don't deserve the compassion or attention, it makes me feel worse about everything.

That's how it is, at least for me.

>>1722127
So this may sound dumb but i personally conciously beat myself up so that i dont accept anything less. If i'm satisfied with my current work level it means i could be producing shit or stagnating. I understand that i'm probably better at drawing than 95% of all people who cant draw at all, but im still not at a level where i want to be.
Also its an ego thing, i don't want to have a huge boasting ego when the work im producing is just "alright"

>have a really good artist friend who knows she's good and always talks about their work positively
>be the complete opposite and tear myself apart so I usually feel shitty and pathetic how I complain about my work
>tfw now she says her own work is shitty in a joking manner and it pisses me off since it feels as if she's making fun of me

The artist saw the vision in his head of what he wanted to create, and the actual creation just isn't as good. That and you should never compare yourself as better than x artist or whatever, should always look up to heroes. When you look up to guys like Boogeroo and such it's easy to think of yourself as shit. Also in my experience artists who think their work is great tend to be simply oblivious to how shit it is, or they're just pushing their ego thing as hard as they can to make people think they're good *cough*Noah*cough*.

I'm scared that someday I could be completely happy with the work I do, because that'd be the day that I'm not good enough to see my mistakes.

>>1722127
I would say there are several reasons, some of which have already been mentioned.

1. Fake humility. It's quite common among artists and people who do some kind of performance. People who brag look like assholes, so it's always good to act humble, as people will judge you as a person as much as they judge your art or performance.

2. The Dunning-Kruger effect as mentioned above. Basically, unskilled or stupid people often think they are far better than they are, while intelligent or skilled people recognize their own mistakes and other people's skill, but aren't very good at appreciating their good points.
Highly intelligent or talented people often believe that they're not particularly intelligent or talented, but that everyone is like them. That's why you see so many talented people say there's no such thing as talent. I mean, it's so many kinds of stupid to think that Feynman, a nobel prize winning genius, actually said that anyone could be a theoretical physicist, and that he wasn't anything special. I'm an engineer, and fuck me if I didn't see half my class fail or drop out because they couldn't keep up, despite putting in five times the effort I did. I happen to be good at math, and breezed through it with very low attendence. If only I could say the same about drawing, but I digress.

3. This ties in with the one above, but the people who are content or overrate their own accomplishments, aren't going to try to improve or work as hard, because they think they're more than good enough. The guy who draws CAD is a prime example.

Self-deprecating people will work hard to improve, because they're never content with their art. They likely overestimate the skill of others, and always compare themselves negatively to their peers.

>>1722127
Personally I hate people complimenting me because to me it means they have low standards. Okay, I'm above average, but the least I want to get to is Algenpfleger level and I can't even pick nice skin colours atm.

>>1722162

you know there's fuckloads of guides on the internet on skintones

>>1722165
You clearly have no concept of colour relativity.

Semi-related: How can you tell the difference between a person giving a genuine compliment as opposed to someone giving a polite response? I'm always very paranoid about compliments to my work because I always just assume they're being polite because of how bad it is. I actually like harsh critiques more than compliments because at least then you know they're being sincere.

>>1722187
This.

Maybe it's because my parents were such hardasses, but I don't trust people who compliment me. I want to hear you tell me all the things I did wrong.

>>1722187
I'm not saying this as an insult, but you're not an Aspie, are you? Unless it's your mother or someone close to you, it's not hard to tell if someone likes something or not. It doesn't matter if it's online or in person, the level of enthusiam will always be a dead giveaway.

>>1722191
but how can you really tell online you faggot?

a like button?
a "cool"
a "nice"

what the actual fuck you both are asprenburgers for sure.

>>1722187
Does it actually matter?
Just take it as a positive and go with it.

>>1722192
Are you genuinely this retarded?
You don't see the difference between "Hey, cool.", "That's nice", "Not bad" and "OMG GIVE ME YOUR TUMBLR" "Holy shit!" and so on?
Don't you know shit about context? Hell, if you're so autistic you need numbers, just post your shit on a site that lets you count views and favs.
Christ.

>>1722127

The further up you climb the bigger the mountain gets. You start to chase subtleties and nuances that are the distilled results of a master's experience that you would have brushed off as ordinary a year or two ago.

>>1722132
Never stop believing you could be so much better, but how else will you get there if you don't start by not being good at it? It's riding the fine line between not being satisfied with your work and not being satisfied with yourself. You're not your work, you're the reason why your work will be worth it one day.

>>1722165
>>1722170
Might as well just post the color wheel.

>>1722187
Does it truly matter? I suppose in a manner of self-critique, just see how it sits with you.

>go to art school
>holy shit everyone's so much better than me
>I get A's over other students who are far more technically superior
>I so very much hate my own work because of the knowledge that there's someone better, and someone better within 15ft of me
>Because I "do the work and show the most development"

Like, this makes sense in the academic world, but I feel like if I'm gonna be working in a studio they'll take the technically more superior person.

>>1722145
it sounds like she wants the D

>>1722127
>Why do many artists have such low self-confidence?
because it's the internets.
When nobody cares about you no matter how you try while you see another artist sitting next to you and getting all kinds of stuff and comissions from everybody despite his/her quality it's impossible to go without being jealous and depressive
Hell...im trying to draw a picture now but can't. What's the point. im a shitt artist. because Tumblr/Deviantart says so.

And don't even START with "who cares about tumbr or da". Because there are no other places of social network-galleries for internet artists

>>1722187
Tone of voice.
Of course you'd have to be autistic, not to pick up on it

>>1722208

Everyone appreciates a Rudy

Rudy might not have been the biggest or best but he worked his ass off and never gave up. That's what your instructors see in you.

