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/g/ - Technology

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>> No.78508017

>imagine not buying the 5900X
If you buy anything else you're basically scamming yourself.

>> No.78508028

Best estimate how the specs compare to the 5800X (also 8/16) with 3.8 base 4.7 boost?

>> No.78508049

There's no guarantee it will ever exist. 7nm is extremely mature. All their chiplets are high quality now. It's why even the 5600X clocks almost as high as the more expensive models.

>> No.78508054
File: 7 KB, 176x286, download.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

man i cant wait to get the new (hardware name) it has up to 600 gigafarts per nigga shit!! and its going to make (company) lower their prices with a competing (hardware) that will have more giganiggas per shit fart!!!! FOR LESS MONEY

>> No.78508082

You know, Ryzen 1700 already had the specs in greentext. You could've picked some more outstanding features of this CPU. I don't know, does it have high clock speed? Increased IPC? You get the idea.

>> No.78508109

everything is made in china these days. the only things that are being made in USA are niggers, kikes and spics

>> No.78508187

ackshually you shou be gettin 5950X
go big or go home

>> No.78508378

Is this whole 'wait for' meme a intel psyop?

>> No.78508451

I have a 4800h in my laptop. Im fine.

>> No.78508525
File: 28 KB, 750x498, 17EF06C4-30A9-4270-B194-C34C06C98F6D.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

I'm waiting for the Ryzen 5600.

>> No.78508695

I waited half a year for Ryzen 1 in my desktop. then waited again over half a year for 4750u in my new laptop (X13). the wait was worth it.

>> No.78509143

Make cores at TSMC. Make IO die at GloFlo. Have China put the chiplets on the package.

>> No.78509309

I'm getting a 5950x.

>> No.78509337

This is unironically the only correct answer.

>> No.78509532

5600x + RX 6800 is the way I'm going. Realistically I only really game and while having 8 cores would be nice its too long a wait and who knows if prices will ever drop since intel's 10nm seems to be delayed until 2022.

>> No.78510390

>tfw I'm still a Ryzen 1700 chad that got it when people were just starting to debate if AMD would win over Intel

>> No.78510445

Same here, that's why I posted that reply. It still werks (tm).
Did you OC it?

>> No.78510498

I'm actually still on FX-6300 and waiting™ for DDR5. I figured that since it lasted until now, there's really no point going into DDR4 so close to its EOL.

Odd DDR masterrace!

>> No.78510556

>not waiting for 6600x
have fun with that buyers remorse

>> No.78510700

Same, I'll be damned if I spend more than $350 on a 8 core cpu

>> No.78510763

I'd settle for a quadcore with a permanent overclock

>> No.78510829

>One socket for whole DDR5 generation?
And a new mainboard every 2 CPU generations, like with socket 775? Might as well go full Intcel

>> No.78510891

I'll eventually get a 5950X. I hardly use my main rig anymore and haven't had much incentive to upgrade it.

>> No.78510998

Of course they are. They already started with the prices now that they know they have the better product.
People have these delusions involving companies being underdogs.
We will live to see people treating intel like they do AMD now in 6-10 years from now.

>> No.78511006

it'd be nice but I doubt they will, since tons of PCI-E lanes is one of Threadripper's selling points. I'm on a 2600 and I'm waiting for Zen 4 too, but that's mainly so that I'll be able to pick up a 5900X or 5950X on the cheap as they go EOL. Same with video cards, I'll Just Wait™ for whatever comes after Big Noavi in a few years and then buy a 6900XT to replace my Vega 56.

>> No.78511026

>Got 3700x
>See no reason to upgrade until a year passes and the new technologies settle in.
>Implying I'm not going to get a x670 with DDR5 and a 7800XT with a 6950x

>> No.78511114

Will it work on a B450 board assuming i don't care about overclocking?

>> No.78511132

You can google this yourself, don't waste the time of others.

>> No.78511157
File: 10 KB, 244x206, images.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>man i cant wait to get the new (hardware name) it has up to 600 gigafarts per nigga shit!! and its going to make (company) lower their prices with a competing (hardware) that will have more giganiggas per shit fart!!!! FOR LESS MONEY

>> No.78511167

>We will live to see people treating intel like they do AMD now in 6-10 years from now.
For that to happen intel would have to actually be in a bad situation. That is clearly not the case when they remain competetive despite TSMC's manufacturing node superiority.

