/fa/ - Fashion

[Anonymous No.8243425]

Knockoff thread

Does anyone know how to sign up on Taobao without a Chinese phone number? I found some dope Y-3 shirts for $4.

Post other good knockoff finds!

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.191.NPlNEd&id=38758045177

[Anonymous No.8243459]

bump

[Anonymous No.8243464]

I want fakefags to leave /fa/

[Anonymous No.8243465]

Those qasas for 80 bucks don't seem bad

[Meloetta No.8243468]

>>8243464
I don't

[Anonymous No.8243470]

>>8243425
>>8243459
/cgl/ have a taobao-buying-guide
http://pastebin.com/B2KSFQUM

[Anonymous No.8243483]

>>8243470
Oh damn no wonder all these fake tees are so cheap

So am I fucked then if I want to buy from taobao? What are some other good sites for fake fashion?

I don't want those shoes or anything, I just basically want t-shirts with expensive brand logos on them.

[Anonymous No.8243504]

>>8243468
Why? They bring the quality of the board down.

[Anonymous No.8243508]

>>8243504
>the quality of the board

are you that deluded?

[Anonymous No.8243522]

>>8243464
this pls

dont support fakes

why would you even want to be fake or have something that is fake

fucking fakers

[Anonymous No.8243544]

>>8243522
why do you care if they are real?

not OP or anyone else in this thread

[Anonymous No.8243547]

>>8243508
God people like you need to leave this board.

[Anonymous No.8243562]

>>8243544
You are trying to imitate expensive brands with your pathetic fakes because you don't have the money to buy the real deal or the confidence to buy reasonably priced clothing that you look good in. Fuck off, you are everything wrong with this board.

[Anonymous No.8243582]

>>8243544
Most fakes are lower quality and ruin the point of buying high end designer stuff, and thus are often worn by people who don't really dress well in the first place and don't care about quality of clothing and just want the label name

Also they take money away from designers and give it to Chinese gangs

[Anonymous No.8243587]

>>8243562
>>8243582
this

[Anonymous No.8243588]

>>8243547
that's not how it works

>>8243562
I have a ton of reasonably priced clothing, and it is fine

I just want some nice things with designer logos etc.

[Anonymous No.8243589]

>>8243562
>You are trying to imitate expensive brands with your pathetic fakes

Didn't I already mention I wasn't OP or anyone else? I don't buy fakes nor do I care about fakes, I was just posing a question because I wanted to see if your apparent passion was backed up with some sense of logic.

>you don't have the money to buy the real deal or the confidence to buy reasonably priced clothing that you look good in

Either you're really good at psychoanalyzing people based off two lines of text on anonymous imageboard
ooooorrrrr
you're projecting.

Personally I don't understand why people buy fakes or why people care if other people buy fakes but it does seem that the latter group seems to be the less sensible of the two.

[Anonymous No.8243595]

>>8243582
yup I just want the label name

now please tell me where to get knockoff tees

[Anonymous No.8243601]

>>8243589
damn I was thinking of how to wreck that guy but you did a fine job

how did you learn to argue that well?

[Anonymous No.8243603]

>>8243589
>Personally I don't understand why people buy fakes or why people care if other people buy fakes but it does seem that the latter group seems to be the less sensible of the two.

On an aesthetic level it looks bad and is generally worn by people who only care about a screenprinted logo and don't actually know about fashion or the quality of garments

On an ethical level buying fakes supports not only people taking money away from artists who design the clothes, but also supports what is essentially slave labor in China and organized gangs that engage in human trafficking, animal poaching, fraud and drug smuggling

[Anonymous No.8243621]

>>8243603
all hail the truth

[Anonymous No.8243630]

>>8243603
the quality doesn't matter to the average person looking at it

ethically how do u know?

just tell me where to buy a y-3 tee thanks

[Anonymous No.8243641]

bump

[Anonymous No.8243642]

>>8243582
Do you respect a person who owns a real Van Gogh the same amount as one who owns a copy of it? Although they may look similar from far, the details reveal the differences in looks, and there are many mores differences in the materials, as well as the thought put into both. I know historic art pieces are not great analogies to designer clothing, but I hope you understand my point.

[Anonymous No.8243646]

>>8243642
Oops, I replied to the wrong post...

