/ic/ - Artwork/Critique

>>1497552
I'm in a graphic novel class, yes, seriously.

For theory, you did post two good ones. Also, "A Comic Studies Reader," (it's a collection of essays compiled in book form), and "Reading Comics" by Douglas Wolk are good too.

As for inking, I wouldn't suggest one comics inking book, but study pen and ink artist in general. I will think of a list.

>>1497566
okay, found my pen & ink class notes - there's way too much too scan and post, but I will post a few notable artists that can be studied to learn from their lines. I will try to find the time to scan a few key pages as well that will teach about different inking techniques, but for now, here are some good artists to study:

Franklin Booth
R Crumb
Laurence Housman
Albrecht Durer
Hertzog

Keep in mind, most of these are old masters and their work looks super dated. What matters is the way they use line. Not the content itself.

Studying from books won't get you very far when it comes to comics; you should read tons of comics, analyse them, the style, the writing, think about what works and what doesn't. Comics aren't what they were during, say, the Golden Age of DC; some artists work with photos and acrylics, for example (like Dave McKean or Sam Keith). There is no universal comic theory that you can get from a book, you have to make your own if you want to be special and not a Jim Lee clone.
Anyway, you should check out artists like McKean, Keith, Sean Murphy, J.H Williams, Yannick Paquette... And check out Hurwitz and Bruce Jones when it comes to the writing, they're really interesting in my opinion. And visit /co/ from time to time, to see what rustles comic books fans' jimmies and learn to avoid it in your own work.

>>1497566
>>1497572
You are a :3

>>1497573
I know, /co/ already has many lists about what to read plus why will you make a comic if you don't like comics?
This list will be more of an instroduction than a definitive study guide.

>>1497552
>Joe Buscema

What. The. Fuck.

>Inking
DC has a book on inking comics, I know CGpeers has it but I wasn't able to find it elsewhere. They have all the DC guide books I believe.

I'd recommend Framed Ink as a book on composition.

Stan Lee has a guide to writing comics that's pretty easy to find.

Marko Djurdjevic is a big fan of Hogarth and recommends him for anatomy. Take that for what you will. Pretty much every artist has a token one or two anatomists they really love. It's more important that you study anatomy and less important who you study it from(so long as he's credible, of course) imo.

David Finch is a big fan of Bridgman.

Figure drawing is the most important thing in comics. Find a local class and enroll in it. A weekly study group shouldn't run you too much.

All this being said, the idea of studying comics specifically is kind of stupid. I'd study the fundamentals of art and storytelling that make up comics. I'd try to find as many classical drawing books/tutorials as I could and draw from life as much as I could.

An exercise I saw recommended for artists in one of Stan Lee's books was to find comic scripts and attempt to illustrate them, then compare your interpretation with the actual comic and go from there.

The New Masters Academy has a lot of shit on fundamental art skills. They're pretty cheap(like $20 a month for a subscription) and they offer a lot of really good material. I haven't been able to find their stuff online elsewhere.

Alternatively you could just torrent a bunch of shit. Good luck, whatever you do.

>>1497594
John Buscema, sorry.

Could you format you post as book title and author.

On the writing section I want it to be creative writing books and books about scripting plus Alan Moore's book on writing for comics.
Tell me qhy Lee's book worth it.

Dangerous bamp

Doesn't Alan Moore have a book on writing comics?

>>1497654
It's more like a collected essay, but yea.
He says some pretty interesting stuff in it regarding process and understanding the specifics and goals of comic writing.

The afterword, written years later, is him tossing it all out the window and telling people to find their own way of doing stuff.

>>1497552
>Inking
Rendering in Pen and Ink by Arthur Guptill.

Also Drawing Words and Writing Pictures and Mastering Comics should probably be on that list somewhere.
>>1497573
>what doesn't.
Capes.

Some general thoughts - I would say that equally important to your technical skill will be the ideas and concepts driving your work. Consume lots of media and images and really pursue things that interest you. If you're interested in, like, pre-revolutionary France, heck, pick up a big book on pre-revolutionary France. A great deal of art is based on input. The more informed you are, the more interesting your comics will be. Also, a lot of people think that using reference photos is 'copying' - for example, patterns, or poses - but research really pushes your work to the next level. Comics are great dude, have fun go get 'em!