>> No.78511182

I am buying a laptop with amd ryzen 5. but I don't understand something. In specs is says clock speed 2.1 GHz and 3.7 GHz (boost). What does the boost mean?

>> No.78511214

Basically, for that to happen intel would have to remain on 14nm for said next 6-10 year. People expecting Intel to become the sort of underdog AMD was are severely underestimating how fucked AMD was when they were releasing turds like Bulldozer, and even earlier with Phenom that was literally broken and the improved Phenom II that came way too late to actually matter.

>> No.78511229

Boost is the turbo frequency that the CPU will reach for brief periods when power and thermals allow.

>> No.78511233

Nice digits

>> No.78511333
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>> No.78511338

Considering their latest moves i don't doubt it.
If someone told me back in 2016 that Intel would still be stuck at 14nm until 2021 I wouldn't believe it

>> No.78511436

think i might splurge on the 5900x because they clearly designed it to be the best bang for the buck cpu

>> No.78511496

No, you are. You can literally google "Will B450 work with 5700X" and you will get your answer.
If your question was whether it would work without overclocking specifically, how would anyone know you fucking retard, that chip isnt even released yet.

>> No.78511502


>> No.78511507

Why would I want more than a 5600X if I don't stream/render/edit/etc?

>> No.78511523
File: 9 KB, 208x138, 2020 compooter.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

i hope the old ones get a price cut

>> No.78511558

What kind of shitty bait is this

>> No.78511586

>unless you want to wait another 2-3 years that's a bad idea.
Yeah I know that going into early DDR5 would be bad, but if I waited this long, I can wait until it matures a bit anyway...

>> No.78511597

Future Proofing TM

For 8-10 y/o overclocked Intels having six instead of four cores or having multithreading now makes the difference between still being barely useable and being completely obsolete. 6C6T is still mostly fine, 4C8T is hanging on, 4C4T is dead.

>> No.78511599

>cannot feed 16-cores / 32-threads in streaming algorithms
who cares. if you're using bulldozer in 2020 you can't afford a 5950x so it doesn't matter for you.
either way, isn't most video encoding and compression done on the gpu anyways?

>> No.78511619

you will be using a 10 year old cpu that was garbage when it was new at that point. just spend $300 and upgrade now, then again at the end of ddr5's lifecycle when it's cheap.

>> No.78511621

6900XT or 3080 Super?

>> No.78511787

at that point use a laptop and plug it in to a monitor if you want. why even own a desktop if you don't have any high-performance tasks?

>> No.78511831

depends on what you wanna do with it
if you see yourself playing older stuff, more obscure open source projects, or emulation: go with nvidia
outside of those cases AMD is looking like insane value for money at 1440p

>> No.78511837

Based fellow 1700 Chad, for the anon that didn't OC, I recommend it. Recently brought it up to an easy and stable 3.8 and it flies. Single core perf should be about 2/3rds of the fastest 5k series and multithreaded tasks pretty close to the 5600x. Probably gonna keep it till zen 4 since it seems like it will require new parts anyways.

>> No.78511843

Depends for which application you buy your processor. 8 cores versus 6 is still an increase of 33%. If the per core performance scales up by the rumored 20%, it means that for a task that scales perfectly with multiple cores the 3800x will be faster.

>> No.78511864

the next five years are gonna be turbulent though

>> No.78511896

I am in the position where I am doubting between 3700x or 5600x though. They are practically the same price, so it makes sense to compare the two.

>> No.78511926

5600X. It's kicking the 10700's ass in both single threaded and multi-threaded performance.

>> No.78511949

>upgrading after 8 years instead of 10 to save money on ram is consooming

>> No.78511957

The 5700X is going to be a 4+4 CCD setup to ensure that it doesn't eat into the 5800X's sales.

>> No.78511974

But, muh cores. You can stream using the R7 while have a 10-20% performance hit with the R5.