[Anonymous No.8243651]

>>8243603
Also the fact that most fakes are either made out of dogs that are skinned/boiled alive, or pleather

[Anonymous No.8243661]

>>8243630
>the quality doesn't matter to the average person looking at it

The label doesn't matter to the average person looking at it either,the point is that most people such as yourself who don't give one fuck about the fashion industry probably can't put an outfit together that even looks good in the first place. Anyone who has actually been in a Y-3 store and knows the quality of the brand will be able to tell the difference.

>ethically how do u know?

It's pretty well documented how fakes are made, by whom, and the effects they have on the industry

http://fakesareneverinfashion.org/criminal-activity

http://www.unodc.org/toc/en/crimes/counterfeit-goods.html

http://www.interpol.int/Crime-areas/Trafficking-in-illicit-goods-and-counterfeiting/Trafficking-in-illicit-goods-and-counterfeiting

>>8243642
>Do you respect a person who owns a real Van Gogh the same amount as one who owns a copy of it?

Reproductions of Van Gogh paintings don't take money away from Van Gogh or any legitimate industry, and they aren't made by organized crime

[Anonymous No.8243663]

>>8243603
Oh I can see some sense in it now, despite the inplausibility of each purchase of a fake being monetary support for "chinese gangs" and human trafficking. I'm not informed on the issue but I'd imagine that fakes are made in a factory like any other export from china.

Regardless
>>8243562
is still batshit

[Anonymous No.8243670]

>>8243663
>inplausibility of each purchase of a fake being monetary support for "chinese gangs" and human trafficking

http://fakesareneverinfashion.org/criminal-activity

One report states that NATO emphasized the involvement of organized criminal gangs in violating intellectual property rights. According to Iain Grant of the International Federation of the Phonographic Industry (IFPI), organized criminal gangs are involved in 65 to 70% of piracy cases.

[Anonymous No.8243676]

>>8243663
>I'd imagine that fakes are made in a factory like any other export from china.

Many are but they are exported illegally, and that illegal trade is a major source of income for the Chinese triads which also engage in the other activities I mentioned

[Anonymous No.8243678]

>>8243562
>>8243464

>Wears plebcore brands like uniqlo, hm
>"kek anon wata poorfag i recommend Rick Owens"

>Full tricky ricky/goof
>"whata fuccboi 6'2" model draped in Ann D"

>Buys fakes
>"omg fakes anon if u can't afford just buy from Uniqlo or H&M"

The endless cycle of /fa/
I don't even support fakes, but c'mon lads

[Anonymous No.8243680]

>>8243642
yes i respect him because i, look almost everyone in the world wouldn't be able to tell the difference

a lot of thought was put into the shirt with Y-3 in the corner

>>8243661
nice post, you genuinely kinda swayed my thinking

but i still want a knockoff y-3 tee, can you help me not want one?

[Anonymous No.8243690]

>>8243642
I don't know anyone who owns a Van Gogh and I wouldn't be able to identify the real deal if the original and fake were placed in front of me. I also, like 90% of people, don't have an appreciation for Van Goghs or know about him or what he represents in reference to art beyond the fact that hes famous and his paintings cost a lot.

In fact, I don't think I would respect either person because owning a Van Gogh for the sake of saying "I can afford to drop 500k on a painting to hang on my summerhouse" isn't something I respect.

I CAN however, understand a working mother not dropping 3000 dollars for an LV leather bag and spending 20 for a knockoff so she can look nice or feel pretty.

[Anonymous No.8243695]

>>8243680
Can I ask why you specifically want a Y-3 t-shirt in the first place? Never even thought of Yohji for tees

[Anonymous No.8243707]

>>8243695
I just like the way the Y-3 looks in the corner

I have a lot of normal 1 color tees, so I thought a nice fake Y-3 would fit in

I have everything to match it too

[Anonymous No.8243716]

bump, yeah i still want that tee

[Anonymous No.8243722]

>>8243670
I'm >>8243663
and I think a website by the name of "Fakes are never in fashion" may not be a credible source of information.

http://www.interpol.int/Crime-areas/Trafficking-in-illicit-goods-and-counterfeiting/Trafficking-in-illicit-goods-and-counterfeiting%3E%3E8243642

isn't linked to anything.


http://www.unodc.org/toc/en/crimes/counterfeit-goods.html

refers to clothing ("and what you wear...") only once. The main arguments against counterfeits are against counterfeit drugs and foods (aka fake noodles made from plastic)

You haven't proven to me that Chinese gangs are responsible for fakes yet.