>>1722127
A lot of artists equate their ability with their own self, if they perceive themselves as a lousy artist then they perceive themselves as a lousy person.

>>1722127
attention whores, those people will neversje it big, being humble all the time is hypocritical and really not that reasonable. Arrogance or whatever you call it is something that boosts your self esteem/confidence allowing you to do more things.

Sometimes you have to stop saying I'm not good and start saying "this is good gotta keep going up".

People always saying they are bad will just never make it big, like Noah for example, wether you like his art or not, personality also plays a role in it

>>1722127
they're being modest. it's one of those hue man things.

i actually don't do that, i like to say what i like and stuff and get a little conversation going especially with abstract stuff. it can be quite hard for people to articulate what they like or dislike about something like that but i want that precious everyman feedback.

>>1722127
>refuse to admit they are "good" = low self confidence

Sorry OP you're confused. Are you an artist? Do you know what makes good art?

Artists who are aware of the flaws in their work are not the same as artists who have low self-confidence. I can tell you all about my work, I can tell you what's good and what's bad about it. Having some one tell me they like my work usually just gets a thank you. Compliments are nice, but I don't really care about them in the same way I would care about helpful and useful critique. Compliments aren't going to make me a better artist. If someone wants to have an actual discussion about what I've done then we can talk about what is good and bad about my art. Any artist who is not willing to admit the flaws in their art is an artist who is either trying to sell you something or an arrogant piece of shit that is about to stop progressing as an artist.

Why do you equate someone who is humble about their skill level as someone who has low self confidence?

Also I'd love to see some of this mind blowing art you are sure is amazing and that only a super low confidence person could possibly say that it has flaws.

I have a friend who is pretty amazing because she has been working on her art since a very young age.

I know my skill right now is pretty low since I never bothered in learning the fundamentals until recently

and while I'd love to show her all my drawings I know she will say they look good to avoid hurting my feelings which is pretty discouraging to me since I know we are in totally different levels.

I'd like to share my development with her but at the same time I don't want to receive those compliments that hold no meaning

I'm currently working hard to get closer to her level so I can feel better about my art.

>>1722132
I really feel that way since I really want to be good at drawing and love creating things but that voice that just says " YOU FUCKED UP AGAIN! HOW CAN YOU NOT EVEN DRAW A CIRCLE WELL?!" is just too loud to the point where I want to pursue art as a career but I feel like my skills have not progressed beyond notebook doodles.

>>1722311
> I know she will say they look good to avoid hurting my feelings
If you know this person and they are actually your friend you could always ask them for actual critique and explain your reasoning. If they still deflect and give you useless compliments perhaps you should stop idolizing them so much,

How do you guys escape from the cycle of self-hatred. For me it's gotten so bag that have trouble even making a mark before I want to erase it or tearing the page apart.

>>1722327
realize that stage one to becoming good at anything is to be shitty at it. don't strive for perfection, strive to get better. realize you're going to make shitty art and hit plateaus but the key is to be conscious of your mistakes and actively try to fix them. noticeable progress is not as important as regular practice and mindful efforts to conquer your problems.

>>1722323
Thanks for the advice.

I'll ask her for proper critique next time. I hope I can get some useful insight.

I never say how bad my art is when someone else says its good, it seems to depress them or make them feel dumb,

so I just say "yeah i'm getting better" seems to be a nice medium reaction.

Probably better to be self-deprecating than to be arrogant and full of yourself.

It's not low confidence, it's just honesty. A person who cannot admit their flaws will never improve.

>>1722327
You don't have to like your art. My art is fucking awfull. Love the process. Your art is not you. I strive for a good looking piece, yes, but if it fails, I don't care. It's the problem of the canvas now, not mine.

And then I draw something that amazes me. I don't care. It's problem of the canvas holding the drawing now. I can put it out there or I can burn it. I don't care about the result, I care about how I'm getting there.

What I also advise is, is to just stop with the thing you're doing now. You might be doing digital painting of human figures like many here. Just stop that and get another thing. How about some clay sculpting of animals, doing some architecture in a 3D program, calligraphy or sketching mechs with ink.

Ink is also nice to work with, makes you unable to erase your shit.

>>1722157
Talent is just a product of intelligence and hard work. I'm doing exceptionally well in my studies too, and with less apparent effort than my classmates, but the reality is that I have some modest intellectual gifts coupled with a real love for the material that results in me studying it basically every waking moment.

>>1722208
I don't know, I remember in my first sketching class being really intimidated by a classmate next to me because she had really impressive line quality and hyper accurate front view figures... but as soon as we started rotating and posing figures, it turned out that she just had no idea of what to do while I was pretty expressive. You might not have the full perspective that your instructor does.

>>1722219
>StormArtists, ConceptArt, formerly CGHub etc

>>1722157
>I mean, it's so many kinds of stupid to think that Feynman, a nobel prize winning genius, actually said that anyone could be a theoretical physicist, and that he wasn't anything special. I'm an engineer, and fuck me if I didn't see half my class fail or drop out because they couldn't keep up, despite putting in five times the effort I did. I happen to be good at math, and breezed through it with very low attendence. If only I could say the same about drawing, but I digress.
That's probably because his IQ wasn't as crazy high as his compatriots and yet he still managed significant contributions.

>>1722333
>>1722514
not the same anon but going through the same thing as them and this is really helping me out thanks

>>1722625
i know a lot of talented musicians, who also happen to be studying physics.

they have a talent for numbers or something which helps them do both those things.

they aren't smarter than the architects i happen to know who almost always have a talent for metaphysics. i suppose there must be some talent for understand abstract ideas.

talent isn't a product of intelligence, it's the other way around. if you're in the right line of work and you work hard you'll always do better than being in a line of work you ain't suited to even if you work hard.