>> No.78511976

I doubt that we will seeing a 5700x, the new design means that the 5800x is already the leftovers of those chiplets that can't be binned to be used on 5950x. And those that are slight worse than 5800x quality can be used to make 5900x's after laser the two worst cores off.

>> No.78511988

I don't game much, and a lot of applications I regularly use are multithreaded for all cores (Solidworks, Lightroom, Photoshop, Matlab). That is what is making me doubt.

>> No.78512048

We do though.


>> No.78512134
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>not waiting for 7600x

>> No.78512157
File: 1.48 MB, 720x404, 1583604431863.webm [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

5900x or 5950x anons?

Is that price jump worth the cost if I do some production work but it's not something I make money with?

>> No.78512193

What do you do on your computer? If it isnt anything super serious, I dont think you can ever justify spending the extra cash (except if you have the dispensable income of a millionaire and don't care anyways).

>> No.78512214

Fuck. I can see them doing that.

>> No.78512238

I do 2D and 3D work in Blender/Photoshop, and I plan on re-encoding a bunch of videos on my NAS.

>> No.78512263

If you are not seriously restrained on time, I doubt its worth the extra money. Probably that extra money is better spent saving it up for an upgrade to zen 4 later. The leaps between generations are far larger than leaps between models. Especially considering GDDR5 is coming.
Also, re-encoding can be done with GPU acceleration, can't it? Also rendering in blender is best a GPU workload.
5900X would give you more than good enough performance for photoshop going of the puget benchmarks for the 3900X.

>> No.78512294

thats a cute hamster anon

>> No.78512325

>People actually considering the 5950x instead of waiting for the new Threadrippers

>> No.78512353

I mean, it can work as a budget Threadripper. More importantly, you can get it within 72 hours.

>> No.78512368

Where are the 250$ threadrippers?

>> No.78512431

>Thinking about it I might just save the cash and get the 5900x.
I think that is a wise decision. The money spend elsewhere would yield more gains.

>> No.78512527

Futureproofing is getting more cores. If you wanna buy a 5600x, buy a 5700x or 5800x. If you play in higher resolutions the R7 results are good in front of R5. A 1700x/1800x is still fine to play in 1440p, while a 1600 is obsolete.

>> No.78512976

I'm waiting for my 1500x to die.

>> No.78512991
File: 39 KB, 800x422, skeleton-headphone-sitting-computer-medium-shot-wearing-dancing-148651089.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>I'm waiting for my 1500x to die.

>> No.78513001

Shouldn't be long anon. Using a B450 board?

>> No.78513043

I was an early adopter I guess
if not the CPU, the mobo will definitely kick the bucket one of these days, that'll give me enough of an excuse for a new CPU

>> No.78513179

>>8 cores
>>16 threads
>>65W TDP
Oh boy, you mean a 1700?

This isn't new.

>> No.78513264

Is it wise to buy a 5900x over a 5800x for the sake of future proofing? I want to ride out AM4 as long as possible before upgrading to a next-gen socket and DDR5. My intended purpose is gaming and general usage, maybe some emulation.

>> No.78513365

Depends on your usage. Most all gaming due to the PS5/Sex will be optimized for 8c/16t so anything beyond that for the next 5 years will likely just be a nice bonus, but if you do work with video, 3d modeling, virtual machines, etc, etc, the more cores the better, if not though and you're just 'general usage" and games, 8c/16t will do you plenty good for quite a while.

>> No.78513591
File: 80 KB, 1920x1080, 5fAK6z2suUNXHuuPqEuxm7-1920-80.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

No. Moar cores mean nothing until there is a fundamental architectural change in the game engines that necessitate a minimum of 8 cores.

>> No.78513629

They were not.
They are in many ways a 4c/8t system. They use a excavator core that only has 1 FPU for every 2 integer execution cores, its more like a super suped up hyper threading performance wise. But with gaming being so FPU performance driven, they in many ways are just as limited as if they were just a 4c chip.

Also, ZEN2's SMT implementation (also known as hyper threading, but thats just Intel's marketing name) is notably better then Intel's, its about a 25-35% performance boost where Intel's is more like a 15-25%. The excavator cores in the PS4+XBONE didn't have this benifit either.
Genuinely the PS5/Sex have way WAY better CPUs then the prior gens, and it would be in your interest on PC even to get a feature+core equivalent chip.