You know a thread like this would be a great "Comic Book Thread" like the sudden influx of "Anime Thread" and "Sketchbook thread" threads. Information, tips ,and critique for the specific medium.

>>1497883
Agreed, I think it's a brilliant medium.

>>1498048
Too bad nobody would probably post anything. The majority of people here are concept artists. And who would take up the duty to post a thread annually?

>>1498068
>>1497883
What if we combined cartooning and comics? And by cartooning I mean in the more classical sense, not just Adventure Time style wank

If we had a general thread like that it might encourage people to post or even get others interested

>>1498196
Lets do it! Probably give some links to Hogarth's Dynamic drawing books. some on perspective, and of course caricature.

>>1497883
Sketchbook thread has been around forever newperson.

>>1498268
Sounds good. Who'll start it though?

The list hasn't changed too much:

>Comic theory
Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud
Making Comics by by Scott McCloud
Comics and Sequential Art by Will Eisner
Graphic Storytelling and Visual Narrative by Will Eisner
A Comic Studies Reader by Various
Reading Comics by Douglas Wolk

>Writing
I'll ask /lit/ about this
Writing For Comics by Alan Moore

>Pencilling
All books by Loomis
Drawing Comics The Marvel Way by Joe Buscema
Dynamic Anatomy by Burne Hogarth
Cartooning The Head And The Figure by Jack Hamm

>Inking
Rendering in Pen and Ink by Arthur Guptill.


>Coloring
The DC Comics Guide To Coloring And Lettering
I need both books about color theory, coloring comics and markers as a medium.

>Lettering
The DC Comics Guide To Coloring And Lettering

You guys should tell me title and auther and probably telling my why the books is good.
Also: I'll add some notes like "Don't take this list as definitive" or "Study artists you like."

Comics and Cartooning Thread!

Post any pages, concepts, or ideas you want here and receive critique! Try and give any feedback you can to others, too.

>Helpful Resources/Books/Links
Understanding Comics and Making Comics - McCloud
Comics and Sequential Art - Eisner
A Comic Studies Reader - Various
Reading Comics - Wolk
Drawing Comics the Marvel Way - Buscerna

Anything else we should add? Any websites or download links would be great.

>>1498670
Some Pirate Bay links some might find helpful:

https://tpb.ipredator.se/torrent/5731707/[Gnomon]___Steve_Firchow___Comic_Book_Coloring

http://thepiratebay.sx/torrent/6364716/The_Gnomon_Workshop_-_Alvin_Lee_-_Comic_Book_Layout_and_Pencilli

http://thepiratebay.sx/torrent/5722471/
(Dynamic FIgure Drawing with David Finch)

The question is how we keep one of these threads going without it being redundant to /co/ though

>>1498913
Well if it is about the technical drawing aspect of it, there should be no risk whatsoever. Same how the anime thread won't get redirected to /a/.

/co/ isn't about how to make comics, but about discussing comics.

I believe David Finch has some videos on Gnomon about penciling and inking comics.

Someone posted on /ic/ how professional manga artists got as good as they are was they learned their fundamentals the western way (loomis loomis loomis) and then studied their favorite manga artists (copied panel for panel). So just do the same.

>>1498974
And because someone posted that on /ic/, you believe that's the truth?

>>1498981
I was just passing on what I read.

If anyone wants threads like these gone we can just ignore them. We are all trying to learn and help each other through the sequential medium. I've always found "sketchbook threads" as a bit of a broad term. And the regular "draw threads" have been mostly digital. With the annual "Anime/Manga threads" going on and being moderately successful (few trolls here and there) I don't see why we can't have one dedicated to comics. Capes, sci-fi, or whatever.