>>1722625
Talent exists. This isn't really debatable.
Talent is simply a natural skill some people have, that allow them to be better in certain fields. At some point in the future it will likely be possible to pinpoint what talents a person has by analyzing their genetic makeup, and they can already do this to some extent today.

Intelligence can naturally contribute to many skills, and can be considered a talent itself. Of course, hard work is the most important factor.

>be an art student
>slowly feel like your artistic ability is changing
>slowly feel the influence of cartoons/anime start to creep in
>can't stop it
>no one notices but you and everyone says it's great

i need to spend the summer rebuilding my skills from the basics

I always wonder why some people insist so much that "talent" doesn't exist.

>>1723056
Because many of them know first hand what it takes to become good at their craft. There are those that are born with the ability to grasp and apply concepts faster and better than others but the learning process is still the same.

>>1723056
2 kinds of people

1.people who see someone do something more easily than them and console themselves with 'pfft he just had a head-start, when i catch up i'll destroy him. i'll work so hard!' ~opens 4chan, starts an 'art schools are useless incidentally i can't afford to go to one' thread~

2.people who are selling something and want people to know they put a lot of effort into it because people are more likely to buy something if they think it was hard to make. it also encourages people with no talent and no hope to shell out some $$$ for some equipment and a how-to book, because maybe they can make it to!

so tl;dr capitalism and self deception.

>>1723040
Makes me wish someone would've encouraged me to do art from the beginning. All they ever tell is what careers make the most money, not encouraging kids to do what makes them happy. Now I'm working a 9-5 that I hate.

>>1723056
Because it doesn't.

>>1723056
Some people are just complete retards, I guess. I'd compare it to not believing in evolution.

>>1723093
>"talent" which as of yet has no scientific basis is as concrete a theory as "evolution"

Unless you are somehow confused and think talent is interchangeable with autistic savants, I have no idea where you're getting your information from.

>cue arguing
>this thread is the new troll thread.
>gogogogo

>>1723095
Talent is just a word for a person's abilities. It's a scientific fact that genes affect what advantages and disadvantages we have. It's a fact that some people can sing very well with little training, while others are tone deaf. It's a fact that some people can learn math with little effort, while others can't, regardless of the effort.
It's a fact that people aren't identical clones with equal potential.

I honestly can't fathom how retarded a person is to believe that every person is a blank slate with the exact same potential. It's absolute insanity.

What you're saying is that every person could achieve what Einstein did, or that ever person can potentially sing, dance and create music like Michael Jackson could.

>>1723095
autist

>>1723103
"talent" = abilities

show me the genetic basis for being good at math. show me the genetic basis for being able to sing well. show me the genetic basis for anything other than physical athleticism and you'll be on your way to getting a nobel prize in biology.

what I'm saying is that your argument that everything comes down to genes is a joke.

>can't fathom how retarded a person is to believe that every person is a blank slate with the exact same potential
never said that, i said there's no scientific evidence that there are genes for this "talent" of which you speak.

I loathe the word "talent". It's a subtle and annoying way to toss out the hard hours I've put into my craft and the stress of always striving to be better. The people who use the word usually never have that intention, but it stings just the same.

>>1723108
You've actually got me stumped. I'm literally strugging to find words, because what you're saying is just complete insanity.

Talent is defined as an innate ability, something that gives you an advantage in some field.
If you're saying you don't believe talent exists, you're saying that every single person on earth is an exact genetic clone, and that a person is only affected by its surroundings growing up.

>>1723117
No, it's not. It's simply saying that some people have a natural gift, and learn faster than others.

>>1723121
Not. OP,

but I'd say the only talent that exists is singing ability. Everything else can be learned

>>1723121
what i'm saying is i don't know and i've yet to see any concrete evidence that your genes affect your talent for such things as being good at art / music / math

if it's such a well known fact and we've fully catalogued the entire human genome how come we can't tell who's talented and who isn't with a simple test of their genome?

i suppose you're a strong proponent for eugenics as well?

>>1723134
Just because we've got the entire genome mapped doesn't mean we know what each gene does. It's also not about individual genes, but how they work together. There are likely a myriad of different genetic combinations that can provide a person with a large variety of abilities that allow them to draw well.

Also yes, I'm a very strong proponent of eugenics. It's made a huge comback in recent years, as people have been afraid to touch it because of its unscientific use by the Germans and everything associated with it. In fact, it's openly practised as people are allowed to screen for birth defects or Down's syndrome.

>>1723133
That isn't what's being discussed. It's not whether you can learn something or not, it's how well you learn, how fast you learn and how good you can get. The vast majority of people can become good at most things with enough practise, but again that's not the topic at hand.

>>1723124

Natural gift my ass. Some people figure out what they want to do sooner and start doing it seriously.

The problem I notice is that most people don't take an analytical and theory/research based approach to art. They mostly just float along in art class without pushing themselves outside class. That's where the difference lies, not in genes. It's a difference in how bad they want it and what they're willing to sacrifice.

>>1723146
precisely

>>1723146
So you believe every person learns at the same rate?

Fuck man, that's just... wow...

>>1723141
Fine, seems reasonable enough, if you find proof of genetic basis for these cerebral talents i'd love to see it.

On another topic I'm curious as to how you'd explain savant syndrome as normal everyday people can suffer some trauma and suddenly develop what is essentially "talent" given your definition. Why do these normal people who were talentless, suddenly have talent due to brain trauma? Did they have the genes all along and their talent was somehow hidden? Is "talent" more than just genes?

pulled from research papers

"By far, the most compelling argument for savant skills residing equally within everyone is that they can emerge ‘suddenly and spontaneously’ (Miller et al. 2000, p. 86) in individuals who had no prior history for them, either in interest, ability or talent (Treffert 2006; Sacks 2007, pp. 157 and 313). Striking examples include skills in art, music (Sacks 2007), mathematics (Treffert 2006, p. 85), calendar calculating (LaFay 1987; Osborne 2003) and possibly AP (Zatorre 1989, see p. 573)."

