/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

what's a better way to draw a box in 2 or 3 point perspective without creating the horizon line and vanishing points?

>>1606446
The best way is to just drill perspective into your head so deep that you can imagine the horizon line/vanishing points in your mind.

Okay, I have a trivial question about Moleskine sketchbooks. Do you guys prefer hardcover or paperback?

I would go to the store and see for myself, but I would have to board an airplane or ferry to get to them.

i'm new to /ic/

are draw threads the only place where art gets critiqued or can you make your own thread for a particular piece?

>>1606464
You can make your own thread, but it's seen as obnoxious as fuck.

>>1606460
>Do you guys prefer hardcover or paperback?
If we're talking about Moleskine specifically, the hardback sketchbook is a lot better than their softback plain notebook. The sketchbook line has thick pages - their other lines don't necessarily. There's also a line dedicated to watercolor if that's your intent.

tldr: Make sure it actually says 'sketchbook' on the front.

As an obligatory aside: moleskine is good but overpriced. Other brands may better suit you depending on your needs (paper color, thickness and texture; spiral binding; price; etc)

>>1606464
>>1606467
Yup.

Making your own thread is acceptable when something NEEDS its own thread, as is the case when you have many images to post (ex: comic pages). You also need to be competent enough so that people won't disregard/flame for not reading the sticky.

If you have one piece, put it in the drawthread. If it's just a sketch, put it in the sketchbook thread. If you're all 'muh style' put it in the 'alternative art' (anime) thread.

on paper i can make long and accurate strokes, but on my recently bought tablet i'm finding i need to chicken scratch more often to get my lines straight. when i attempt long strokes using my shoulder/elbow it typically comes out a little wobbly or not as intended. so my question is: are chicken scratches as bad digitally as they are on paper? should i use long, confident strokes until i get used to the low drag of my tablet? pic related: on the right side is what i need to do to make my lines always what i intend.

>>1606486
>>1606467
oh, i see

so other threads are basically for art discussion?

>>1606477
> Make sure it actually says 'sketchbook' on the front.
Ahh. Didn't realize they had a separate sketchbook line. Almost went ahead and just bought the "plain notebook" version.

I'm just going to be using them to sketch in whenever I'm out.

>>1606524
Good thing you asked here first. I got a bunch of pocket sized plain notebooks from a friend a while back. They were terrible.

>>1606515
You might be used to using larger paper than the size of the tablet. generally speaking chickenscratch lines are slightly more forgivably on a tablet because they are easier to quickly clean and refine. It should get better once you practice more though

>>1606515
you are drawing too fast. on the other hand, if you were to draw too slow, your lines would be shaky, but it wouldn't be a chicken scratch. you need to find the right balance in speed.

>>1606529
>>1606532
thanks anons, a bit reassuring

>>1606445
Should you use the auto correct features of photoshop?

such as

auto tone.

auto color

etc..

>>1606548
They can be useful, but you shouldn't need them. Better to use your own artistic judgment over value ranges, color space and temperature than rely on a program to "balance" it.

how are you suppose to thin paint down with medium when you don't have a lot of paint or medium?
I watched a video about it and the dude just put a whole tube in a jar and started mixing a ton of medium into it, I don't really have the jars or amount of paint to make this feasible. Is there another method?

>>1606570
Oil Paint of course.

Why can't I draw from my imagination? I've read the sticky, read loomis multiple times, and many other books, I do studies all the time, gesture, etc, and I can repaint an image almost perfectly. Yet any time I try to use what I learned, it ends up looking like something a 12 year old would draw. Then I get frustrated and don't draw for the rest of the day. Do I just not have my fundamentals down yet? I keep studying and it's like it's all for nothing. I don't want to just be a human photocopier..help please

>>1606575
show your studies.

>>1606575
I know your pain. Spend more time on your imagination drawings. Chances are that you expect to get good results fast, like you can when you are just copying.

I've just begun to learn with respect to actual art techniques. I have a few questions that aren't really related to each other.

Since I'm beginning anew, is it acceptable to use a lined notebook and any old pencil? Or should I buy something a bit more specific? A pack of printer paper, a sketchbook, mechanical pencil, charcoal pencil? I am aware that any good artist could use anything, but would a beginner benefit from anything in particular?

Are there any techniques/workbooks/places that are recommended for work on penmanship and signatures? I'm a horrible writer, and would like to be at least able to do it decently. Super fancy script is neat, but not what I'm into. Is it just something I have to practice, or should I start from the beginning?

Finally, I have a feeling this one may be inflammatory considering where I'm asking, but I ask this in all sincerity.
I've noticed a trend in many artists of any caliber to be kind of pompous. Especially about certain subjects such as modern art/artists and pornography of any kind.
I understand that opinions are a driving force behind creation, so it's natural to come across a piece of art, or even an artist, that offends your personal taste/opinion/worldviews.
Why does porn garner such malice? How do you deal with those people? And how do you avoid becoming that person?

i don't think anyone answered this last thread

in layman's terms, what is the difference between saturation and chroma, and value and luminance?

>>1606575
are you constructing or copying what you see? when you do studies do you construct the model/object or do you copy the contours? if you simply copy everything you see you'll never get better at constructing from imagination.

>>1606590

those terms aren't defined with scientific-accuracy. nobody can give you a clear definitive answer

What's the best way to practice detailing?(Digitally)

Friend of mine(honest as hell) told me my stuff is rough and needs some tightening up.

>>1606590
huevaluechroma.com should answer that for you. I don't know myself

when people say base color, are they referring to the local color of something?

>>1606591
That's not true. Even if you don't construct the model, you can still see and understand shapes and 3d and all of that. I can draw from imagination without constructing.

>>1606614
Sometimes. It can also be used to refer to the color of the midtones. It can even refer to the underpainting, or the first layer of color that's applied.

With that in mind, I'd say it's context dependent. It isn't a universally established technical term to my knowledge, so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

Why we can't discuss graphic tablet here, on /ic/?
I don't believe that /g/entoo lovers know anything about art...

>>1606653

if the threads focus is more about arting with tablets the thread will most likely not be deleted and you will get a fair amoun of useful replies.

it's only when people want to discuss the tech aspect of tablets that they get harassed and tormented (or/and the thread deleted)

>>1606655
That and we'd get tablet threads ALL DAY EVERY DAY if they weren't against the rules.

Is this any good? Just got it recently:
http://www.amazon.com/Practical-Guide-Painting-Vincenc-Ballestar/dp/0823040895

>>1606653
it used to be that about half the posts on the front page were about tablets, it's sort of let up a bit though.

Tablet question.
Does /ic/ tape a piece of paper on their tablets for textures sake?
I just tried it and the control feels so much better. I have an old ass graphire 4 though.

And how different are the newer tablet in terms of drawing surface? The graphire 4 i use is ridiculously smooth.
Asking because i'm thinking of upgrading soon.

asking again since last thread the anon who replied kinda misread my post.
i'm not talking about surface size or ratio, i'm asking about how the pen feels on the tablet.

>>1606666
good quads

>>1606712
pretty sure the most models come with a paper texture/feel

Can someone try to draw this guy anatomy? I'm having a lot of trouble trying to draw him, maybe someone else can give me a reference.

Question regarding Barnett Newman, as one of his paintings has an auction price set at 43.8 MILLION U.S. Dollars.

What is his style supposed to mean? How am I to understand the meaning of his art simply by looking at it?

I understand that it's a form of expressionism, but...pretend like you're speaking to a small child. Why is his art considered so valuable, and what is he SAYING with it?

What's the significance of the zips and contrast between colors?

Thanks in advance.

In comic books how they understand where to ink? For example for the nose sometimes they just draw the nostril. In practice how do you choose the level of detail and where to ink?

are these traced ?

http://djinn-world.deviantart.com/gallery/?offset=0

>>1606737

he just needs money to spend on hookers and heroin, there is no deeper meaning. and behind closed doors he cracks himself up at the idea of selling that piece of garbage for 43.8 mil

>>1606752

yep with a likelyness of around 97.13%

>>1606762

>needs

Needed, you mean. He died in 1970 or so.

>>1606725
someone better than me will do a better job (i probably fucked up the drawing anyway, at some point), but this is how i approach it:
draw on separate layers
1)start with oval for torso. just worry about orientation, for now, as the oval can be interpreted as either front/back/side, simpler is better.
2)add pelvis, this time attempt to draw it in correct perspective. note the angle.
3)add legs and ovals for feet. in the sketching phase, we are trying to be as simple and abstract as possible. details come later, but pate attention to angles and relationships (how far apart things are)
4)sphere for the head. simple, but placed right. note the overlap. you don't need to draw the neck at this stage, but imagine how far above the torso head is located.
5)arms are looser than legs (legs more angled). ovals for hands. once again, orientation is more important at this stage.
6)lower opacty and make a new layer. now draw detail in straight lines. i compare it to painting with hard round, as opposed to soft brush (if you don't know what i mean, just ignore it). anyway, detail.
7) lower opacity once again and finish it up however you want: if you want line drawing, draw cleaner lines, but if you want a painting, paint it instead.

OR you can just trace.

>>1606773
haha, fuck. oops.

>>1606725
...you already have a reference, you fucking faggot.

just draw it. it's okay if it has a bunch of mistakes the first time around.

>>1606775
it's probably difficult for him because he's not using construction / thinking in 3D. drawing everything at once can be overwhelming, especially an unusual pose.

>>1606773
>>1606774
Oh, I can do it now! Thank you VERY much, anon! Your "tutorial" will help me a lot. Have a good day, I wish the best for you.

why is tehmeh not streaming anymore?

>>1606778
np. if there is anything to learn, it's that you have to start simple. btw, i fucked up the elbow, it's too close to the head, making forearm too long. drawing is ruined!
if you want accuracy, you can always just trace.

I've recently switched from Bamboo to Intuos, and I feel like with the Intuos I have to press down very hard in order to get an opaque line, Is there a way to fix this? It's starting to cramp my hand and damage the nib.

>>1606820
open wacom tablet properties and adjust pressure sensitivity, make sure you have the latest drivers installed.

>>1606835
Thanks bro

If I just PRACTICE, keep going, always drawing anatomy, loomis, I'll become a decent artist? Or is something else is necessary?

>>1606580
>>1606587
>>1606591
Thanks for answering guys. When I do a study I usually just get down the overall shapes and lines that I see and then I put the contours on. Not sure if that counts as constructing.
I'll do a quick study to show you what I mean

>>1606886
Also, is VITAL to trace to become a decent artist? I don't like the idea of "cheating" but...

>>1606886
you get good at what you practice. if you keep drawing from anatomy books, you're going to get really good at drawing from anatomy books. if your goal is to draw from imagination, you have to practice drawing from imagination and use anatomy books as a guide to correct your mistakes, after you did the drawing.

How would you draw something like a slime monster in perspective?

Or anything with irregular limbs n shit. I just can't get any depth no matter how hard I try.

>>1606934
first draw your slime monster.

than draw a a horizon line.

make sure everything is correct via horizon line. ie can't see the top of things above the horizon.

cant see the bootom of things below horizon.

than. "if needed" backtrace the various limbs to their according vanising points "there can be as many as you need as long as they are on the horizon line.

the best thing to do is run through ernest norlings book for a few months.

drawing cubes and all sorts of stuff just thinking about perspective.

some people pick it up quick but you get the idea.

Is there a digital 3d skull or head or something that I can move around and draw from different angles? Oh my god I can't draw heads from extreme below and above angles. Shit makes no sense.

>>1606989
If you have an iOS device, this app will do the trick. IIRC the free version includes skeletal view.
https://itunes.apple.com/us/app/lecorche/id515026024

>>1606990
>If you have an iOS device

I do not. PC only.