>>1498914
I just don't see how this wouldn't fit better on /co/? Discussing/reading comics is a very good way to learn how to make comics. There are writing critiques on /lit/, as well as discussion of books, and it meshes very well. The only problem with having a general on /co/ would obviously be it getting lost among the threads on Adventure Time or whatever. You're kinda right, I guess.
here's a link for the general:
http://www.amptoons.com/howto/materials.html
There's a part on there (I think) where Dave Sim discusses nibs. Arousing.
--
On another note, does anyone know the guy that posts those really colorful comics on here eventually, someone described them as having a Miyazaki feel, they're done with watercolor, I think he has a tumblr, because one of the images had tumblr in the filename. He also had some war stuff in his recent thread, but they weren't comics.

>>1498914
>>1499504
There is a comics making thread on /co/ already, thise with this Batman but they aren't very productive.

>>1499524
IMO the problem with these threads, the ones on /co/, is that they're less of a learning experience and more of a celebration/collection of things that /co/ goers do. There really isn't much of a learning process in those threads. I myself have given crits and even posted links but I'd say its 30% learning. 60% E-penis comparison. And 10% harmless fun.

>>1497552
>Writing
Read Dramatic Writing from Lajos Egri, The Story of Robert Mckee, Writing better sentences from TTC, Emotionerring the art and craft of emotions from David Freeman.

Have fun.

>>1499751

>>1499756

>>1499757

>>1499758

>>1499759

>>1499761

This list isn't growing...

>Comic theory
Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud
Making Comics by by Scott McCloud
Comics and Sequential Art by Will Eisner
Graphic Storytelling and Visual Narrative by Will Eisner
A Comic Studies Reader by Various
Reading Comics by Douglas Wolk

>Writing
I'll ask /lit/ about this
Writing For Comics by Alan Moore

>Fundamental drawing
Keys To Drawing by Bert Dodson
All books by Loomis

>Pencilling
Dynamic Anatomy by Burne Hogarth
Drawing Comics The Marvel Way by Joe Buscema
Cartooning The Head And The Figure by Jack Hamm
Comic Book Layout and Pencillig by Alvin Lee

>Inking
Rendering in Pen and Ink by Arthur Guptill.


>Coloring
The DC Comics Guide To Coloring And Lettering
Comic Book Coloring by Steve Firchow

>Lettering
The DC Comics Guide To Coloring And Lettering

Bump for interest

http://www.jimshooter.com/p/table-of-contents.html
Jim Shooter has some stuff on writing I believe.
>Warren Ellis- How to write comics
http://www.mediafire.com/?mnmmcnnyjok
>John Ostrander- Plotting 101
http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Comics/Comics%20as%20a%20Career/John%20Ostrander/Plotting%20101/
-Peter David- How Do I write a story
http://www.hoboes.com/pub/Comics/Comics%20as%20a%20Career/Peter%20David/How%20Do%20I%20Write%20a%20Story%3f/

>Charlton How to Draw comics
Basic information but it doesn't hurt to check this out.http://www.mediafire.com/download/mddwnnytzzw/Charlton+How+to+Draw+Comics.pdf

>>1501372
I'm unsure about wich of these to add, Will have to read them individualy and decide.
And as i said, I want books about creative writing in general more than books specific to writing comics.

>>1501373
This was an excellent reading, 10/11

BTW, Now I'm supporting the idea of a regular comic/cartoon thread in here.

>>1501767
Why don't we start it in here? Someone post some of their work and we critique it as best we can? If nobody steps up I'll certainly post my stuff.

Bumper.

Would it be better to do comics traditionally or digitally? It seems inking would be much easier traditionally.

>>1502610
There really is no "better". Choose the one you feel most comfortably with and go with it. Obviously, it doesn't hurt to learn both. Especially if you plan to go professionally with the "Big 2". But when it comes to which is "best" its a matter of preference and skill.

>>1501767
>>1501779
This. I wouldn't mind one myself.

>>1502612
>working for the big 2
Might as well just get some skimpy clothes and whore yourself on the street, you'll be treated about the same.

>>1502863
Mind lending me that edge? I have to cut a piece of cake.

>>1502921
Even then he's still right, it's a very hostile place to work at the moment. Although I'm sure it's not the case with every creator there.

And if you turn in your pages and don't really care about editor meddling I'm sure you'd be grand.