>> No.78513646

>until there is a fundamental architectural change in the game engines
Which has already been in motion with the new consoles on the horizon. UE4 already scales very much with more cores today.

>> No.78513654

>Most all gaming due to the PS5/Sex will be optimized for 8c/16t
Just because there are more cores doesnt mean they will be more useful, it depends on the workload. A lot of simulation/rendering tasks can easily be split up into similar tasks to be performed in parallel, this is not necessarily the case for games.
Thus I doubt that games will be magically 'optimized' for 8 or more cores.
If it would be possible to optimize a game for multiple cores, most studios probably wouldnt invest the massive amount of time and effort into it to achieve it.

>> No.78513655

You can really game on shit CPUs with a phat GPU. Good to know.

>> No.78513684

>UE4 already scales very much with more cores today.
Do you have any numbers/sources to back that up?

>> No.78513689

while zen 2 is a big improvement, those new consoles are using Renoir (read: laptop Zen) with less cache, not to mention they'll be using GDDR6 as system RAM which has more latency than DDR4 and Zen 2 is very sensitive to RAM latency, so we don't exactly know what's an equivalent, because from the look of it, they aren't exactly using a 3700X, hell they don't even say their Zen 2s hit 4.0GHz, there are laptop Ryzen 4000s that boost to 4.0GHz like the Asus Zephyrus G14

>> No.78513702

I got a 3800X for $170 at a local place last Friday and it's gonna stay in my puter until it dies

>> No.78513706

Where are the $200 5950Xes?

>> No.78513829

Thanks. It's replacing an i5 2320 so I'm pretty stoked. That same place had 16GB of ddr3 laptop ram for $10 a week before so I upgraded my thinkpad too.

>> No.78513838

More than 100fps in games is a meme
MAYBE it matters for competitive gamers, but for 99% of people adaptive sync is perfectly fine.
Just companies pushing people to consooom and the need of people to consoom that pretends this is necessary.

>> No.78513867

I'm getting a 5950x and a RTX3080 some time next decade when they're in stock.

>> No.78513949

At 1080p yeah, but not really at 1440p or higher

>> No.78514117

3300X shits on 1700/1800 now

>> No.78514133


>> No.78514134
File: 52 KB, 403x402, mycpuz.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

no. i have pic related. ill probably see what rocketlake offers since its z490 compat and enable gen 4 on z490. if its lackluster like zen 3 then ill probably skip it and amd until ddr5 platforms come out.

>> No.78514143

What are you? Poor?
Just get the 5900x or 5950x instead of Just Waiting(tm)

>> No.78514201

We're only just now getting to the point where the 2500k could maybe be considered not quite enough. If you want to be future proof, just get a 5600x and spend the difference on more (cheap) ram and a faster video card.

>> No.78514357


>> No.78514532

Why wait 2 months when you can wait for 12 for AM5 and better future proofing?

>> No.78514546
File: 1 KB, 124x128, merchant.gif [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.78514617


It's Just Wait™

>> No.78514630
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>> No.78514640

>gaming consoles having more cores(hardware) than a multi-purpose machine

This is an equivalent of buying a motorbike instead of a car, sure you can go faster, but you can't bring as many friends with you.

Good luck with that.

>> No.78514660
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>> No.78514676

>but you can't bring as many friends with you.
Implying I have friends

>> No.78514744

Fucking rarted

>> No.78514897

im stuck with the 10700k. spent way too much money to switch it all up

>> No.78514950

Yeah I am pretty sure I am going to get it. Pretty much set up a deal to buy it from someone for 325 with cooler, so thats a pretty good price.

>> No.78515413


>> No.78516122

Keep waiting just to buy inferior snot gpu.

>> No.78516163

Im honestly going to stick with my 2600 and 450 board until both melt and I can upgrade to whatever comes out in 5nm 20 years from now.