Well, thanks for posting it at least.

How do I learn to shade porperly?

>>1606993
perspective first and while youre at it, practice line work until they are perfectly straight

D/ic/ks I need some oils paints and I want to invest on some good ones for christmas. What should I do? I have some academy grays, since those are the ones that were sold here individually, and I like them, but I don't know if I should pick some colors from individual tubes or just buy a set. Any kind of advice?

How would one know if they've fallen into "muh style"?

>>1607074
If your style has not emerged from your studies and practice but has been there "from the start".

"Yo stuile" seems to be little more than some part of you refusing to abandon symbolical drawing altogether and simply replacing a poor symbol with a better rendered one.

Source: I can see the allure of doing that as a beginner myself.

>>1606445
Do you guys ever look at master artist like feng zhu or jamie jones and just laugh?

like not at them but at how vastly superior their work is to yours that you just laugh about it.

>>1607334
Not really.

If someone's vastly better than me, I just find their work inspiring. Sometimes I'll get a little upset that my work isn't matching my standards yet, but I try to ignore that insecurity.

>>1607074
Ask yourself if you actually intended for something to look a specific way, or if you resorted to a shortcut because you don't want to put in the effort to learn (and continue to resort to that shortcut consistently).

>I wasn't going for a photorealistic look anyway
>I meant it to look like that
>I think it looks better this way
>It's my style, so I don't have to listen to what you say
If you find yourself saying or thinking any of these in response to valid critique, then chances are you're fallen into 'muh style'.

>>1606934
Learn how perspective works, and learn how to construct using basic forms. Read and do all the exercises in Perspective Made Easy, then watch these videos on construction:
http://ctrlpaint.com/videos/constructive-form-pt-1
http://ctrlpaint.com/videos/constructive-form-pt-1-5
http://ctrlpaint.com/videos/constructive-form-pt-2

>>1606889
Tracing isn't vital. It can be a good learning exercise if you can't copy shapes correctly, but don't present anything that you've traced as something that you drew freehand.

>>1606888
>When I do a study I usually just get down the overall shapes and lines that I see and then I put the contours on. Not sure if that counts as constructing.
Construction usually involves drawing forms, not shapes. Generally, you use construction to create complex forms from basic forms. If you're copying shapes, or jumping into complex forms without mapping out basic forms (at least mentally), then you aren't constructing.

>>1606993
Learn how light works, then study from life. Paint a fuckton of still lifes, and you'll eventually learn.

Read all of this:
http://androidarts.com/art_tut.htm

>>1607060
Depends on what you need, what's included in the set, and how pricing compares between the two options.

Back in my introductory oil painting class, we used: 1 white, 1 black, 1 warm red, 1 cool red, 1 warm blue, 1 cool blue, 1 warm yellow, 1 cool yellow. You can mix nearly anything you need with those base colors. As to which specific pigments, my memory is fuzzy, but I'm sure someone who does a lot of work with oils will be willing to chime in.

>>1606748
That knowledge comes with experience. Keep in mind that the guy handling the inking is thinking about the overall design and balance of the piece, and the direction and quality of the light source. Some decisions are also purely stylistic. For example, it's common to ink only the nostrils on a woman's face (provided suitable vantage point and lighting) to give the impression of softer forms for the head.

>>1606712
Keep in mind that adding texture to a tablet (whether it's by taping paper or using a newer model) wears out the nib faster.

Simple question, do you like this?

/3/ is pretty much dead for this but I have a simple question about the more non-technical stuff when it comes to the body and head.
I have a lot of different little measurements in my head for getting the face and body and such right. Stuff like "corners of the jaw should be pulled up a bit to be higher than the chin" or " the line of the ear/jawline is right down the middle of the head" and such.
But when it comes to faces it always gets me in the ass.

so how the fuck do i... face?

>>1607376
To be a little more specific, i am trying to get this eye shape on there but at the same time make it seem "logical". In my head I don't know where to have the extra mass extend "into" or keeping things in proportion and just avoiding the uncanny valley while still being able to pull off certain proportions or effects or whatever.

>>1607376
>>1607378
Well, first of all, your eyes are far too close together in that picture. It's throwing stuff off. Then you should try to replicate a real eye first, since it seems your drawing is still based on the shape of a real eye, it just has some weird circles around it.

Your lips don't look too bad and your nose is lacking nostrils but I'm going to put that to being incomplete.

>>1607379
yea the face and eye in general is pretty incomplete. i ended up avoiding it by working on the rest of the body. such as the back or arms or trying to get things look smoother.

puttering around and avoiding it. Also the drawing there isnt mines. just the effect i plan to get.
Are the proportions of the head correct? that is one of the major things ive been trying to get correct before i set these "proportion rules" in my mental library

>>1607381
the back

>>1607382
One of the many rules i had in mind for the jaw and neck was that the neck would start about midway of the mandibles. This is keeping in mind about the variances the human face can have.

A really hard thing to show with the neck though is the sternocleidomastoid muscles. Where they properly connect and how they work with the different neck-lengths. Like how it would appear if a person was to have a long neck(such as on a female) or how the connection shows when it is on the clavicle or how it interacts with the trapezius.
this area right here is probably the hardest post-head thing for me to work on.

How do you stop that feeling of anger and contempt for yourself and everything you draw?

>>1607385
you have a mandible not mandibles. and saying 'midway of the mandibles' is especially confusing, especially as you also don't define what part of the neck is starting.

>>1607395
I have heard that doing the Famous Artists Course and completing it is a quick fix for the people whose internal tyrant tells them to draw oddly specific things which are still out of reach.
http://www.amazon.com/Famous-Artists-Course-Lessons-24/dp/B000BPIO5M

>>1607395
by getting all zen about it.

every picture you draw tells the truth about you. if it's not what you wanted it tells you. in other parts of your life you'll never know the truth for sure. do you want to be the kind of guy who can't handle the truth?

>>1607400
holy shit that was lame.

>>1607395

It's normal to be critic about your own work. But you have to see what's wrong in it and not simply despise yourself. This attitude will just lower your self-esteem and won't bring any benefit. If you're not good as you wish you just need to work harder and to improve. Step by step, not all of a sudden.

>>1607402
well you don't need to get zen about it in that specific way. maybe you can just say 'ah fuck it' and that works for you, i'm not a troglodyte so i need to reason it out.

What is the proper way to do gesture drawings?

Does it matter?

I was always under the impression that the most important part was to convey the pose simply and quickly. I have a friend that insists that the correct way to do it is with a bunch of circles. They showed me a few, but I could not understand the pose through the circles. It just kind of looked like a mess.

>>1607434
There are lots of different ways. Vilppu teaches an approach where he moves around the form and finds the gesture with many curved, loose lines. Watts atelier style is very deliberate with as few unnecessary lines as possible for the sake of accuracy, they also keep the gesture rather flat instead of wrapping around the form. Sargent did very loose, scribbly gestures just to find the movement of the figure. Some people do very thick, painterly gestures, so they won't even be tempted to do outlines, they just draw the limbs, torso etc with one thick line each.

But the thing is, because there are so many ways to do the gesture, a lot of new artists tend to think that they can't do anything wrong and everything is fine as long as it reads somewhat like a human figure in the end. That's not the case either.

>>1607455
Different guy here. When gesturing, you're not trying to follow the contours of the body, you're showing the "flow" or "rhythm". What the fuck does this mean? Why should I waste my time drawing lines that don't correspond to the figure?

Why are the fundamentals that /ic/ advocates so radically different from the fundamentals that are actually taught in academia?

>>1607457
Different guy answering.
Because you can put any old drawing on top of the gesture. Think of the figure as a container for the gesture. You are focusing on what is outside when you should be focusing on what is on the inside.

Is it sound to take artistic advice from someone who just conforms to the convinetions that they stumle upon on the internet?

>>1607475
Shut the fuck up, moron

>>1607477
Unless you are a total beginner who doesn't have any clue about art whatsoever, you should be smart enough to judge the worth of the received advice on your own, regardless where it came from. There are lots of great artists posting on the internet who know their shit and there are lots of terrible ones. Same with real life art teachers.

Why are their so many emotional-vampires on /ic/?

>>1607479

>>1607457
Because if you start directly with the outlines, you will get caught up in surface anatomy and detail and lose the overall gesture and the simplified statement of the figure.

>>1607483
Because people like you and me don't see others like they see themselves.
Add intellectual, cultural and personal insecurities and what a person sees in other people tells you more about that person than it does about other people.

If you see some satanistic archetype in other people then it just might be you not yet having expanded beyond what you hold true by virtue of having read and understood it.

>>1607483
idk, maybe the graphic nature of bret easton ellis's work appeals to artistic wannabes.

>>1607482
You sound like a total beginner. (Lots of angst coming from your tone) So it should follow, according to you, that I should be extremely skeptical to what you're trying to say. After all I have no idea who you are and can only judge from the information given, even though most of that is calling upon personal experience to which I have no knowledge if true, false, misinterpreted, or exegerated.

>>1607491
Yes, you are right, my advice, that you should be smart enough to judge advice on your own and be able to think for yourself is totally wrong because of my "angsty tone"....

Are you retarded or something?

>>1607457
Flow and rhythm refers more to how you the artist read the form. It is not something static to the anatomy, but something dynamic that emerges in how you interpret the form of the figure in the moment of its action. So a good understanding of the figure is essiential beforehand. Different schools of thought abstract the figure in different ways and can do gesturing differently. A classical approach will lean flow and rhythm to gesturing the figure as part of the pictures planes composition. While an animators approach will lean flow and rhythm to constructing direction. Both are doing the same thing, giving a general plot based how the artist sees the action.

>>1607457
there's a very good book on this subject called, "Michael D. Mattesi - Force. The Key to Capturing Life Through Drawing" which you can get a pdf of on the internet.

>>1607493
Are you retarded? Seriously think about that, since the basis of the detection was on your contradictory posistion and not the angst comment to agitate you with. If all you did was read the first line and throw your arms up, then I ask: with such a quick temper how sure can you be that you have a rational grip in understanding how the world works around you? Are you trying to save face because somebody didn't accept your word as gospel? If that's true than from your reaction it seems you really don't have a lot of experience with the world.

What authority does an image board site, founded on discussing Chinese cartoons between neckbeards and wapaneses, have on Art?

Why are asians so infatuated with line?

>>1607505
who needs authority?

>>1607507
why are you so infatuated with race, looking for someone to blame?

>>1607503
Look you dumb fucker. I wasn't giving you any advice on art, I wasn't telling you about how the world works, I don't want you to "accept my word as gospel" I simply told you that if you have the tiniest understanding of art, you should be able to judge advice you get about art on your own and the fact that you even had to ask such a stupid question in the first place shows that you apparently lack the minmum requirement of intelligence to do this.

Please don't reply to me again as I have absolutely no desire to continue this idiotic discussion with someone who is clearly mentally challenged.

If most everybody here is posting their work to get a critique on how to git gud at doing their art, then why are they so quite on how they do the work? Do they believe others can see exactly what they were thinking when they started working? And what makes someone so sure they know what the problem is when they haven't seen how the other person works? Is everybody just waving their dicks around saying we should listen to them because their dick is bigger?

>>1607511
You don't want me to accept what your saying but you want me to acknowledge that you're right about me being stupid? Mmmm... Are you sure you're not retarded, or maybe you have a temper that prevents you from thinking before you type?