Anyways I like the idea of using this thread as a first, if anything just to gauge interest. So here's the most recent comicky-thing I did. Basically a webcomic pilot for a vidya journalism website. It's based off someone else's very (intentionally) loose script

I don't think I gave the speech bubble placement enough thought here. Other crits welcome!

>>1502921
Not being edgy, just sayin' - they'll screw you.

See; Alan Moore, Siegel and Shuster, Rob Liefeld(despite the fact that he threw a tantrum like a baby, he DID get screwed by editorial), Gary Friedrich, and more. Marvel and DC are extremely creator unfriendly, and by all reports are treating their artists like shit. Hell, Didio STILL hasn't addressed the editorial issues despite promising to do so.

>>1502946
I like it! While I'm no expert on these sort of comics (kinda looks like a webcomic) it does have pretty good storytelling. I feel like a more descriptive panel of time passing would be better in between panel 1 and 2. I feel like 2Pac got to the Gabe door rather quickly. Also, changing the speech bubbles to something more "monstrous" for when Gabe talks would help with the feel of the comic.

>>1503078
Capullo is doing well. But only because he was very confident and told DC that Marvel was offering him the X-Men vs Avengers.

But boy Xmen vs Avengers was a bust and Batman is doing very well with Snyder/Capullo.

You'd be better of doing this on /co/ in any case because /ic/ is just full of fucking trolls.

>>1503286
It's summer, all the boards are full of trolls.

>>1503287
^

>>1503287
In that case /ic/ is summer all year, every year

>>1503286
/co/ already has their own drawthreads. And they have been growing in popularity, bringing in various artists that are rather popular on the internet in some circles. But those threads aren't really seen as an improvement and critique area. More along the lines of "Hey look what I did today/this week/ this month/ this year...."

Also, while it is true that /ic/ is full of trolls. Everyone seems to forget that these "trolls" are just people on a computer on an image board. You can take any information they give you as relevant or harmful and ignore it. Won't be long before you can decipher whats a good crit and whats bullshit.

>>1503344
/ic/ is different than most boards because due to the nature of the subject you need to be already part of the cognoscenti to be able to tell the bullshitters apart from genuinely good advice.

If someone barged in with no prior knowledge of art, they'd just be confused as fuck as everyone tells them something different and breaks into endless arguments with each other over technicalities. It doesn't help when a portion of the board's population does nothing but throws shit at everything posted without offering any useful or constructive criticism.

On a normal art forum you would look at a person's prior work to decide whether they're someone worth listening to, that doesn't work on an anonymous board.

>>1503333
>herp

>>1497552

>Comic Theory
I assuming here, you're talking about narrative composition of some kind. So, here are some suggestion that think are still applicable.

Picture This: How Pictures Work by Molly Bang
Pictorial Composition by Henry Rankin Poore
Composition The Anatomy of Picture Making by Harry Sternberg
Composition Understanding Line, Notan and Color by Arthur Wesley Dow
Film Directing Shot by Shot by Steven D. Katz
The Five C's of Cinematography by Joseph V. Mascelli
The Mime Book by Claude Kipnis
The Art of Pantomime by Charles Auber

Though, to be fair, never underestimate the value of practice.

Make lots of comics. Make progressively longer stories. Sketch them roughly if you must.

Then go back and read them. Identify problems. Identify failures to convey something. Identify ruptures in the flow. Identify confusion. Identify things you could have done better. Do them better.

>>1503422
Comic theory will be like cinematography.

I guess it says something about the idea since this thread is constantly being revived from page 3...

>>1503218
Thanks for the input! Yeah Gabe's speech bubble is a little tame alright, I'll fix it up with something more menacing. Were you able to recognize the characters instantly?

>>1503677
Too bad nobody's actually posting comics though

>>1503927
Yeah. 2pac and Gabe. You captured their characteristics well to the point where they don't really have to look exactly like who you're portraying.

>Too bad nobody's actually posting comics though

Here's my work. Let me have it.
http://cantdrawcircles.tumblr.com/

>>1497552
Lee Bermejo (has and is doing Batman/Superman) is a family friend.

I have nothing else to add to this but I just wanted to brag

Later

>>1504230

>>1504230
Normally comments like these don't bother me. But since we're trying to get something started here and you come and say that just to add nothing got to me.