[Anonymous No.8243724]

>>8243707
Sorry, "nice fake" got a smirk from me. Idk man, I mean sure you get the logo but the fake tee will have a shithouse fit to it, plus the material would be gross. I'm sure it seems really tempting given how cheap it is, but it would end up being that one shirt you never wear

[Anonymous No.8243736]

>>8243724
you can't really be sure though. there is a chance that the company makes nice fitting tees and for $5 that is a chance I am willing to take

50/50 i will never wear it again I think

Also one of my buddies has a y-3 jacket that destroyed his bank account, so I thought it would be hilarious to wear around him

[Anonymous No.8243745]

>>8243736
>nice fitting tee
>$5
My sides have just left the universe

[Anonymous No.8243747]

yolo y-3 fakes

[Anonymous No.8243750]

>>8243745
it is a chance m8 i have a $3 tee that fits fine

[Anonymous No.8243754]

>>8243724
Fair enough man, I mean why are we arguing about whether $5 is a good cop. I guess for ripping out your buddy alone it's worth it. Also one of the nicest tees I've ever bought cost me 10NZD, so strange things can happen

[Anonymous No.8243755]

>>8243678
you're missing some very key points here dog

one- /fa/ is not one single person, you can't dismiss "his" argument based on something he said earlier. This isn't something we should have to explain, trying to manifest an ideal embodiment of /fa/ through it's individual mentalities is autistic as all hell

two- if you can't afford expensive things, then you also can not pull them off, or live in a region, physical or social, where it's appropriate to dress expensively.

you are either an idiotic hobbyless boy/manchild, or a socially unadjusted and fashionably disoriented person with a poor scope of influences dictating your wardrobe.

I'm poor too. I don't buy fakes, I save up or I find something that is *Simple* because Simple things don't need to look expensive, and they don't look cheap because simplicity is often inherently cheap, unlike fakes which look cheap because they are needlessly complicated compared to a real running shoe, and a poorly designed counterpart of the real thing.

just Stop emulating.

[Anonymous No.8243757]

>>8243754
meant to be for >>8243736

[Anonymous No.8243764]

What does /fa/ think of knockoffs that are higher quality than the original? Whenever we have knockoff threads they are always about pleather geos and yeezys.

[Anonymous No.8243778]

>>8243755
Like I said, I don't even support fakes. I feel like you're preaching to the wrong person here, friend. I just think that the general culture of /fa/ is super circle jerky, but you're right, can't consider the views of individuals as a whole.

[Anonymous No.8243780]

>>8243764
hender scheme takes classic shoe models and remakes them in raw leather. How is that a knockoff? It's not a knockoff because it's not pretending to be the original.

[Anonymous No.8243795]

>>8243764
Which New Balance model is this made from?

[Anonymous No.8243801]

>>8243780
I wasn't dissing hender for doing it, in fact I love what he does with classic designs. I was trying to spark a discussion about when something is a knockoff versus a reimagining or a reproduction.

[Anonymous No.8243816]

>>8243678
Buy used, shop around, wait for sales. Be smart basically. I'm sure a decent percentage of /fa/ doesn't just buy direct from Tricky Ricky's store.

[Anonymous No.8243875]

>>8243722
http://traccc.gmu.edu/pdfs/student_research/Chinese%20OC%20Kafchinski.pdf

here you go

last slide for academic sources

[Anonymous No.8243893]

Heheh funny to see a thread like this. My uncle used to sell counterfeit goods in San Francisco. He would buy tags from shady European guys and then sew them onto shirts and stuff himself.

He is moving to Taiwan or maybe Shanghai so he can make more connections and ship stuff to the states. He said he went to a factory once that had like 6 year old kids and the managers all wore masks, it was fucked up.

Kinda sad that he helped support me with that money, but he obviously doesn't care since he is still going.

[Anonymous No.8245897]

>>8243893
>implying it isn't the same shit in the factories that make the real ones

it's the 3rd world nigga, what did you expect???

[Anonymous No.8245919]

>>8245897
yeah but it's not so there' that i guess

[Anonymous No.8245963]

>>8245919
>yeah but it's not
source?

if you're buying products that are made in China with the idea that the multinational's companies' factories are places of sunshine and lollipop then you're extremely naiive. these people are exploited either way, that's just how the world works.