>>1607514
>If most everybody here is posting their work to get a critique on how to git gud at doing their art, then why are they so quite on how they do the work? Do they believe others can see exactly what they were thinking when they started working?
why would it matter how the work was done? you've been to too many galleries where the artist won't shut up about process. are you one of those WUT-BRUSH-DID-U-USE?
>And what makes someone so sure they know what the problem is when they haven't seen how the other person works?
the best we can do is to make analysis based on what we see, whether we hit the mark or not is for the artist to decide. but yeah, we can't have an artist's life story every accompany their work every time time someone posts.
>Is everybody just waving their dicks around saying we should listen to them because their dick is bigger?
don't know about you, but i can easily tell apart troll posts from the ones who are trying to help. from the way you put it, no one ever gives good advice, which is wrong.

>>1607510
Why do you want me to blame someone? Its a simple question about Asian asethetics. Do you want to make this about race?

>>1607509
Then why should anyone care what you have to say on Art?

>>1607498
Thanks anon.

>>1607530

Not that anon but there are also 4 videos on youtube from the same author:
http://youtu.be/07fusT-dwVE

>>1607522
>why would it matter how the work was done?
Because that's the implied question when people ask for a critique, and the implied answer when others say things like "fundamentals". The whole conversation is about how to do the work to get the results wanted. And since most times a critique is asked because a target was missed...

>>1607522
>artist's life story
What does that have to do with the process? Are saying it's not feasible to ask how they went about doing the piece without hearing a life story?

>>1607533
this is too abstract and hypothetical to give a definitive answer. we are going to need some examples, as you could be right in what you're saying, or you could be dismissing a solid advice. i agree that "fundamentals" has become somewhat of a meme and the lack thereof is implied, despite what the artist has done, but i personally take it as "needs stronger foundation, work on drawing a better construction".

>>1607536
don't know about you, but i'm not going to write up my process every time i post something.
a picture is a picture is a picture. if something looks wrong, i want people to point it out, despite of whatever effort i have put into.

>>1607544
Is it possible you can't see the problems without other people pointing them out because you aren't aware how you developed the problems in the first place?

>>1607540
Example: asking for a redline; or saying something is wrong but you re not sure what; or asking how to got gud

>>1607474
Different fields would define different things as fundamentals.

>>1607514
>why are they so quite on how they do the work? Do they believe others can see exactly what they were thinking when they started working? And what makes someone so sure they know what the problem is when they haven't seen how the other person works?

You don't need to see or hear how a piece was done to judge the merits of the end result - whether it is successful or not. If the composition is bad, it doesn't matter how they got to there. The art should speak for itself.

At the same time, problems with workflow can often be pieced together by just looking at the piece. If a figure is lopsided and broken, then they didn't do a proper construction; if the colors are muddy and have unnecessary texture, then they petted in their marks with a low opacity brush; if the muscle masses are wrong, then they don't know their anatomy; etc. You don't need to see them petting in tiny, hairy lines to know they weren't drawing with the whole arm.

>>1607474

What are the fundamentals taught in academia?

I can't afford life drawing classes at the moment, got any suggestions on what I can study to continue my progress?

>>1607599
3 Components of Art: Form; Subject; Content
Principles of Organization: Harmony and Variety, Balance, Proportion, Dominance, Movement, Economy
Elements of Art: Line, Form, Value, Texture, Color
Abstraction: Naturalism, Realism, Semi Abstraction, Objective Abstraction, Non Objective Abstraction
Space, Time, Motion

Where can I find directions on the step-by-step process of painting with Photoshop? Mostly like the block in to blending phase and when to grayscale first and stuff

(NOT ctrl paint, I can't watch the videos you have to download)
(yes I know, read the sticky but I'm having a lot of trouble sifting through it and finding specifically what I need)

>>1607608
use a wall mirror

>>1607402

Anon had a weird way to explain it, but you could see it as positive feedback. In art, you also learn from your mistakes, so mistakes should be looked at as opportunities, coz they show you what you are missing (colors, composition...). Then you'll try to improve in those particular areas. Hence, they are positive feedbacks.

Getting mad at everything you draw, on the other hand, is not healthy. People shouldn't see their studies as failures.

>>1607608
Go to the park and watch peeps like a stalker. The zoo is great as well. I did this after I got tired of drawing myself.

>>1607617
>(NOT ctrl paint, I can't watch the videos you have to download)
The free videos cover everything except value->color.

does anyone have problems downloading from cgpeers?

How the hell do people think about perspective when doing big pieces? I just read about horizons and vanishing points and all that and it's kind of baffling me. Like, I see paintings of big monsters fighting small soldiers below ... do these people think about vanishing points for all of these complex shapes, or what?

>>1607831
depends on the artist, usually industry people think about it a little bit but mainly freehand it, generally fine artists just freehand everything, except patterns on carpets, architecture and that sort of thing.

>>1607474
There are thousands of teachers who all teach differently.

I'm having trouble with resolution. When I see a lot of digital paintings, they seem to have tiny details I can't get doing images at 150 ppi at the resolution of my desktop. But when I up it to 300 ppi, obviously, the same size image doubles in size. Do these artists get that by doing an image at a really high ppi, and then squashing it down to a smaller resolution?

I don't use a nub, just the bare pen.
I only have a Bamboo Fun Wacom tablet (its like the crappiest one)
Am I damaging my tablet? whats the advantages to the nubs?

>>1607856
ppi is a meaningless metric. Unless you're working in print, it's never that useful to think about it, and instead think of size in terms of pixels. But to answer your question: everyone works at a much higher resolution than you see in the final product on the web. Work large, and save a smaller jpg for posting on the web.

Here you can see samples of original resolution paintings by pros, and various downsized iterations of the same files:
http://massiveblack.com/workshop/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/?C=S;O=D

>>1607910
?
There should already be a nib in the pen from the start, unless you forcibly removed it. It shouldn't work without the nib though..

>>1607831
A lot of the time organic shapes are eyeballed for the most part. The alternative (and recommended route for beginners) is to break down the complex forms into basic forms (cubes), which are 20x easier to work with when dealing with perspective. Use those cubes to inform your construction of complex forms.

>>1607913

Oh damn, this is exactly what I was looking for, thanks. I had always assumed that, but it kind of baffles me that you can paint at a higher resolution and then lower it, while getting a higher quality than you would have starting at that same lower resolution

Can someone link me a good set of conte charcoal pencils?
I'm looking on Amazon and I don't feel like I'm finding the right ones.

>>1607721
It works from other trackers but not cgpeers, can someone please help? It's really frustrating. I've updated to the newest utorrent version and back without luck, I'm on a mbp.

>>1607385
>>1607382
It's coming together.

still can't keep a good form in mind for the nose though..

What regions of the nose are actually hard/more static and what parts flex with certain movements?

Like that set of rules apply to when the noses should flare or push around?

>>1606445
would someone redline this pls
I could also use some shading tips.

>>1608036
sorry, forgot to rotate.

>>1608036
You need to stop chickenscratching, do clean lines.

is this "cheating? will this help my learning path or distract me from some necessary fundamentals?
(crappy grids, just an example for my question)
do you use any kind of grids when drawing a study?

>>1608112

It's cheating if you draw it over the reference and then just copy that to draw with, however, you will still be learning if you are able to construct those lines without drawing them over the reference. Of course the best course of action in terms of learning is to draw it in 3D forms from simple to complex (See Loomis' planes of the face)

>>1608112
is fine. isn't all that different to holding up your brush

>>1608115
i tried to reproduce those guidelines with the black ones hidden, this is the outcome. how could i improve observing and reproducing the angle of a line? i find that really challenging

>>1608115
oh and of course the method would be still forming 3d shapes, meant this to help placing them properly

>>1608112
As long as you're learning, it's not really "cheating".

>>1608119

Too many guidelines to start with, used in a way that is not replicable and will only confuse you. You're breaking up the lines so much, it is practically a contour drawing.

Simplify, make confident lines, draw it by hand instead of using line tools. Keep adjusting as you go.

>>1608034
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWZZ3SFmDS8

You might as well watch all the videos on his channel.

>>1608119
>how could i improve observing and reproducing the angle of a line? i find that really challenging
Compare angles of lines to horizontals, verticals, and 45 degree lines. Alternatively, find the correct start and end point for each line, and the angle will be correct.

>>1608119
>>1608169
Same guy.
Watch this approach. She uses calipers but a thin stick with your thumb works just as well.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hakaoQ9L1RM

>>1608169
so maybe a grid like this would help more?

>>1608170
wow. going that mathematical is a bit unfamiliar to me, but i'll give a try to those techniques.

>>1606737
Not everything in this world has significance. Sometimes people are just dumb.

>>1608184
>so maybe a grid like this would help more?
It's better, but you shouldn't avoid diagonals at together. Considering that the head is angled, you don't get the most use out of vertical and horizontal lines. You need to locate the angle of the midline, and the angle of lines 'perpendicular' to it in 3D space (eyeline, mouth line, etc). Those kinds of lines will be useful for the drawing process. Use verticals and horizontals to compare visual landmarks.

>>1608198
ah, pretty clear now, thanks!

>>1608184
>>1608198
Also try to establish your contours, and refine from there. Simplify curves into line segments for the initial shape placement. The approach is shown in Drawing Made Easy, and is the same technique to copying Bargue plates. Pic related.

Once you can copy shapes accurately, you can move on to studying forms and perspective.

>>1608198
Yeah, was about to say pretty much same as this anon. You'll be using both the axis of the subject and the axis of the paper or screen (in each case, there's a horizontal and vertical).

So in the case of your ref, as I was drawing I'd be checking things aligned using whatever relationships I could find: "The nadir of the nose is directly above where her top lip stops... the corner of her mouth matches up with the right hand side of the iris... her jawline starts at a 2 o'clock angle... "

Whatever helps you really. Some people like to "triangulate" features using dividers. I find it a lot more intuitive to match horizontals and verticals and then eyeball the connecting diagonals. Horses for courses.

>>1606591
What is meant by constructing? I try to put into cylinders, shoulders joints, pelvis with circles and the drawing always looks worse.

How do i do construction properly?

>>1606653
Why arn't a couple of entry level tablets/info just in the sticky? Even if it is a year old or something, also occasional/limited tablet discussion would benefit everyone else on /ic/

>>1608361
>What is meant by constructing?
Construction usually refers to drawing through the form, and building complex forms from basic forms (cubes, spheres, cylinders, cones).

>I try to put into cylinders, shoulders joints, pelvis with circles and the drawing always looks worse.
That's because you're using shapes (circles), where you should be using forms. Watch Vilppu's drawing manual videos (not the anatomy videos). Specifically, his talk of box and spherical forms and using those to create the body.

>>1606570
>>1606572
Still need help with this.

Was that thread of the man who just stole art and copy pasted it for his job of doing book covers archived anywhere?

>>1608491
That depends on what you're using. I only know about oil paint, and that requires little to no medium.

>>1608591
oh shit i've been looking for this guy as well. The thread just disappeared ;_;

>>1606445
what should i put in my portfolio when i apply for my animation university course? any help would be greatly appreciated

>>1606515
maybe taping a bit of paper over your tablet would help you get the hang of it?

>>1608906
I'm not judging you on content, I'm judging you on ability, and I would not.

What the hell do I do with this neckbeard?

>>1608941
I have the same problem on facebook. I even unfriended him and he requested it again. He always ask me what up or what I'm doing. Most of the time I just answer his question with answers and don't even respond to whatever the fuck he says about himself. I even mention my boyfriend all the time like "What did you do today?" "Me and my boyfriend did this." "What are you doing for this event?" "might not go, will be with boyfriend."

>>1608944

ask for pics of his penis

that should weird him out and he will leave you alone.