Fuck you good sir.

Guys! Should I write a script and then start penciling or should I draw astoryboard/nemu/thumbnails and then go to the pencils?
What do you guys use?

>>1505098
>Script
>revisions
>storyboard
>revisions
>pencils

I use microsoft word and paper and pencil.

I've been writing and storyboarding the same comic project for nearly 2 years now, but everytime I try to make any real progress I get hung up on 2 major things
1- Stylistic approah. This is a big issue for me since I've historically flirted with a lot of different stylistic approaches and am never sure which one will both work the best for the story and represent myself as the artist the most accurately.
2- Inking/lineart/rendering. Another huge issue, I'm never actually content with any of my attempts at a 'finished' page, either I think the lineart looks too amateur or I feel that it needs different approaches to tone and value, and then other times I'm just like "fuck it, it should all be in colour" then collapse back to square 1. Pic attached is the closest I've gotten to something I'm kinda happy to do an entire story in.

Can anyone help me out with ways I can help myself to come to some sort of decision with all this? I think it's probably a psychological issue more than anything, I feel like I'm not 'good enough' to commit to a project yet.

>>1505124
>I feel like I'm not 'good enough' to commit to a project yet.
Commit to one anyways. Maybe not that particular project, but something small, something you can rush through if at all possible, get SOMETHING done. It always seems intimidating to take on a project, but when you start getting a few under your belt, it seems more manageable. Start small((4-5 pages) and work your way up to bigger things.

>>1505149
Yeah, start small. A good think to check out is the 24 hour comic day, I think doing something like that could prepare you for creating a full length series. Like, using it as a means to create a one-shot and then taking crit/reactions to see if you should continue with it as an ongoing thing.

>>1505124
I had the same issue, till i stopped caring if my artwork changed. Just do each panel the best you possibly can and the rest will work out. Because if you try to stay true to one style you limit your progress and that's really not what you should do.

Just a tip on scripts. Their is a free piece of software called CeltX that does script layouts including comic book scripts and storyboards.

Bump.

>>1507131
>continue

When I'm happy with the roughs, I switch to the Left-Side to double check proportions, fix anatomy, and make sure everything is correct. I also do this roughing out pages. Both sides will work on the page composition, but if I feel it's not artistic enough I'll tap into the Right Side, if it doesn't read well I'll switch to the Left Side.

People mistake this for artblock, it could be, but it's really both sides of your brain battling against each other till finally you blow a circuit-- and if you read most of the books posted in this thread you'll discover they're are a lot of Do's and Don'ts to remember. That's the job of your Left Side.

The Right Side is the part of you that will make the project you're working on look like you made it. You have to convince you're Left Side that you're allowed to do that-- because if we all followed the rules everyones stuff would look the same.

Brain management is more strenuous when doing comics because there's a lot of things to double check. The story-structure, drawing stuff right, composing right, grammar, and stuff like that. The Right Side of your brain can easily be distracted by all these checks.

It all comes down managing the critic inside you and accepting what you set out to do in the first place. You probably won't make a great comic off the bat, but the more you train your brain to work for you and not against you the greater chance you have of making more comics.

The more comics you make the better you'll eventually get.

>>1505124
>Can anyone help me out with ways I can help myself to come to some sort of decision with all this? I think it's probably a psychological issue more than anything, I feel like I'm not 'good enough' to commit to a project yet.

Oh man I've got the same problem and actually found a solution, plus it is psychological--

I've been crashing and burning on my own projects for the past 4 years, nothing made sense to me. I could sketch and practice for hours on end, but when I step-up to make a comic or write a script I lose that drive I have when I'm goofing around.

The problem for me was I wasn't properly managing both the Left and Right side of my brain.

When I sketch or jot down ideas, that's all Right-Side. When I think things out and try to make stuff logical my Left-Side takes over. When I would sit down to make a comic both sides were in conflict with each other-- which lead to mind-freeze, constant self-critiquing, and second guessing.

What I plan to do from now on is assign a task for each side of my brain. Comics have both Left and Right tasks, but as the artist/author you have to teach yourself to concentrate on a specific task at hand.