>>1722132
This is the exact way I feel. I just bash myself so hard every time I pick up the pen I barely even do anymore. Even though I draw daily I aim lower and lower so I won't fail because I'm afraid of failure. The reason I'm afraid of failure is because it will make the next time of picking up the pen even harder and I don't want that to happen

It's an endless cycle and the praise I get from my non-artist friends feels just empty as I know I want to do better

>>1723151
"There are now several accounts of artificially induced savant-like skills, in drawing, proofreading, numerosity and false memory reduction, all by inhibiting the LATL with repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation (rTMS; Snyder et al. 2003, 2006; Young et al. 2004; Gallate et al. 2009)."

"There are now several accounts of artificially induced savant-like skills, in drawing, proofreading, numerosity and false memory reduction, all by inhibiting the LATL with repetitive transcranial magnetic stimulation (rTMS; Snyder et al. 2003, 2006; Young et al. 2004; Gallate et al. 2009)."

>>1723153
whoops second quote was meant to be:

Snyder et al. (2003) directed low-frequency rTMS for 15min over the LATL of 11, right-handed, healthy participants. The participants were given 1min to draw a dog, horse or face from memory, before, during, immediately after and 45min after rTMS treatment.

Magnetic stimulation caused a major change in the schema of the drawings of 4 out of 11 participants. Two of these also underwent sham (inactive) stimulation either the week before or after the real test. The changes in drawing style were observed only following active stimulation and not after sham stimulation. In some cases, the drawings returned to ‘normal’ 45min after rTMS ceased. Young et al. (2004) also reported rTMS-enhanced drawing skills.

Several participants reported greater awareness of detail in their surrounds after active rTMS. One participant published his experience, stating that he ‘could hardly recognize the drawings as his own even though he had watched himself render each image’. (Osborne 2003, p. 38).

>>1723151
If you remove the filter that normal people have, either through disease or physical damage, the person's perception of the world around him will change. He will see differently. Depending on many circumstances, this might give him the ability to draw well.

Anyway, this is getting tiresome. I found an article that explains how talent and genetics are tied together here if you're actually interested in this: http://blog.twedt.com/archives/1236

>>1723159
Cool thanks, meanwhile everything I'm finding seems to point to the fact that "talent" is just low level autism....

>>1723160
>"talent" is just low level autism.

Googling a word you don't fully understand before posting is essential when trying not to look like a fucking retard online.

>>1723149

More or less, yep. There are of course outliers, but I would not for one second assume myself one of them.

>>1723165
Interesting rebuttal anon, your point is so clear and airtight. autism is generally accepted as a removal of the filter that separates low level brain processes from the conscious mind. "Talented" individuals are often able to access these same low level processes. How's that different from autism?

Why not try to actually make something coherent instead of just throwing shit? It's because you're lazy isn't it?

>>1723152
Accept and embrace a failed piece. Each piece that sucks is another step closer to a good one. Stop aiming lower and lower though anon. Better thing to do would be focus on some small aspect and do it as well as it can be done. Like my illustrations sucked but instead of simplifying them down a bunch or avoiding hard things, I went and studied composition/values. Worked on tiny composition thumbs for a month, obsessing over them, and did them as well as I possibly could. Then applying that to illustrations makes them better.

Basically a fantastic painting of a single figure is better than a painting of hundreds of poorly drawn ones. Focus on an aspect of your work and do it as well as it can be done.

Talent gets shouted down here and in artistic communities a lot because of how people dismiss skill as talent. It offends most artists when someone says that they were just born with their abilities, when the reality is that they slaved away to train them, and calling them talent dismisses all that work.

Talent in terms of a natural aptitude for different subjects or aspects or art is of course real though. People's minds work in different ways, some just have a way with numbers, or languages or whatever. The same is true within different aspects of art. I used to work next to a girl in lifedrawing who could do incredibly things with colour, could make the skin seem transparent and living and such where mine would be muddy or just flat colour. When it came to working with just strong line and quick shadows though, it came much easier to me than it did to her.

There's also personal experiences, preferences of what they like or subconsciously observe more, different circumstances, whatever. This isn't a level playing field and never will be. If you work hard, you'll get better. People just don't like their hard work being dismissed as talent, a gift given to them by god or something they were born with.

i used to do this until i realized that i was doing it and it made people uncomfortable

I still think it whenever people compliment shit that i make but i try my best to be accepting and encouraging of comments like that for the benefit of the commentor

>>1723171
Not that guy, but you're talking about two different things. Just because brain damage or autism might give a person access to certain abilities at the cost of others, doesn't mean that's how every form of innate ability or potential is derived.

More or less all people have some form of talent. It's not a binary concept where you either have or don't have talent. My guess, without having any concrete evidence to back it up, is that the distribution of talent follows a bell curve in the same way IQ does. Most people are clustered around an average, while you'll find fewer and fewer people the further you go towards either extreme.

>>1723239
I have some talents, and I have no problems admitting this or feeling proud of these talents, even if I didn't work to get them.
As I think I mentioned earlier, I'm good at math. I'm not implying that I'm a genius, but I was a straight A student in math and physics, despite disliking both subject, dodging as many classes as I could and only doing the absolute minimum requirements as far as assignments and homework went.

When I started my engineering degree, I had to apply myself more, but I still spent a fraction of the time studying compared to most other people in my class, and did far better.