>>1608926
the frozone pic isn't mine, i just thought it was funny and related

have you got any actual advice?

>>1608941
>This conversation is incredibly awkward
>after being asked how they are
shit like this makes me cringe, step up anon

>>1608960
I don't know, I thought he wanted a request or a commission or something. Banned that fucker, that will teach him to start innocent small talk with a stranger and also watch and favourite his/her work.

I remember a website where there was a large number of faces in profile and front view, but I didn't save it. Does anyone know what it is?

>>1609018
It's probably not this one, but just in case:
https://www.pinterest.com/characterdesigh/photo-reference-expressions/

>>1609053
It was a different website, but thank you anyway. That still looks pretty useful

>>1609018
facity?

>>1609069
Yes, that's the site I meant thanks. I don't know why I thought they had profile views though.

>>1609073
no prob

good entry level/beginner tablet? I've heard bamboo is good but any other suggestions?

Anyone here have a blog link from someone who took the Michael Hampton 'Analytical Anatomy' class on CGMW where they post some of their studies from the lecture? IIRC, there was something like that.

When you want to make prints of a painting you did, do you prefer to use a scanner or to take a high-res photo? Which is better, and why?

How many times do you draw an anatomy model? Like, when I'm studying anatomy, I draw a same model 8 times at least and never looks good. Is it normal or I'm doing something really wrong? I'm an amateur.

Why is the sticky so full of shit? Did the guy that wrote it take any art class at all? Is it suppose to be a joke or something?

>>1609216
This is /ic/ not Watt's atelier. Hide it and move on. Ignore the cult of autists and make your own path.

>>1609219
>if we ignore all the stupid people they'll stop being stupid

Sounds like a great plan!

>>1609216
Write a new sticky then instead of bitching about it.
glhf

>>1609215
>when I'm studying anatomy
>I'm an amateur
Chances are you're tackling anatomy too early. Can you construct with simple forms believably, and render them accurately? Do you know the proportions of the body, it's base forms and major planes?

>>1609216
>Did the guy that wrote it take any art class at all?

It wasn't made by a single guy. It was discussed collectively in a thread on /ic/. If you don't like it you don't like /ic/ so make your own sticky and move elsewhere.

>>1609222
If the mod thinks that sticky is what substantiates as being good, what make you think he's intelligent enough to know the real deal when he really does read a good one?

If you think the sticky is good, why don't you actually have supporting reasons, other than whining "Write a new one". I mean seriously is that all you people got? You don't no why it's good, but you know it's the best you can do? HA! No wonder most of you still draw like 8 year olds, you can't even comprehend basic critical thinking.

>>1609224
>It was discussed collectively in a thread on /ic/.

Your hugbox thread didn't give much of a fruitful discussion. More than half of the draw guide is a list of books. I don't see how a bibliography is the same as an "outline on how to go from godawful, eye hurting drawing to decent artsyfartsy skills."

If you don't know how to help others learn to draw, just stop. If you actually like /ic/ and are the least bit interested in helping others, then you wouldn't be trying to retard them in the first place. You need to leave, you're being a tumor here.

>>1609231
>I don't see how a bibliography is the same as an "outline on how to go from godawful, eye hurting drawing to decent artsyfartsy skills."

It's very simple. There are many books and tutorials out there in the market. Some are good, some others are not. Some are for beginners, some others are for advanced artists. The sticky makes a selection and it helps you to know from which ones you can start depending on your level and on your goals.

>>1609247
That's more like simple-minded, than being simple. Given the shit that gets posted on /ic/ regularly and that incohesive garbage in the draw guide before the torrential list of books, I can't find any reason to see those that "wrote" the sticky are qualified to give a curation on what's best for others. It's like trying to convince me to believe some dirty uneducated homeless rehab veteran knows all the right companies to invest in. Nothing personal, but I don't think the the autists that wrote the sticky are qualified to know what's good or what's helpful. It's just that simple.

>>1609216
I'm really curious about your reasons why the sticky's content is shit. What, exactly, is shit about it?

How bad is the "hairy line" that I see in the sticky?

I'm still not too sure how to get over sketchiness, or how much sketchiness is okay.

>>1609260
I'm really curious to how anyone can consider that to be good. Seriously, tell me why you think it's the best sticky possible, or even a okay one the matter, and I will be more than happy to show how wrong you are.

>>1609264

Are the book choices shit? Is the stuff about the hairy line true? Is using an online resource for gesture drawing okay?

Those kinda things are running through my head.

In all honesty, I agree with you. The sticky itself doesn't seem to really do anything for me other than to show which books I should be reading, but if even that selection is bad, then I don't know what the sticky is there for.

>oh the bad sticky doesn't teach me how to draw

>>1609265
It's incohesive, incomplete, and invalid. It basically says learn formula drawing, here are a list of books.

"Wow! Thanks /ic/ your one stop drawing guide really turned me around. I use to draw loli weeb shit like a 3 yr old, but now I'm another one of your sticky success stories."

>>1609261
Look at pictures that have hairy lines compared to those with relatively clean lines. Almost always, the ones with clean, confident lines are better looking than those with hesitant, scratched in lines. You don't need to be a robot making perfect lines, but you do need to have control over your mark-making.

>>1609265
This is why they need to back up why they think it's shit. They're the ones making claims, so it's up to them to defend their reasons. Otherwise, we're left pretty confused about what needs to be improved upon.

At this point it just seems to be a troll.

>>1609257
Well, what the fuck do you want?

A sticky that holds your hand all the way and guarantees you can draw by the end of it?
Learning to draw well is a long and painstaking process, and /ic/ can't hold your hand throughout it.
If you need extreme handholding go to an atelier or get a personal mentor.

All the /ic/ sticky can provide is how to avoid common beginners mistake and point you in the right direction.

It tells you to practice, and what to practice.

>>1608941
>>1608944
Oy vey, this knave is raping me with his words ! The patriarchy is at it again, alert the authorities ! What a travesty, truly the suffering of womyn will never end.

>>1609273

Yeah, but what do you think about the progression of books that the sticky recommends?

>>1609275
Maybe I'm tired, but is there an alternative to Loomis? I'm might've gotten too used to him and I get the feeling I'm getting a creative block

>>1609283
I've heard good things about Vilppu and Bridgeman. Pretty sure the sticky has them in there, too, among half a dozen other resources for figure drawing that aren't Loomis. You don't need to study them like a religion, either, you just need to understand them to a point where you can reproduce the ideas and techniques on your own. You don't necessarily need to follow the sticky's order, either; go at your own speed.

Also, sleep is important, Anon. An artist needs their strength.

Will these books ever replace a flesh-and-blood teacher?

>>1609293
Haven't they done so already?

It depends on the individual. Some people are capable of teaching themselves, provided they have the aptitude or the inclination to do their own research. Others learn better when they have a teacher to guide them. Everyone learns differently.

>>1609283
If you actually bothered to read the sticky you would see it also recommends Vilppu, Hampton, and a dozen other books.

>>1609293
No.

>>1609296

I did read the sticky, I'm still just at Absolute Beginner step 2. Loomis is the only book there, but I'm going to give Vilppu a shot

Read the sticky.
>what do you mean I have to read a book
>i want a summary
>where are my cliff notes
>i don't want to work
>i don't know how learning at a critical level works

>i am better than you anyway
Then help make a new one, if you are so good.
>you wouldn't know good if it slapped you in the balls
>you can't even defend the one you have against my superior intellect
>it would never be recognized if i did
>so i won't

This is what you sound like. But please, go on. Your ego is as big as Dobson's, and this is hilarious.

The best part is, I doubt you'll be able to ignore this post.

>>1609275
>Otherwise, we're left pretty confused about what needs to be improved upon.

Tell us why you think it's a good sticky in the first place. I already stated what sucks: It's poorly written (incomplete, incohesive, and invalid); it's mostly just a list of books so it doesn't accomplish what it intends.

Your kind of defense is unreasonable. If you're not going to let others get on the same wavelength with your understanding as to why you think it is a good sticky, then no amount of argument could reach you. You're not allowing a discussion. It's basically you deflecting until you get confirmation, and not really discussing about what really would make a good sticky.

When a drawing is posted and is so awful that you don't know where to begin in assessing it, do you think the OP can rightfully say you have tell in detail what's so shit about?

If you think Yes, then the usual response "go read the sticky" is a shit response because that's a vague response. Add to that, the sticky is already a vague outline and still doesn't address OP's problems effectively. So the sticky isn't going to help because it doesn't address why OP sucks.

If you think No, then you probably have a good mind to reason that in order to understand a problem well enough to combat it it's good to understand how the problem came to be. So if you were to ask the OP about his process, chances are you would probably be able to pinpoint more accurately where OP went wrong or even provide fitting information for OP to figure a better way on his own.

If the sticky was actually helpful then we wouldn't see so many of these so-called "shit-tier artist". After all the sticky was put into place to GIT GUD and improve the quality of posts. Instead we get more confusion because of how inept the sticky is. It's like it was written for some stereotype of a "shit artist". And you dismissing any kind of criticism as a troll doesn't separate you from the stereotype.

>>1609306
>If the sticky was actually helpful then we wouldn't see so many of these so-called "shit-tier artist"

Yes sure. We just need a sticky with magic powers.

>>1609283
>the progression of books
What progression? Explain how going from Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain to Illustration For All it's Worth is a kind of progression.

You can tell it's a list categorized from people adding what they like. There is no organic unity to them presented as a progressive learning path. It makes the wildest jump from insinuating symbol drawing to a wave of formula drawing books.

If you want a progression then you need to identify your goal precisely. If it's figure drawing, than half those books are not necessary. And as to what kind of figure drawing, even more of those books should be dismiss.

BUT if the goal is to understand what drawing is and how to get started then the list needs to start at defining drawing and all it's varieties and try to bring those together in a cohesive brief, THEN AND ONLY THEN can you start listing books on expanding particular drawing goals. If you can't see the bigger picture and how the pieces fit together then you can't rightly tell others how to go about.

>>1609306
not them. This feels like it needs it's own thread. If you want to carry out a whole new change to the board, then why do you think it's a simlple question/issue that can easily be resolved with a few answers?

>It's poorly written (incomplete,
what's missing?
>incohesive,
how so? and how would you make it not so?
>and invalid)
in what way? and how would you make it not invalid?

>So the sticky isn't going to help because it doesn't address why OP sucks... in order to understand a problem well enough to combat it it's good to understand how the problem came to be.

Are you saying that new people should start new threads and then everyone should ask what's op's process? And then from that you want people to declare what that person needs exactly to suit their problems? Also are you saying an absolute beginner should be good right away and improve after one reading of the sticky?

>>1609312
A sticky that is purported to prevent 12 million anons from having the same conversation 12 million times, is believed, by some, to have magical powers

>>1609320
>what's incomplete, incohesive, invalid?
What's the goal: "basic outline on how to go from godawful, eye hurting drawing to decent artsyfartsy skills"? What does that mean exactly? What's being implied and why is it not said directly? How is drawing being defined here and how are skills related? What's the binding unit of knowledge here, going from point A to point B? How did we get from symbol drawing to formula drawing when the basics of drawing were left out? Wasn't this all for the "utter beginner"? Why the leaps and bounds in subjects when we didn't even cover how to utilize the basics? What makes the formula method the defacto way? Why? Because all those books advocate it? That's it?

From start to finish the sticky is on par with a book report written by an 8 yr old.

>Are you saying that new people should start new threads and then everyone should ask what's op's process?

If you can't identify exactly WHY a drawing sucks because you can't tell where the problem is coming from, then what makes you think you can say right off the bat how OP can improve? Are suggesting we should be clairvoyant? Drawing is thinking. If you don't want to hear the thinking then you're not interested in helping, you just want to tell others what to do.