[Anonymous No.8246192]

If the fashion companies could sell you a knockoff at the same inflated price that they sell their real stuff, they would do it in a heartbeat. If you think a pair of sneakers with slightly better materials and the real Rick Owens©™ Black & Ivory Geobasket™ Sneakers tags are almost 30 times the value of the knockoffs ($40 vs $1200) then you truly have more money than sense.

>>8243562
>muh authenticity
dirty hipster

>>8243582
> ruin the point of buying high end designer stuff
if the point is to get a higher quality material for yourself, then sure. but most people just want to look good, and if fakes look good, then they are good.

>thus are often worn by people who don't really dress well in the first place
stawman :)

>just want the label name
that's just as true of plebs who buy the real thing too.

>>8243603
> taking money away from artists who design the clothes
oh I'm sure Rick and Raf are doing just fine without my money

>>8243755
>you are either an idiotic hobbyless boy/manchild, or a socially unadjusted and fashionably disoriented person with a poor scope of influences dictating your wardrobe.
where do you think we are?

>just Stop emulating.
I suppose you don't copy music or tv shows either?

[Mifune No.8248562]

>>8243464
Agreed.

FYI, you can never trust the photos. They usually have photos of real items. Fakes rarely end up looking like the real thing.

I've said this so so many times, if you wear fakes it's simple as this.

People who know what you're wearing will know you're wearing fakes, people who don't won't give a fuck.

What's the point?

[trunks (certified male model) !!SE08Bv/gZZR No.8248570]

>>8248562
"i just like the design of this malformed made in china chunk of pleather ok???"

[Anonymous No.8248582]

>>8243425
Damn son I copped some real Y3's from a vintage store and they weren't even used and the costed $30

l2shoparound

[Anonymous No.8248863]

>>8248570
God trunks if I saw you in real life i would legit be tempted to kick your ass. You are such a faggot holy shit

[Anonymous No.8248919]

>>8248863
>implying you aren't a NEET manlet

[i tripped so im relevant No.8248957]

>>8248919
doesn't mean i wont fuck his shit up m8

[Anonymous No.8249018]

In the qasa's case idk why I wouldn't buy fakes since they're not available. If there is a demand but no offer what do you expect ?

[Anonymous No.8249590]

>Been overcame with qasalust
>Sold out everywhere
>See these

[Anonymous No.8249686]

>>8249590
if you cop are gonna make a review ? :3

[Anonymous No.8250059]

I'd buy real ones , if I could find some in my size.
I have dreamboxes which don't look as good as the real thing, but they still look good as shoes and I get complements on them.
When people ask me about them I say they're fakes, I don't wear them to pretend I'm wearing a famous brand.

[Anonymous No.8250083]

it's not about the quality, its about the shame of buying fake

u guys are dirt

[Anonymous No.8250096]

>>8243425
>tfw remember they was on sale in Y3 store in normal sizes at $250 but I was broken.

[Anonymous No.8250104]

>>8250083
Don't really give a shit.
If it looks decent I'll wear it. Fuck having a 1k on my feet where I'm stepping in shit and shit.

You guys want to wear your real ones and judge me? be my guest, its just too bad that nobody in real life would see anything other than black and white af1 looking trainers.

[Anonymous No.8250180]

>>8250104
you'll know theyre fake, enjoy living with the shame

[Anonymous No.8250402]

>>8250180
They're cheap shoes. The shame keeps me up at night.

[Anonymous No.8250433]

Real or fake without image searching.

[Anonymous No.8250455]

>>8243483

Ali Express

[Anonymous No.8250464]

>>8243707

Here:

http://item.taobao.com/item.htm?spm=a230r.1.14.5.03U83W&id=21274259277

[Anonymous No.8250507]

>>8250433
Fake, the white stripe-thing hits the sole at a wrong place

[Anonymous No.8250531]

>>8250507
And you'd pay and extra £600 for it to hit in the right place?

[Anonymous No.8250651]

http://www.aliexpress.com/wholesale?SearchText=Concepts+C-NOTE&catId=0&initiative_id=SB_20140519122538
>$80 C-Notes fuck yeah
>All those listings that are exactly the same

[Anonymous No.8250723]

>>8243661

>People such as yourself who don't give one fuck about the fashion industry probably can't put an outfit together that even looks good in the first place.