>> No.78516208
File: 127 KB, 1113x798, mortar.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

either 5700X or 5600X for me, my board is ready (gonna sell the 3100 soon)

>> No.78516423

5700X comes next year, cheaper variant and all that

>> No.78516454
File: 93 KB, 683x623, 1602292628299.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>> No.78516577

Wonder if it will hit 5ghz lul

>> No.78516588
File: 111 KB, 755x718, agcwxCS3aLxobTed.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]


>> No.78516618

Is that...MSI ?!

>> No.78516622

Wonder if they will make a 5700xt to counter whatever crap intcel come out with next yr

>> No.78516969

>MAYBE it matters for competitive gamers
no it doesn't.

>> No.78517228


>> No.78518349


You'll probably wait to see how intel fucks up it's process node again, stupid nigger.

Posted from a Ryzen 7 4800H @ 45w all day err day, stupid nigger.

>> No.78518636

when are the reviews?

>> No.78518858

Why is there a QR Code on a FUCKING CPU?

>> No.78518863

in english god dammit

>> No.78520716

Based. I had a 4670K and upgraded to the 3700X I have now and even that is an amazing leap. That single core performance of the 5000 series is tempting me bad ngl

>> No.78520756

yeah because shouting "CONSOOOOM" at people is really going to give them an epiphany about their purchasing habits

>> No.78520883

a 2500k is shit, stop pushing this meme

>> No.78520925

No, it's a great CPU and will do well for you. I am doubtful it would cause performance issues for 99% of people.

>> No.78521061

I do understand this. It's not about people getting "new" technology, it's about people getting ridiculously excited for a piece of hardware they won't even use 10% of just because they think they will be something else. It's like that kid wearing camo 24/7, or the little annoying shithead shilling ThinkPads because he could take it to an adventure and it could survive (even tho he's never left his desk).
Just pick whatever you NEED, not something stupidly overkill.
>I'm buying an i9 9900k and the $2000 GPU with 128GB and 2TB $500 SSD. Yeah I'll be using it to start streaming Fortnite lol

>> No.78521108


>> No.78521305


>> No.78521480

Bigger milkers are always better, fag

>> No.78521613

You're gay, bigger is better

>> No.78522263

ill probably just buy a 5900x when the next gen releases if i can get it for a good price
otherwise ill just keep my 3600 until it dies

>> No.78522372
File: 65 KB, 740x555, IMG_6212-1-740x555.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

Personally I am going for a 5950X for my dual pc build
Why not go big when you only build a computer every 4 years?

>> No.78522383

>dual pc build

>> No.78522391

>Why not go big when you only build a computer every 4 years?

Because it's a waste of money. I build a PC every 6-7 years.

>> No.78522396
File: 86 KB, 418x494, E4.png [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>mobile 1185G7 beats 10900K by 10% despite a 10% clock disadvantage

That's the same arch they backported to 14nm for cucked lake on desktop, right? So Intel will likely slightly exceed Zen3 in single core perf a few months later, but still have less cores, and we'll have pretty much the same status quo as now with 10-series vs Zen2.

>> No.78522527

you must have some good luck with hardware, My 6th gen i7 from 16 is shitting the bed and so was my 2nd gen i7 machine

>> No.78522586

>have b450 with 2600x
>figured id get maybe 3700x or 5600x
>5600x news, bios for support on b450 might come out on january (might, not sure if asrock will bother with b450 mobos).
>otherwise have to get whole new mobo for 5600x, and DDR5 is around the corner as well as AM5 makin this a dead end mobo for one cpu
>price of 5600x will likely be same as 3700x here

decisions, decisions...

>> No.78522594

5950X is literally MORE than enough for gaming+streaming on the same PC.

>> No.78522617

Look at the top of the chart.

>> No.78522671

I haven't overclocked this 6800K
It hitches and bluescreens constantly
Ram checks out good, drive checks out good, gpu checks out good (and it bluescreens with onboard gfx)

>> No.78522791

>130W for fucking 4 cores
>no avx2
You must really enjoy them 0.1 dips

>> No.78522801

I really do not care about gaming that much, and even then I dont care if its over 40fps
If I game I enjoy games, I dont worry about 0.1 dips, the enjoyment comes from the game, not mindlessly consooooooooming

>> No.78522829

>I really do not care about gaming that much
I mean even Pentium 4 is enough for shitposting on mongolian imageboards but come on