HELP MY WHOLE PAINTING TURNED GREY SCALE. CTRL Z DOESNT UNDO IT

>>1609334
Did you read the sticky first?

>>1609336
THANKS FOUND IT IN TH

>>1609222
>>1609224
>>1609272
>>1609275
>>1609281
>>1609312
>>1609336

Convince me the sticky is worth reading. Sell me the sticky!

On a board that uses "go read the sticky faggot" to help with general beginner problems why is it so terribly difficult for some people to give reasons why they think it would help? Not one person here can give a good argument as to why the sticky is worth anyone's time? You think it fine? OK, tell us why? Is that an impossible request? How so?

>>1609368

>>1609162

>>1609368
Nobody has to sell you shit.

It's supposed to point really new people in the right direction and that's what it does.

It's not some all encompassing guide, that holds your hand, and teaches how to paint like Michaelangelo.

>>1609389
That explains why it was made: a magical powered website to absorb all the noobs and weebs. I want you to tell me why it's worth reading, make me understand what makes it such a recommended "one stop beginners guide". I don't care about what prompt it to be written. I care about the content. Convince me it's worth the hassle, and NOT just some distraction.

>>1609394

Why do you think people have to convince you?

>>1609394
I'll try to answers this one.
Why? I am the worst beginner on /ic/, lack discipline and have no experience with drawing that I can remember from my past.

So two weeks ago, after lurking this board for years, I decided that I'd have to start somewhere after having spent so much time on this board, remaining at square one.
In a crit thread it came to me why the sticky exists: you have to start somewhere.
And when I looked at amazon's list of books for beginners, I still do feel swamped by positive reviews of books, which satisfied the people who bought them:
"since I just wanted to draw comics/manga/webcomics, this books is excellent".

Of course, these people are happy with whatever book they just bought, because their interest in art is currently a dead end, they want to learn a neat trick to impress and endear them to others.
The sticky explained to me, that I don't see properly, can't see yet to be able to draw, showed me, that I see things as symbols, as discreet entities instead of being part of a whole, so I picked up the two books mentioned there, in the sticky, for absolute beginners like me.

>>1609391
>Nobody has to sell you shit
If that's true then there is no reason for anyone to listen when told to go read the sticky. Which defeats the whole purpose right? It was intended for the beginner, but since there is no arguemnet why a beginner should read it why should the beginner listen?

>>1609399
The argument is 'it points beginners in the right direction'.
It provides art books, and tells you to avoid basic mistakes like chicken scratching, and it lays out some of the fundamentals.
That's it, that's the 'argument', there's nothing more the sticky can do for people.

If beginners doesn't want to listen and continues drawing deviantart tier animu drawings that's up to them.

I can't even tell what the fuck you want to hear at this point.

>>1609400
He's either a troll or an idiot, anon. Just leave him be.

>>1609398
The sticky made me understand that I am months, years away from posting something on this board, requesting criticism and help, because whatever I can currently do, will be riddled by beginner's mistakes, hiding whatever I tried to achieve behind a wall of errors: proportions out of whack, mistaking gesture drawings for outlines or stick figures and asking for criticism of these same.
This, of course, me posting these day after day, would soon clog up and consume many people's time, because they would have to tell me, day in, day out, what is wrong, which book I should study on perspective (or that I should study ANY ONE book on perspective, really) and so on, so pointing to the sticky is the sane thing to do, it puts the (delusional) aspiring artist on her path to constant improvement, instead of teaching how to constantly draw the same pose due to tracing practice.

tl;dr the sticky, if followed, improves both you and the quality of the board, which improves the quality of criticism.

>>1609368
>>1609394
you're not getting it.
it's just a collection of all kinds of "learning material".
for people who are completely self taught (like me), we would usually improve by looking at books, tutorials and every bit of information we can find on the web. the sticky is basically /ic/s personal collection of that. it's just a dump

the sticky is for self teaching.
the thing you noobs want is to attention, a teacher. someone to guide you.

if someone referrs you to the sticky, it usually can be interpreted as:
>..study by yourself, you're not worth teaching. you've barely tried, whatever i teach you is going to be lost on you anyway

>>1609398
Wait, you thought a list compiled by a small collective of anons on a site notorious for housing the assholes of the internet was a better alternative to publicly voted reviews? Sounds like the problem isn't knowing where to start, but not knowing how to draw your own conclusions or do research. "Shy" isn't a fitting handle, try "timid" instead.

this whole issue is basically
>"telly me, tell me, tell me!"
vs
>self study

some people will never go to the sticky, that's because they don't want to learn, they want to be taught. they want to be attended to.
it's the complete opposite of the people who made and use the sticky, where it's about what you found in your quest and sharing it with /ic/.

hell, >>1609368 is the perfect example:
>Convince me the sticky is worth reading. Sell me the sticky!
yeah, let me wash your back and read you a bed time story too. anything else?

>>1609400
What makes it so right? That's the sale isn't? Tell me why I should follow that direction and not any other. What makes that sticky the right one over the Google search, "How do I into drawing?" If this sitcky is really worth its constant reccomendation, it shouldn't be hard to convince me why I should heed it over say Mark Crilley's books, which are some of the highest selling drawing books published. Give me facts, stats, data, not just some speculations and conjectures.

>>1609405
I think you misunderstood my post.
The intent of the sticky is to serve as a beginner's guide, the intent of reviews is to satisfy customers of one single book.

In other words: the sticky will eventually teach you how to build a car, books recommended in a book list will teach you how to change a tire and check your gas.
If the analogy is lost on you, it's fine. No worries.

Also, calling people who gain nothing, not even internet-fame on some website from helping someone like me, assholes by inference is a bit sad, since I think that the people having made the beginner's guide in the sticky were and are honest in their intent, because it helps both them as frequenters of this board and the board's quality.

>>1609408
If you think Mark Crilley provides better art eduction, go for it man, buy his books.
Nobody ever claimed the sticky is the best all encompassing guide on the internet.

Nobody is going to convince you, it's a good guide, but if you think otherwise feel free to ignore it.

>>1609404
>study by yourself,
Why not just say that? And the sticky says it's an outline to better drawing. So which is it a list of reccommended books or a general outline to help weebs git gud? It can't be both. In either case you still have to convince me why one is worth my time, since it's already established that my work isn't worth your time to critique. Make me believe you have good reasons to believe the sticky would be the best thing for me.

>>1609408
>What makes that sticky the right one over the Google search, "How do I into drawing?"
>Mark Crilley's books, which are some of the highest selling drawing books published.

tfw you answered your own question

is there a type of paper that can handle a lot of erasing and redrawing?

>find out about the word filter
everything is alright with the world again

>>1609407
What makes the sticky an effective learning spot over any other? Why should I listen to you "telling me" that I can be "taught" by it? If this all about sharing the "quest", then why is asking to provide good reasons to heed the sticky words be such a pain in the ass? I should just take your word for it? Listening to baseless assertion are the norm now?

And Shy doesn' t give reasons as to how or why the sticky is worth anyone time other than saying it gave "direction"; he's no different than some born again christian testifying, "I was lost, but now I am found". A Google search can give direction, a youtube channel can give direction. I want to know why the sticky should be the one to listen to over my own self study. Why should I let the sticky lead me?

>>1609432
Like I have said, I needed to start somehwere.
Ask me in a year which books mentioned in the sticky are rubbish in my eyes by then ;)

>>1609416
It's called a Wacom.

Srsly though, most paper should be fairly forgiving for *reasonable* erasing. Just don't emboss the damn paper by digging at it with a blunt, soft pencil. Keep your marks light, use softer pencils rather than heavier pressure to get deeper tone, and probably most importantly try to negate the need to erase in the first place by using light construction, get the proportions correct off the bat, and so on.

Why do you ask, anyway?

>>1609409
You misunderstood. If it's a guide, sell it to me. There has got to be more to it than just saying it's guide for beginners. That doesn't seperate "read the sticky" from "learn to draw better".

It gave you direction, how is that different from any other resource. What makes it better than those other Amazon directions, besides anonymity. You might as well link to a goodread page, it'd be no different. And if any this is true then why keep a sticky around? It's no different right? What makes the sticky unique over other beginner guides? Why should I listen? Persuade me to change my beginner ways with the sticky, if you really want to help.

>>1609412
>So which is it a list of reccommended books or a general outline to help weebs git gud?
>It can't be both.

but it is.
it was created as the former and over time, it got treated as the latter.
and i agree, the latter is probably not a good thing, but you've got to understand, it's just a list.
a list made by several people too. you will come across the same information in different articles and some may even be useless to you.

well, it's a mindset thing.
it's hard to explain, but here's how i did it. (and there was no sticky back then)
-i thought about what i lacked (by comparing myself, by analyzing etc)
-i made some guesses about my weaknesses, and then i would search for specific phrases on youtube, google etc to look for tips, lectures and opinions on the matter.
-rinse and repeat, slowly build up knowledge and eventually, skill. (by practicing, of course)
in hindsight i came across many rather useless articles and videos, same as with the sticky.

like i said before: SELF STUDY. the point is to be proactive.
have you ever seen a book called "git gud"? what would it's contents be like?
do you just want to "git gud", or do you want to KNOW what great artists think about, what it takes to learn the craft? that's the difference in mindset between a proactive learner and someone who wants to be spoonfed.

>>1609432
>What makes the sticky an effective learning spot over any other?
it isn't. people might as well just tell you to google it. or look for books. but since we have the sticky, why not use it. it was made for that purpose.
if you don't like the contents of the sticky, you can actually look for information yourself! unbelievable, huh.

>>1609411
Ignoring the saged advice of "read the sticky" is sacrilegious. This not about if I should read it, this about putting your money where your mouth is. Why keep saying it if it doesn't matter if anyone should listen or not?

>>1609414
So you think saying go read mark crilley books is a better alternative to saying go read the sticky? At least he's got the publishing records to prove it. What does the sticky have? An author with a shitty looking avatar. Seriously, your taking advice from this shit tier autist? How is he any different from crilley?
http://www.squidoo.com/lensmasters/artfag

>>1609452
>but it is
Back it up. And saying it's hard to explain just tells me you don't have all the information to make good judgment call. Maybe the gaps on your side of the argument is telling you, you're not seeing this as clearly as you thought. If you can't guide us through all the contradictions that plague the sticky, at least explain how a biblograghy can also be an instruction manual. Because that is basically how the sticky is presented.

>>1609455
Thinking it's sacrilegious is your own interpretation. If you actually can find some facts, or take a few screen shots, that would be nice, because you consider facts oh so important judging by post >>1609408
>Give me facts, stats, data, not just some speculations and conjectures.

You constantly spout
>Why should I do this?
>Why should I do that?

And the answer is, you shouldn't.

Nobody is forcing you to do things.
The sticky is a nice compressed guide of resources.
If you want to google 'how do I into drawing' and ignore the sticky, do that.

You also constantly yell
>Why should I follow the sticky!
>Back it up!

The sticky features books made by some really good artists that cover fundamentals, and all kinds of other important shit.
If you want to ignore those great artists, and learning drawing by Mark Crilley, once again, go ahead.

>>1609460
He's saying that Mark is a shit artist and if you google random shit as a beginner you'll end up learning the wrong things.

Also publishing records don't mean shit when it comes to drawing.

Mark is a pretty bad artist, and it doesn't take a master critic to tell that.

>>1609465
>Back it up.
huh? are you retarded? what is there to back up?
you think that "a list of reccommended books" somehow contradicts "a general outline to help people improve"?
what else do you think this is for, other than helping people improve? leisure reading?