In subjects that actually required me to study and memorize things, I performed just above average, because I was somewhat lazy and inattentive.

>>1723273

But could it not be the case that some of the people who were average in your class had other talents and perhaps weren't in the right place for them?

>>1723235
Focusing on a single thing is overwhelming as I need to improve with everything. I try to study values so I do a single 3 hour value study. It's not perfect but it's pretty good and I know what needs to be changed to make it better. The issue is that it doesn't translate to a good personal work with good values because I'm lacking in a gazillion different sub-areas. I have tried doing composition thumbnails but after a few dozen I just ran out of creative juices with them, and I never knew how to make anything of them. I feel like I need a strict guide how to become pro at something so I have something I can follow instead of just wandering around doing a bit of this and a bit of that as it doesn't really help with anything

I do want to do big ambitious things but I've beaten myself so deep into this pit I don't think I even want to try anymore. I start something big and ambitious every once in a while, just to stop after a vague sketch because I notice that the plan just doesn't hold water and there's no way I can finish it as I lack the skills to do the different bits of it

I really don't know how to progress anymore. I've been drawing just something for the past 8 months, usually once a day but my record has been getting more and more spotty over the last few months as I haven't done any noticeable progress over this time and I still can't do a personal piece of any description

>>1723275
Yes, but what does that have to do with anything?
I didn't say I was good at everything, I said I was good at math.

My guess is that the vast majority of talent is wasted. Imagine all the talent that goes to waste in the Chinese rice paddies, where hundreds of millions of people never have the opportunity to discover their talents?

>>1723302

>My guess is that the vast majority of talent is wasted.

That was my point, I should have simply stated it. My apologies. Most people probably have something that they do very well at, but for whatever reason don't end up doing that thing.

I wonder if there is some link between mental issues and art.

I remember that when I started college I loved the shit out of my career (CS) tinkering around with code, networks, modification of devices seemed like a good "dead-end". I thought I was going to be a "normal-fag" and technology was my passion.

Some years later I'm at wits end with depression and other issues but fortunately I found art and I love the shit out of it, it's almost therapeutic for me.

Now I have some other problems based on this discovery that namely I no longer like my career or my job and the fact that both suck almost all my available time but at least art makes life worth living.

Anyway this isn't only based on the anecdotal observation of my own life, most of my favourite writers and painters lived troubled lives and you can even kind of see it in their work.

I wonder if there is some link between mental issues and art.

I remember that when I started college I loved the shit out of my career (CS) tinkering around with code, networks, modification of devices seemed like a good "dead-end". I thought I was going to be a "normal-fag" and technology was definitely my life passion.

Some years later I'm at wits end with depression and other issues but fortunately I found languages, literature then art and I love the shit out of them, they are almost the most efficient therapeutic treatment to my crippling depression.

Now I have some other problems based on this discovery that namely I no longer like (almost despise) my career and my job, there is also the fact that both suck almost all my available time and energy but at least the possibility to follow these pursuits even if it is just a little day per day makes life worth living.

Anyway this isn't only based on the anecdotal observation of my own life, most of my favourite writers and painters lived troubled lives and you can even kind of see it in their work.

There is also this episode of Radiolab where they talk about Ravel's bolero and try to find a link between sudden artistic inclinations and metal illness.

>>1723407
>that picture
Such a crock of shit. Not everyone can be a painter as a career.

>>1723407
i love alan watts, it's so annoying that he was an abusive alcoholic who was terrible to all his children and constantly worried about money troubles.

>>1723407
I like Alan Watts as much as the next guy, but that comic is just so ugly and it really ruins the feeling you get from listening to him speak.

>>1723286
Exactly how I feel.
I want to make graphic novels, I think up stories and characters all the time but my poor drawing skills makes me fee like I'll never make them they way I see it in my head. I struggle with understanding color and can composition, it feels very discouraging

You guys should google perfectionism and what it does to you.

Quantity over quality, when you're practicing. And when you're doing an actual piece, the skill should come naturally.

>>1723422
Get rich or die trying, nigguh. You wanna be a fucking accountant? work for a company and wonder if all day? Id rather rack paint and live in a fucking shed or worse.

>>1722219

Then stop comparing yourself to others. And stop taking criticism from unqualified people.

They hate your shit? Fuck it, you'll improve. And then all your following works will be better. It's you and your progress that matters right now.

>>1723286
Mhm. Well I'm not happy with my work either and doubt I ever will be, but I just keep working at it. Simplifying things down a lot is working for me at the moment though, doing simple paintings and slowly working my way up to more complex ones. I'm really into the Mullins/JJ/etc way of painting, but I can't just jump in and do a piece like that, so I've been doing studies and little doodles in that technique and slowly getting more adventurous. I also like studying artists who do it well but keep it very simple, like this dude, Tahir Tanis. That's just a guy standing in the street, but he's focused on the colours and lighting and such and made it interesting.

My point was to relax a bit and try get good at simpler things before you slowly increase the complexity. That's a better thing to do than lowering your targets. We're all lacking in areas, every single one of us. I know a bunch of pros who started with focusing on one aspect and getting really damn good at it, and now they're expanding out to other things one by one. Don't worry about progressing so much anon, it's not something you can see easily. Just keep working, and you'll slowly get better.

>>1723961
I like Tahir, but that piece is such an obvious Jaime ripoff that I can't enjoy it.

>>1723963
That's why I chose it, it's that style of painting but simplified down a bunch since he's not at that same level. I've done enough JJ studies to know that his stuff might look simple but it's actually complicated as fuck, where that Tahir one is pretty loose and simple aside from the character.