The Right side is more susceptible to distraction than the Left Side. When doing Right Side work such as brainstorming a story, laying out page composition, and drawing it's best to tune out of all other media. Like a TV or Radio on.

The Left Side is more susceptible to overthink everything-- so before I start I have to accept what style and story I'm going with before I begin, so I don't have a half-finished project and think " this style sucks " You got to make these decisions beforehand and convince the Left side that this is what you've decided.

Although there are a lot of tasks that require both sides at the same time. Think of the Right side as your creative side that just draws off of imagery in your mind and what you're feeling. I do rough sketches like that being tuned-out and in a zone.

>>1507132
wow, quality post here, thank you for taking time to write all this.

bump

:)

Thoughts on non-photo blue pencils?

>>1510337
I had a red one, it only made my constructions worse.

>>1510337
I use red. It's much easier to delete from photoshop than blue since blue is closer to black than red is.

>>1510337
I use the shit out of my non-photo blue. Especially with my comics. It helps me get the idea down so I can then go in and ink only the lines that I think are necessary.

We need more books about inking and coloring.

>Comic theory
Understanding Comics by Scott McCloud
Making Comics by by Scott McCloud
Comics and Sequential Art by Will Eisner
Graphic Storytelling and Visual Narrative by Will Eisner
A Comic Studies Reader by Various
Reading Comics by Douglas Wolk

>General comic making
The Comic Book Guide For The Artist - Writer - letterer from Charlton Comics
(If you speak spanish) Como Dibujar Historietas by J.M. Parramon and J. Blasco

>Writing
I'll ask /lit/ about this
Writing For Comics by Alan Moore

>Fundamental drawing
Keys To Drawing by Bert Dodson
All books by Loomis

>Pencilling
Dynamic Anatomy by Burne Hogarth
Drawing Comics The Marvel Way by Joe Buscema
Cartooning The Head And The Figure by Jack Hamm
Comic Book Layout and Pencillig by Alvin Lee

>Inking
Rendering in Pen and Ink by Arthur Guptill.


>Coloring
The DC Comics Guide To Coloring And Lettering
Comic Book Coloring by Steve Firchow

>Lettering
The DC Comics Guide To Coloring And Lettering

I always thought comics were an interesting medium. Most series are a single person doing the art and story. It seems like you need to dedicate a balance to learning both storytelling and drawing, and that isn't quite easy. It might be why some comics look beautiful, but the story is lacking, and vice versa. Perhaps while going at it alone is nice, sometimes a collaboration will yield the best results.

hey, would anyone interested in trying to adapt the exercise from making comics for 4chan ? I remember that a lot of them were quite interesting, but they asked for friend interested in comics.

>>1510688
If you have never read understanding Comics, you should do it. it make a good case that comics have it's own way of storytelling beyond writing and art.

>>1503344
/co/ frequently has creator themed and writing threads. If you took this there you wouldn't get a bad reaction and probably a lot of replies.

Just saying.

>>1504230
Whoa, that's cool.
I loved his Joker Graphic Novel.

Bumpin'

>>1497552
>mc cloud
>marvel
Whatever, man.
Personally, writing is everything. Read books on philosophy and classic plays and novels.

>>1517317

>>1497552

Is that real?

Also:

>>1517578
Have you ever pick up a comic? Have you ever pick up a Superman from the 50's?
CURSE IS REAL!!

>>1517644
Gotta love the Silver Age.

gonna bump this while I bookmark, save, torrent and try to contriboot

>>1497573
>Studying from books won't get you very far when it comes to comics
> you should read tons of comics, analyse them, the style, the writing, think about what works and what doesn't.

This is exactly what Warren Ellis advices:

"I'm still learning, all the time. The thing I tell people is that you don't learn how to write comics by reading comics. You learn how to write by reading books. You learn how to write comics by *dissecting* comics. You need to cut into the page and discover exactly what tools the creators employed to attain an effect."

Wow, thanks for that, guys!

>>1525609
You know, I was expecting this thread to 404 so I could make a comics/cartooning thread but then you bumped.
Fuck you.

>>1525770

Just do it, man. People won't notice that one, it has already fallen to page 3. I would like to see people post their own comics.