>instruction manual
you think the only thing that helps people is an instruction manual? is that it? otherwise your thought process is lost on me.
the sticky doesn't guide you as clearly as an "instruction manual" would, but it still guides you.

and you keep asking what the difference is, and there is none.
like i said, people could just as well tell you this:
HOW MANY MONTHS AND YEARS HAVE YOU PRACTICED?
HOW MANY SKETCHBOOKS HAVE YOU FILLED?
FUCK OFF YOU CUNT, YOU BARELY EVEN TRIED, YOU BARELY KNOW -ANYTHING-, WHAT USE WOULD MY ADVICE BE TO YOU

which in essense, reads as: we're not going to help you. you have to do it yourself.
and that's how it's supposed to be, that's how all self taught people learn.

and mind you, here i'm only talking about the beginners who get referred to the sticky.
for people on a similar level, it makes sense to help each other out. just like how beginners help each other out.
and even if you can't help each other out, referring to the stick is still helpful for you.

>>1609473
Never said I was being forced, just asking for a sales pitch. Don't be insulted by that. Nobody is forcing you to carry that burden. If you can't find any justifiable reasons then fine, don't say anything, you shouldn't. If you just want to stick to "its good just because" routine then go ahead, nobody is forcing you not to.

And I think you misunderstood the crilley comparison. He is a successful artist, just like the ones in sticky. Sold lots of books, made a name for himself, etc. So telling me a list is good because the artists are popular aswell doesn't distquinsh one from the other. That's just you saying you prefer one over the other for personal reasons.

Why should we listen to you?!?!

>>1609483
>Also publishing records don't mean shit when it comes to drawing.

Then what does?

>>1609491
>being this butthurt over a simple challenge
You seem like you wrote the sticky. Are you Artfag?

>>1609501
> just asking for a sales pitch

There is nothing to sell you fucking dense nigger.
It's a list of god-damn books, and some really basic tips, jesus fucking christ.

>That's just you saying you prefer one over the other for personal reasons.

Except Mark is a shit artist that doesn't know his fundamentals. He's not qualified to teach.

>Why should we listen to you?!?!

For the gorroliant time, you shouldn't, but you're the one asking the fucking questions and I'm answering them. Nobody is forcing you to listen to me, but if you're gonna say shit like
>hurr durr why should I lsten to u fagit
you shouldn't be asking questions in the first place.

>>1609502
If the artist is any good.

Mark Crilley is not a good artist, and certainly not qualified to teach.

>>1606445
Ok /ic/, what should I use to paint this? And by that I mean the type of paint

>>1609504
your challenge is meaningless. i am adressing the issue here.

it doesn't have to be the sticky. you can use anything ou want
the "sticky" means:
>look for it yourself. we ain't gonna explain this shit to you
because it's usually too much.

>>1609519
Then why say anything at all? Why even respond? Its not like your actively helping. And it's not like they're effecting you either. Unless this has more to do with than there being too many problems from their work for you to deal with? And isn't just as wasteful? Instead of alleviateing the problem of /ic/ being bombarded with amatuers posting, your adding the quality post "go read the sticky faggot" into the forray. This doesn't seem well thought out.

>>1609527

How many hours are you spending here complaining about the sticky? Don't you have anything better to do?

>>1609509
First impression was "oils" but then I read up on adding texture to acrylics, so it is really your call.

I'd go for acrylics because I think oils are a bit more unhealthy.

>>1609505
The sticky refers to itself as a guide. Read it, you seem like you're not famliair with what's in it.

And what's wrong with asking what makes it so worthwhile? If somebody reccomended you a book out of the blue, wouldn't you want to know their reasons? Wouldn't you at least want to know if its worth your time? Just randomly accepting the book seems counter to the idea of learning on your own. If there is nothing to "sale", then why reccomemd its "purchase"

>>1609528
Is that your response to the questions

>>1609533

I made questions. Can't you see the question marks at the end?
I want to know what is wrong in your life. Convince me that your life isn't completely fucked up.

>>1609540
How s that /ic/ related? You didn't have to respond in the first place, it was not like anyone was forcing you to answer the question. No reason to get buttmad; just let anons be. The sticky is reccomended, all I am asking is what makes it worth the reccomendation. If the obligation of reading it falls on me, then why a should I consider it at all? It was reccomended to me first. There has to a explaination as to why anyone would reccomend it. Saying its for begginers doesn't distinguish value. And saying it just a list doesn't answer why the list is considered a defacto standard response, unless it's the beginner thing all over. In that case, this is just becoming a circular argument. Which should give you pause next time you say go read the sticky.

>>1609527
you realize that telling people to put in an effort before posting IS quality control, right?
you pretend like the sticky is just used to jab at people, but you ARE supposed to look at the sticky and it IS supposed to help you.

well thought out advice is reserved for people who actually will be helped by receiving it.
but if someone can BARELY draw or paint, what the hell are you supposed to tell them?
shall i write up a book for them and maybe attend to their other needs too?

imagine this scenario:
a programmer asks another programmer about a problem he can't solve. they would probably help each other out.
now imagine this scenario with a complete beginner who wants to learn java or something.
you know what the programmer would most likely do: he would throw a book at them to read in, just like /ic/ does.

Sup guys, total noob here, I'm looking to just do a quick artwork for a coworker (we gotta give a small handmade thing) and I found a really sick type of painting, i just want to know details on how to achieve a similar feel.

Is that oil or acrylic?
And do you guys have any tips/tricks on how to get the feel? Ill post a close up.

>>1609550

You're answering now to a message I deleted several minutes ago.

You're insisting on a subject that received enough answers. There is nothing more to say about it.

Stop being autistic.

>>1609557
Second pic for texture.

So yeah, any tips or knowledge appreciated

>>1609561
oil

>>1609532
How about this:
Go read the books in the sticky. Go read books you find through google. Go read books recommended by amazon, or by friends and family, or by teachers. Read everything from Bridgman to Mark Crilley. After you've done that, come back to us and tell us which ones were helpful, which ones weren't, and which ones you feel are essential to every beginner.

Nobody's asking you to take our word for anything. Read and come to your own conclusions. But again, if you haven't actually read anything, you have no basis to make an argument.

Next time you want to shit up the board with your garbage, do it in your own thread - not one where people are legitimately asking simple questions that don't deserve their own thread.

Don't feel a need to reply. I'm not interested in what you have to say until you put in the effort to learn what you're talking about.

Is it normal that my hand hurts after 10m or so of figure drawing?

Fwiw I use half the screen to draw, the other half to watch the sitters, and I usually start with 30s poses.

>>1609651
Where exactly does your hand hurt?

>>1609651
>Is it normal that my hand hurts after 10m

You're starting to scare me, we both started to draw apparently at the same time frame and the only time I remember my hand aching was when I got my tablet but after getting used to drawing with my elbow I had no issues like that.

You've been using your elbow, right?

>>1609661
Mostly in the wrist, with a subtle numbness on the fingers. The same thing happens when I start playing chords on the keyboard. But the pain and numbness subside after taking a few minutes rest from both activities.

I'm really worried, If I happen to have CTS I would blame all those wrist curls I did back when I worked out because I've been drawing for barely a year and playing the keyboard for even less.

>>1609673
Unfortunately, no. I usually have no place to draw properly, so most of the time my tablet rests on my legs, moreover It feels so alien to me to draw that way and hence my drawings don't come off as good as if I were drawing from the wrist.

Good to know you were cautious about it, I guess I just took my hand for granted.

>>1609679
Well, worst case scenario just remember Lefty's experience with Carpal Tunnel and how he learned to draw with his left hand...hence the name Left, I guess.

I would strive to use the elbow instead of your wrist at this point in time, especially how you've been experiencing those pains.

When do you know if you've quit symbol drawing?

Also, if it's a bad idea for beginners to do stylized drawing, then when does it become okay?

>>1609700
when the basics have been established.

>>1609578
I've read a lot of art books, probably more than you. I've read nearly every book in the sticky. The problem here isn't which book is the right one, the problem is that when asked why anyone should read them, the response is invalid. It's self defeating to reccomend a list of books, call that a guide and not have a good idea as to why you would recommend them in the first place. Because they're good? Okay, what makes them so good? Because they're famous? So are a lot others, how are these different? We're starting to see a chain of deflationary responses. Not very promising given how theses were hand picked by /ic/.

I'm not sure if this is laughable or depressing. Not counting the hobbyists, one of the primary jobs of an artist is to sale his idea. Your skills can present an idea, but you have to argue why they should go with your idea. And nobody here can tell a beginner why they should read certain book? What's your problem /ic/?

>>1609786
Here's the thing: nobody cares about you personally. You are responsible to inform and educate yourself about something on your own, no one is obligated to hold your hand and write you a fucking book review just so you can be sure to not waste time on it. It's crazy how some beginners feel that their entire art education should be a 100% guided and that they don't have to ever think for themselves and make choices on their own, but expect other people to do it for them.

>>1609786
You're beyond hope. It's almost starting to feel like you're rusing people into writing long ass explanations for your unbelievably stupid questions. (which have already been adressed)

For the last time: there is no difference. You don't have to go to the sticky. Recommending the sticky is like recommending a book, except that the sticky is broader and more vague than a single specific book.

And you said you read almost every book in the sticky. So why are you still asking us about their worth? Are you saying that not a single one of them helped you? You're not just supposed to read them, you're supposed to apply everything in your art too, do you even understand that?
Of course we know why we recommend them. We know that there's a lot to learn from them.

This is getting unreal. There's something seriously wrong with your brain.
So you're saying recommending specific books and websites is fine, but the sticky (which is a collection of all of them) ...is somehow not?
What the hell kind of point are you trying to make here?

How do I get into sculpting? is there a "school" for it?

I feel like I'm too late for this being 22.

>>1609816
it's probably pretty difficult to find sculpting instruction because sculpting itself is damn difficult.

>>1609816
>I feel like I'm too late for this being 22
It's like learning to ride a bike. Nobody will see the difference based on when you started once you are good at it. Don't know about schools but I'd imagine you need a lot of the same things you need in painting, but you have less tools to work with regarding the colors and composition if you want to sculpt like the masters so the tools you have you really have to master

>>1609831
Well I can buy a canvas pretty easily... but a block of stone?

>>1609816

there's an art school in the netherlands with a respect fine arts diploma in sculpting.

i think it was in twente or enschede. the guys that go there are jacked and tanned lol.

but yeah sculpting is

>>1609834
It's not about the tools. Sure marble sculpting has it's own techniques but a good sculptor can make great pieces from cheap clay as well. Just like a bad painter will suck with expensive paints and fancy 20 square meter canvas

>>1609841
Oh I see what you mean.

>>1609684

I've seen him around and I had no idea about this fact, that's really impressive.

I just spend half an hour writing kanji using mostly my elbow and it felt fine, my lines were a mess though.

I will see how it goes, thanks again.

What's a good exercise for "stabilize" my lines?

How long does it take to get used to digital art? I am good enough with a pencil, but cannot even get close to what I can do on paper on a digital canvas. I tried using ctrlpaint, but looking at his first two videos they seem to be only for photoshop, and I have corel painter. Is there something similar for it, or do his videos still pply?

>>1609651
>Is it normal that my hand hurts after 10m or so of figure drawing?
No. It shouldn't ever hurt, and powering through pain will likely make things worse.