>>1723961
I've managed to pick myself up a little thanks to this thread but how the fuck do you do a painting like that? Or a study of a painting like that? I really can't into brushes so many of the subtle effects will always be missing and creating a rough edge with a hard round brush is just silly. Do people do heavy construction when they paint like that? Do they have sketch layers? Do they work in greyscale? I've always relied heavily on sketching and when the moment comes that I'm supposed to paint over my sketch layer it just all goes to shit. How do people paint this stuff? Is there a strict 'right way' or is it just a set of basic guidelines or something? The way I'm doing studies of other peoples work is so so different from how they originally were made so it kinda beats the purpose, it's sorta easier to follow the original artist's workflow with studies of traditional paintings but not having the same tools makes it sometimes even harder to follow in digital

I've seen countless step-by-step tutorials but I haven't found one that seemed general enough for me to implement into my workflow. It's always some very specific lineart or certain brush/tool phase or something that I can't quite follow. I have watched ctrpaint digital painting tutorials but doing everything with huge soft brushes really wasn't my thing as I don't have clear enough of a picture in my head to begin with and I need to render more slowly

>>1724079
For stuff like that you typically don't use any lines, or use pretty loose lines. You need to learn to think with shape. Try copying some of the paintings you like only using large brushes.

>>1722127

If you think you don't have anything (or much, at least) to improve on, you stagnate. I know I have a lot to work on. Currently, I'm working on dynamic poses, lighting and coloring using photo shop (I draw by hand and scan). I always minimize my work because I know I can (and will) do better. Minimizing my achievements makes me more motivated to practice.

>>1724079
It's all about the shape design, brushes aren't as important as you think. For some of those paintings he makes sure the shapes are all perfect before laying over some texture and making things pretty. Jaime does have a couple of steps for paintings, I'm making them into .gifs if you give me a minute.

>>1722127
I don't know what it is with this pic but i feel like this is one of the best looking artworks i have ever seen. it's so simple and stylish, yet you can easily see how much knowledge and skill the artist put into it. it's beautifully colored aswell. god, i love it.

>>1724137
It's kind of Moebius meets Hokusai.

>>1724134

>>1724134
>>1724144

>>1724141
well said.

>>1724144
>>1724147
>>1724134
>>1724102
I'm sorry but all I see is 'draw rest of the fucking owl' and a lot of texture brushes. Anything more suitable for someone who's not very savvy with the hard round brush yet? I use lines to realize the scene in my head, I'm completely clueless without them, it's all very sketchy and not supposed to be lineart. How big of a brush should I be using? like 10% of the total height? 20%? 30%?

>>1724144
Forgot to make the second one loop forever, my bad.

>>1724161
Third one I'm doing has some steps, and the 4th one I'm making is steps from his blog, with notes: http://www.artpad.org/blog/2012/7/10/process.html Sorry it's not more helpful, but I'll post up the last two for anyone who's interested.

>>1724161
This stuff is pretty advanced. That's why I suggested doing a study of something, and trying the technique of using no lines and only working with shapes. But if your fundamentals and observation is weak even that might be too hard for you. Learn to draw and observe, then learn to paint like that.

Work big to small, general to specific. When using a brush, think of the largest brush you would be comfortable using for a section, and then use a brush that is one size bigger.

>>1724144
>>1724166

This one has some basic explanation to it.

>>1724168
I think I'm decent at doing studies at least and I got a lot more art knowledge in my head than what I can actualize, especially in personal works. Those turn out garbage every single time and that's the main reason I've been beating myself up a lot. And I've noticed that the use of lines saves up A LOT of time in the long run as I don't have to fix every single angle and proportion later, I'm not just quite sure how to paint over the sketch while keeping things in place

>>1724166
I usually work with just greyscale before adding color as it's much easier to keep values in check that way and worry about color temperature later. Not that I've ever gotten to rendering or color temperature in my own works but in theory at least. Thanks for the .gifs anyways

>At this point I'm starting to describe materials (trees, snow) and creating a varied surface. I'm changing my brush often to avoid a "samey" appearance. In choosing colors I'm thinking first about value and second about temperature.
How to do this kinda stuff without brushes? Is it just meticulous rendering? I really don't know how to make a blob look like pine branches with the hard round brush by doing crisscross strokes. Do I just leave it as a blob and hope it fixes itself somehow? Not talking about the big brush study, just in general if I want to work on a personal piece on the side while practicing

>>1724171
That "establish foreground" part is what I need to work on. Thanks a lot anon, this workflow seems similar enough to my own to draw at least something from. Helps significantly when you can pinpoint something like that you need to work on

>>1724144
>>1724166
>>1724171

Basic idea is to get good shape design in first and make sure they contrast nicely. That means contrasting lighting, colour, edges, whatever. Mullins has a good talk about contrast in design in his old Gnomon dvd.

>>1724184
Nothing wrong with using plenty of brushes to change things up and get different textures, you can render things out with just the hard round but it'll take longer. In general though just get in a suggestive shape of what it is and the eye should recognize it. Softer and more blended shapes for snow vs hard, irregular ones for rock and so on.

>>1724171
Could you post the tiled version?

>>1724186
No problem. These steps have been around for ages, but I find them more helpful in .gif form, and they were pretty quick to make. Aside from JJ changing his canvas size all the time, that drives my OCD crazy trying to line shit up. I also have an Eytan Zana one and some steps by Sprias if anyone's interested. I'll post them and then I'm done.

>>1724191
Sure, here.

>>1724193
Thanks

>>1724193
Here's the Eytan Zana steps. Now convinced he's an evil bastard since on 5th step the image grows by like 2 pixels, impossible to get rid of that slight jitter. Next one is by Sprias.

>>1724199
And the Sprias ones. Hope some of you found these useful.

>>1724207
Not sure why you are including this with Jaime and Eytan. It's nowhere near the same level at all.