How could you type this sentence and not feel stupidity leaking out?

Consider the implications of this statement. Consider the breaks in logical continuity.

You are... truly an unintelligent, emotional person. I recommend you try taking a walk outside.

Also, I'll just remind you that Ricky used to make fakes. ( ͡~ ͜ʖ ͡°)

P.S. To everybody who is actively against fakes: how much of the music and movies on your computer did you pay for?

[Anonymous No.8250742]

>>8243745

If you believe that you cannot find a well-fitting tee shirt for $5 or less, you are suffering from a perspective rooted in elitism and inadequacy and I want to feel angry at you, but I just kind of have to feel a little sad for you.

[Anonymous No.8250761]

>>8246192

F U C C I N

R E K T

[Anonymous No.8251021]

>>8246192
Probably the main reason that fakes are a bad idea is that it really betrays the buyer's lack of taste and aesthetic judgement.

I can look at some fake geobaskets and instantly see that they look like shit. The design itself is adulterated and the quality of materials/construction is shit.

You look at some fake geobaskets and think "dope i get the rick owens shoes for $50!".

If you buy and wear fakes you have bad taste and you're probably doing it just because you see a shitty copy of something expensive and famous.

I invite you to post a fit pic of you wearing your knockoff clothing to prove me wrong.

[Anonymous No.8251051]

>>8250433
fake. wrong boot length, toe curve, and the ribbing at the back of the shoe is curved, not squared.

[Anonymous No.8251072]

>>8250433

fake. look at the rib detailing.

[Anonymous No.8251097]

>>8250507
I don't think that's a reliable method.

The curve on the rear of the sole is the easiest way to distinguish between real and fakes.

[Anonymous No.8251150]

let's be honest, all the fuccbois who are against fakes don't buy their clothes for the quality, they buy it so they can say LOOK AT ME IM WEARING RICK OWENS!!!

so they get mad at all the people who are doing the exact same for a fraction of the price

[Anonymous No.8251163]

>>8251150
>all the fuccbois
Yeah, but there are plenty of other people who are against fakes for any number of other reasons.

[Anonymous No.8251165]

>>8243522

>muh quality

[Anonymous No.8251355]

"A good artist copies, a great artist steals".

-Martin Luther King JR.

[Anonymous No.8253274]

>>8251021
>I can look at some fake geobaskets and instantly see that they look like shit
I didn't know that small things like the shape of the rear of the sole are so important to you! :^)

>You look at some fake geobaskets and think "dope i get the rick owens shoes for $50!".
No, I look at them and think "I could save £600 and it would still look good to everyone except autistic fuccbois who would rather play spot the difference than judge the quality of a fit on it's own merits, i.e does it look good or not?"

>post a fit pic of you wearing your knockoff clothing to prove me wrong.
I don't have any replicas yet (there are some mono black high tops in the mail)

>>8251355
“Ah, good taste! What a dreadful thing! Taste is the enemy of creativeness.”
-Rosa Parks

[Anonymous No.8253954]

>muh silhouette!
yfw the geo silhouette is usually determined by the size of the shoe, bigger sizes don't look as good. Only the really cheap fakes have the shitty toebox.
Face it, for a fraction of the actual price, they look great. Fags here just get pissed off that people can get the same shoes that they have for next to nothing
>b-but those guys can't pull it off because if you can't spend tha tmuch on shoes then you don't know how to wear them hur
Fuck off, 99.9% of the people on this board who have real geos cant even pull them off.

[aiouh !!2EBwZerKFLu No.8253962]

>>8253954
>>8253274
it just comes off as scummy as hell

in the end its up to you whether your self worth is worth aping something you're not with a counterfeit

[Anonymous No.8254005]

>>8251355
"Y-you too".
Yoshi Yamapolo.

[Anonymous No.8254023]

>>8253962
fucking hell

[Anonymous No.8254048]

>>8253962
>>8254023

[Anonymous No.8254050]

not fashion
>>>/b/

[Anonymous No.8254053]

>>8254050
>Shoes
>Not fashion

[Anonymous No.8254058]

>>8254053
>fake shoes
>fashion

[Anonymous No.8254093]

Y-3 goes on sale all of the fucking time anyway, sign up for their mailing list and wait a month and I guarantee you'll have gotten a 30% off code. There is no good reason to buy fakes, I have more respect for someone in nothing but H&M clothes who maybe copped one designer piece secondhand than I do for anyone who wears fakes, even if they look okay.