The two likely culprits are:
1) Too tight of a grip. You should be applying enough pressure for a stable grasp, and nothing more. If it feels similar to clenching a fist, then you're holding your tool too tight.
2) Unnatural wrist movement. Repetitive motion injuries are common. I want you to try to draw from the whole arm whenever possible (shoulder and elbow). For finer marks, try to bend at only your fingers. Imagine you are wearing a wrist brace - keep your wrist in the neutral position nearly 100% of the time. The same should be done when playing an instrument, typing on a keyboard, etc.

What you can do:
1) Take frequent breaks and stretch. Look wrist stretching videos for CTS. Stretch before you start any drawing (or any task that requires the hands at a similar level of dexterity), and periodically within every drawing session.
2) Lift weights if you don't already. I wouldn't do wrist curls. Stick with compound exercises. If it has motion across two major joints (elbow and shoulder in this case) then it could help. The stable wrist position mentioned earlier should also be applied here whenever possible (unless correct form dictates otherwise).

>>1609700
You're no longer 'symbol drawing' when you can observe carefully, and draw what you see. A strong understanding of forms and planes in 3D space is a necessity.

>Also, if it's a bad idea for beginners to do stylized drawing, then when does it become okay?
For best results, once you have the fundamentals down you can apply them to whatever style of drawing you want. You are by no means 'banned' from doing stylized drawings for fun in your early learning stages, but they should never substitute or influence your actual studies. Ex: when learning anatomy, don't draw an anime head on top of the model because you like anime.

>>1609884
These drills are good. Be sure to do the entire assignment though. You can also use these techniques as warm-up or practice whenever you feel stuck at other problems.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgDNDOKnArk

>>1609886
Depends on what you mean by
>get used to digital art
If you mean getting used to working with a tablet, then yes, some of his videos will help with that. If you mean learning how to use Painter, his videos will help a little in terms of theory, but not so much as to what all the tools do and how the program works. Experimentation is your friend.

>>1609935
I see, thanks, I was thinking that you weren't supposed to do stylized drawings at all in the beginning, so that really clears it up

I've just started learning some construction with Loomis' 'Fun with a Pencil' today, planning to go on to Hampton's figure drawing after

I was wondering, though, are all of the pictures I see actually constructed by making the sphere with the lines and adding the thing and adding the thing and etc? Or are artists able to bypass that eventually? Just curious

If, right now, I take 100 anatomy examples, draw 'em all, doing the best I can, I'll automatically get, at least a little, better?

captcha: overdraw iraterat

>posts a picture of symbols
>given a method to construct the forms three dimensionally
>starts going off about how they aren't symbol drawing and haven't been symbol drawing for months, how dare you

Why is /ic/ so full of delusional asswipes? Is it really trolls left and right?

>>1610072

sure, lol

>>1610101
Honestly?

>>1609816

There are several academies in Europe that have courses about sculpting.
Don't be afraid about your age. Last week I met a student that was 42 years old.

>>1609886

Install Mypaint. It's a free program that probably will seem more familiar to you.
It has different brush sets, check all of them and choose the one your prefer.

>>1609799
This is troubling. It's as if you people are incapable of hearing the question. I know that reading the sticky is a choice, I've acknowledged that several times already. The question is simply about asking /ic/ to give meaningful persuasion for anyone to read the sticky. What is so difficult about that?

And so far the responses have been overwhelmingly negative, passives resistant, dodge the point entirely, or in your case ignores the question altogether.

This is a hypothetical question about if the meme "read the sticky" has guff. And so far it's hollow. It doesn't mean anything because you people have no idea why anyone should read it. You seem only capable of spewing scripted responses. This is sad. Every response has been circular, deflationary, and flat out in denial.

It's a simple question. If you people can't persuade a random beginner to why they should read one book in the sticky--persuade them to really want to read at least one--what makes you think you can survive in the real world. You can't even make a peruavive argument. This is sad. This is very sad. You can't even accomplish a basic form of communication. And most of you anons are expecting to become career artist? You can't even get a beginner to read a book. That should give you pause for a moment.

>>1609795
Asking a for a pitch does not entail hand-holding. Nobody here is interested in your world-view or what motives you think others lack. Nothing personal, but I just don't see why any of us should care about how you think beginners have some sort of aboulia--a neurological disorder of lacking initiative or motivation. We're asking for a pitch, not what you think is wrong with beginners.

>>1610140
>The question is simply about asking /ic/ to give meaningful persuasion for anyone to read the sticky. What is so difficult about that?
again, this just shows that you haven't bothered to read and understand any of the replies.
the point is not the sticky, the point is SELF STUDY. (i've said this countless times already)
i don't care how or where you do it.

nobody is trying to sell the sticky because it's not the point.
but we could: what about proko, ctrlpaint, gurneys blog etc? do i need to write a review to convince you that you can learn things from these people?

do you realize just HOW retarded your question even is? it's like saying
>i want to learn java, convince me of which book i should read
>you can't even convince me?
do you see the ridiculousness of it all? why should we convince you? who is supposed to care about this (learning java)? we or you?

your own growth as an artist is on YOUR responsibility. /ic/ is not responsible for it.
if one book doesn't make you understand the subject, you're supposed to read another one, and another one, until you understand.
because YOU care.
we don't fucking care wether you get good or not, YOU are supposed to care.
the sticky is full of recommendated links and books. do you ask people to CONVINCE you to read their recommendations?
why do you think these recommendations were made in the first place? how much of a brat can you possibly be?

your mindset is by far the saddest thing here. it makes me weep for mankind. get the fuck outta here already.

>>1610157
>tell me tell me teach me teach me
>what lectures should i read?
>it doesn't work, i still sux :(
>the magicz didn't work :((

But that's exactly what is wrong with these kind of beginners.
My guess is that people like you just want to "get good" for the attention.
You don't have any real interest/passion for the craft at all. Which is also why you don't take any responsibility for your own learning.
It's simply sickening that you think you have a point.

>>1610135
>There are several academies in Europe that have courses about sculpting.

How open are these courses generally towards beginners?
I got the feeling you'd have to be pretty talented to begin with to get in

Hello, anon. I'm not really asking, just sharing feelings. I draw for about 3 weeks already, and so I 'm trying to focus on human figure and perspective exercises and whatever. I found that after 2 or 2.5 hours I'm sort of tired mentally, error analysis stops, and I just begin draw for fun. But at this point I feel that when I draw like this I'm kind of regressing because I'm not paying really attention for what I'm doing, and I just stopped draw for fun recently. So now when I get tired I just do nothing and I started feel sort of guilty feelings. Yea, this is my awkward story.
%%googletranslating ingrish, read the sticky%%

>>1610173
>nobody is trying to sell the sticky...
If that were true, then it would never have been recommended in the first place, or even made for that matter. I don't think you understand the general concept here. A good is produce to service a demand. And order for that good to distinguish itself from others, or to intice a others into using it, it must persuade an audience. So this is about what makes the sticky worth anyones time.

>the point is SELF STUDY. (I've said this countless times already)
And I said countless times that doesn't answer the question. We all know the sticky, we all know its a bunch of books on drawing. The question is about why I should read those books? Why they are in the list to begin with. What makes them so special to any other books? Why should anyone read the sticky? To do self-study? No shit, sherlock! We want to know what makes them worth our time and effort. Sale us the sticky, since you said, "go read the sticky." Why should we read the sticky? What's so special about your sticky?

You're probably having difficulty with this because your not understanding what a speech act is, or you're just not familiar with how the adult world works. On a daily basis people persuade others to do things: to buy stuff, to perform tasks, to collaborate, to agree, or to change their minds, or to aquire permission, or to get funding, etc. In all these acts the mechanics are the same: reasons are given through means of persuasive argument.

The sticky meme is a part of that. There is a reason people suggest it. They think it would help. Now the speech act is needed to get people to agree that the sticky will help them. After all the sticky claims that in first part! If the reasons aren't inherit to the sticky's value, then there is a serious problem. You're a zombie. You have no idea why you suggested the sticky to someone. You just said it cause that what you do. You have no comprehension as to what makes it worth the reccomendation.

>>1610201
this time i'll keep it shorter, because you're simply too dense to understand.

>I don't think you understand the general concept here.
do you not understand the difference between selling and recommending?
if i said going to the gym helped me a lot, and recommend it to you, do i have to SELL/CONVINCE you to go? why would i have to?

do you not understand the problem here?
there is a fundamental mistake somewhere in your thought process.

>>1610176
Thier questions are I'll irrelevant here. Think about it like this: somebody ask you about what movie they should watch. You tell them a favorite. But they aren't sure they would like it. What do you do?

You try to convince them, of course! You argue what makes the movie worth watching. Why you think it good movie.

Now if there is no reason for you to suggest the movie. Why listen? Why even suggest it? That's what this is about. The ball is in your court now. "Why should I read the sticky? What makes it worth my time?"

>>1610203
because you wanna into drawing and you're so stupid. maybe reading those books will help fix both

>>1610203
>You try to convince them, of course!
lol so there it is. you're retarded.

i would not do that. i wouldn't even necessarily do that with my friends and family. (unless it's something really important, like telling them to get their life together)
you're telling me if a stranger asks you about what they should do, and you give them your opinion/advice, you have to actually SELL THEM ON YOUR ADVICE?
what do i care if the stranger doesn't listen?
he asked me for ADVICE, i'm not their fucking mother.

like the example with going to the gym, the benefits are OBVIOUS. do i have to rave about it to make you go?
no i don't, because even if you don't go, i couldn't care less.
same with the movie. i liked a movie, i recommend it, it's on you wether you want to go or not.
what am i, a fucking used cars salesman?

are you underage or something? You need a serious reality check. what do you think /ic/ is? a place for artists to tend to beginners needs?

>>1610202
>do you not understand the difference between selling and recommending?
It's not difficult to see they are both about persuasion. They both have goal of getting the other person to do something. And the two terms are interchangeable when figuratively used.

Selling wants a buyer, someone has to take the item. A reccomendation, wants a praise to be recognized, someone has to agree. In both cases there is a procurement of approval, persuasion.

>if i said going to the gym helped me a lot, and recommend it to you, do i have to SELL/CONVINCE you to go? why would i have to?
If you wanted me to go to the gym, you would want to convince me. If you want to be successful in getting me to recognize that the gym helped, you are going to need to come up with convincing reasons. If you thought the gym helped you, and you reccomended it, then your reccomendation would carry with it that you think it would be helpful to me. But just saying it helped and I should go isn't be all that motivating. It would be no different than giving a command. Now if you had no other reason to reccomend the gym and just thought the gym helped you, then you're not really reccomending anything. You're just saying the gym helped you. So what? Who cares? Why tell me about it? But if it was a recommendation... Why should I follow your reccomendation? You thought it would help, right? If you really were trying to help, then why ask if you should sell/convince the idea to me? You already have your reason. You want to help! Now comes the part where you need to convincem me to accept your help, if at all you want your help to successful.

This is human interaction 101

>>1609216
>Why is the sticky so full of shit?
>Did the guy that wrote it take any art class at all?
>Is it suppose to be a joke or something?

The Sticky is the result of a collective effort.
Some of the d/ic/k took art classes, some are self-taught.
No, it's not a joke.

Some Questions are Frequently Asked on this board, is this book good for a beginner, what should I study first, etc? So the sticky is good as a FAQ.

You may argue that the answers on the Sticky are bad, but is that really relevant? If we answered directly in the threads, we would give you the same answers.

Imho, the main issue with the Sticky is that it's so big. I also feel that the Sticky "schedule" is not appropriate. For example, learning simple geometric shapes shouldn't be Step 3 for Beginners. Even a complete beginner should begin with that.

But then, it's a collective effort vs my personnal opinions/feelings. For example, I hate Drawing on the Derp Side of the Brain and several people found it helpful, so it has a justified place in the Sticky.