>>1724210
I know it's not the same level, but it's the same ideas behind the workflow. Thought it might make it feel more achievable, encourage people to try it themselves yknow.

>>1724187
>Nothing wrong with using plenty of brushes to change things up and get different textures
Nothing wrong indeed. I think it might be a case of me not being so keen into the kinda style jj and sprias etc. are going for. I love more flat and simplified surfaces and textures without much rendering or brushing, I just gotta find other ways to approach the rendering to make it look neat. Thanks a lot anon, definitely helpful gifs

>>1724214
I see where you're coming from yeah. Zedig does pretty well with his simple surfaces though he does use a bunch of custom brushes to do it. Glad you found the gifs useful, if you guys follow my tumblr I'll be making more progress gifs in the next few days. I have steps by YuDehong and all sorts of people saved, but don't want to derail any more threads. http://choob.tumblr.com/

>>1724219

Why not create your own thread posting the gifs you make then? People can request them and probably provide some stuff you may have missed.

>>1724171
>>1724187
>>1724199
>>1724207
>>1724193
these are wonderful. if anyone has any more step-by-steps or awesome gifs like these hanging around, please post them, i would love to see.

>>1724223
here >>1724221
or yeah, someone, anyone, could make a new topic for them. it would probably be my favorite topic of the year to see

>>1724221
>>1724223
>>1724224

I have deadlines to hit the next couple of days so I can't right now, but sure, I can make a topic for process gifs at the weekend and people can make requests and such, nice idea.

>>1724219
Something like a zedig or ruan jia's less refined areas yeah, lost of sharp edges and not too many smooth gradients

Thanks for helping me rekindle some of the spirit I went into this with years ago. Maybe I post more than 10 pieces to my dA/tumblr this year

>>1724225
If you do, I'll post some of mine that I made.

>>1724225
yesss
thanks very much!
(also, just from me, if there were really nice step-by steps not in gif form, those would be awesome too to post along with, if there aren't too many gifs out there but still a host of untapped step-by-steps by some really great artists)
thanks anon!

>>1724229
>>1724230
here. please do!

>>1722127
Well, other than my own work, I want that "I can do better" voice in my head so I can continue to get better, instead of becoming some pompous whore.

>>1722127
There is this idea that those with talent, skill, training, and/or ability have to be as humble as possible or they are arrogant assholes.

But then people complain when they are humble as well saying that they are assholes with low self esteem.

>>1722132
You need to separate yourself from your work, man. You are not your work, and your work is not you.

>>1724207
>>1724211

Dat shameless self-advertising.

>>1724356
There's a difference between being humble and having no self esteem.

>>1724372
Not to most people apparently.

i like to think that, to me, i am realistic and practical in the way i see my art. my art is just my art. there are always things to be improved, there are always things to work on, ways i could have made it better. but not in a negative my-work-is-shit way. instead i see it as a sort of process with no distinct beginning or end. my improvement at any stage is not important in that particular instant, because given enough time i'll have touched on a whole variety of skill levels. there is always someone better and always someone worse. with a eye towards constant improvement, and constantly immersing in better art than mine, i can see my problem areas very clearly and appreciate them. whereas anyone not up to my level would not understand if i felt my art is wanting and think i was 'humble' or had 'no self-esteem,' it's not like that at all. people better than me would also see my errors most likely. i don't care what my overall 'skill-lvl of the moment' is. i just care to always keep in mind my tough spots so i know what to improve for future. not negatively, but constructively. my viewpoint to myself doesn't matter though when it comes to the feedback i've gotten because i guess everyone i've known thinks i have little to no self esteem when it comes to my art which isn't really it at all but hey i'm not going to bore people with the whole philosophy every time they compliment and i say 'thanks but it's actually.' truthfully for years now i've just said as little as possible. just a 'thanks,' because that's all they were really listening for in the first place

>>1724389
Are your Shift keys broken, or something?

>>1724390
Just personally prefer no caps, (it feels less formal) but have no problem accommodating if it's bothersome.

>>1724393
You do realize that it is harder to read without capitalization, and that it comes off as ignorant. Might wanna use that shift key more.

>>1724395
you do realise that that's fucking ridiculous and only faggots of the highest order make an issue out of it..

or that might be a bit hard for you to read aparently

You Are A Fag.

>>1724395
I am sorry it's harder to read, anon. About the reader's impression, I don't mind. I'd rather enjoy all of your posts in a spur-of-the-moment friendly manner than mess with conventions which would come unnaturally to me in what feels an informal chat-environment. But if I hear from others too that it's troublesome I'll give the key a poke or two. Thanks for letting me know.

>>1722625
Any can be skilled at pretty much anything. Talent exists though. Being talented at something just means you have a higher starting point, in regards to your skill.

>>1724402
If you want others to go through the trouble of reading your long posts you should probably spend some effort into making them not awfully rambly or poorly formatted. I'm not the biggest grammar nazi especially when it comes to small posts but it's really hard to follow your track of thought when you use commas and colons completely randomly with no caps in between

>>1722127
Basically you're way worse than them so you think they're good. Studying art yourself is eye opening. When you don't know shit you can be blown away by fucking garbage, but once you start working on your skills you see how you place on this whole art skill spectrum. You see people being way better than you and others being shit, and you become awfully aware of your shortcomings.
If an artist tells you he's bad then you fucking leave that nigger with that feeling. The most damaging think you can do to him and his career is stroke his ego.

>>1724473

nonono. you tell him he is absolute garbage. not "just bad" what do you think this is?? a motherfucking game?

ART IS WAR

>>1724475
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwJheWwW7rw

>>1724360
Nigguh I'm not Sprias, I even posted a link to my blog and my name's Choob. If you're gonna call me out on self-advertising, at least get the right person.