[Anonymous No.8254100]

>>8254093
lmao
try buying qasas on sale

[Anonymous No.8254124]

>>8254100
try buying qasas

ftfy

[Anonymous No.8254186]

>>8253962
I'll agree that those are particularly shite, but that looks wrong for so many reasons.
Did you see that fat kid that posted a few days ago wearing nothing but genuine rick owens.
Looked equally cringeworthy.

[Anonymous No.8254240]

>>8250433
Lol i saw these exact ones sell for £400 on ebay. I even messaged the seller saying 'dreamboxes?' And he replied with 'yes'

[Anonymous No.8254246]

>>8250433
they look fake as fuck. real ones dont look like that
prolly feel different, too
my real ones are quite heavy

[Anonymous No.8254312]

>>8250433
>mfw these are real and you have all been had.

[Anonymous No.8254340]

>>8254312
yeah they actually look pretty real.
post a pic of dreamboxes for comparism pls

[Anonymous No.8254396]

>>8254093
I know H&M has shit quality but as a general rule a good fit is a good fit, don't hate because they're wearing a brand you don't like

[Anonymous No.8256749]

I actually was wondering, how one pull off qasas aside from techwear ?

[Anonymous No.8258118]

Just copped, obviously not amazing but for a 16th of the price I'm happy.
Silhouette is decent.
Couple problems I have are the feel of the material; kind of rubbery (but looks okay) and the thin feeling sole.

[Anonymous No.8258130]

>>8258118

[/fa/scist faggot !!ovdI0id3NeK No.8258132]

>>8258130

That leather makes me so sad.

[Anonymous No.8258179]

>>8258132

>That plebther makes me so sad

fixed it for you

[Anonymous No.8258181]

>>8258118
actually not bad

[Anonymous No.8258200]

>>8258130
that leather looks like my sofa

[Anonymous No.8258210]

>>8243642
For me it's more about the look.
Someone looks good, I could care less if what they're wearing cost them 3800 or 3.80. The kids who sit around only talking about price tags aren't really /fa/.

[Anonymous No.8258220]

I had vans sk8 highs and surpass both i grew tired of didn't know what else to get so copped these. I didn't really like anything else sneaker high top wise.

[Anonymous No.8258236]

>there are people on /fa/ who will exploit little Chinese children for a hunk of pleather and try to justify it

:(

[Anonymous No.8258243]

>>8258210
Fakes look like shit though, if you can't afford designer buy something cheaper or go to a thrift store or something. I mean look at the post right after yours those shoes look awful

[aiouh !!2EBwZerKFLu No.8258244]

>>8258210
but the fakes dont look like the real thing at all

[Anonymous No.8258245]

>>8258236
You do know nike reebok and Adidas all use sweatshops too right? At least that's what I've been told.

Also. And this is a serious question, are the children forced to work there as slaves or or do they volunteer because they are poor?

[aiouh !!2EBwZerKFLu No.8258251]

>>8258245
they're a slave to poverty

[Anonymous No.8258252]

>>8243483
ioffer

[Anonymous No.8258256]

>>8258245
>there are people on /fa/ that wear Nike adidas and reebok

Double :(

[Anonymous No.8258258]

>>8258251

So they are not there by force and their only resource of income to eat is this job? Why should I feel bad again?

[Anonymous No.8258265]

>>8258236
>buying real ricks and exploiting little italian children for a hunk of leather and trying to justify it.

[aiouh !!2EBwZerKFLu No.8258268]

>>8258258
if the demand for shitty clothes didn't exist, the use of kids in labor would be financially unviable as other jobs are too hard for kids to do

don't be part of the cycle

just because everyone pees in the river everyone drinks from doesnt mean you have to do it too

either way, who gives a shit really.
little kids are just easy to feel sorry for w/e

[Anonymous No.8258295]

>>8258268
So you admit the job isn't hard for kids to do? And I don't think making clothes sounds that dangerous.

So if this demand for clothes didn't exist how would these workers get the income needed to help provide income? Would they just starve?