Do you have any link to a better guide? (in your opinion)

>>1610211
You must find it difficult to work with others. And probably get frustrated when other don't do what you tell them.

>what do i care if the stranger doesn't listen?
he asked me for ADVICE, i'm not their fucking mother.
If you didn't care, then why give advice to begin with? Because a stranger told you to? That just makes you sound like a push over, like you're the little kid that gets picked on all the time. If you didn't care one way or the other about if the stranger heeded your advice, then why make the effort to give it? Why waste your time, and everybody else's?

Right now you're trying to convince me about the nature of advice. Look back, if you don't care if somebody doesn't accept your advice, then why are you so hung up on arguing with me? Why should you care if I don't understand the your concept of advice? Why are you still trying to convince me, if you don't care one way or the other?

Do you see the irony in your behavior, right now?

>>1610216
>A reccomendation, wants a praise to be recognized, someone has to agree.
no.

>If you wanted me to go to the gym
but i don't.
remember, i'm not the one who wanted to give advice.
and i'm not your life mentor, you're not paying me and there are thousands of other scrubs who are beginners on /ic/.
to drive the point home: how many buddies are you going to sell the gym membership until you realize that everyone is responsible for themselves?

>This is human interaction 101
hahahaha...... it's not even funny anymore

>>1610221
What makes it good?

>>1610224
You are a confused person.

>>1610224
If payment is your only motivation, why are you talking to me for free?

>>1610223
>If you didn't care, then why give advice to begin with? Because a stranger told you to?
because he asked, and i'd answer if i'm nice. but why would i follow it any further than that?
have you ever considered that THEY are going to make the decision, regardless of how much i pitch my opinion?
and have you considered that they might not go even if i make a great pitch?

for example, movies:
let's say i really like a movie, i'll recommend it, say it's great, i loved it. if they seem interested i'll even elaborate as to why. that's a "recommendation" for me.
wether they go see it or not is entirely their decision. it's simply not my business and i don't care either.

>Do you see the irony in your behavior, right now?
no, because this is an arguement right now. of course it's about convincing each other in this setting.

>>1610231
>the world is black and white.
the people who help you do if for fun and because they want to help, especially if you show effort.

let me ask you a few questions,
-just how much do you think i care about the growth of a beginner on /ic/?
-how many beginners do you think there are on /ic/?
-how many of them do you think will ever get even a basic drawing ability, with the attitude they show towards art?
i draw every fucking day and i know that 99% of the beginners here have barely started to take art seriously. and the majority will NEVER take it seriously.

now tell me again why i should care about other peoples improvement.
same with going to the gym.
or even movies, where it's about taste and enjoyment.

i don't motivate every single person i meet because people need to motivate themselves.
if it doesn't come from within, if they THEMSELVES don't actually care or LIKE drawing, they're not going to make it, simple as that.
you think that a single d/ic/ks advice will make any difference at all for a beginner who is not motivated.
it's not even a drop in the bucket.

you don't understand how progress works
you don't understand just how much material there is to learn to get to a new level.
or how much time and practice you need to invest to get good.
you're simply too naive.

>>1610233
>because he asked, and i'd answer if i'm nice. but why would i follow it any further than that
Why be nice to begin with? Because thats the right thing to do? Because that's what your suppose to do? You don't care, so why follow up? Why drag all that background stuff around if it doesn't mean anything at all in the end? Why'd you even listen to begin with? To be nice? Why bring that up now? You already said you don't care.

You need to really think about how society works, you're developing some problematic thinking.

>>1610239
Why should I answer your questions?

>>1610240
>Why be nice to begin with? Because thats the right thing to do? Because that's what your suppose to do?
it's basic interaction. what the fuck is wrong with you people.
as a person, you have to draw your lines somewhere, right?
and i drew them there because i know that everything beyond that is a wasted effort.

>>1610241
then aswer this:
how should people act in your opinion then? what exactly do you want to happen?
whatever you say, i'm 90% sure it's going to be unreasonable and beginner-centered.

>>1610188

It doesn't matter if you're a beginner because from day one they tell you: "Do you remember all they taught you in the past? Just forget it"

The access depends by the academy you go, usually there is a test. You don't need to be "talented" to pass the test. But that doesn't mean it is easy.

The last time I heard that it was divided in 3 tests: 1-a test about art history - 2 drawing people from life - 3 show a graphical work of your choice

>>1610254
Why should I give a response?

>>1610254
That line analogy doesn't address the point. Are you lost?

>>1610199

Just distract your mind. Maybe read some novels.

>>1610203
>You tell them a favorite. But they aren't sure they would like it. What do you do?

nothing

>>1610261
maybe you're lost.
line as in "how far you go to help other people"

>>1610260
you don't have to, because you can't.

maybe you have realized realize that nobody has to help you.
and that you don't have to go to the sticky.
if you want to improve, people recommend the sticky. it's as simple as that.
we've come full circle.
now just keep drinking that shut up juice.. unless you do have something to say.

whats the standard price for commissions in the us (or other parts of the world)? traditional and digital illustrations

>>1610272
>you don't have to, because you can't.
I know I don't have to. But why should I? That's the question.

I know what I can and cannot do, because I am me. You are not me and can't say anything about either. You can because simppy you don't know anything about me. You can surely give conjecture about me. But why would anyone believe you? Why should I or anyone listen?

But the based question here still stands. Why should I answer any of your questions?

>>1610290
*You can't because simply

>>1610272
I am beginning see that you can't differentiate between "should" and "could". Asking if somebody SHOULD do something is not the same as asking if they COULD do something. SHOULD has to do with justification, the reasoning for something to be done. COULD has to do with whether or not something can be done. So HAVING to do something doesn't necessarily entail if something CAN be done.

>>1610278

>>1610309

>>1610290
>Why should I answer any of your questions?
there you go asking retarded questions again.

remember, you started this whole crap.
since you keep talking, i assumed you still have something to say to aid your own points. why don't you just say
>i'm sorry, i'm a terrible retard. i have nothing to say anymore, i shouldn't have started this discussion
that makes things much clearer

>>1610309
great explaination you genius. what exactly are you trying to say?
or are you referring to the "can't" in my post? because it should be obvious that it was just provocation.

>>1609931
I'm afraid I'm a bit late but just wanted to say "Thank you".

>>1610322
>>1610349
Why should I make my point explicit when you're doing a bang up job implicitly?

>>1610226
> What makes it good?

If you're a beginner, the Sticky makes for a good starting point, giving you a lot of links and references but telling you where to start.
Like I said, the main issue is that it's just too big, like showing the Ocean to someone who's learning how to swim.

If you're not a beginner, honestly it's more like a virtual library, go through it and search for what you're needing at the moment.
Personnally I prefer to concentrate on a few books, basically trying to follow Nicholaides schedule at my own pace. But that's just me, I'm not /ic/.

Sources of knowledge:
1) Traditionnal, passed down from previous generations to ours (customs)
2) Authoritative, comes from someone perceived as having expertise (a pro)
3) Research

The Sticky prompts you to read books which easily validate points 1 and 2, used by /ic/ (acknowledged by consensus) and coming from professionnals.
Point 3, not so sure, is there anybody who was a complete beginner and went through a "sticky training"?

how the fuck do I paint clouds /ic/?

>>1610514
FINALLY! SOMEBODY WITH SOME COMMON SENSE! THANKYOU!

That's a sale, that's persuasion. Maybe not a flat out knockdown argument, but an argument none the less. It suffices at least somewhat the challenge of selling the sticky to a beginner. Too bad the hypocrites here don't have even half the sense this anon has. Maybe then the sticky really would be worth reading. We'll never know though. Sad, very sad.

Kudos

Here should be an easy one I hope-
Where do you guys find pictures to study from?
And if studying in real life, is there a certain lighting or angle?
one moa ting
What is the order a beginner should take for things to study?
like
apple
buildings
peoples
/so on etc.

>>1610567
They're intimidating but super easy after you get the hang of it.
But to do them it depends on the medium. If you were doing photoshoops its pretty easy just to start with a middle tone, pick a light source and start to subtract value in the spheres of the flluffiness of them. Generally/a lot of the time the highlights will look kind of crescent shaped.
Then you add the darker value where the spheres of the fluffy cloud are pushing up against each other, don't forget the light source though. (but thats photoshoop so if you're doing it in watercolor its a little different)
Clouds are really far away so its important not to make them too defined, you probably only need a few values instead of a bunch of gradations.
One moa ting- The more expressive the better, probablly. The ref pic you showed is a little too expressive but it has potential, it just needs tightened up a little bit.
Take my advice with a grain of salt because I'm still learning but I think thats the gist of it.

>>1610514
>Personnally I prefer to concentrate on a few books. But that's just me, I'm not /ic/.

That sticky wasn't made by /ic/ with the idea that you have to study all of them.

>>1610604

You're just an idiot that got tired of his own game.

>>1610800
Nah, the idiot is the fucktwat that can't comprehend being asked to give a persuasive argument. I made a simple request, persuade me to read the sticky. And the responses were completely retarded and asinine. First it was "what's wrong with it?"; "can you do better?"; "it's just a list for beginners"; "you're not suppose to sell it"; "you can't convince people, that's not what it's for"; "a recommendation isn't a pitch"; etc. etc. It was if the question flew straight over and past they're head. AND then the retard(s) try to ensnare me with some of the most autistic reasoning and questioning imaginable, all while being completely oblivious to how they were demonstrating my points profusely. It is fucking hilarious how thin-skinned, cynical and flat out fucking stupid some anons can be. Chances are you're in the front with those clowns

>>1610857
*their

>>1610795
>That sticky wasn't made by /ic/ with the idea that you have to study all of them.

prove it.

>>1610514
Let me just state for the record that I have NOT read the entire discussion pertaining to the sticky; I am just simply stating my own experience as someone who has recently (about a year or so ago) started my artistic journey.

The sticky is definitely a virtual library for those who are not beginners and an overwhelming abyss for those who are. And to make things even harder for beginners, the outlined course the sticky suggests isn't very good.

Basic Shapes
Anatomy & construction
Light & Value
Perspective
Colour
Composition

Copy pastus from the sticky. How the fuck do you put perspective after construction and anatomy?

I still would make newfags read Drawing on the Right side of whatever the fuck and Keys to Drawing before they even begin perspective studies. But, to postpone perspective that far is retarded. The whole point of the sticky is to spoon feed people good advice.

1. Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain
2. Keys to Drawing
3. Perspective
4. Basic Geometric form practice
5. Vilppu & Hampton
6. Value
7. Color
8. Composition

Right after that, I would put in a part telling th reader how drawing from memory is useful in identifying what needs to be studied.

does anyone have the infographic for male and female bodytypes?

inb4 loomis. trying to find it for an experiment.

thanks in advance

>>1610860
>prove it.

I don't have to prove anything idiot. I was just there when there was the discussion.

>>1610857

No, you received many long and detailed answers that you didn't deserve. Because you're just a spoiled retarded asshole. You wasted people's time and you fucked up a useful Question/Answers thread.

Now that you feel that the sticky was "sold" to you can just leave. I won't spend another second of my life with you.

>>1610880

search on google images: male female proportions
and choose the one you prefer

>>1610892
The only waste here is idiots like you. You couldn't keep your mouth shut because your emotional ineptness wouldn't let you. A simple question dealing with a common communicative act, and the reaction is overwhelmingly clear that people like you have no idea what they're saying. You're welcome to leave aswell sense you already gave your precious assessment.

>>1610890
>I don't have prove anything
Because you can't

>>1610893
still doing that actually. just taking a chance whether someone here has the guide and know where to find it and saves me some time :D