>>1724358
All of my this.

when you have good taste, acknowleging talent becomes more challenging

>>1722327
Honestly for me, weed. Or, if you're not into that try psychedelics a few times with someone experienced to guide you and all your cares and negativity will wash away and you can look at yourself and your work from a different perspective, and you'll realize that you can choose how to see situations, and not act on initial impulses (such as the impulse of self condemnation).

>>1726304
This.
Sometimes I look at the work of my idols and I feel like I'll never be up to par.

It's because you don't know what good art is. You're too easily impressed. An artist can tell every flaw in his own pieces, but outsiders just see the surface. The more you draw and the more you learn about art the more critical you will become of your own work.

>>1727415
Kinda like the first post said
>>1722130

I agree, but thread was over from the first post.

>>1722130
This, the reasoning behind that is that mechanical skill helps but it's nothing without trained eyes. It takes at least 3-4 years of constant hard work and studies to see colors and values as they are. Not to mention the other fundies.

Our eyes are being trained as an athlete trains their body and we can see errors even if they are minor. This is why I trust critique coming from an artist more than from someone who's not.

>>1723407
I want to sit on the computer, play games and browse the internet

>you do that, fuck the money

oh okay. See you in couple months when I'm out of money and loose everything.


That's a fucking bullshit thing to tell to people. if your dream is something that you can actually make money off of, then great, but that is not always the case for everyone. You can't tell people to do what they love if the thing that they love is something that they can't make a living out of.

>>1727525

you can't account for born-failures. if doing nothing with your life is your lifes dream and calling, then you are meant to be a failure. and so be it.

if you are TRULY passionate though, you will end up as one of the dudes with a successful "lets play" youtube channel, maybe playing competitive games professionally, later working as a consultant for companies developing these kinds of games, or you will review games (like that angry joe guy) etc etc.

alan is right. but that doesn't mean those who are destined to fail can magically "make it" by convincing themselves that "being a failure" is their one true life calling.

>>1722127
its because of the terpentine,
organic substances have that affect on painters.
trust me im a chemist.

No one is ever ready for praise. You make yourself ready when you get it how undeserved it may feel. It takes some maturing to be tactful too. But frankly the only way to give an honest response is to talk about how exciting your favorite exciting art is. Take the person out of it. Same with your own stuff. If you've stopped looking at your latest doodle with amazement and such and feel frustration like never before it just means you're learning way faster now. It comes with living and sweating for it. But do it for yourself and don't lose track of why you do it. And hate art every once in a while and watch a chick flick and then have angry make-up sex. Stop worrying about how many minutes every bragging sillywig on facebook states it took when it took them 50*½/0.49+7 times that amount to do it when they were learning it the first time which you might be. Spend more time on it. You can't do it fast when you're learning it but do call it done before you grow old. Don't isolate yourself from having peers. Friends to go there with. Find your buddies and screw the person worship in the small facebook pond. They don't think their stuff is very good for the reason ppl have pointed out and that's reality. Do it for excitement rather than gratification and think about if you could be switching your subject matter or method or format to get more excitement out of it on a bi-weekly or something basis. Don't just take inspiration and ref from your upperclassmen monkeys. Take in everything. Facebook is both good and bad for that. Like-popularity-biased. Get your own favorite inspirational material. Figure out why you're doing it. Fantasize about the most awesome career or subject matter or IP or style or format or future self-application you can think of every time you can remind yourself to. And you'll be getting uncomfortable praise from fans way too soon if you keep it up anyway so enjoy shopping for your own groceries while you can. Your's truly, Justin Bieber

>>1722127

>>1729040
While what he is saying is true, I do not trust any advice from Will Smith. I am sure he tried his best with his son but thats a product of this mans advice and guidance right there.

Also, Its good to know where you want to end up. It lets you prepare for the long walk.

One day I decided that I wanted to become a professional artist and now I am working hard and its going fine just fine.

>>1729144
>>1729040
If you're just randomly putting down bricks and spending an abhorrent amount of time obsessing over its placement, you're not going to have a wall, and it's not going to be done on time.

>>1729202
The quote is only saying that progress is made incrementally. Rome wasn't built in a day. Don't be a tard,

>>1729144
You don't judge a man based on his faggy teenage son. I'm sure at that age, you've been an equally obnoxious and pretentious little faggot, regardless what your parents taught prior to that.

>>1729203
I'm fairly certain the guys who made the great wall of China, set out to make a great wall and not to place bricks.

Face it, it's a retarded metaphor.

>>1729209
>he's too autistic to understand even one of the oldest and simplest of metaphors in the world

holy shit man, I feel bad for you.

>>1729209
It's not a metaphor for the Great Wall of china, it's just a metaphorical wall. Being literal isn't helpful. Again, it's only advocating that you give your full attention and devotion to the task at hand, and that focussing on the present task will yield a better result that takes you were you want to go.

Do you think will smith set out to be a ten zillion dollar movie star, and that was a starting point? He focused on whatever acting gig he was doing, and did it the best he could, which naturally led the way for future success.

>>1729210
>Too retarded to understand that a metaphor still needs to be accurate.

Mental midgetry at its finest.

>>1729212
>thinks will smith's metaphorical language needs to be a guide on how to build actual giant walls
Jesus

>>1729212
It is accurate you fucking retard. The lesson of the metaphor is to focus on small goals in order to reach the much bigger goal one step at a time.

Focusing on the big goal means to constantly be reminded how far away you still are from reaching it, which leads to depression and procrastination. So instead of going "why am I so fucking shit? Why can't I paint like Ruanjia? Why is my anatomy so bad? Why am I still nowhere near the level I want to be?" You think "today I will study xy and get a little bit better at it than I was yesterday"