>> No.78522845

>1185G7 @ 4.8 GHz = 598

assuming rocket lake has same IPC as nigger lake and reaches the same frequencies as vomit lake
>11900K @ 5.3 GHz = (598/4.8*5.3) = 660, enough to put it at the top of the chart

>> No.78522897

jesus fuck

>> No.78522989

That's why they're putting them in Macbooks and iMacs next year.
>Intel and AMD are so far behind that it's better to put iPhone CPUs in laptops and desktops

>> No.78523021

Hey at least my heating bill is a bit lower than usual

>> No.78523047

We don't talk about that (but yes, substantially higher)

>> No.78523050
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yall really arguing with this idiot

>> No.78523091

Amd still on 7nm TSMC

>> No.78523106
File: 67 KB, 686x484, kek.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>from intel housefire to intel housefire

>> No.78523157

Let's see how many fps apple chips can get at gayming compared to AMD

>> No.78523164

>700+$ CPU vs 345$ CPU
No shit sherlock. Better compare it to something worth comparing.

Also, I don't really understand what you are arguing? That modern CPUs perform better than 10 year old ones? Yes they do, but the performance gap per thread really isn't as bad as most people pretend it is. Old CPUs arent suddenly unusable you consoomer.

>> No.78523165

Just gonna ignore this aren't you?

>> No.78523175

See >>78523164

>> No.78523177 [DELETED] 

Oh yeah zen3 is literally 2 days away lmao intel is even more fucked

>> No.78523180

you only run single threaded tasks?
That chip is effectively 64x as powerful
that's what im saying.

>> No.78523407

11900K @ 5.3 GHz
those poor melted VRMs

>> No.78524473

Even bigger housefires, let's see if they can go for 400W desktop cpus

>> No.78525113
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>> No.78525289

Depends on the availability, price and release date of the 5700X. I think a discounted 3700x/3800x will be much more tempting considering the most demanding thing I do is gaym. Even a 3600 would be more than enough for years to come unlike I play on a 240hz+ monitor maybe.

>> No.78525614

Intel has claimed around 20% increase in IPC, which is not even remotely believable. If they actually achieve that though, I'm gonna be damn impressed.

>> No.78525914

Their statement is double digits increase in ipc, so in could be 10% or even 99%

>> No.78525964

>Intel has claimed

>> No.78526060

Just checked, you're right, misremembered that. 10% would be believable at least, still doubt they'll be able to do it. It's still 14nm.

>> No.78526103

They'll just make even bigger dies for that 10% better ipc but with even bigger housefires.

>> No.78526382

6900xt looks promising, but wait for reviews.

>> No.78526404

Not if that means needing three dies instead of two.

>> No.78526426

The motherboard might be getting on, but CPUs are basically immortal unless you overclock heavily.

>> No.78526431

This me2.
Except I'm waiting for until ddr5 is good which will probably come with pcie 5.0 which I am also waiting for

>> No.78526438

This is the price for performance.
Just like the 500W RTX 3090
300W CPU and 500W GPU, 2020 the year of Intel and Nvidia housefires (for real this time).

>> No.78526450

fucking based

>> No.78526621

I remember years ago that people said that ryzen would make 8+ cores mainstream, yet most people are still using 6 core ryzen cpus, which cost in some cases almost as much as the 5820k did years ago, the only advantage being that now you don't need enthusiast motherboards.

>> No.78527321
File: 19 KB, 516x176, 1604431574816.jpg [View same] [iqdb] [saucenao] [google] [report]

>> No.78527383

>65W TDP

I'd buy it.

Don't do this to me, AMD.

>> No.78527523

>thinks AMD won't go full Tel Aviv next gen
Literally already have this gen. No reason to charge more for a 5600X than the current fucking price of the 3800XT and yet they have. The 5800X is pushing to the 3900XT price and the 5950X is already fondling the balls of Threadripper.
That's without going into the GPU prices.
I don't think people understand AMD was only being "competitive" when they were the underdog. Now they are going to outprice Intel. If Intel is smart, they'll price the CPUs at AMDs prices last gen and laugh.

>> No.78527531

based. fuck the orcs, skaven, and foreign invaders

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